A modest proposal...

Barrie Davis · Jun 20, 2005

prefect41 said:
How's it hold up?

I understand that its an "artificial" language and is fairly widely
used, but that's about it.

Not exactly "artificial". You could say that it is based on the 'mother' language upon which most European languages are based, and is therefore just another of the family of languages that is Indo-european -- they go all the way back to Sanscrit.

So whilst it is new [1880s] its origins are just as ancient as any other contemporary language.

Not widely used I'm afraid, just another one of those good ideas for which the time was never right. There is currently an increasing interest being shown internationally, but Esperanto has its ups and downs it seems -- Maybe it's going through an 'up' ???

prefect41 said:
Do you use it often? Would you recommend it?

No, it hardly ever comes up -- your enquiry was exceptional.

As a language Esperanto has a lot to commend it, since its being absolutely consistent in spelling, grammar and pronunciation makes it very easy to learn -- it also sounds rather nice, a bit like Italian with a slight Czech accent!.

I would recommend it as an introduction to foreign languages as a whole, possibly making multiple additional languages easier to learn. Certainly I feel the construction of my OWN language is clearer to me, now that I have some Esperanto insight.

prefect41 said:
Would it make a good "metric equivalent" language?

I suppose it would!!

It was originally proposed as a second language for everybody to learn, simply as a means of communication with a reduced chance of misunderstanding, and no political or economic baggage attached. It was never meant to replace national languages......

The world, however seems to be increasingly English speaking as far as I can see -- If it was a logical world, then Esperanto, which is entirely logical, would have prevailed by now.

Hmmmm.....

I wonder if the people of Friesland (North Germany and Denmark) could have foretold that THEIR language would grow into a Lingua Franka used across the globe 1500 years in the future..... {here I refer to the roots of English}

Esperanto had a better pedigree, but that didn't help did it?

PS. I learned Esperanto for a couple of years, but I did NOT buy Betamax!
;-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto

Thanks for your interest.

Regards,
Baz

my wong · Jun 20, 2005

stephenmelvin said:
Well, we're a lot that doesn't tend to jump at new things when the
old things work just fine. It's served us well overall.

A pet peeve of mine is how difficult it is to change a lightbulb and especially getting those light fixture covers off without everything crashing on you.

The attitude portrayed above is perhaps why we still screw in lightbulbs instead of using the "bayonet mount" (simple, effortless, one handed) and still use small rusted screws to hold light covers in place.... Perhaps that explains a bit why we get quickly left behind by progress???

Ted B.47613 · Jun 20, 2005

--

We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution is designed only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for any other.
John Adams (1735 - 1826)

TJB

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stephenmelvin · Jun 20, 2005

Barrie Davis said:
I wonder if the people of Friesland (North Germany and Denmark)
could have foretold that THEIR language would grow into a Lingua
Franka used across the globe 1500 years in the future..... {here I
refer to the roots of English}

Ironic that the phrase "lingua Franca," which means "French language" is used to refer to English.

Also English, like most other European languages, traces its roots back to Latin. My French teacher used to complain about how "those Germans" came 'round and messed up the orderly Latin language.

Of course, my original post wasn't suggesting we replace all the languages of the world with Korean, only that the Korean alphabet is more logical and consistent in use than the latin languages. And it makes every bit as much sense as having Americans change to the "A" series of paper sizes.

Barrie Davis said:
Esperanto had a better pedigree, but that didn't help did it?

PS. I learned Esperanto for a couple of years, but I did NOT buy
Betamax!
;-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto

Thanks for your interest.

Regards,
Baz
--

Jan Moren · Jun 20, 2005

stephenmelvin said:
stephenmelvin said:

I wonder if the people of Friesland (North Germany and Denmark)
could have foretold that THEIR language would grow into a Lingua
Franka used across the globe 1500 years in the future..... {here I
refer to the roots of English}

Click to expand...

Ironic that the phrase "lingua Franca," which means "French
language" is used to refer to English.

Actually a borrowed meaning. "Lingua Franca" originally refers to diplomatic language, which was, and still largely is, French. The expression has subsequently been borrowed to express the nalogous concept in other fields. Not so strange, in other words.

stephenmelvin said:
Of course, my original post wasn't suggesting we replace all the
languages of the world with Korean, only that the Korean alphabet
is more logical and consistent in use than the latin languages. And
it makes every bit as much sense as having Americans change to the
"A" series of paper sizes.

