D70/D50 VS Rebel XT (First DSLR Purchase)

DocDAT · May 31, 2005

NickMJr said:
DocDAT said:

adam_sn said:

I'm sure nikon
had the capability to up the mp to 8 (look at the D2X) but decided
not to for the reasons mentioned above.

Click to expand...

Nope, they don't make the sensors themselves, and the ones they
could get were too expensive. So reserved for the higher end models.

NickMJr said:

They decided to improve on an already good design with a larger
screen and better autofocus (that can now be obtained through a
firmware upgrade).

Click to expand...

The D70s is a joke. It's just a D70 with a marginally larger LCD
screen (but with same number of pixels) and some changes in the AF
firmware. Not worth any increase in price, and certainly not the
price they are asking.

Click to expand...

Actually I though the joke was on the Canon 300D as it was crippled
by Canon.

umm do I sound like I care about the 300D? Have I mentioned the 300D? We are talking about the D70 vs XT.

NickMJr said:
However Nikon at least respects there cutsomers by
improving the D100 to make the D70 and reduced the price too.
Then when they came out with the D70s they gave us a firmward > upgrade.
Also Nikon does not give you a crappy Kit lens, now where is the
Joke?

Again, why are you talking about the D100, kit lens, blablabla and how Nikon respects their customers. I don't care about Nikon or Canon. We are talking about choosing between the D70/D70s/D50 and XT, and if the D70s is worth the premium over D70. Since it's really the same camera it isn't.

NickMJr · May 31, 2005

DocDAT said:
drejc said:

DocDAT said:

adam_sn said:

6mp =3000 x 2000

8mp =3465 x 2310

465 more pixels on the longest side... now tell me are you going to
see a difference in that at an 8x10?
--
'Where does the film go in my digital camera?'

Click to expand...

Like I said, you don't measure resolution on one axis. You measure
it in area. 30% is 30%. Who uses a dSLR to just print out in 8x10
without cropping???

Click to expand...

i'm aslo asking myself where did you get 30% ????

Click to expand...

Heh, no the interesting question is how on earth people can come up
with 15%. You can't just take one axis and say it's 15% longer and
therefore the resolution is 15% higher. A picture isn't 1
dimensional. Area is measured in total number of pixels. 8 MP is
33% more area than 6 MP. It's ~ 30% when you look at the real
dimensions though.

Do you tell your friends that your 8X10 have 30% more pixels and is 30% more square inches? can you see the difference? Do you print a 9.2"x11.5" to take advantage or 8MP?

-------------------------------------------------------------------
http://home.comcast.net/~nickmjr/
Nick M

MJHale · May 31, 2005

NickMJr said:
DocDAT said:

drejc said:

DocDAT said:

adam_sn said:

6mp =3000 x 2000

8mp =3465 x 2310

465 more pixels on the longest side... now tell me are you going to
see a difference in that at an 8x10?
--
'Where does the film go in my digital camera?'

Click to expand...

Like I said, you don't measure resolution on one axis. You measure
it in area. 30% is 30%. Who uses a dSLR to just print out in 8x10
without cropping???

Click to expand...

i'm aslo asking myself where did you get 30% ????

Click to expand...

Heh, no the interesting question is how on earth people can come up
with 15%. You can't just take one axis and say it's 15% longer and
therefore the resolution is 15% higher. A picture isn't 1
dimensional. Area is measured in total number of pixels. 8 MP is
33% more area than 6 MP. It's ~ 30% when you look at the real
dimensions though.

Click to expand...

Do you tell your friends that your 8X10 have 30% more pixels and is
30% more square inches? can you see the difference? Do you print a
9.2"x11.5" to take advantage or 8MP?

No but the point is that you could - with an 8MP sensor you have 33% more pixels than a 6MP sensor so as already explained you can crop away much more of your image and still be left with a 10x8 than you could with the 6MP sensor.

HTH, Mike

MJHale · May 31, 2005

Why waste your bandwidth and everyone else's by posting stuff like this? Do you have nothing better to comment on????

On second thoughts why am I bothering...

EOSguy said:
EOSguy said:

great thread!! this topic has never been tackled before. i cant
wait to see what kinds of answers you will get. this should be new
ground for all of us.

thank you!!

Click to expand...

