Mac to move to Intel!!!

In the early 80s Andy Grove approached Apple and suggested that he
be licensed to mass produce the Macintosh chip so clone makers
could have access to them.
Huh? Perhaps you are talking about Apple II, not Mac? Apple went with 6502 instead of more common Intel 8080 (or its clone, the Zilog Z80). The Mac was Motorola 68k, I doubt Moto would have wanted (or needed!) to have a partner to manufacture this part.
So Grove when to IBM and they licensed him to make PC chips.
The Mac was developed after the IBM PC. You've got your history backwards.

IBM chose the Intel 8088 over the Moto 68K, presumably for cost reaosns.
That's why clones are PCs rather than Macs.
No, clones are PCs because a few companies went to the bother of doing a clean BIOS that was free of IBM IP. A clone manufacturer could do the same against Apple, but it's a question of too much risk (investing engineering resources to do the reverse engineering, and getting sued) vs too little reward (mac market is relatively small).
There was a brief flurry
of Mac clones when Motorola was making the chips...and Jobs was
busy with Next and Pixar. When Steve returned to Apple he put a
stop to it.
Clones were from 1995 to 1997. That was during the early PowerPC phase, not Moto 68k. You could clone a 68K mac by lifting the ROM from an old dead Mac, but that wasn't done too much.

Jobs was fired from Apple in 1985, and returned in 1996. When he became CEO in 1997 he killed the clones.
A friend of mine who is highly placed at Intel says both chip
architectures are obsolete and that the big winner will be whoever
jumps first to a new level of technology.
IA32 is long obsolete, but is proof that pigs can fly. PowerPC isn't so bad, but is no longer state-of-the-art.
 
What's Cray's marketshare?
In their market? Near zero. That's why they've been bought and sold a few times.
How come nobody talks about that?
Those in the supercomputer field did.

BTW, what brand of beer ships (shipped?) with every Cray? For bonus marks, tell me why that brand was used.
Bill Gates best trick is understanding who makes the decisions on
what computer to buy. When the personal computer was evolving, IT
decisions at big companies were made by PhDs who went to MIT or Cal
Tech. Gates could see those days were over. Now computers are
purchased by guys who a generation ago would have been assistant
service manager at a gas station or driving a milk truck.
You've got this part backwards, too. Education of folks, including management, is increasing, not decreasing. Back in the days, they'd hire anybody that could fog a mirror and say "IBM".
His product is tailored to those two-fisted, hard
charging, hairy-backed guys.
Microsoft markets to Andre the Giant? You learn something everyday.
The Mac buyer went to art school,
drives a Citroen, and smokes French Gitane cigarettes.
That explains why Apple's market share is so low!
 
BULL.. Intel is not overpriced and in fact DOES represent the
best "bang for the buck". If you look at their dual core CPU's,
they are HALF that of AMD's. Your comment is without basis. As
far as AMD is concerned, they do have a good chip with Opteron but
not only is 64bits a meaningless metric of being "king", Intel
outships AMD on 64 bits about 20 to one !
The AMD dual core CPUs are so superior compared to the Intel dual cores that AMD is now in a position that's novel to them. They can afford to ask a premium. Something Intel has been doing for a looooong time. However they could do it, because of the brand recognition and the ignorance of the buying public.

AMD's single processor CPUs are not as dramatically superior, but still better in many applications and THEY represent the best bang for the buck.

As for sales numbers, well you know that 99.9% of the public haven't got a clue when it comes to the technical side of computers, so they'll just buy whatever they see the most commercials for and whatever has the highest Ghz or Mhz rating.
 
Apple's market share isn't that low in real numbers (about 20 million methinks).

…and they make for about half of the Photoshop users, so Adobe will have to tweak the code if necessary (which I doubt) and Intel works with Adobe (it's their programers who optimize Photoshop's code for the chip).

Also, someone was saying that applications come on the PC first and than get ported to the Mac.

Not so for all the stuff I care about: Photoshop, Illustrator, Freehand, Quark, Go Live, Strata…
 
Also, someone was saying that applications come on the PC first and
than get ported to the Mac.
Not so for all the stuff I care about: Photoshop, Illustrator,
Freehand, Quark, Go Live, Strata…
No, I'm not going to get involved in a mindless Mac vs PC argument but I will say this. Your comments are not true any more. For many years now, Adobe has sold much more units and has made much more money for the PC than for the Mac. This is not the 1980s with icons vs the C-prompt. I don't believe, however, that Adobe "ports" any versions in the traditional meaning of the word.
 
