DSC-V3: How I Feel About It Now (1/2)

Petteri Sulonen

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Hiya, folks --

Some of you may remember the pretty lengthy postings I made on the Sony DSC-V3 I bought for the "take-anywhere" mission. I even wrote it up on my website: [ http://194.100.88.243/petteri/pont/Reviews/aa_Sony_DSC-V3/_Sony_DSC-V3.html ].

At the time, my preliminary verdict could be summed up as "great build, lightning-fast, sucky viewfinder, some design/usability niggles, OK image quality."

In the meantime, I've been carrying the camera in my satchel, and I've been using it to take pictures when the whim takes me, and I haven't gone out especially to shoot them. And in fact I've caught a few that are among the ones I like best from the past couple of years.



It hasn't really changed much. I'm still pretty happy with the camera, it gets the "take-anywhere" mission done fine, and I can't think of another camera in this class that's currently available that I'd rather have. So far, so good.

However, I had been hoping that I'd get used to the design/usability niggles -- and, in fact, I have gotten used to some of them. But unfortunately, others have in fact started to grate more, and a few that I liked originally I like less now.

First the good news. I have in fact gotten used to the form of the camera, which felt somewhat awkward to start with. I rarely have trouble finding the shutter release anymore, and only occasionally get my finger in front of the silly optical viewfinder. I still like the streamlined menu system.

And the thing that continues to amaze me, the one absolutely killer feature this camera has, is that it is F-A-S-T. I've never missed a shot with it because it focused too slowly or didn't focus at all.

So, with the excellent metering and focus performance, I'm willing to forgive a lot.

Another thing I like is the tonality and color rendition, with everything "turned down" -- the pictures have a very subtle, quiet look to them, and post-process quite well. The camera meters extremely well, and holds highlight and shadow detail nicely.



The lens is highly resistant to flare and handles backlight very well.



Then the bad.

One thing that drives me up the wall is that the camera shuts itself down within a couple of minutes of inactivity, or whenever I switch to playback mode for viewing pictures. I want to have the camera ready to shoot now when it's on my wrist. If I have to wait two, three seconds for the lens to extend, the shot will often be long gone. As far as I can tell, there's no way of changing this behaviour. If I'm wrong, someone please tell me how it can be done.

Another thing that I had originally thought wasn't too significant but that I've grown to dislike more is the pretty aggressive noise reduction even at low ISO. This means that fine, low-contrast detail gets "mushed out." You can't see it in screen-size images, but it's pretty readily apparent when printing even at 8 x 10, if the picture has that kind of detail. This one, for example:



I would much rather have a bit more noise if it meant I could retain a bit more texture detail.

One thing that I think Sony should be able to do better is automatic white balance. I've found that it's "off" more often than not, even in fairly easy lighting such as regular daylight. I've stopped using it, and tried to remember to set the presets instead. This is slightly annoying since it means I'm shooting differently with the PnS than with the dSLR (I use RAW with the latter, so the AWB doesn't really matter that much), and introduces another potential error source.

A few more "field notes."

The lens has a good deal of barrel distortion at the wide end (which isn't that wide to start with). Since that's how I mostly use it, it occasionally becomes a problem. I've in fact taken to correcting the distortion in post-processing -- something I haven't done with other cameras and lenses I've used. Not a huge deal, but something to keep in mind anyway -- and something I think shouldn't be too difficult to correct in-camera, at least for JPEG's.

The build is holding up fine, although I've really been abusing the camera. The paint has come off from a few points, and the markings on the slick mode dial are starting to chip -- this is a bit worrying since if they come off completely, I will have a problem.

I still don't like framing off the LCD. Yeah, it's big, but it's not that easy to see in bright daylight (now that we have some), and I find holding the camera out to be awkward and unstable. Again, please could we have a decent optical VF? Pretty please?

And I find the control system somewhat confusing. The jog dial that I originally liked isn't quite as fluid as I thought after all; it's too easy to make "false presses" and change the wrong settings, or have to correct them, and so on. IOW, the idea is good but the implementation needs a bit of work -- make the dial a bit bigger and the movements a bit more positive and requiring a bit more pressure. And as I mentioned in the article, the overall control layout seems just a bit haphazard -- as if the designers put the buttons wherever they would fit instead of thinking of it in a "photographer-centric" way.



But the bottom line is that I still don't think there's anything on the market that's much better for the job. Unfortunately, this reflects the state of the market more than any brilliant design by Sony.