Again, either system is basically fine; you can use imperial or ISO and be happy and productive either way. The benefits of ISO aren't by themselves enough to switch. The big benefit comes from eveybody using the same standard, since it reduces problems, annoyances and niggling issues for everybody - but most for the minority users, of course.

You switch or you don't - either way it's you who suffer most.

--
http://lucs.lu.se/people/jan.moren/log/current.html

rb49 · Jun 20, 2005

In English "ghoti" is pronounced "fish"

"gh" as in the word "tough"
"o" as in "women"
"ti" as in "nation"

It's an old joke but speaks volumes about the seeming inconsistencies in written English as well as the stumbling blocks they pose for anyone learning ESL.

As far as units of linear measure. How about the cubit? Oh, I know, RB... go ghoti!!

rb49

jmgraumann · Jun 20, 2005

Aargh, I HATE bayonnet fittings for lightbulbs!
Yes, they're quick to put it...
...If the bayonnet pins arn't bent, if the fitting would stop wobbling, if.....

I've used both fittings extensively, and at the end of the day it all comes down to personal preference, but I avoid bayonnet fittings like the plague.
On the other hand, I like the A paper sizes, having used them all my life.

Don't get them mixed up with a measurement system (we use millimetres for that), the A-series are a reference system, for paper only !

It's a reference system because peope are so familiar with it, people just know how big A4 is, and derive everything else from that.

Why should I give the actual dimensions (210x297mm) when everyone knows how big A4 is ? and being able to say "A5" instead of "Half of A4" is pretty convenient, you must admit!

--
~~wibble~~

Wayne Larmon · Jun 21, 2005

Jan Moren said:
stephenmelvin said:

Jan Moren said:

I wonder if the people of Friesland (North Germany and Denmark)
could have foretold that THEIR language would grow into a Lingua
Franka used across the globe 1500 years in the future..... {here I
refer to the roots of English}

Click to expand...

Ironic that the phrase "lingua Franca," which means "French
language" is used to refer to English.

Click to expand...

Actually a borrowed meaning. "Lingua Franca" originally refers to
diplomatic language, which was, and still largely is, French. The
expression has subsequently been borrowed to express the nalogous
concept in other fields. Not so strange, in other words.

A lingua franca or diplomatic language is language widely used beyond its native speakers, primarily for international commerce and extending to other cultural exchanges. The term lingua franca is Italian (literally "Frankish language"), derived from the Arabic connotation of the "Franks" (ancient Germans) as a generic term for Europeans.

Originally "lingua franca" referred to a mix of mostly Italian with a broad vocabulary drawn from Turkish, Persian, French, Greek and Arabic. This mixed language (pidgin, creole) was used for communication throughout the Middle East as a diplomatic language, hence the term "lingua franca" has become common for any language used by speakers of different languages to communicate with one another.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_franca

Wayne Larmon

Joe0Bloggs · Jun 21, 2005

no text

kbarni · Jun 21, 2005

Simon Joinson said:
the average DLSR weighing in at around half a frozen turkey).

...and the shutter speed is between 1/1209600000 and 1/75600 fortnights

)

Barrie Davis · Jun 21, 2005

stephenmelvin said:
stephenmelvin said:

I wonder if the people of Friesland (North Germany and Denmark)
could have foretold that THEIR language would grow into a Lingua
Franka used across the globe 1500 years in the future..... {here I
refer to the roots of English}

Click to expand...

stephenmelvin said:
Also English, like most other European languages, traces its roots
back to Latin. My French teacher used to complain about how "those
Germans" came 'round and messed up the orderly Latin language.

No. Not true.

English isn't a Latin language, as French, Spanish and Italian are. English is Germanic, like Danish, Flemish, and Dutch. (see my earlier post, above)

There's lots of Latin based WORDS in modern English, but that's because......

The English were overrun by French speaking Normans in 1066. French became the language of the aristocracy, and of diplomacy, for the next 300+ years. The plebs stuck with English.

After that...

New words taken into English were often deliberately built on Latin roots rather than English ones. This may be because the language of intellectuals and theologians (where the new words were coming from) had been Latin for the 1000 years PRIOR to the 1066 conquest, ever since the Roman Empire, in fact.