In the early 80s Andy Grove approached Apple and suggested that he
be licensed to mass produce the Macintosh chip so clone makers
could have access to them. Apple said no. Actually, Steve Jobs said
no. So Grove when to IBM and they licensed him to make PC chips.
IBM chose to use an existing Intel processor (8088) in the original IBM PC (model 5150). At some point later, Intel licensed IBM (not the reverse) the rights to manufacture various x86 designs. (The most important part of this license is a patent cross licensing deal, which has allowed IBM to manufacture various x86 implementations for other companies. AMD has similar access to patents, though it took a protracted legal battle to realize them.)
That's why clones are PCs rather than Macs.
The clone market for PCs resulted from IBM's details documentation of the design, IBM's inability to prevent other companies from cloning the design due to legal restrictions from their consent decree, and most importantly, that the operating system came from Microsoft and IBM did not have an exclusive on the OS. (As hardware companies are wont to do, they underestimated the import of software.)

Any company wanting to build a PC compatible machine had access to the information necessary to do so and could easily cut a deal with Microsoft for the OS. Throw in a couple serendipitous factors that forced 100% compatibility to be required (e.g. it was IBM after all, not some smaller company) and the widespread market arose fairly naturally.
Grove at that time thought the Mac architecture was superior.
Grove may (or may not) have liked the Mac OS better than MSDOS, but Intel was in intense competition with Motorola -- x86 vs. 68k. It wasn't until 1990 or so that Intel started leaving Motorola in the dust. Intel's interest would have been in convincing Apple to use x86, not in manufacturing 68k parts (which they would not have been allowed to do).
There was a brief flurry
of Mac clones when Motorola was making the chips...
This happened after the switch to PowerPC, thus it was both IBM and Motorola making the chips. Timeframe was 1994 to 1997 or so if I recall.

[...]
A friend of mine who is highly placed at Intel says both chip
architectures are obsolete and that the big winner will be whoever
jumps first to a new level of technology.
Lots of people say so, but they have been proved wrong time and time again. It isn't so much that x86 is a great instruction set as that it isn't so bad and there is so much money behind it that people work hard to make it go fast. There is no end of rationalization for creating new instruction sets, but history proves that it is seldom worthwhile.

For example, Intel has the IPF (nee IA64, aka Itanium) architecture which is an attempt at moving to a new technology. Close to 15 years and likely 10 billion dollars (collectively across the industry) after it was started, IPF is still not significantly ahead of Power/PowerPC or x86 and to many eyes it has proved to be much harder to implement in practice. It is basically a really expensive pig.

In fact, AMD basically proved Intel wrong on this very point with AMD64 vs. IPF. Intel has been forced to implement AMD64 and likely will be forced to abandon IPF within the next five to ten years. Intel themselves bet against x86 and lost.

x86 is here to stay. It aint perfect but it could suck worse. I'm fine with this as it makes for a very large market of cheap fast processors that all run the same instruction set. The Apple/Intel move, if it happens, is interesting as the same would be true for PowerPC. There's no strong technical reason to switch, so it has to be about a business decision.

-Z-
 
Also, someone was saying that applications come on the PC first and
than get ported to the Mac.
Not so for all the stuff I care about: Photoshop, Illustrator,
Freehand, Quark, Go Live, Strata…
No, I'm not going to get involved in a mindless Mac vs PC argument
I just responded to a mindless allegation (didn't start a war).
but I will say this. Your comments are not true any more. For many
years now, Adobe has sold much more units and has made much more
money for the PC than for the Mac.
Got proof?
 
but I will say this. Your comments are not true any more. For many
years now, Adobe has sold much more units and has made much more
money for the PC than for the Mac.
Got proof?
"More than half of Adobe's $1.7 billion in annual revenue come from selling its popular Photoshop and Illustrator products to creative types"

http://yahoo.businessweek.com/technology/content/apr2005/tc20050419_4948_tc024.htm

"When you look at our overall revenue, or percentage of revenue, we get somewhere between 22% and 25% of our business from Macintosh customers"

http://www.macobserver.com/article/2004/04/22.12.shtml

The server software mentioned is basically Acrobat, and it accounts for about 20% to 25% of revenue (you can infer that from 42% Acrobat revenue growth helping boost overall revenue 12%, but I've seen it stated more directly elsewhere). This is mostly (but not all) non-mac revenue, and it is also the fastest growing part of Adobe.