Petteri
--
Me on photography: [ http://www.prime-junta.tk/ ]
Me on politics: [ http://p-on-p.blogspot.com/ ]
 
My wishlist for the Sony DSC-V4 would be (in no particular order):

+ A real optical viewfinder. Please?

+ Tilt or swivel for the LCD, even if it makes it smaller. If you have to have an LCD, you might as well make it tilt/swivel -- that'll leverage its greatest advantage, the freedom to use a variety of shooting positions.

+ Control over auto power-off. I want the camera to be shooting-ready all the time. Why not just auto power-off the LCD and the live sampling from the sensor? That ought to cut down power consumption to near zero, but keep the camera ready to shoot.

+ More refined ergonomics. At least "shooting priority" image review, a better-designed jog dial, a better fit for the hand, better thought-out control buttons. (For example, there are two ways of going into adjusting exposure compensation, only one of which works consistently. You can push the jog dial, roll it over the AEC number, push again, and roll to set. Then push, roll, push to go back to its usual function. However, there's also a dedicated button for going directly into AEC adjustment mode -- but pushing it again does not restore the jog dial to its usual function. Odd!)

+ A better sensor/processing pipeline. Fewer megapixels if needed (four would be fine), but better texture detail at low ISO, even if it meant a tad more noise. The image quality at low ISO really isn't any better than on my old PowerShot S40 -- even when you factor in the extra MP. At high ISO it is a great deal better, of course. Fuji's shown that a very nice iSO800 is feasible on a high-res sensor of this size. I would like that, very much.

+ Buffered RAW (with third-party support). Pretty please?

Personally, I would also prefer a bright prime (say, 35/1.4 equivalent) rather than the zoom the camera currently has, but that's unlikely to happen. Hey, even better if it's built around an APS-C sensor... but we can always dream, I guess...

Anyway, I would still recommend the camera for the mission I bought it, and I would probably buy it again... but I will switch if something a good deal nicer hits the market.

Petteri
--
Me on photography: [ http://www.prime-junta.tk/ ]
Me on politics: [ http://p-on-p.blogspot.com/ ]
 
Good to hear your comments after using the camera for a while. I think these kind of user's reports and second opinions are actually more helpful than the tech-focused reviews available on websites such as this one (and others).

I recently purchased the camera after reading your original review/user's report on your website. I bought it mainly to do street and travel photography, so size and sufficient manual controls coupled with a very good price (€400) were the main reasons for my choice.

As I only just received it I can't comment on the issues you brought up, but I agree that a better viewfinder and fixed and faster lens would be really nice. And if Sony could make the lenses interchangeable, then that would be great!

I'll post my views and some pictures on this forum once I've used it for a while.
 
I'll show it to my friend who is trying to choose a camera now...

--
MadCat108

 
Hello, Petteri.....you have way too much time on your hands.

........Blue

.
--
JUDGE BUSTER
 
Thanks for the useful "second review" and the useful comments from others. On that issue of auto-shutoff, and the time it takes to power on again, speaking as a current V1 user, contemplating a V3 purchase, it is a big disappointment to me that the V3 seems no better than the V1 as far as power-up time is concerned.

This really was one of the anticipated improvements.

I am still convinced it is probably one of the best cameras around in its class though, and would recommend it to my daughter for her first semi-serious digital camera, mainly for the great manual control.
 
I too have turned down all in cam processing for the jpgs as I think the sharpening impacts the image q as much as the noise reduction. The detail mush (what I referred to once as smearing) is a little disappointing when it appears but thankfully it can be reduced. If I was doing a high res enlargement of a stationary object I would definitely stack multiple images. Unfortunately most IR shots involve clouds and trees and both want to move here. ~ m²
--

'Brothers and sisters, we've been told there's some bad bokeh going around' ~ Wavy Gravy at Photokina

 
I agree with most of what you are saying about the V3. I have had it for almost three months now and love the camera, but I do not like the viewfinder when you attach the lens adapter and/or the tele lens to the adapter. Now the VF is cut off 1/3rd and you have a hard time zeroing in on a subject when you can only see a little more than half through the VF.

Also, yes, the jog wheel is a problem. The jog wheel on my 717 is larger, stronger and more positive and doesn't slip back into neutral when you need to jog the aperature etc. That could be upgraded on the V3 if Sony will only listen to its customers. And also, why or why couldn't they make the LCD shift like the G3 or G6 (Canon)? I guess that's not possible due to the size of the camera and the LCD.

