Photographing children in public

But surely this is irrelevant! I cannot believe this world we live in.

Just because 0.01% (or whatever percentage) of people have a sexual attraction to kids, we are ALL now not allowed to photograph kids? Huh?

Just like a similar percentage of males **** women, shall we also outlow women-photos? Come to think of it, some women **** males, I just read in the paper the other day, so let's outlow females aiming cameras at males too?

I think we have to be reasonable in all this! If I hide in a swimming pool girls' change room in the dark and then furtively photograph 10-year old girls' sex organs after they strip naked, I should be reported and go to jail. But if I take pictures of kids in a playground laughing and having fun, I am doing just that: taking pictures of kids in a playground laughing and having fun.

I must say this atmosphere of distrust had me worried recently taking pics of my own son in a playground. This is silly.. throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I think we all need to lighten up a little!!

Mike
 
"Many pedophiles even collect photographs of children who are
complete strangers to them. They take these pictures at swimming
meets, wrestling matches, child beauty pageants, PARKS, parades,
rock concerts, and other events open to the public. These
photographs are usually of children of a certain age or gender."
"This includes photographing of children fully dressed. One
pedophile bragged that he went to rock concerts with 30 or 40 rolls
of film in order to photograph young boys. After developing the
pictures, he fantasized about having sex with the boys. Such a
pedophile might frequent playgrounds, youth athletic contests,
child beauty pageants, or child exercise classes with his camera
(i.e., 35mm, "instant," video or digital."

I suppose the retired FBI agent is paranoid, too.
Only if he suggests that youths should avoid going to such events or bans photography of the events.
I'm not advocating restrictions on freedom. I report what I did
find, you decide.
Decide on what? You still haven't shown me a direct correlation of how those photographs harmed a child. With the information you providef I can only conclude that you missed my point so consequently there is nothing to base a decision on.

Regards,
Mike

--
New Gallery (in development stage) http://wnyphoto.com
Photography is just one of my hobbies

 
I suppose the retired FBI agent is paranoid, too.
Only if he suggests that youths should avoid going to such events
or bans photography of the events.
No, the thrust of the article seemed for LEO types and people who deal with victims professionally. The article seems to substantiate (in the writer's opinion, that child molesters sometimes use cameras in public places to get sexual kicks from the photos). It's not stretching it too far that given the opportunity, a real victim could be abducted and sexually abused by the type of person who fits that particular sub-profile. What percentage of people who photograph in this type of situation are motivitated thusly is anybody's guess.

How do so many who get grabbed, sexually assaulted and murdered get chosen as victims? They turn somebody on who then sometimes stalks them for months until they get the opportunity to act on their impulses.
I'm not advocating restrictions on freedom. I report what I did
find, you decide.
Decide on what? You still haven't shown me a direct correlation of
how those photographs harmed a child. With the information you
providef I can only conclude that you missed my point so
consequently there is nothing to base a decision on.
They have the potential in harming the child in that the pervert could get fixated on a particular child he has photographed and wait for an opportuntity to grab the child for the real thing which is what I would guess some prefer since one of the sites deals with exploited/missing children.

I don't know about you, but I would feel violated if even a picture of myself or a loved one was the source of a sexual fantasy that was acted out privately. I would not like someone doing the m word using a picture of my child, any child, as the stimulus because it is just my opinion, and my opinion only, that it is sick.

If you don't mind someone using your picture or your child (I think you don't have children?) to act out a sexual fantasy, I can't understand that, even though I would agree that there is no actual physical harm to the subject in the picture.

