Welcome to DSLR world and I hope to see your entries just about everywhere
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Regards
alexeig
http://www.pbase.com/alexeig
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Regards
alexeig
http://www.pbase.com/alexeig
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Welcome to the new forums! Please read this first. For known issues we are working to resolve, click here.
*** CTF Challenge 81 – Perspective Disproportion ***
- Thread starter Abstract
- Start date
Nugar
Veteran Member
Hi Sal,
I don't own L glass.
But that image is in fact leaning to the soft side. More so that you already applied USM.
If you want to see sharp images taken with L glass, you can point your browser to: http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/board/49
--
Humberto Olarte Cupas
http://nugar.com/
http://panamarts.com/
I don't own L glass.
But that image is in fact leaning to the soft side. More so that you already applied USM.
If you want to see sharp images taken with L glass, you can point your browser to: http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/board/49
--
Humberto Olarte Cupas
http://nugar.com/
http://panamarts.com/
Sal Baker
Veteran Member
I only applied enough USM to bring the resized image back to the original. As I mentioned, the camera's in-camera softening was set to zero. There is indeed a lot of room to add much more USM to this image if that's what you like, but for a portrait, I think it is too sharp already. Thanks for your opinion though.
As to the link, great shots. But at those sizes many of the shots seem over-sharpened with lots of USM, and seem more a tribute to Photoshop (and photographer) skills than an objective test of lens sharpness. I don't think that L-glass is always just "sharper" than cheaper lenses. The real advantage of L-glass is that the sharpness is consistent from corner to corner at all focal lengths and apertures. The kit lens is just as sharp, but only at a few focal lengths, and shut down to f8. L-glass has better contrast too, but that to can be simulated in Photoshop using LAC, etc. for web postings. Fine-quality prints is where the difference will show.
Sal
Nugar
Veteran Member
Well,
As you say, it is rather subjective.
All I can say is that I detect a noticeable difference between the kit lens and my other two lenses, which, while not L glass are regarded as good lenses, the Tamron 28-75/2.8 and the Sigma 70-200/2.8.
I can't say that those are as good as an L glass, because I don't have L glass. But I can say they are better than the kit lens, which now remains stashed in its box.
Best regards,
--
Humberto Olarte Cupas
http://nugar.com/
http://panamarts.com/
As you say, it is rather subjective.
All I can say is that I detect a noticeable difference between the kit lens and my other two lenses, which, while not L glass are regarded as good lenses, the Tamron 28-75/2.8 and the Sigma 70-200/2.8.
I can't say that those are as good as an L glass, because I don't have L glass. But I can say they are better than the kit lens, which now remains stashed in its box.
Best regards,
--
Humberto Olarte Cupas
http://nugar.com/
http://panamarts.com/
pfehlauer
Well-known member
Sorry again for making you people wait... I'll pay my debt... I need to win again to host my first challenge ;-)
Many thanks to Abs for hosting this challenge and proposing such an interesting topic.
I will respond some messages on the thread for the challenge I won, since I owe some responses to some of you.
For now, I will think about my entry for this challenge.
Best regards to all, see you around.
--
Pedro
'The opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of my employer, not necessarily mine, and probably not necessary'
Many thanks to Abs for hosting this challenge and proposing such an interesting topic.
I will respond some messages on the thread for the challenge I won, since I owe some responses to some of you.
For now, I will think about my entry for this challenge.
Best regards to all, see you around.
--
Pedro
'The opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of my employer, not necessarily mine, and probably not necessary'
rodbam
Veteran Member
Gday Sal
That's as good a portrait as I would wish to take with any lens, lovely soft lighting & a nice feel to it, what more could we want. As you say people seem to be looking at sharpness & saturation as the be all of photography. I would imagine a good Photoshop worker could turn an instamatic shot into an L lens shot. L lenses have gained almost God like status here on the forums & the difference might be seen on a 20" x 30" blow ups. 30yrs ago the old saying was “light is sharpness” so if I want a tack sharp shot I make sure I have good light to shoot by & like you I don’t want tack sharp in a portrait.
We have a couple of posters here with L lenses, aam & Dorys who are learning photography & a lot of their shots posted here from a few months ago were very average to look at regarding lens quality. Shots with far better sharpness & contrast were coming from the P&S cameras & generic lenses on Dslrs. Now as their skills have increased we are seeing some really nice shots from these two, which only goes to show it's the creativity & skill of the photographer that makes a good photograph not the lens.