DocDAT · May 31, 2005

NickMJr said:
DocDAT said:

drejc said:

DocDAT said:

adam_sn said:

6mp =3000 x 2000

8mp =3465 x 2310

465 more pixels on the longest side... now tell me are you going to
see a difference in that at an 8x10?
--
'Where does the film go in my digital camera?'

Click to expand...

Like I said, you don't measure resolution on one axis. You measure
it in area. 30% is 30%. Who uses a dSLR to just print out in 8x10
without cropping???

Click to expand...

i'm aslo asking myself where did you get 30% ????

Click to expand...

Heh, no the interesting question is how on earth people can come up
with 15%. You can't just take one axis and say it's 15% longer and
therefore the resolution is 15% higher. A picture isn't 1
dimensional. Area is measured in total number of pixels. 8 MP is
33% more area than 6 MP. It's ~ 30% when you look at the real
dimensions though.

Click to expand...

Do you tell your friends that your 8X10 have 30% more pixels and is
30% more square inches? can you see the difference? Do you print a
9.2"x11.5" to take advantage or 8MP?

Have you heard of cropping?

tonywh · May 31, 2005

they are both excelent cameras, you will be delighted by either. I would go to the shop or friends try each for a while and the one I was most at ease with I would buy, you may spend a lot of time with it. All this technical comparison/competition stuff dont produce good photos, both cameras will. I once asked 2 very successful pros why they used a brand, one said the olympus was the brand he took the first picture of his wife with, and the other said he used nikon because you could lay somebody out in a barroom brawl with it and still take a picture of them laying on the floor. Odd reasons for brand choise but they both became internationaly well known.

tony

Frank C. · May 31, 2005

YellowBullet said:
YellowBullet said:

you must know that D70 has much better sharpnes and resolution like
300D have. so the pictures are sharper than in 300D

Click to expand...

You must know that you're talking nonsense.

Sharpness and resolution aren't any better on D70 than they are on
300D. That's a myth started by Nikon zealouts who just couldn't
handle the fact that Canon simply makes a better sensor than Sony,
so they invented the "fact" that D70 is "sharper".

Since when does Sony make the sensor for the D70? Do a
careful search and you shall be enlightened...

YellowBullet said:
Find me ONE objective review where D70 and 300D are compared in
equal conditions and with similar lenses (NOT the $50 Canon kit
lens vs. a $200 Nikon kit) that shows how D70 has "much better
sharpness and resolution".

350D is slightly sharper and resolves slightly more details than
both 300D and D70 by the virtue of its megapixel advantage. Either
camera will only produce picture as sharp as the lens you put in
front of it.

NickMJr · May 31, 2005

Frank C. said:
YellowBullet said:

Member said:

you must know that D70 has much better sharpnes and resolution like
300D have. so the pictures are sharper than in 300D

Click to expand...

You must know that you're talking nonsense.

Sharpness and resolution aren't any better on D70 than they are on
300D. That's a myth started by Nikon zealouts who just couldn't
handle the fact that Canon simply makes a better sensor than Sony,
so they invented the "fact" that D70 is "sharper".

Click to expand...

Since when does Sony make the sensor for the D70? Do a
careful search and you shall be enlightened...

Member said:

Find me ONE objective review where D70 and 300D are compared in
equal conditions and with similar lenses (NOT the $50 Canon kit
lens vs. a $200 Nikon kit) that shows how D70 has "much better
sharpness and resolution".

350D is slightly sharper and resolves slightly more details than
both 300D and D70 by the virtue of its megapixel advantage. Either
camera will only produce picture as sharp as the lens you put in
front of it.

Click to expand...

Frank is right I believe its a Sanyo/Nikon joint venture that improved the Sony CCD for the D70.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
http://home.comcast.net/~nickmjr/
Nick M

Frank C. · May 31, 2005

unfortunately 'resolution' is not directly proportional to 'pixel
count' or 'pixel area'... it's a little more involved than that.
Want an example of this? just do the math on Phil's numbers
in his 300D .vs. 350XT comparo here:

: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos350d/page27.asp

He pegs the increase in rez at about 15% and the extinction
resolutions are virtually identical in both cameras about 5% apart..

now hurry on back to school and brush up on your technical skills....

DocDAT said:
drejc said:

DocDAT said:

adam_sn said:

6mp =3000 x 2000

8mp =3465 x 2310

465 more pixels on the longest side... now tell me are you going to
see a difference in that at an 8x10?
--
'Where does the film go in my digital camera?'

Click to expand...