Evidently the FBI man who wrote the article regarded some people who take pictures of children fully clothed in public places as potential abductors/abusers that will sooner or later go for more.
Regards,
Mike

--
New Gallery (in development stage) http://wnyphoto.com
Photography is just one of my hobbies

 
No, the thrust of the article seemed for LEO types and people who
deal with victims professionally. The article seems to
substantiate (in the writer's opinion, that child molesters
sometimes use cameras in public places to get sexual kicks from the
photos). It's not stretching it too far that given the
opportunity, a real victim could be abducted and sexually abused by
the type of person who fits that particular sub-profile.
I suppose one could speculate on that as well as other senarios. Again, I was looking for examples of actual events where the photographs led to abuse to the child.
What
percentage of people who photograph in this type of situation are
motivitated thusly is anybody's guess.
Exactly, so far the facts are at zero percent unless we have facts to prove otherwise. So far you have substantiated that we are still dealing with speculations.
How do so many who get grabbed, sexually assaulted and murdered get
chosen as victims? They turn somebody on who then sometimes stalks
them for months until they get the opportunity to act on their
impulses.
That was my question and still is.
Decide on what? You still haven't shown me a direct correlation of
how those photographs harmed a child. With the information you
providef I can only conclude that you missed my point so
consequently there is nothing to base a decision on.
They have the potential in harming the child in that the pervert
could get fixated on a particular child he has photographed and
wait for an opportuntity to grab the child for the real thing which
is what I would guess some prefer since one of the sites deals with
exploited/missing children.
That is one possible senerio based upon speculation, you still haven't answered the question I posed.
I don't know about you, but I would feel violated if even a picture
of myself or a loved one was the source of a sexual fantasy that
was acted out privately. I would not like someone doing the m word
using a picture of my child, any child, as the stimulus because it
is just my opinion, and my opinion only, that it is sick.
I agree that it is sick, just as sick as someone sitting on a park bench without a camera with the same perverted thoughts and only using their eyes. Should we make a law that outlaws people from viewing children in the park? Should everyone that looks at a child in the park be questioned about why they are looking at the children?
If you don't mind someone using your picture or your child (I think
you don't have children?) to act out a sexual fantasy, I can't
understand that, even though I would agree that there is no actual
physical harm to the subject in the picture.
I would mind that just as much as I would mind someone using their eyes to do the same thing (without any photograph). I think you are really missing my point based upon your posts.

BTW, I came from a large family, my youngest of my three children was my grandmother's 100th great grandchild. She had 13 more before she passed away in 1991. Currently I have 4 grandchildren.
Evidently the FBI man who wrote the article regarded some people
who take pictures of children fully clothed in public places as
potential abductors/abusers that will sooner or later go for more.
More speculation and at the same token the potential abductor/abusers don't need a camera to fantasize.

I truly believe you are missing my point and I am sorry about that because you may have grossly misjudged me. I don't like perverts but I am not going to advocate that we become paranoid because they exist.

Regards,
Mike

--
New Gallery (in development stage) http://wnyphoto.com
Photography is just one of my hobbies

 
Well, where do you draw the line? What about at a middle school
football game and the "pervert" is taking pictures of the
cheerleaders - still o.k.? What about at a swim meet - the kids
are "dressed" but in their swim wear - still o.k.? How about boys
and girls tennis? Bottom line, as a parent, I don't want anybody
taking pictures or video of my kids and using them for some
"improper" purpose.
So, I should not be allowed to take pictures of birds because I might do something "improper" with them. Well, lets see if PETA attacks me for implied cardinal neck-stretching (or crossbreeding with chickens.)



NO birds were harmed during the production and modification of this photograph.
 
well, I've somewhat resisted posting to this thread. But, let me
just say, if I see you taking pictures of my kid and I don't know
you, I'm going to clock you, call the cops (or FBI, or Dept. of
Homeland Security - I got some friends), watch you delete the
photos, or some combination of the above. The last thing I, or my
kids, need is to have some perv. taking pictures of my kid in
innocent settings and perverting it or just using it to satisfy his
own personal desires.
Sorry, but taking photos, or doing anyting with them afterward, does NOT harm your child, any more than someone looking at them as they walk by What's next, shooting someone because they happen to glance at your kids because they might be harboring impure thoughts about them?

Similarly, if I take a picture of the Golden Gate bridge, it doesn't mean I'm planning on blowing it up.
 