I was only kidding in my first post about the kit lens as we got home from the show at dusk & I only took some flash shots inside which showed very good sharpness. Just for fun I posted the blurred shot & referred to the soft issues raised about the kit lens. I was up at the crack of dawn this morning & took some shots around the back yard none of which are very impressive but coming from the G2 I don't know where I am with the new camera yet. I was looking for the close up button, there isn't one but there is on the main dial so I put it on that & the flash kept popping up & I couldn't choose my own settings. I thought geez the G2 is better for close ups then the new camera. It didn't occur to me until I put the camera down that you probably don't need a close up button as does the G2 because the Dslr will focus to its minimum distance without pressing buttons
So as you can see I need a week or two to get used to the camera & the good shots will start to emerge..................I hope
Regards Rod
That's as good a portrait as I would wish to take with any lens, lovely soft lighting & a nice feel to it, what more could we want. As you say people seem to be looking at sharpness & saturation as the be all of photography. I would imagine a good Photoshop worker could turn an instamatic shot into an L lens shot. L lenses have gained almost God like status here on the forums & the difference might be seen on a 20" x 30" blow ups. 30yrs ago the old saying was “light is sharpness” so if I want a tack sharp shot I make sure I have good light to shoot by & like you I don’t want tack sharp in a portrait.
We have a couple of posters here with L lenses, aam & Dorys who are learning photography & a lot of their shots posted here from a few months ago were very average to look at regarding lens quality. Shots with far better sharpness & contrast were coming from the P&S cameras & generic lenses on Dslrs. Now as their skills have increased we are seeing some really nice shots from these two, which only goes to show it's the creativity & skill of the photographer that makes a good photograph not the lens.
I was only kidding in my first post about the kit lens as we got home from the show at dusk & I only took some flash shots inside which showed very good sharpness. Just for fun I posted the blurred shot & referred to the soft issues raised about the kit lens. I was up at the crack of dawn this morning & took some shots around the back yard none of which are very impressive but coming from the G2 I don't know where I am with the new camera yet. I was looking for the close up button, there isn't one but there is on the main dial so I put it on that & the flash kept popping up & I couldn't choose my own settings. I thought geez the G2 is better for close ups then the new camera. It didn't occur to me until I put the camera down that you probably don't need a close up button as does the G2 because the Dslr will focus to its minimum distance without pressing buttons
So as you can see I need a week or two to get used to the camera & the good shots will start to emerge..................I hope Regards Rod
rodbam
Veteran Member
Are you sober now?
Regards Rod
Regards Rod
pfehlauer
Well-known member
...not... in the last 48 hours I slept just one... yesterday was tequila night until 6am today... slept on the plane, then on the bus... and now in front of the the computer...zzzzzzzz..oops...sorry, I think I will go to bed....
bye....
--
Pedro
'The opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of my employer, not necessarily mine, and probably not necessary'
bye....
--
Pedro
'The opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of my employer, not necessarily mine, and probably not necessary'
Nugar
Veteran Member
Do I think the portrait is good? Yes!!!
The light is excellent, the portrait favors the subjects, and doesn't expose too much the character lines.
Great image, but the kit lens cannot be compared to an L.
Do I know exactly what an L lens can do? No I don't because I don't own one.
I can only speak from what I have and I do notice the difference in quality. And Ls are supposed to be better than what I have. Tomorrow, if I have the time I'll try to take a couple of shots at 50mm, which is common distance of the Tamron and the Kit and compare. Note that the kit lens I got is not the USM motor version.
I will in a moment also look for a picture I took with the Sigma that showcases its sharpness.
--
Humberto Olarte Cupas
http://nugar.com/
http://panamarts.com/
The light is excellent, the portrait favors the subjects, and doesn't expose too much the character lines.
Great image, but the kit lens cannot be compared to an L.
Do I know exactly what an L lens can do? No I don't because I don't own one.
I can only speak from what I have and I do notice the difference in quality. And Ls are supposed to be better than what I have. Tomorrow, if I have the time I'll try to take a couple of shots at 50mm, which is common distance of the Tamron and the Kit and compare. Note that the kit lens I got is not the USM motor version.