Like I said, you don't measure resolution on one axis. You measure
it in area. 30% is 30%. Who uses a dSLR to just print out in 8x10
without cropping???

Click to expand...

i'm aslo asking myself where did you get 30% ????

Click to expand...

Heh, no the interesting question is how on earth people can come up
with 15%. You can't just take one axis and say it's 15% longer and
therefore the resolution is 15% higher. A picture isn't 1
dimensional. Area is measured in total.. number of pixels. 8 MP is
33% more area than 6 MP. It's ~ 30% when you look at the real
dimensions though.

YellowBullet · May 31, 2005

Arturo Fukuda said:
Also you should check this link and see by yourself the 350D is
softer than the 300D + Kit lens....

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2005_reviews/rebelxt_samples.html

I checked it, and 350D is NOT softer than 300D. If anything, 350D is very slightly sharper than 300D in those pictures. I'd post 100% crops, but I don't want to violate Steve's copyright.

This is, of course, to be expected. The very soft kit lens is the limiting factor in those shots, both 300D and 350D easily outresolve that lens.

When you put a top notch lens on both cameras, like Canon 135 F2L, 350D clearly resolves more detail than 300D. How do I know? I had both cameras and that lens for two weeks.

Arturo Fukuda said:
The 300D has better acutance than the XT...

It doesn't.

Arturo Fukuda said:
... and if the D70 beats the 300D...

It doesn't.

Arturo Fukuda said:
... so the D70 should be sharper than the XT

Sure. From two false premises, you can conclude pretty much anything.

Show me side-by-side shots of D70 and 350D, done by an independent and objective party, of the same subject and with a similar top-quality lens (50mm primes would be best) that shows D70 to be resolving more detail than 350D, and I'll shut up.

The only thing we have so far is this:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1031&message=13407683

that's done for completely different reasons (noise test), but in those shots you can easily see 350D resolving more detail (licence plate) than D70.

DocDAT · Jun 1, 2005

Frank C. said:
unfortunately 'resolution' is not directly proportional to 'pixel
count' or 'pixel area'... it's a little more involved than that.
Want an example of this? just do the math on Phil's numbers
in his 300D .vs. 350XT comparo here:

I don't really care what you think resolution is or how you define it. Fact of the matter is you can crop about 30% more with the 8 MP image than the 6 MP image and still have the same number of pixels. Wether you want to call that resolution or not isn't really relevant for this discussion.

Member said:
: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos350d/page27.asp

He pegs the increase in rez at about 15% and the extinction
resolutions are virtually identical in both cameras about 5% apart..

Nowhere on the page you linked does he write anything about a percentage difference. It looks like you did the exact thing I wrote in my previous post: Calculated the difference in percent on one axis and used that as a total resolution difference..

Member said:
now hurry on back to school and brush up on your technical skills....

LOL, I think you should check your own first. Or maybe the Nikon fanboy attitude prevents that? Only fanatics could argue that 6MP is the same as 8 MP.

DocDAT · Jun 1, 2005

NickMJr said:
Frank C. said:

YellowBullet said:

NickMJr said:

you must know that D70 has much better sharpnes and resolution like
300D have. so the pictures are sharper than in 300D

Click to expand...

You must know that you're talking nonsense.

Sharpness and resolution aren't any better on D70 than they are on
300D. That's a myth started by Nikon zealouts who just couldn't
handle the fact that Canon simply makes a better sensor than Sony,
so they invented the "fact" that D70 is "sharper".

Click to expand...

Since when does Sony make the sensor for the D70? Do a
careful search and you shall be enlightened...

NickMJr said:

Find me ONE objective review where D70 and 300D are compared in
equal conditions and with similar lenses (NOT the $50 Canon kit
lens vs. a $200 Nikon kit) that shows how D70 has "much better
sharpness and resolution".

350D is slightly sharper and resolves slightly more details than
both 300D and D70 by the virtue of its megapixel advantage. Either
camera will only produce picture as sharp as the lens you put in
front of it.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Frank is right I believe its a Sanyo/Nikon joint venture that
improved the Sony CCD for the D70.

It's still a Sony CCD. Just tweaked by Nikon.

Zerocool · Jun 1, 2005

Thank you Jschizas, for your kind words and insights, I will take your advice...

And to everyone who posted, thank you for your feedback both good and bad. It is appreciated...

Zerocool...

