Most good, some quirks, the killer is Autofocus Sucks!!

Dr. Gonzo - would I be right in saying that there was some sort of potential design flaw of some sort in earlier E-10s that was causing this problem for some - but by all means not all - users? I seem to remember seeing a site with pictures of playing cards and a fairly in depth study about differences in distance between the focusing plan in the pentaprism and the CCD.

Do you know whether the Olympus have acknowledged and resoved the design fault - if there was one - or whether some people are still getting the problem.

If the latter then it seems likely that this is something that can be discovered pretty quickly by testing in the shop.

Should be noted that D7s are not without hardware faults. I myself have a dead pixel as did Phil in his review. Interestingly not so easy to pick up on in the shop (I actually mail ordered but that's by the by) as the sheer resolution on this beast masks the problem when using the EVF or LCD. I would imagine this is a risk with the 4MP E-10 as well - I've upgraded from the realms of 2MP - and would advise anyone able to do so to take a laptop into the shop when purchasing, fire off a dark frame and run a pixel test program there and then. That's what I plan on doing when the company gets replacement stock in ;-)

DaveR

Dr. Gonzo said:

Dennis P O'Neil said:

Presuming of couse that you can get the e10 to fucus in the first
place, and ,unlike the poster on the oly forum, don't have to go
through three I repeat three cameras to find one that functions
correctly!

Dennis

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Dr. Gonzo said:

For your sake, or anyone's sake, I hope you have the experience of
this poster in the Oly forum, who has never had focus problems with
his first and only E-10.

Click to expand...

Just for clarification!

Ger Bee wrote

What do you consider the "zoom trick" or as others call it the "Jaja trick" to get this stupid machine to actually achieve focus reliably.

One MUST follow the “zoom trick” which means zooming in to tele and focus, then focus lock and re-compose. Nine out of ten shots on my three E10s will oof repeatedly if I try to focus in the wide angle.

This happens to me, my wife and others whom I have lent the camera to – we simply MUST zoom to focus.

Time to phone my dealer to see where my D1X is! ;-)))

Although I'm working from memory only it sounds like the E-10 may well focus faster than the D7 at 200mm. Certainly my memory of fousing below 140mm was that it was pretty responsive and it's well documented that the D7 becomes harder to AF as you get closer to 200mm - although I'm sure a lot of this has to do with using 200mm to tightly frame a close target and the resulting hand shake that incurs.

Mind you, as I said, neither is going to get within a country mile of the performance of my 8000i

DaveR

Dr. Gonzo said:

Dave Race said:

I've only used an E-10 for a short time in a shop, and just outside
the door in the street. Speeds were again pretty much what I'd
expect from a digicam - slightly quicker perhaps - but if Murray is
looking for 35mm responsiveness I don't think he'll find it there
either.

Out of interest, have you had experience of using the E-10 with a
tele-converter (B-300 or whatever). I was wondering what effect
these had on the E-10's AF performance out beyond 150mm.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Why do you care about whether someone who is interested in a Dimage 7 might buy an E-10 instead?

Dr. Gonzo said:

Any particular reason you aren't considering an E-10? From the D7
reports I've been seeing, the AF speed is far faster. It may have
the "pro features" you are looking for without the "pro price." You
should have no problem capturing your kids at shallow DOF, and the
price factor might be easier for your wife to take -- depending on
where you are, it can be pretty close to the D7 in price. Any way
you cut it, it's about 1/3 the price of a D1x.

Click to expand...

Dennis P O'Neil said:

Dr. Gonzo said:

For your sake, or anyone's sake, I hope you have the experience of
this poster in the Oly forum, who has never had focus problems with
his first and only E-10.

Click to expand...

Just for clarification!

Ger Bee wrote
What do you consider the "zoom trick" or as others call it the
"Jaja trick" to get this stupid machine to actually achieve focus
reliably.

One MUST follow the “zoom trick” which means zooming in
to tele and focus, then focus lock and re-compose. Nine out of ten
shots on my three E10s will oof repeatedly if I try to focus in the
wide angle.

This happens to me, my wife and others whom I have lent the camera
to – we simply MUST zoom to focus.

