Evolt 300 best value for quality images ?

barondla · May 25, 2005

JensR said:
JensR said:

I am also very dubious about the future of the 4/3s system.

Click to expand...

I see your points, but IMO it's too early to say. After all, it is
just a new proprietary mount, like Canon FD or EOS was/is - not a
big deal, even with the different crop factor. Time will tell. As
soon as a second body maker enters the scene, 4/3 is here to stay.

It isn't just a new lens mount. It is also a new format size just like different size film cameras. The problem is the 4/3 system locks companies into a set size. No one else is locked in with their lenses. Canon makes at least 3 different sizes that can use the same lenses. They have ff, 1.3, and 1.6. No matter what the market does later the camera companies have more options than 4/3 members. Can you imagine a smaller format than 4/3? Probably not for an slr. The new lenses can't go bigger.

Just because a second company makes 4/3 bodies doesn't guarantee that it will stick. Look at highend audio. Two formats were brought out to replace cd sound quality SACD by Sony and Philips and dvd A by Pana, Toshiba, Meridian and others. Five years later both are gasping for air and the plug is about to be pulled for dual disc and hd dvd.
I wish Oly well but fear they have made a wrong step.
thanks
barondla
--
barondla

JensR · May 25, 2005

Hi Barondla!

barondla said:
It isn't just a new lens mount. It is also a new format size just
like different size film cameras.

But it's less of a problem as having a 110 camera in a 135 world. You can't use a current Canon lens on a Nikon or vice versa anyway, so, what difference is a different size of CCD.

barondla said:
The problem is the 4/3 system
locks companies into a set size.

And so do APS-C sensors with matching lenses.

barondla said:
No one else is locked in with their lenses.

Really? Most manufacturers now have APS-C lenses on offer that probably would work so-so on 1.3x but not at all on FF.

barondla said:
Canon makes at least 3 different sizes that can use
the same lenses.

if you buy a full-frame-35mm lens - what you can do on the Oly, too.

barondla said:
They have ff, 1.3, and 1.6.

My question would be: is this smart?

barondla said:
No matter what the
market does later the camera companies have more options than 4/3
members.

Yes, but using a larger sensor would mean that all the nice APS-C glass is useless. Let's see whether we really get larger CCDs.

barondla said:
Can you imagine a smaller format than 4/3? Probably not
for an slr.

I can imagine an unimaginable amount of stuff. Even a 2/3" SLR. Do you know the Pentax 110 SLR?

However, nowadays, on of the main selling points of dSLRs are not interchangeable lenses or the WYSIWYG viewfinder or great lenses anymore - this was what set them apart from P&S cameras in film days. Now it's noise, noise, noise - at least that's my impression. So a smaller CCD in a dSLR inddeed appears unlikely.

barondla said:
The new lenses can't go bigger.
Just because a second company makes 4/3 bodies doesn't guarantee
that it will stick.

I did not mean it as a rule of physics, it was just my personal opinion/prediction.

barondla said:
Look at highend audio. Two formats were brought
out to replace cd sound quality SACD by Sony and Philips and dvd A
by Pana, Toshiba, Meridian and others. Five years later both are
gasping for air and the plug is about to be pulled for dual disc
and hd dvd.

Ok, but look at DVD+ and DVD-. Now, how long do we have this double-standard? Will one die before the other or will both be superseeded by the next technology?

cya
Jens

Ziuko · Jun 19, 2005

I was digifile but lost my password, so now I am Ziuko, even if I don't own Olympus yet. Just some thoughts on the discussion:

I think an open standard would be great for consumers as it is not maufacturer specific, and you would be able to change brands at will, thus giving more competition and hopefully better value for the consumer. Soon 4/3 will have Panasonic and Olympus imagine if Sony and Fuji also released bodies. There might be a Foveon 4/3.

The benefit I see in 4/3 is when two or three manufacturers use it, then you can choose two bodies one with great ISO the other with say waterproofing but still use just one set of lenses. Or use one body with different maunfacturers lenses where the lens manufacturer has all the specs and didn't have to reverse engineer it like Sigma has with Canon say and the subsequent problems that ensued .

I've noticed that the other companys are also releasing smaller lenses which work only with APS format. This is obviously a growth area for them, and it also lets them compete head on with Olympus who claimed smaller lenses. The flip side is that people buying these lenses are locked in to say Canon still with a lens that will only work APS bodies.

If you buy a 4/3 you can buy adapters from say Camera quest which lets you use primes and others from Olympus, Nikon, Pentax, Canon etc.