Indeed, the Roman Catholic Church didn't give up Latin for religious services until very recently -- 30 years ago (?) -- something like that. It was JP2 that instigated the change.

Regards,
Baz

BobTrips · Jun 21, 2005

jmgraumann said:
Why should I give the actual dimensions (210x297mm) when everyone
knows how big A4 is ?

Because A4 carries no information for a large part of the world. "Everyone" in this sense would probably be better written "Most Europeans".

Every time I try to answer an Ax question I have to google Ax and then get my mm to inches conversion formula.

Having to work with a backwards measurement system is enough strain on my system.

--

bob

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prefect41 · Jun 21, 2005

etymologists usually sit by themselves at cocktail parties. ;-)

As much as I enjoy tracing word histories myself, we have to be careful that we don't wind up thrown together with the octogenarians who keep saying, "You call that a word origin? Why back in my day..."

Barrie Davis said:
stephenmelvin said:

Barrie Davis said:

I wonder if the people of Friesland (North Germany and Denmark)
could have foretold that THEIR language would grow into a Lingua
Franka used across the globe 1500 years in the future..... {here I
refer to the roots of English}

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Barrie Davis said:

Also English, like most other European languages, traces its roots
back to Latin. My French teacher used to complain about how "those
Germans" came 'round and messed up the orderly Latin language.

Click to expand...

No. Not true.

English isn't a Latin language, as French, Spanish and Italian are.
English is Germanic, like Danish, Flemish, and Dutch. (see my
earlier post, above)

There's lots of Latin based WORDS in modern English, but that's
because......

The English were overrun by French speaking Normans in 1066. French
became the language of the aristocracy, and of diplomacy, for the
next 300+ years. The plebs stuck with English.

After that...

New words taken into English were often deliberately built on Latin
roots rather than English ones. This may be because the language of
intellectuals and theologians (where the new words were coming
from) had been Latin for the 1000 years PRIOR to the 1066 conquest,
ever since the Roman Empire, in fact.

Indeed, the Roman Catholic Church didn't give up Latin for
religious services until very recently -- 30 years ago (?) --
something like that. It was JP2 that instigated the change.

Regards,
Baz

swepri · Jun 21, 2005

I'll throw in all the Finnish I know:
Ranskalaiset perunat

Darn, now I'm hungry.
--
/ Paj

http://paj.smugmug.com

swepri · Jun 21, 2005

Is he still alive? I haven't heard him for years now. But you are right, speaking like him would be equally punishing for all people.

--
/ Paj

http://paj.smugmug.com

GaryW · Jun 21, 2005

BobTrips wrote:
....

Member said:
First, a lot of Americans really believe that the US is 'best' in
everything and would never look outside the boarders for a better
idea.

You mean, like the ENGLISH system of measuements? ;-)

I think that the metric system is already in wide use, at least in certain areas, such as scientific, medical, etc.

Myself, I've bought some metric tools for working on my Japanese car, but I just don't have a lot of need to work with metric. After all, my paper is measured in inches, construction material is measured in inches, etc. Force those things to change, and I'll be forced to change.

Even so, I often think of small things in mm rather than in 1/16". Go figure.

One time I ran across an article on this subject which suggested that the old English system wasn't so bad for certain uses, such as construction, and that the ability to work with fractions was an advantage.

I think if there is a system that is more advantageous for a given use, people will move to it. I think it's an interesting question, though, about how people might use measurements differently in different industries.

--
Gary W.

jmgraumann · Jun 22, 2005

As I said, it's NOT a measurement system, it's a REFERENCE system.

Just like saying "Letter" or "Foolscap" - these names carry no more (nor less) information than the name "A4" or "A whatever" but does that make them backwards ?

You don't honestly expect countries which work in metric measurements to use imperial measurement paper sizes as standard do you ? I'm not saying either is bad, they're just different. I find the metric system much easier to use because I always have used it, and expressing small dimensions is easier - I simply can't visualise things like 3/16" easily, but if you say approx 4.7mm I know exactly what you mean.