=====================================================

"When I was buying (about a month Ago) my local camera store spent an hour with me.

as I have the 8700, and 5600, the first thing they said was "your used to Nikon's menu's and functions, do you want to learn again"
Second was "Pick it up! What feels right to you"

Third was "What is your primary use?"

Ended up hands down D70, Kit Lens and 70-200 2.8 VR fit me and my needs the best.

Go to the store, even if you don't buy from them (I didn't) and do these things, and think these things.
Don't let a bias magazine or Owner of one or the other decide for you.

Remember if you buying expensive lenses now or in the future your probably going to stay with that brand just to keep your lenses.
Have fun, make the right choice for you, and welcome to the family..."

--
John say's H.S. Football Photography is my hobby.
My wife is my passion

D70 + Kit Lens
70-300 ED
80-200 2.8 VR
CoolPix 8700
Coolpix 5600
Woverine 20 GB

Frank C. · Jun 1, 2005

DocDAT said:
NickMJr said:

Frank C. said:

YellowBullet said:

DocDAT said:

you must know that D70 has much better sharpnes and resolution like
300D have. so the pictures are sharper than in 300D

Click to expand...

You must know that you're talking nonsense.

Sharpness and resolution aren't any better on D70 than they are on
300D. That's a myth started by Nikon zealouts who just couldn't
handle the fact that Canon simply makes a better sensor than Sony,
so they invented the "fact" that D70 is "sharper".

Click to expand...

Since when does Sony make the sensor for the D70? Do a
careful search and you shall be enlightened...

DocDAT said:

Find me ONE objective review where D70 and 300D are compared in
equal conditions and with similar lenses (NOT the $50 Canon kit
lens vs. a $200 Nikon kit) that shows how D70 has "much better
sharpness and resolution".

350D is slightly sharper and resolves slightly more details than
both 300D and D70 by the virtue of its megapixel advantage. Either
camera will only produce picture as sharp as the lens you put in
front of it.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Frank is right I believe its a Sanyo/Nikon joint venture that
improved the Sony CCD for the D70.

Click to expand...

It's still a Sony CCD. Just tweaked by Nikon.

wind blew out of your sails, hey doc?

you can try again some other time =)

Frank C. · Jun 1, 2005

DocDAT said:
Frank C. said:

unfortunately 'resolution' is not directly proportional to 'pixel
count' or 'pixel area'... it's a little more involved than that.
Want an example of this? just do the math on Phil's numbers
in his 300D .vs. 350XT comparo here:

Click to expand...

I don't really care what you think resolution is or how you define
it.

You sure as heck made a big thing about it before:
This is YOU:

"Like I said, you don't measure resolution on one axis. You measure it in area. 30% is 30%"

have a nice day and don't get all in a huff because
you are wrong and left defending the undefendable.
I concur that 8M lets you crop deeper in your pix
but resolution is not increased by as high as you
mentionned.

bye! bye!=)

DocDAT · Jun 1, 2005

Frank C. said:
DocDAT said:

NickMJr said:

Frank C. said:

YellowBullet said:

Member said:

you must know that D70 has much better sharpnes and resolution like
300D have. so the pictures are sharper than in 300D

Click to expand...

You must know that you're talking nonsense.

Sharpness and resolution aren't any better on D70 than they are on
300D. That's a myth started by Nikon zealouts who just couldn't
handle the fact that Canon simply makes a better sensor than Sony,
so they invented the "fact" that D70 is "sharper".

Click to expand...

Since when does Sony make the sensor for the D70? Do a
careful search and you shall be enlightened...

Member said:

Find me ONE objective review where D70 and 300D are compared in
equal conditions and with similar lenses (NOT the $50 Canon kit
lens vs. a $200 Nikon kit) that shows how D70 has "much better
sharpness and resolution".

350D is slightly sharper and resolves slightly more details than
both 300D and D70 by the virtue of its megapixel advantage. Either
camera will only produce picture as sharp as the lens you put in
front of it.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Frank is right I believe its a Sanyo/Nikon joint venture that
improved the Sony CCD for the D70.

Click to expand...

It's still a Sony CCD. Just tweaked by Nikon.

Click to expand...

wind blew out of your sails, hey doc?

you can try again some other time =)

Are you on crack?

PrimeUser · Jun 1, 2005

check out this link from other post

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/micro_stories.pl?ACCT=141412&TICK=NIKON3&STORY=/www/story/04-20-2005/0003439127&EDATE=Apr+20,+2005

Seems this new D50 is trying for shots ready to use straight out of the camera with no post processing.