So if you knock off Acrobat revenue and assume it is all non-Mac, you get Windows revenue at least 2x Mac.
 
Apple's market share isn't that low in real numbers (about 20
million methinks).
…and they make for about half of the Photoshop users, so Adobe will
have to tweak the code if necessary (which I doubt) and Intel works
with Adobe (it's their programers who optimize Photoshop's code for
the chip).
Also, someone was saying that applications come on the PC first and
than get ported to the Mac.
Not so for all the stuff I care about: Photoshop, Illustrator,
Freehand, Quark, Go Live, Strata…
That was me about the windows first.

Adobe appears to be now releasing mac and pc products at the same time. But no, they sell more windows applications than mac applications now.

I do not know about quark and strata
 
Adobe makes software like Premiere, that Mac users don't buy much of because Final Cut is better or ATM Deluxe and others, but even if your conclusion is right, one third of Adobe's customers come from Apple.
One third of 1.7 Billion dollars is a "nice neighborhood" : )
 
Adobe makes software like Premiere, that Mac users don't buy much
of
And now they buy zero of. Adobe discontinued Premiere for Mac.

The two biggest programs for Adobe are Photoshop and Illustrator. That's more than half the business right there. So even if all Mac sales are just Photoshop and Illustrator, Windows outsells Mac.
but even
if your conclusion is right, one third of Adobe's customers come
from Apple.
One third of 1.7 Billion dollars is a "nice neighborhood" : )
I never implied it wasn't. I was simply responding to your "got proof" with, well, proof.
 
It's interesting that Jobs has stated the importance of PPC speed on the one hand ("We will have a 3 gig.PPC by this time next year, etc.") and yet be stating that because of the architecture, etc. speed is not the best metric, etc., when comparing PPC and x86. I must say, that as a non techy I bought into his hype. Now, as I read a transcript of his keynote speech, he's abandoned that line and he's said (in so many words) that IBM has let him down, bigtime. None of this is surprising, of course, but I find it interesting and instructive.
 
Most of it isn't hype

When Apple went with PPC, it had a simpler less power hungry architecture than Pentium. Apple didn't hold up their side of the deal and sell enogh mac's, and IBM moved the roadmap of PPC for more embedded and server applications.

Intel in the mean time got religion on efficient chips and produced the centrino chipset. As things got faster speed wasn't as important. Centrino is produced to be more power efficient (ie. smaller lighter devices using less battery power per hour), and sped up many of the new applications like playing movies and music.

Good design has never been a mac problem, but pricing is. I'm sure the intel chips and chipsets will make apple a more cost efficient producer (its a big design win for intel, why not discount) which should be good for both apple and intel.
It's interesting that Jobs has stated the importance of PPC speed
on the one hand ("We will have a 3 gig.PPC by this time next year,
etc.") and yet be stating that because of the architecture, etc.
speed is not the best metric, etc., when comparing PPC and x86. I
must say, that as a non techy I bought into his hype. Now, as I
read a transcript of his keynote speech, he's abandoned that line
and he's said (in so many words) that IBM has let him down,
bigtime. None of this is surprising, of course, but I find it
interesting and instructive.
 
Yeah, your personal polling is much more accurate than market research data. You must spend a lot of time near ad agencies.

Adopting Intel CPUs is the first shoe. The other really big shoe would be for Apple to take the tiny step of then offering the OS as an alternative that will run on the gazillions of PCs out there. Buy Apple stock now if you think Steve has the huevos and think twice about your short term Microsoft holdings.

--
BJN
 
We have to see on how many machines can OSX run.

It is much more efficient and stable that any of MS...

MS either slims the codes or goes to UNIX core, loosing most of his patents...

MS risks to be swept out of the market in 5 years time !
 
One comment I read that is perhaps a good one, if now windows versions of software can run almost natively on these new Mactel machines, why would developers bother writing a OSX version, just tell the users of the new macs to switch over to WINE or whatever.
 
When Apple went with PPC, it had a simpler less power hungry
architecture than Pentium.
When Apple went PPC in the early '90s (I think their development started 1991), the Pentium didn't even exist. Power consumption on desktop CPUs was around a dozen watts, not the 100 watt monsters of today. Notebook computers weren't a big concern.

Apple went PPC because the POWER CPU was one of the hot high-end processors of the day. A step up (or two or three) from I486.
Intel in the mean time got religion on efficient chips and produced
the centrino chipset.
That's quite a long ways from 1991.
 

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