And anyway, it's a world standard (ISO), not just limited to Europe (DIN, BSO and co.), but just hasn't been adopted by the US.
--
~~wibble~~

Barrie Davis · Jun 22, 2005

jmgraumann said:
You don't honestly expect countries which work in metric
measurements to use imperial measurement paper sizes as standard do
you ?

Well, I don't see any special problem with it. Americans find it perfectly possible to work with metric FILM sizes where it suits them, whilst finding no need to change everything ELSE to metric.

35mm film has been used in Hollywood since the earliest days, and 70mm for a good few decades. (Note: these are halve-able film sizes!).

Indeed, if 35mm had not been so universally available to Americans, it is doubtful that the most-used size on a global scale, would have been as much used as it was.

Furthermore....

It is coming up 40 years since America routinely stated lens focal lengths in inches. I have never seen ANYONE on these forums use anything but millimetres for f-lengths, wherever they come from in the world.

So we know Americans could use A series if they chose to, with absolutely no need to metricate at all. Sadly, Americans just haven't realised that there would be good reasons to make the change.

Another point re. film sizes.

Just because a film size is Imperial in origin, like sheet film 10x8 and 5x4, doesn't mean they actually ARE the sizes as stated.....

10x8 film DOES measures 10 inches by 8 inches, but 5x4 film (as made and supplied in America) does NOT measure 5 inches by 4 inches. It is ever-so-slightly smaller -- being about 3/16" undersized in both directions.

Yeah, it is true I promise you, although not a lot of people are aware. I only found out when I tried to cut 10x8" film into 4 quarters and couldn't fit any of them into the darkslides!

The ACTUAL size of 5x4 film is closer to 100mm by 125mm, which, let's face it, is just about as "metric" as you can get, in this world or any other!!!

Regards,
Baz
--

is

stephenmelvin · Jun 22, 2005

Barrie Davis said:
jmgraumann said:

You don't honestly expect countries which work in metric
measurements to use imperial measurement paper sizes as standard do
you ?

Click to expand...

This has nothing to do with metric vs. imperial. It's just as easy to say 20cm x 25cm as it is to say 8 x 10. In either case, the precise size is being stated. There is no confusion.

Barrie Davis said:
So we know Americans could use A series if they chose to, with
absolutely no need to metricate at all. Sadly, Americans just
haven't realised that there would be good reasons to make the
change.

And many better reasons not to. Seriously, where's the benefit? The cost would be enormous. It's hard enough finding frames for many of the paper sizes we already have. Then there's the cost of changing over stock, not to mention the utter confusion when people go to buy paper and envelopes. Americans are very adept at doing cost/benefit analysis, and the cost (large) vs. benefit (square root of 2!) is backward, in our view.

BobTrips · Jun 22, 2005

jmgraumann said:
As I said, it's NOT a measurement system, it's a REFERENCE system.

That's fine. And I agree with you. It's not a measurement system. So when asking a question involving dimensions people should give the dimensions, not expect people who don't use those paper sizes to understand what they mean

jmgraumann said:
Just like saying "Letter" or "Foolscap" - these names carry no more
(nor less) information than the name "A4" or "A whatever" but does
that make them backwards ?

Just like A-whatever, I have no idea of the dimension of 'letter' or 'foolscap'. It would be just as obscuring to post a "How many pixels do I need for a Foolscap?".

jmgraumann said:
You don't honestly expect countries which work in metric
measurements to use imperial measurement paper sizes as standard do
you ?

Of course not. I personally don't give a flying fig about paper sizes. I crop my shots to best fit the subject, not some 'standard' paper size. And I need to know the maximum dimensions of a piece of paper so that I know how to choose the right piece.

jmgraumann said:
I'm not saying either is bad, they're just different. I find
the metric system much easier to use because I always have used it,
and expressing small dimensions is easier - I simply can't
visualise things like 3/16" easily, but if you say approx 4.7mm I
know exactly what you mean.

And I agree totally with you about the benefits of a metric measurement system. The math is a lot easier. And I would learn to estimate 4.7 mm with some usage. (At the moment I think of a meter as a big yard. ;o)

jmgraumann said:
And anyway, it's a world standard (ISO), not just limited to Europe
(DIN, BSO and co.), but just hasn't been adopted by the US.

Don't ask me to defend the stupid of the US and I won't ask you to defend the stupid of Europe.

Deal?

--

bob

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