-------------------------------------------
Advanced digital image processor that marks a further evolution of

analog and digital processing and pre-conditioning technologies, producing images that require no preparation in a computer and are
ready to print straight from the camera. Image quality is optimized,
including auto white balance, auto tone and color control, and real-
time processes diminish digital noise to produce beautiful long
exposure shots.

Zerocool said:
Hi all,

I am a long time reader, first time poster. I find the various info
and opinions here on DPreview very helpful, Thanks.

I would appreciate any and all opinions on what to purchase as my
first DSLR camera. I presently own a Nikon Coolpix 7900 and I am
ready for my first DSLR. Which Camera should I purchase? and what
is more important? CCD vs CMOS, 8.0 MP VS 6.3 etc... in the end I
just want a tool I can enjoy and learn on. I did notice that I
didnt really care for the feel of the Canon XT, However I liked the
specs. The upcoming D50 sounds very promising, SD card etc, but
stiil only 6.3 mp I wonder why? anyway, any knowledgable opinions
are welcomed and appreciated... I know that a post like this is
very subjective, but being a novice I was curious as to which
camera I am better suited for...

Thank you...

DocDAT · Jun 1, 2005

Frank C. said:
DocDAT said:

Frank C. said:

unfortunately 'resolution' is not directly proportional to 'pixel
count' or 'pixel area'... it's a little more involved than that.
Want an example of this? just do the math on Phil's numbers
in his 300D .vs. 350XT comparo here:

Click to expand...

I don't really care what you think resolution is or how you define
it.

Click to expand...

You sure as heck made a big thing about it before:
This is YOU:
"Like I said, you don't measure resolution on one axis. You measure
it in area. 30% is 30%"

OK, I'll spell it out for you: I don't care how YOU define resolution.

Member said:
have a nice day and don't get all in a huff because
you are wrong and left defending the undefendable.

So now when you have no arguments left you just resort to saying "you're wrong".

Since it doesn't seem like you understand my point, I'll spell that out too, using the numbers from your link:

Yes 1850 pixels is ~~15% more than 1600 and 1650 is~~ 15% more than 1450.

BUT 1850x1650 is ~~30% more pixel area than 1600x1450. Pictures are 2 dimensional, not 1 dimensional.~~

Get it?

Member said:
I concur that 8M lets you crop deeper in your pix
but resolution is not increased by as high as you
mentionned.

You can still crop 30% more pixels from the 8 MP image than the 6 MP. Not 15%.

MJHale · Jun 1, 2005

DocDAT said:
Get it?

DocDAT said:

I concur that 8M lets you crop deeper in your pix
but resolution is not increased by as high as you
mentionned.

Click to expand...

You can still crop 30% more pixels from the 8 MP image than the 6
MP. Not 15%.

Exactly right - no matter what blinkered users may think 8MP is always going to have 33% more pixels than 6MP!

Frank C. · Jun 1, 2005

DocDAT said:
Frank C. said:

DocDAT said:

NickMJr said:

Frank C. said:

YellowBullet said:

DocDAT said:

you must know that D70 has much better sharpnes and resolution like
300D have. so the pictures are sharper than in 300D

Click to expand...

You must know that you're talking nonsense.

Sharpness and resolution aren't any better on D70 than they are on
300D. That's a myth started by Nikon zealouts who just couldn't
handle the fact that Canon simply makes a better sensor than Sony,
so they invented the "fact" that D70 is "sharper".

Click to expand...

Since when does Sony make the sensor for the D70? Do a
careful search and you shall be enlightened...

DocDAT said:

Find me ONE objective review where D70 and 300D are compared in
equal conditions and with similar lenses (NOT the $50 Canon kit
lens vs. a $200 Nikon kit) that shows how D70 has "much better
sharpness and resolution".

350D is slightly sharper and resolves slightly more details than
both 300D and D70 by the virtue of its megapixel advantage. Either
camera will only produce picture as sharp as the lens you put in
front of it.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Frank is right I believe its a Sanyo/Nikon joint venture that
improved the Sony CCD for the D70.

Click to expand...

It's still a Sony CCD. Just tweaked by Nikon.

Click to expand...

wind blew out of your sails, hey doc?

you can try again some other time =)

Click to expand...

Are you on crack?

yurr pre-med hey?... you scare me dude.

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