Ziuko · Jun 19, 2005

I imagine many of you picked the Pentax based on size and wieght as well as handling, given the Canon 350 d is now availalble would you still pick the Pentax with 6MP or go the extra for 8MP in Canon ?

Is so what would be the three key reasons?

Thanks

Joele · Jun 19, 2005

I would still pick the Pentax as I value a decent viewfinder, and I still like the feel of the DS (grip) over the 350d and I prefer not being locked into proprietory batteries.

Other advantages for me of the DS over the 350d:

The DS may have slghtly slower focusing than the 350d but with 9 cross focus points versus 1, I would bet it is more accurate and versatile.
A decent sized and resolution review screen (DS = 2" and 210,000 pixels vs. the 350d with 1.8" and only 115,000 pixels)
Replaceable focus screen
True spot metering

I guess it depends what features are important to you...

Ziuko said:
I imagine many of you picked the Pentax based on size and wieght as
well as handling, given the Canon 350 d is now availalble would you
still pick the Pentax with 6MP or go the extra for 8MP in Canon ?

Is so what would be the three key reasons?

Thanks

--
------------
Joel - *ist DS/P30n/SFX
http://www.pbase.com/joele

'The true nature of humanity lies in the fact that we cannot tolerate intolerance.'

Roland Mabo · Jun 19, 2005

Tests in various magazines (Amateur Photographer, Color Foto, Foto Magazin) has not showned that the E-300 gives better quality images than the DS. There's more to quality images than the Mp value.

And the noise-free high ISO images of the DS is a great bonus. Recently I was shooting at a yoga festival and my old flash suddenly gave up when I was shooting at the indoor party night. I replaced the batteries, but it didn't help. So, I boosted ISO to 1600 and also 3200, put on my FA 50 f/1.7 lens and got very useful images with f2 - f/2.8 and 1/60. So, for me - this low noise at high ISO-thing with the DS really was a "life saver".

Take care

Roland

Joele · Jun 19, 2005

Agreed, also sometimes the use of flash is just rude, or not allowed at all, so high ISO is important.

------------
Joel - *ist DS/P30n/SFX
http://www.pbase.com/joele

'The true nature of humanity lies in the fact that we cannot tolerate intolerance.'

Godfrey · Jun 19, 2005

Ziuko said:
I imagine many of you picked the Pentax based on size and wieght as
well as handling, given the Canon 350 d is now availalble would you
still pick the Pentax with 6MP or go the extra for 8MP in Canon ?

Is so what would be the three key reasons?

In addition to my *ist DS kit, I have a 10D kit and recently had opportunity to shoot for a bit with the 350XT. The 350XT body is almost identical in size/weight to the *ist DS, but...

The DS' viewfinder is better.
I prefer the DS control organization: it's easier to learn and remember

what the controls are, how they affect your picture taking, etc.

The Canon lenses are still much bigger, heavier, and more expensive

(for the good stuff) than the Pentax lenses.

I like the battery flexibility provided by the DS.

The 350XT has a slightly faster focusing system, the ability to acquire larger sequences at maximum frame rate, and has access to the Canon IS lenses. These are good things, but I don't find them essential to my photography. A good viewfinder is a significant aid, as are simple, logical, easy to understand controls.

Godfrey

MrForgetable · Jun 19, 2005

i think it depends what "quality images" means to someone. i like the olympus skin tones a lot, and i like to take pictures of people, so that is an important thing to me. i don't see myself using super high ISO very much? i guess the only thing holding me back is that I want the E-1 more than i want the E-300. but then again, the E-1 is MUCH more expensive, especially if I want the 14-54mm and the 50-200mm zuikos.

the E-300 IS the best value on the market right now, especially with the 2 lens kit. however, value is "relative". so i think the E-1 would suit me better (i don't need 8megapixels)

right now, I may be weird, but I prefer the limited number of Olympus lenses. I can get 2 lenses that will each cover it's own ground. Yes, I will pay a bit more but I know the quality I will get. if I go with the E-300 2 lens kit (860 dollars online) I will have an effective 28-300mm in just two, compact, pretty good lenses. then I'll get the 50mm F2 macro and I will have one of the sharpest lenses on the market. if I get enough money for the E-1, i would be able to have a 28-400mm equiv. in just 2 splashproof, relatively compact, bright lenses.

i guess if there is one line of lenses I just don't understand yet it is the pentax line. i will need to look into it more as I am liking the *ist DS for it's size and feel in the hand, but right now, i am leaning toward the Olympus side because of the excellent pricey lenses. does pentax have a quality 28- 100 F2.8(at wide) equiv. lens around? i think 80mm is a little short.
--
i use a mac.

thw · Jun 19, 2005

I will never bother about this 6 vs 8 MP rubbish. (OK, this is not sour grapes because I actually have an 8 MP DSLR.) There are many other more important factors to consider.