Oh well, regardless of the setbacks (as with many cameras new on the market) I still think the V3 is a super prosumer camera and I'd recommend it to anyone who wants a great camera without all the weight when on a field trip.

Keep shooting, friend, and love the V3...so many of us do.
--
Bob
 
Petteri Sulonen wrote:
....
have to have an LCD, you might as well make it tilt/swivel --
that'll leverage its greatest advantage, the freedom to use a
variety of shooting positions.
I wonder if this was a cost-cutting decision? It is probably more reliable by not having a swivel, if nothing else.
+ Control over auto power-off. I want the camera to be
shooting-ready all the time.
I don't know why they didn't put this in the setup menu. Seems simple enough to me....

....
+ A better sensor/processing pipeline. Fewer megapixels if needed
(four would be fine),
Have you tried setting the V3 to 3 or 5mp and see if it looks any better?
but better texture detail at low ISO, even if
it meant a tad more noise. The image quality at low ISO really
isn't any better than on my old PowerShot S40 -- even when you
factor in the extra MP. At high ISO it is a great deal better, of
Did you compare the two side-by-side?

If I zoom in enough, I can see various flaws, but there should be a way to quantify how much detail is lost. I know it does dark-frame subtraction at low shutter speeds, but you think it does a standard NR at normal speeds? Zooming into 7mp is pretty extreme.

Keep in mind that it's not as if you'll get 7mp out of a 7mp sensor, with the interpolation. That's why I was wondering if you'd tried the lower resolutions.

...
+ Buffered RAW (with third-party support). Pretty please?
For 3rd party RAW support, have you checked out UFRaw?
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=13425897
Now, I've got to make more use of RAW!
Personally, I would also prefer a bright prime (say, 35/1.4
equivalent) rather than the zoom the camera currently has, but
...

I dunno, the zoom is handy.

....
Anyway, I would still recommend the camera for the mission I bought
it, and I would probably buy it again... but I will switch if
something a good deal nicer hits the market.
I can't justify buying a new camera every year, so I'm going to make this thing work for me. ;-) Fortunately, I like it, mostly.

--
Gary W.
 
Buffered Raw would be the biggest godsend to this type of camera. It is very slow. BTW, why is it that a Sony Raw for a 7mp images is about 13mb, while eg. a Canon 1dII 8mp raw is about 9mb?

FYI, are you aware that PS CS2 supports the V3 Raws now? I played briefly with this, and results are very good. The "noise" suppression you've noted with jpegs disappears though -- for good and bad.
My wishlist for the Sony DSC-V4 would be (in no particular order):

+ Buffered RAW (with third-party support). Pretty please?

Petteri
--
Me on photography: [ http://www.prime-junta.tk/ ]
Me on politics: [ http://p-on-p.blogspot.com/ ]
 
Buffered Raw would be the biggest godsend to this type of camera.
It is very slow.
Could be worse. After about 5 seconds, I start to get impatient, but at just over 11 sec. on my Sandisk, it is tolerable for the few times I use it. The only problem are situations where things are constantly moving and changing, and you're not ready for the next opportunity.... I mostly don't like the disk space used by RAW. Filling up a CD every month would be annoying.
BTW, why is it that a Sony Raw for a 7mp images
is about 13mb, while eg. a Canon 1dII 8mp raw is about 9mb?
I think I read that Canon compresses their file (lossless) and Sony does not. That would explain it anyway. Even so, the Sony file must have a lot of dynamic range (one would hope) to justify that file size. :-)
FYI, are you aware that PS CS2 supports the V3 Raws now? I played
briefly with this, and results are very good. The "noise"
I have no plans to purchase PS CS2, but I tried UFRaw (see my other post), and have been pretty pleased by the results so far. I think there's a lot of detail, and of course, it's great being able to control the exposure so that you don't overexpose too much.

If I can put up with the delay, I would like to make more use of RAW, especially after seeing all of the fine control I have.

Unfortunately, most of the time, I'm left with JPEG, so I'm still trying to find the ideal balance.
suppression you've noted with jpegs disappears though -- for good
and bad.
I had wondered how much of this perceived "noise reduction" was more of a muddying by JPEG. (Do you think as part of the conversion to JPEG a bit of post-processing is done to make the JPEG look smoother and less artifacty?) I usually use "standard", which looks fine as long as you don't zoom too close. Get it at 200% or beyond, and you can really notice it! But it still gives a lot of detail with a good file size, so I'd rather do that (than, oh, I dunno, use 3mp at fine).