"This includes photographing of children fully dressed. One
pedophile bragged that he went to rock concerts with 30 or 40 rolls
of film in order to photograph young boys. After developing the
pictures, he fantasized about having sex with the boys. Such a
Fantasizing about things is NOT illegal, and does NOT harm the subject of the fantasy. no matter what it is. In 1991, while depressed about being out of work, I fantasized about flying a large aircraft into the WTC. Of course, I didn't do it. (In some future, the Thought Police will probably interpret this as plotting.. )

BTW: I don't photgraph children, since I can't stand rugrats. In fact, I don't photograph people at all, unless they happen to be standing in front of the scenery and I can't frame them out.
 
I think we have to be reasonable in all this! If I hide in a
swimming pool girls' change room in the dark and then furtively
photograph 10-year old girls' sex organs after they strip naked, I
should be reported and go to jail. But if I take pictures of kids
in a playground laughing and having fun, I am doing just that:
taking pictures of kids in a playground laughing and having fun.
You're ignoring the middle. You point out the extreme and the innocent but you ignore the fine line of when something is determined by a parent or a guardian to be innapropriate. Are you denying there is potentially a fine line in the middle? Then why didnt you provide an example? This isnt about your innocent shooting style. These people dont know you from Adam. Its about dealing with parents who may have had enough and begin to consider you an invasion of their privacy. Lets hear you make a case for why its just TFB for the parents. Public is a very broad word.

All I'm saying is that if legislation to enact privacy laws concerning these situations will be put in the works, if they arent already, this is how they will start. If it ever comes down to the kids parents word against Joe Pushy Photographer... who do you think the judge is going to side with? Have tact, have permission, get the shot, whats the problem? When does your rights as a photographer end and someones privacy begin? Personally I have no use for pictures of a non-public figure without a signed release anyways. I give everyone I shoot the option to decline to be photographed. But oh yeah, this isnt about my innocent shooting style either.
 
No, the thrust of the article seemed for LEO types and people who
deal with victims professionally. The article seems to
substantiate (in the writer's opinion, that child molesters
sometimes use cameras in public places to get sexual kicks from the
photos). It's not stretching it too far that given the
opportunity, a real victim could be abducted and sexually abused by
the type of person who fits that particular sub-profile. What
percentage of people who photograph in this type of situation are
motivitated thusly is anybody's guess.
How do so many who get grabbed, sexually assaulted and murdered get
chosen as victims? They turn somebody on who then sometimes stalks
them for months until they get the opportunity to act on their
impulses.
You've taken one sentence from a 160-page document to try to prove your point. The author NEVER uses the word "stalk" in but instead talks about the "seduction process" and how in some cases the parents are "seduced" in addition to the child. He also states "This is why such offenders can be the Big Brother of the Year, the most popular teacher, or the best soccer coach."
 
Sorry, but taking photos, or doing anyting with them afterward,
does NOT harm your child, any more than someone looking at them as
they walk by What's next, shooting someone because they happen to
glance at your kids because they might be harboring impure thoughts
about them?
Actually, the Supreme Court disagrees with you. But, I digress.

First, let me say - Wow - quite the spirited discussion. It's nice that so many of my comments are being taken out of their context and that so many bad intentions are being imputed to me. Most people need to at least sit down and talk with me for an hour before they conclude I'm an irrational jerk (that's a joke for those of you looking for blood).

Warning - my response is very lengthy. If you are willing to wade through it, I promise you that I will not only provide you of an anecdotal causal link between photography and pedophilia, but I will also provide you criminal statutes on the books that criminalize certain types of pictures of kids.

What I like about the internet and discussion boards is that it offers a medium for the free-exchange of ideas. Indeed, a Jeffersonian notion that if you hear from all of the sides, then you eventually get at the truth. What I find disheartening is that the vast majority of posters are quick to distort the spirit of my posts in an effort to justify their own positions, personally attack me and then make certain assumptions. One cannot gain knowledge if one is unwilling to accept that his/her position may be wrong. While I am not naive enough to believe that I will change any of your minds, I am hopeful that my response will at least challenge you to think more critically about your own positions.