Time to phone my dealer to see where my D1X is! ;-)))

Click to expand...

Sounds interesting. Zoom to focus is something I often employ on the 35mm when point of focus is critical even at wider angles - e.g. using the 70-210 I may focus at 210mm and then back off to 100mm for the shot.

However, focusing at the wider angle first will still give sharp results and I would expect this of a digicam - more so given the relatively large DOF these produce.

Time to wander over the the Oly forum for more details methinks.

DaveR

Geir Ove said:

first day I used the D7, I was taking pictures if flying seagulls> this way: At 200 mm zoom (distance set to 30 meters = 100 feet). I> event "chased" driving cars on the highway this way. Pictures came> out sharp!

Click to expand...

URL?

Isn't that a bit unfair Mike? I know Dr G has wound a good few people up but I would like to think anyone should be allowed to give free advice. And the reasoning should be pretty obvious... he either wants to make sure the chap makes a fully informed decision or he's an Oly fanatic who wants to see everyone using an E-10. Whilst I'm sure many people will draw a different conclusion I'm happy to believe the former.

Mind you I'd question the "pro features" bit - that's like saying a 2.0L Astra has the features of my Scooby (4 doors, wheels and an engine). ;-)

DaveR

MikeA said:

Dr. Gonzo said:

Any particular reason you aren't considering an E-10? From the D7
reports I've been seeing, the AF speed is far faster. It may have
the "pro features" you are looking for without the "pro price." You
should have no problem capturing your kids at shallow DOF, and the
price factor might be easier for your wife to take -- depending on
where you are, it can be pretty close to the D7 in price. Any way
you cut it, it's about 1/3 the price of a D1x.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Just for clarification!

Dr. Gonzo and a whole lot of other users wrote:
I do not have, nor have I ever had, any focusing problems with my E-10.

Should our posts magically become worthless when someone has a bad run of luck? It's happened before, and hey, maybe the gods don't have it in the plans for this guy to have an E-10 he enjoys. But this same guy who has all these problems with his E-10s also recently posted that he made a fair chunk of change selling photos from his E-10 at a wedding:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&page=2&message=1332988

So this heinous "focus problem" that you are so fond of decrying quite obviously did not render his E-10 useless.

I am fully aware that the E-10 is not a high-end professional camera, and if I were making a living with my digital, I don't think I'd be using one unless it was in the proper setting (portrait or possibly event photography), which is why I put the "pro features" in quotes. However I do believe that if Murray is dissatisfied with the D7's autofocus performance but would want to keep the cost as close to a D7 as possible, the E-10 would be the logical camera to look at. That's all.

You're correct in assuming that I'm not some Oly zealot trying to see the whole world use E-10s but rather someone offering free (if unsolicited) advice. I am very secure with my camera's position in the pecking order. It seems that it is the D7 folks who are not.

Dr Gonzo

If you are so secure as you claim, why do you bother coming to this forum over and over again, you simply want to reassure yourself that you huge 2K investment was not a bad decision after all. the D7 is a good camera with some flaws, as well as the E10, a colleague of mine who has the E10 in my department here hates its AF

AF problems are an inherent defect of the zoom type digicams and not specific to the D7, my g1 AF is TERRIBLE
The real bad thing about the D7 is the AA bateries
Dr Hatem A Tawfik, MD
Ophthalmologist
Cairo, Egypt
( I am a real doctor, what about you ??)

I think you are the one who needs to ask himself, why do you feel the need to respond to my posts? Especially, as this one, when they are not addressed to you?

I don't think I have ever attacked a D7 owner, I have always limited my discussion to the hardware. I don't know why they get so up in arms about what I have to say.

I am not even in a situation to defend or criticize my purchase because I havent even received my camera, and naturally I have my doubts about such a big investment, but you are in no situation to keep bragging about your E10 because you dont own both cameras so your methods of comparison are FLAWED, and should be disregarded, that is assuming that I do care about comparing both cameras which of course I dont, because I can never buy a 1-year old heavily criticized , only 4 MP camera, which is going to be replaced by OLYMPUS itself in a few months. I think if someone dislikes the dimage 7, he or she should WAIT for a few months and not buy an OLDER model, NIKON and Canon will not keep watching for long.