As far as overall camera performance, most of the time I love it, but occasionally I get some photos that are just not quite right (blurry as if they were out of focus?), and I don't know why. At least if it's set to f8.0 I would know why.... ;-)

--
Gary W.
 
I've had mine since last December and most of the V3 'glow' is still in place for me but as with all things, continual use does expose some shortcomings. I agree with most of your post Petteri particularly the viewfinder and power-down points.

One of the slightly sore points I have concerns the corner softness of the lens wide open at F2.8 which is the default condition for IR - and I do a lot of IR, altho' most disappears when you zoom in a bit.

I really would like some way to move the focus point across the frame for street photography as a recent trip to Venice gave me some problems when it picked up the background or an insignificant foreground area. Focus accuracy wise I couldn't be happier - VERY fast and accurate with rare hunting. In many ways this is an ideal street camera so a one stop faster lens and rapidly movable focus point would make it a real asset.

Handling-wise, I find the macro setting too easy to accidently activate which does produce a hardly perceptible overall diffused effect but thats probably down to my large hands/fingers/thumbs. In that regard the V3's overall size is ok - any smaller would not suit me :o)

I use the V3 every day (6000+ pictures) and generally find battery life ok. I managed 200+ per day in Venice with 1 spare 3rd party battery (which is nowhere near as good as the sony item) including a lot of zooming and reviewing but no flash (I hardly ever use the flash - just as well since it has no reach). I have had no problems with memory cards, either Ultra II cf or MS Pro.

Image quality is a huge step up from my last 4Mp digicam so overall no harsh complaints there. I do use raw occasionally but am still struggling with getting realistic skin tones but again that's probably down to me.
Would I recommend this camera? - absolutely :-)
mark
--
Pixels proliferate but film is more precious.
 
It has swivel for the LCD and is a lot better camera than the
mediocre V3.
The weight of your camera on your neck is cutting the circulation to your brain, making you believe that PF is sweet...

--



DANdeMAN Vee3 (03-2005) Next one will be a P&S ;^)
Events do not happen because you think about them......
You think about them because they are going to happen.
 
I thought I would chime in. First nice to see all the V3 owners in one thread :) (surely there are more V3 owners here?) I agree, I think there is allot to like about the V3... wonderful resolution, sharpness and quick focus. On the other hand the ergonomics have been pretty poor; an unusable viewfinder, the aptly named jog wheel that jogs without guidance from one setting to the next (no positive press/depress?) and sometimes the feeling I need an extra hand when setting manual white balance. (try holding camera, grey card and pressing white balance settings with 2 hands :)

I've seen beautiful V3 photos from forum members here... but for reasons both tanglible and intangible...I've decided the V3 and I are perhaps not a good match.

...I ordered a Canon 350D body today. My first DSLR. After seeing stunning 20D canon images ocassionally posted here, reading endless reviews and handling the 350D in store...I'm hoping this will be a more suitable camera for me to learn photography. (It will have to be, since I don't see a new camera for me until the year 2020 ).

I'm envisioning the V3 as the better camera in some situations? I hope so. But also thinking I'll enjoy learning about lenses (but not thier expense : ), depth of field, ISO settings and with luck producing images that have a dynamic range and color that is more what I'm looking for. I intend to keep posting here as I know I have not scratched the surface of what a V3 can do. The help on the sony forum has been invaluable, so appreciated and would be sorely missed.

David

Sony V3 photos http://davidg01.blogspot.com
 
... is a F/2.0 lens.

Sony used to have lens which gathers much light
 
My main axe is a Canon dSLR too. Trouble is, it's too big to come with me everywhere, while the V3 knocks around in my satchel with no trouble. They complement each other very well.

Petteri
--
Me on photography: [ http://www.prime-junta.tk/ ]
Me on politics: [ http://p-on-p.blogspot.com/ ]
 
Yeah, I am aware of that. I just won't bother, simply because I refuse to wait what feels like a long Sunday afternoon between shots. RAW is useless for most shooting if it isn't buffered.

Petteri
--
Me on photography: [ http://www.prime-junta.tk/ ]
Me on politics: [ http://p-on-p.blogspot.com/ ]
 

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