If you dislike the sizes of 350D and DS, then you may want to get them. It's very important that you feel comfortable with the camera size.

One reason to go into DSLR is to be able to use high ISO eg 800, 1600. Having a fast lens is good but not always affordable. Do you have any idea how expensive those darn Zuiko lenses are? I suppose by now you can guess that I am pushing you towards the D70.

Also note that I do not have a D70, so I am really quite neutral. Furthermore, for portrait shooting, the larger sensors have the advantage of shallow depth of field.

Why will I recommend the Pentax? Actually, for your shooting preferences ie landscape and portraits, you should seriously, seriously consider Pentax. Their lenses are generally not very expensive and some of them are really outstanding. John Bean is very good for landscape shooting and DarrenM has some of the best portrait shots ever. Look at their photos and be awed by what Pentax can offer in the hands of a skillful photographer.

Godfrey · Jun 19, 2005

MrForgetable said:
.. i like the olympus skin tones a lot, and i like to take pictures of
people, so that is an important thing to me.

Skin tones and other rendering qualities are a function of the conversion from the sensor's RAW data to JPEG. The Oly has good rendering, so does the Pentax. You can get any rendering you want with either if you save images in RAW format and do the post processing yourself.

MrForgetable said:
the E-300 IS the best value on the market right now,

I find that debatable, but I am not interested in the debate. ;-)

MrForgetable said:
right now, I may be weird, but I prefer the limited number of
Olympus lenses.

If they have what suits your needs, life is good. The premium Oly Zuiko lenses introduced with the E-1 are very good, I don't know about the cheaper lenses introduced with the E-300.

MrForgetable said:
i guess if there is one line of lenses I just don't understand yet
it is the pentax line. ...

I didn't either until I bought a Pentax and studied them. The Pentax lens line is complex and has a 60 year history to it. The good news is that all of it is accessible and usable with a *ist D or DS body.

MrForgetable said:
... does pentax have a quality 28- 100 F2.8(at wide)
equiv. lens around? i think 80mm is a little short.

The Pentax FA28-105/3.2-4.5 AL IF is an excellent lens at a quite modest price ... not quite the f/2.8 you're looking for, but close enough to not matter much.

Godfrey

wayne58604 · Jun 19, 2005

The Evolt is a great camera, but I don't like the lack of LCD status monitor. The images are typical Olympus (nice colers, good contrast/exposure), but start to fail in low light (more noise than the D70 and the ist, and much more than the Canons). As for the E-1, it is light years above the Evolt in quality and build. Slow, but still a good camera. The Canons have nice glass, but I don't care for the rear LCD status screen. The D70 is fast to turn on, but has marginally higher noise than the ist. The ist DS is the best compromise, and is a lot less expensive (under $800 with kit lens). You mentioned Sigma lenses, and if that is your intent, then pick the body you like the best. Personally, I prefer the camera maker's lenses, as they tend to be a bit above the third party ones (not in all cases, but in general).

Wayne

exp1orer · Jun 19, 2005

...it's the only entry level DSLR that can use both the internal (as fill-in flash) and external flash at the same time which most e300 users who complain about the ugly looks appreciate. if you take a look at the posts at oly dslr talk, so many post with fii-in flash looks great because of its 'abnormal' flash design.

--
exp1orer
my gallery: http://www.pbase.com/explorer

odiemutt · Jun 19, 2005

I currently have both an E-1 and a DS. This is only temporary, I bought a new DS w/ kit lens. Then found a good deal on a used E-1 w/ 14-54mm.

1. The viewfinder on the E-1 with the grid screen is excellent. The DS is nice but the matte screen in comparision looks grainier. Could be the issue is the slower kit lens. Since the composition is done with the lens wide open the kit lens is slow enough that it makes VF look dim. I bet with a faster pentax lens would make a big difference.

2. Size, DS is smaller and nice to hold. E-1 is bigger. But I think if you paired the DS with a 16-45mm lens (closer in quality to the olympus 14-54mm) the size differences are much closer.

3. rear LCD screen, pentax is nice an sharp and bright. Better than E-1.