Please let us stop "the mine is better than yours attitude", and leave us dimage 7 owners to help each other with our purchase,

and you can go ahead and offer your valuable and defintely worthwile help on the OLY SLR forum.

Hatem Tawfik
Cairo, Egypt

I can only suggest you either learn how to read if you cannot, or actually read my posts in this thread. You'll find that I clearly state that I am not bashing the D7, just offering advice based upon the fact that the E-10 is capable of doing what Murray says he cannot do with the D7.

P.S. A post to Murray would have no use in the Oly forum, as his post is right here. I resent your attempts to censor me

hatem tawfik said:

Please let us stop "the mine is better than yours attitude", and
leave us dimage 7 owners to help each other with our purchase,
and you can go ahead and offer your valuable and defintely
worthwile help on the OLY SLR forum.

Hatem Tawfik
Cairo, Egypt

Click to expand...

Dr. Gonzo said:

I can only suggest you either learn how to read if you cannot, or
actually read my posts in this thread.

Click to expand...

And you're not sure why people take offense at your posts?

Dr. Gonzo said:

You'll find that I clearly
state that I am not bashing the D7,

Click to expand...

Stating something doesn't make it so.

Dr. Gonzo said:

just offering advice based upon
the fact that the E-10 is capable of doing what Murray says he
cannot do with the D7.

Click to expand...

Not wishing to be picky but there is no evidence that I can see that the E-10 will do what Murray says he cannot do with the D7. Both cameras have evidence that some users have problems with the focus system.

With the D7 this seems to be a general issue at long telephoto lengths - possibly beyond the maximum out of the box range of the E-10, but you have stated that tele-extenders do not have a significant impact on the E-10 so the E-10 is, presumably, still ahead here.

With the E-10 ther seem to have been two issues that I've picked up from other posts - inaccurate manual focusing due to an in camera fault which is rectifiable and some sort of problem with wide angle focusing requiring initial focusing to be made at telephoto lengths (which sounds very odd but there you hae it).

Thus both cameras have irritations in this area, particularly for someone looking for 35mm AF type performance. Of course any non-pro digicam is likely to hae similar if not worse failings.

Dr. Gonzo said:

P.S. A post to Murray would have no use in the Oly forum, as his
post is right here. I resent your attempts to censor me

Click to expand...

I can't, and won't, comment on Hatem's motives but, as I've said elsewhere, I welcome informed and accurate debate.

Stimulating as always,

DaveR

Dr. Gonzo said:

hatem tawfik said:

Please let us stop "the mine is better than yours attitude", and
leave us dimage 7 owners to help each other with our purchase,
and you can go ahead and offer your valuable and defintely
worthwile help on the OLY SLR forum.

Hatem Tawfik
Cairo, Egypt

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Don't you think that if somebody were interested in the opinion of an E10
user he just would ask his question over there?

I think the intention of Phil setting up these specific brands forum was
to make it possible that owners of this brands can exchange informations.

For me your posts are fullfilling the following (well, not in the drastic manner, but...):

Trolls - Anyone deliberately antagonizing other forum users by posting 'flame bait' type messages are not welcome. This includes users who primarily post in one brand forum posting 'Brand X is better' messages in another forum.

Dave Race said:

And you're not sure why people take offense at your posts?

Click to expand...

Offensive or not, those are the two possibilities as to how Hatem could be misconstruing my post. Obviously, Murray doesn't like the D7, and I expect now he will be looking for alternatives. It only seems logical to help him out.

David Race said:

Stating something doesn't make it so.

Click to expand...

That's a two-way street

David Race said:

Not wishing to be picky but there is no evidence that I can see
that the E-10 will do what Murray says he cannot do with the D7.
Both cameras have evidence that some users have problems with the
focus system.

Click to expand...

Well I know that > I

David Race said:

With the D7 this seems to be a general issue at long telephoto
lengths - possibly beyond the maximum out of the box range of the
E-10, but you have stated that tele-extenders do not have a
significant impact on the E-10 so the E-10 is, presumably, still
ahead here.

Click to expand...

Part of the reason I posted.