I will in a moment also look for a picture I took with the Sigma that showcases its sharpness.
--
Humberto Olarte Cupas
http://nugar.com/
http://panamarts.com/
photogenix
Forum Enthusiast
Abs
I have removed the off-topic pic from the exhibition gallery.
Visiting NYC tomorrow. want to shoot some pictures for this challenge. Could you provide some feedback on the following 2 pics(in terms of being on-topic), this will help me in framing the subjects.
Thank you
RK
I have removed the off-topic pic from the exhibition gallery.
Visiting NYC tomorrow. want to shoot some pictures for this challenge. Could you provide some feedback on the following 2 pics(in terms of being on-topic), this will help me in framing the subjects.
Thank you
RK
Nugar
Veteran Member
As I stated on my past post, I found a picture I took once with the Sigma 70-200mm/2.8 at f/8. The EXIF is at the end of this post.
The first image shows the whole image, resized to 650px wide. Although there is an halo around the head of the swimmer, it is not due to sharpening, since this image was not sharpened. It was taken in RAW, and saturated, but not sharpened at all
The second image is a crop of the first one at 100%, that is one pixel of image to one pixel of screen. This image has no sharpening , not in camera, not in photoshop, no USM. Remember, the image was taken in RAW and processed without sharpening at all. Notice the goggles on the swimmer:
Again, this lens is considered near, but not quite, L quality. To me, there is no comparison.
Date/Time: 2005:01:21 12:38:03
Shutter speed: 1/800 sec
Aperture: 8
Exposure mode: Av
Flash: Off
Metering mode: Evaluative
Self-timer: 65 secs
ISO: 200
Focal length: 200mm
Image size: 650 x 433
Rotation: none
Color profile: IEC 61966-2.1 Default RGB colour space - sRGB
Best regards,
--
Humberto Olarte Cupas
http://nugar.com/
http://panamarts.com/
The first image shows the whole image, resized to 650px wide. Although there is an halo around the head of the swimmer, it is not due to sharpening, since this image was not sharpened. It was taken in RAW, and saturated, but not sharpened at all
The second image is a crop of the first one at 100%, that is one pixel of image to one pixel of screen. This image has no sharpening , not in camera, not in photoshop, no USM. Remember, the image was taken in RAW and processed without sharpening at all. Notice the goggles on the swimmer:
Again, this lens is considered near, but not quite, L quality. To me, there is no comparison.
Date/Time: 2005:01:21 12:38:03
Shutter speed: 1/800 sec
Aperture: 8
Exposure mode: Av
Flash: Off
Metering mode: Evaluative
Self-timer: 65 secs
ISO: 200
Focal length: 200mm
Image size: 650 x 433
Rotation: none
Color profile: IEC 61966-2.1 Default RGB colour space - sRGB
Best regards,
--
Humberto Olarte Cupas
http://nugar.com/
http://panamarts.com/
thank you. i appreciate it.
RK, you are making me walk on a sword's edge with border-line cases...
first one is on-topic...nice perspective shot and the disproportion is huge.
while the 2nd shot is "technically" on-topic because there is disproportion present (church almost seems bigger) but still the photograph has the "right" feel to it...so off-topic...
frankly, these kind of shots i had not in my mind, while deciding the topic and i thought the given examples should have clarified any doubts about the theme. i couldnt have described the level of "disproportion" in words anyways.
hope this helps...good luck.
'Abstract'
http://www.abstract.photoshare.co.nz
rodbam
Veteran Member
From what I can gather the way the lens testers separate the differing quality of the lenses is by doing the 100% crops as you did to show the differences. These 100% crops I've read is the same as viewing at 20"x30" so if you only print 8x10 or A4 the kit lens at F8 may not differ very much from an L lens.
Can you see a difference in resolving power in your lenses at the sizes we view here? Of course there are other advantages to L or quality lenses as you can crop the shot for printing & retain better quality.
I would think most people would go for an L lens if they were free, but to pay all that money & not see much or any difference at the sizes we view has to be taken into consideration when saying one lens is better than another for the average photographer.
The same goes when a lens has CA they blow the shot up to the equivalent of 20"x30" to show the CA as it’s very hard to see at normal viewing sizes.
Mind you after seeing the size of the prints at the photo show we may all need 16mp & L glass in the near future.