Now, before you set off to hunt for my prior posts to show how in context your replies are, let me save you some trouble and describe the context I and a select few other posters are talking about: You are at the play park with your kid. Let's say for the sake of argument, your kid is under 10 years old. Some individual you don't know starts taking pictures of your kid. That individual is not there with other kids. He's just there by himself and he's taking pictures of just your kid. Frankly, you don't know what kind of pictures he's taking. I would wager that this fact pattern sets off warning bells for almost EVERY parent.

In framing this context, I am hopefully addressing those individuals with well-reasoned posts of their own anecdotal photography of kids that are not personally offensive: taking pictures of my relatives (nieces and nephews); taking pictures of kids I know (at my kid's birthday party for instance); taking pictures of other kids that are on the same sporting team, etc. (again, here I probably know the parents and the kids).

My comments are primarily directed at the narrow situation where my "paranoia" is frankly justified. Obviously, I echo a lot of Shudderbug's comments. What I am surprised by is that more posters here don't agree that there are situations which are just weird. Obviously, this is the case and some warning bell goes off in most people's minds, since there have been multiple posts about photographing children in public.

Allow me to address what appears to be a big issue for many of you posters - that there is not one cited case showing a causal link between photographing kids and sexual predatory tactics. O.k., you want an example - how about two: the first is a published California case and the second involves a local individual.

Check out People v. Kongs, 30 Cal.App.4th 1741 (1994) - for you non-lawyers who can't access the case with the citation, and just so I'm not accused of creative interpretation - here are selective quotes from the case:

Facts:

"Eric John Kongs was charged with the crimes of annoying or molesting a minor, using a minor to pose for visual depictions of sexual conduct, and possessing child pornography.

"Kongs encountered the victim in this case, Amanda C., at "family photo shoots." These are events at which numerous photographers take pictures of models of varying ages so that both the photographers and the models can develop portfolios.

"Kongs photographed Amanda when she was 10 or 11 years old. His photography made her uncomfortable. Kongs would ask her to sit on a fence rail or playground attraction and spread her legs apart. He also instructed her to put a finger on her chin and her other hand on her waist, in a suggestive manner. Sometimes, he would ask her to perform cartwheels or flips. Kongs would focus his camera on the area below her waist. He did not point the camera at her face. Amanda objected to her family and friends about Kongs's photography.

"The Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department launched an investigation to identify pedophiles who attend photo shoots. An undercover officer pretended to be a photographer and attended the photo shoots. He observed Kongs photographing girls under the age of 14 in poses where their legs would be spread and their panties or genitalia would be showing. While the girls were wearing shorts or skirts, Kongs would direct them to lift their legs and knees up in the air so as to expose their underwear, then focus his camera on the area between their legs. None of the models was nude during these photo shoots.

"The sheriff's department executed a search warrant at Kongs's residence. They discovered numerous photographs and videotapes, the majority of which depicted "crotch shots of minors," according to an investigating officer. He could not verify whether Kongs took these photographs. There were also photographs of nude children under the age of 11.

(cont'd in next post...)
 
"Kongs was charged in an amended information with eight counts of annoying or molesting a child (Pen. Code, § 647.6), three counts of using a minor to pose for visual depictions of sexual conduct (Pen. Code, § 311.4, subd. (c)), and one count of possessing child pornography (Pen. Code, § 311.11, subd. (a))."

Kongs argues the First Amendment:

"Kongs grounds his argument on the First Amendment right to freedom of expression. He asserts that the state's prosecution violates his constitutional right because it attempts to regulate his thoughts rather than child pornography."
  • this argument is rejected.
"Annoy and molest" are synonymous and mean to disturb or irritate, especially by continued or repeated acts; to vex, to trouble; to irk; or to offend.

"Our reading of Penal Code section 647.6 does not offend the First Amendment's guarantee of free expression. The Supreme Court has recognized that a state may legitimately sanction activities which amount to harmful conduct rather than "pure speech," particularly when the conduct in question involves the use of children to make sexual material for pedophiles. Here, Kongs's conduct went much further than a neutral viewing of little girls in underwear for his private sexual pleasure. Rather, his viewing was combined with affirmative conduct which could ordinarily cause annoyance or offense to the subject of his attentions.