David Race said:

With the E-10 ther seem to have been two issues that I've picked up
from other posts - inaccurate manual focusing due to an in camera
fault which is rectifiable and some sort of problem with wide angle
focusing requiring initial focusing to be made at telephoto lengths
(which sounds very odd but there you hae it).

Click to expand...

Neither of these apply to Murray's concerns though. Both concern MF; he wants faster AF. (FYI the two problems you mention have some overlap and I am working on a user-side "fix" for one of them, but this isn't the place to go into all that)

David Race said:

Thus both cameras have irritations in this area, particularly for
someone looking for 35mm AF type performance. Of course any non-pro
digicam is likely to hae similar if not worse failings.

Click to expand...

The bottom line is the E-10 is far closer than the D7 is in that regard. Perhaps close enough for Murray. Perhaps not.

David Race said:

I can't, and won't, comment on Hatem's motives but, as I've said
elsewhere, I welcome informed and accurate debate.

Click to expand...

As I strive to provide.

David Race said:

Stimulating as always,

DaveR

Click to expand...

Everyone should be as open-minded in their argumentativeness as you.

JP,

Am I wrong about this? I thought with passive auto focus the camera used 1 separator lens and diverted the light to a CCD which measured vertical contrast. More expensive 35mm cameras have added a system for horizontal contrast. Would not a digital camera measuring off off the CCD not need the separator lens and be equivalent to a passive autofocus 35 mm SLR that measured vertical contrast only? Is the explanation referenced below wrong or am I missing something?

See:

http://www.howstuffworks.com/autofocus2.htm

Frank B

jp said:

jp52637 said:

I have never heard any complaints of Minolta 35s (using the same
system) being slow or not solid on AF.

Click to expand...

I can assure you that the AF system in the D7 and the Maxxum
camereas is not the same at all.
They may both be called phase detection but that is where the
similarity ends.
Classical SLR using phase detection have separator lenses in the
optical path that sample the incoming light beam at different
angles and project it on different CCDs, then they compare the
image position on both CCDs
Since the D7 can not have separator lenses in its optical path, the
focus detection must be done in software from the imager
information, and this is another principal altogether than what
SLRs use.
The read-out speed of a 5MP CCD is also a lot slower than the
dedicated line sensor CCDs used in SLR land which only have a few
thousand pixels.
IMHO a pure software autofocussing solution will not match the
speed of a dedicated hardware solution for the next few years.
This will only be the case when CCDs and CPUs in cameras have
become so fast that the only limiting factor is the mechanical part.

Click to expand...

Andreas P. said:

Don't you think that if somebody were interested in the opinion of
an E10
user he just would ask his question over there?

Click to expand...

Not if that person were not 1) aware of the existence of the E-10 or 2) aware of the benefits the E-10 has to offer.

Andreas P. said:

I think the intention of Phil setting up these specific brands
forum was
to make it possible that owners of this brands can exchange
informations.
For me your posts are fullfilling the following (well, not in the
drastic manner, but...):

Trolls - Anyone deliberately antagonizing other forum users by
posting 'flame bait' type messages are not welcome. This includes
users who primarily post in one brand forum posting 'Brand X is
better' messages in another forum.

Click to expand...

The original post was directed at Murray and Murray only, who could hardly have been "antagonized" by it because he obviously is dissatisfied with the D7 and is now searching out a better camera. So no, it does not fall into that category, although all the attention by the D7-ites has artificially pushed it toward that territory.

I believe that poster has a manual focus problem. Had he sent it in to Olympus it would have been corrected.

Frank B

Dennis P O'Neil said:

Dr. Gonzo said:

Any particular reason you aren't considering an E-10? From the D7
reports I've been seeing, the AF speed is far faster.

Click to expand...

Presuming of couse that you can get the e10 to fucus in the first
place, and ,unlike the poster on the oly forum, don't have to go
through three I repeat three cameras to find one that functions
correctly!

Dennis

Click to expand...

Murray Z said:

Some software quirks such as magnification in playback mode does
not work all the time. I have to shut the camera off and turn it
back on for it to work.

Click to expand...

I have had this exact problem several times since I got my unit on Monday. Anyone know of a fix/workaround? The magnify button just beeps and does nothing.

-- Gary O