Regards Rod
Can you see a difference in resolving power in your lenses at the sizes we view here? Of course there are other advantages to L or quality lenses as you can crop the shot for printing & retain better quality.
I would think most people would go for an L lens if they were free, but to pay all that money & not see much or any difference at the sizes we view has to be taken into consideration when saying one lens is better than another for the average photographer.
The same goes when a lens has CA they blow the shot up to the equivalent of 20"x30" to show the CA as it’s very hard to see at normal viewing sizes.
Mind you after seeing the size of the prints at the photo show we may all need 16mp & L glass in the near future.
Regards Rod
rodbam
Veteran Member
As the 55mm-200mm has really good reviews. I'm in total frustration at the moment, too much at once I don't know what button to press I'm getting some shocking blown highlights, no wonder everyone wanted to keep them None of my shots so far have much sharpness, the exposures are not real good. I can remember this feeling when I first got the G2 so hopefully time will take care of my learning curve
The main thing is I do look good with the 350D & the manly grip, I feel very mucho
Regards Rod
None of my shots so far have much sharpness, the exposures are not real good. I can remember this feeling when I first got the G2 so hopefully time will take care of my learning curveThe main thing is I do look good with the 350D & the manly grip, I feel very mucho
Regards Rod
MaxinAus
Leading Member
Hey Rod ... congratulations on your purchase.
I'm so undecided as to what lens to buy.
I like the 18 wide end of the kit and I find the 55 is way too short for me a lot of the time, so I'm interested in the 55 - 200 you bought. Jazz festival in a few weeks and I need a longer zoom. Meanwhile I'm learning with the kit.
This one hand held at night 1/20th sec. ISO 1600 NO sharpenning in camera or software !
Regards,
Max ...
Squeeze the shutter - don't push.
Show us some picys then.
I'm so undecided as to what lens to buy.
I like the 18 wide end of the kit and I find the 55 is way too short for me a lot of the time, so I'm interested in the 55 - 200 you bought. Jazz festival in a few weeks and I need a longer zoom. Meanwhile I'm learning with the kit.
Well I am shooting mostly in Aperture mode to control DOF and contolling speed with ISO.
This one hand held at night 1/20th sec. ISO 1600 NO sharpenning in camera or software !
I'm sure it will.I'm getting some shocking blown highlights, no wonder everyone
wanted to keep them
the exposures are not real good. I can remember this feeling when I
first got the G2 so hopefully time will take care of my learning
curve
That's macho.The main thing is I do look good with the 350D & the manly grip, I
feel very mucho
Regards,
Max ...
Squeeze the shutter - don't push.
rodbam
Veteran Member
Rod wrote
Gday Max
I have very little to show for this weekend as we got home from the show Saturday as it was getting near dark & Sunday I had to go back into the show to pick up the 55-200. I got back about 1pm & just took a couple of shots with the 200. All my shots so far are really rubbish with blown highlights & shots of nothing that don't look very sharp. I'm still trying to work out whether to just use the centre focusing point for exposure & focus as I did with the G2. So I only have two shots from the 18-55. Adam T who seems to tell it like it is has given the 55-200 very good reviews, he even uses it on his 1ds for a walk around lens. Other reviews said it was the best lens for the $400us & under category.
Here's a couple from the 18-55 & one from the 55-200 which I don't think will help you at all.
The 55-200 shot at 200mm F8 1000sec iso 400 aperture priority post & usm
18-55 close up at 54mm F8 1/60sec iso400 AP post & usm
& the best general shot of the day as far as sharpness & exposure & the bleeding wife took it 18-55 at 24mm F8 1/125sec iso400 AP post & usm but this seemed to look good straight from the camera, the picy not me
My best worst general shot of the day which will turn you right off getting the 55-200 just resized in PS no USM or post processing so you can judge the lens better. But I'm positive far better than this can be done with this lens. At 100mm F8 1/80sec (hand held oops) iso400 AP .That's not a blown highlight it's backlighting & very artistic...NOT
My senses are in overload this weekend I just need a quite week to play with the camera. Judging by your early shots with your camera Max I'm sure you could get far better shots with the 55-200 if it has enough zoom for your needs.