4. E-1... no pop-up flash. Big negative since I like to have it on sunny days for fill flash. Means I need to carry FL-20 in bag for this.

5. Image quality, pretty darn close, even with pentax Kit lens.

I'm going to keep E-1 and return DS. The #1 reason: YOU CANNOT FIND PENTAX LENSES!!! Used ones on ebay are selling higher than when they were new, even older SMC-A quality lenses are through the roof. You have a hard time finding pentax lenses new, especially for the quality lower cost ones. For example pentax 50mm/1.4. Sold out everwhere. Seems pentax makes them in quantity 10 for the entire world... B&H sells out their allotment in an hour today.

The E-1 ergonomically is MUCH nicer than E-300. I'd recommend looking for a used one. Can be had for close to the same price as a new E-300.

David Bourke · Jun 20, 2005

I chose the *ist D for the following reasons:

small size
felt great in my hand
separate dials for Av and Tv
great view finder
hyper-program
green button for manual lenses
depth of field preview
great control layout

The Evolt body did not appeal to me, but those lenses sure do. Pentax has nothing in the 28-105 (35mm fov equivalent). One thing to consider is that given the differences in the DOF and ISO capabilities of the two cameras, an F2.8 Oly lens is equal to an F4 Pentax. In my opinion what is really great about the 14-54mm is wide to short tele with virtually no distortion or CA.

--David Bourke
http://www.usefilm.com/photographer/24821.html

Duncan McKlowd · Jun 20, 2005

David Bourke said:
an F2.8 Oly lens is equal to an F4 Pentax. In my opinion what is really great about the 14-54mm is wide to short tele with virtually no distortion or CA.

The difference in DOF has been calculated to be more like half a stop. You are correct though about the distortion and CA. That's one of the reasons I am in the process of moving form my 20D and a boatload of Canon lenses to the E-system.

Matsushita/Panasonic will be coming out with a new 4/3rds body soon, as well as 2 bodies coming from Olympus. Rumor has it, (from a relaible source,) that one or more of those bodies will have bult in AS, like the Konica-Minolta. Imagine that! Give it one or two stops better high ISO performane, and 4/3rd's will be a big contender.

--
http://www.pbase.com/duncanmcklowd

Godfrey · Jun 20, 2005

David Bourke said:
.. Pentax has nothing in the 28-105 (35mm fov equivalent). ...

There are precious few 18-70mm lenses in the world. ;-)

Godfrey

thw · Jun 20, 2005

Duncan McKlowd said:
that one or more of those bodies will have bult
in AS, like the Konica-Minolta. Imagine that! Give it one or two
stops better high ISO performane, and 4/3rd's will be a big
contender.

The poor high ISO performance, inconsistent Oly jpeg rendition, funny WB behavior and inconsistent metering performance are the major killers for Oly's DSLR, IMHO. But with Panasonic stepping in, hopefully all these problems will be ironed out. I am in favor of more competition.

cheddargav · Jun 20, 2005

Ziuko said:
I imagine many of you picked the Pentax based on size and wieght as
well as handling, given the Canon 350 d is now availalble would you
still pick the Pentax with 6MP or go the extra for 8MP in Canon ?

Is so what would be the three key reasons?

Thanks

I have had a DS for about 4 months now and got my hands on the Canon 350 the other day . . . and now I see why it's so cheap - cos it is cheap and plasticky! It's basically Canon's way of getting people into the DSLR world with a Canon, then, when they want more, the natural progression is a better Canon.

as for the Oly, I can't comment, like most of the people in this Pentax forum. All I can say is that the Pentax ist DS is a superb camera

regards

Duncan McKlowd · Jun 20, 2005

thw said:
thw said:

that one or more of those bodies will have bult
in AS, like the Konica-Minolta. Imagine that! Give it one or two
stops better high ISO performane, and 4/3rd's will be a big
contender.

Click to expand...

The poor high ISO performance,

No worse than the Nikon Dx2 right now.

thw said:
inconsistent Oly jpeg rendition,

Most haven't noticed problems after the latest firmware update. Doesn't matter to me, anyway, since I always shoot raw.

thw said:
funny WB behavior and inconsistent metering performance are the
major killers for Oly's DSLR, IMHO.

See above.

thw said:
But with Panasonic stepping in,
hopefully all these problems will be ironed out. I am in favor of
more competition.

Yes, I agree. The Pentaxes seem like pretty good cameras to me. Makes me wonder sometimes why they don't sell more of them.

--
http://www.pbase.com/duncanmcklowd

Evolt 300 best value for quality images ?

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