Regards Rod
Ha ha thanks Max. Can I change it to mucho macho?That's macho.feel very mucho
Gday Max
I have very little to show for this weekend as we got home from the show Saturday as it was getting near dark & Sunday I had to go back into the show to pick up the 55-200. I got back about 1pm & just took a couple of shots with the 200. All my shots so far are really rubbish with blown highlights & shots of nothing that don't look very sharp. I'm still trying to work out whether to just use the centre focusing point for exposure & focus as I did with the G2. So I only have two shots from the 18-55. Adam T who seems to tell it like it is has given the 55-200 very good reviews, he even uses it on his 1ds for a walk around lens. Other reviews said it was the best lens for the $400us & under category.
Here's a couple from the 18-55 & one from the 55-200 which I don't think will help you at all.
The 55-200 shot at 200mm F8 1000sec iso 400 aperture priority post & usm
18-55 close up at 54mm F8 1/60sec iso400 AP post & usm
& the best general shot of the day as far as sharpness & exposure & the bleeding wife took it
18-55 at 24mm F8 1/125sec iso400 AP post & usm but this seemed to look good straight from the camera, the picy not me
My best worst general shot of the day which will turn you right off getting the 55-200 just resized in PS no USM or post processing so you can judge the lens better. But I'm positive far better than this can be done with this lens. At 100mm F8 1/80sec (hand held oops)
iso400 AP .That's not a blown highlight it's backlighting & very artistic...NOT
My senses are in overload this weekend
I just need a quite week to play with the camera. Judging by your early shots with your camera Max I'm sure you could get far better shots with the 55-200 if it has enough zoom for your needs.Regards Rod
Nugar
Veteran Member
This is a good point, I haven't do it, so I don't know how they compare. I'll try it one of these days.
I can't claim to be able to tell between two images if one was taken with L glass and the other with the kit lens at these sizes, although if you see for example my entries on the challenge you hosted (all with the kit lens), you'll detect a certain... "porosity?" "granularity?"... a certain lack of definition. Even a lack of brightness.
You're right in this. But you may change your opinion once you start buying other lenses. BTW, I do recommend the Tamron and the Sigma. You can read reviews of these lenses at http://www.fredmiranda.com
It is said that the 1Ds and the 1DsII outresolve even L glass. I don't know and I don't think I'll be able to find out for a long time.
Congratulations on your new camera. I'm sure you'll take some great photographs with it. Don't forget a tripod. I got one, a Vivitar Pro 100, for about US$60 or so and it is sturdy enough for my camera and lenses, where the old one wasn't. No ball head etc, but it sure does the job.
Regards,
--
Humberto Olarte Cupas
http://nugar.com/
http://panamarts.com/
photocat
Leading Member
Welcome to the DSLR world!!! I hope you enjoy your new camera. Don't loose your photographers eye just because you have a new equipment, although DSLR might have a learning curve. One week from now we need better pictures from you than the sample you gave here...
-Cat
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--Photocat
http://www.pbase.com/photocat
'It is what we think we know already that often prevents us from learning' -- Claud Bernard.
pfehlauer
Well-known member
Welcome to the DSLR club...
--
Pedro
'The opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of my employer, not necessarily mine, and probably not necessary'
--
Pedro
'The opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of my employer, not necessarily mine, and probably not necessary'
Hergest Ridge
Leading Member
Abs,
In reply to the above in Jstrongs egg shot you say ' Ihope you and all other posters take it positively" I have to say i'm really enjoying this one as it's making me sit down and think of ideas before i even pick up the camera and then because of the difficulty of getting the image as i want i'm having to learn more about the camera, especially regarding focus. I have 4 or 5 ideas going around my head that hopefully will evolve into 2 more entries over the next week or so but whether they do or not it's really using my brain which is what i prefer most of all in a challenge rather than shoot an image just off hand and then try to fit it into the theme.
Great fun
Regards
Paul
In reply to the above in Jstrongs egg shot you say ' Ihope you and all other posters take it positively" I have to say i'm really enjoying this one as it's making me sit down and think of ideas before i even pick up the camera and then because of the difficulty of getting the image as i want i'm having to learn more about the camera, especially regarding focus. I have 4 or 5 ideas going around my head that hopefully will evolve into 2 more entries over the next week or so but whether they do or not it's really using my brain which is what i prefer most of all in a challenge rather than shoot an image just off hand and then try to fit it into the theme.
Great fun
Regards
Paul
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