"Kongs's subterfuge of pretending to be a legitimate photographer while clandestinely trying to peek at the models' genital areas differentiates this case from that of the diaper commercial maker, and is the factor that makes Kongs's voyeuristic conduct annoying or offensive to the average person under Penal Code section 647.6. If any analogy is to be made here, it would more appropriately be made to a "peeping Tom" rather than to a diaper commercial maker. The deciding factor for purposes of a Penal Code 647.6 charge is that the defendant has engaged in offensive or annoying sexually motivated conduct which invades a child's privacy and security, conduct which the government has a substantial interest in preventing and which is unrelated to the suppression of free expression.

"Using a Minor to Pose for Sex Acts - Penal Code section 311.4, subdivision (c), authorizes felony charges against someone who "knowingly promotes, employs, uses, persuades, induces, or coerces a minor under the age of 17 ... to engage in or assist others to engage in either posing or modeling alone or with others for purposes of preparing a film, photograph, negative, slide, or live performance involving sexual conduct by a minor under the age of 17 years alone or with other persons or animals .... It shall not be necessary to prove commercial purposes in order to establish a violation of this subdivision."

"To determine whether Kongs used or induced a minor to pose for purposes of preparing a film or photograph involving sexual conduct, the circumstances of this case require us to ask whether there was sufficient evidence of "exhibition of the genitals, pubic, or rectal area for the purpose of sexual stimulation of the viewer" to sustain the magistrate's decision to hold Kongs to answer on these charges. (Pen. Code, § 311.4, subd. (d).) Kongs maintains that the exhibition which occurred here was innocuous and "innocent." He reasons that because the genitals of Amanda C. and the other models were covered by panties or a swimsuit at the time the photographs were taken, no sexual conduct can be found, regardless of his intent.

"We disagree with Kongs's assertion that sexual conduct has to be nude to be lewd. Nude is not synonymous with lewd. No one would seriously argue that Michelangelo's statue of David is lewd, even sans an artificial fig leaf. By the same token, a photograph of tots posing suggestively while dressed in corsets, garters, and hosiery could well be considered lewd because such attire is so inappropriate to their age and is obviously designed to elicit a sexual response in a viewer.

"Here, child models were posing for the purpose of developing photo portfolios. The expectation on the part of the models is that photographs would be taken of their faces or their entire person. Instead, Kongs diminished his subjects by focusing his camera on their private parts, turning the models into sexual objects rather than treating them as whole people. "The pornographic photographer subordinates the humanity of his subject to the sexuality of the subject" and makes his subject "a mere means [of] serving the voyeur's purposes."

"The Ferber case instructs us that states may legitimately protect the dignity and psychological well-being of children by forbidding child pornography. That purpose is served by construing Penal Code section 311.4 to encompass not only a nude exhibition of the pubic or rectal area, but, in appropriate cases, exhibitions focusing unnaturally upon a child's underwear or bikini-clad pubic or rectal area. Notably, the Legislature did not require a "nude" exhibition in Penal Code section 311.4, subdivision (d). Presumably, the Legislature was aware that for some pedophiles, furtive glimpses of a child's underwear-covered genitals are sexually stimulating.

"Nevertheless, the Legislature could reasonably conclude that such photography is unacceptable if the photographer obtains his pictures by exploiting his subject and reducing the child to a sexual object in order to satisfy the cravings of an audience of pedophiles. A child should not have to face a lifetime of knowing that a permanent record has been made of his or her abasement."

Now, some of you may argue that the facts in Kongs is different-that he was at a photography shoot that the parents knew about. Well, in my opinion, that only strengthens my argument. In Kongs, the parents knew their child was being photographed. In my hypothetical, the parents don't know.

(one more post...)
 
More importantly, as this case demonstrates, there are criminal laws (at least in California) that could be filed against photographers who engage in certain conduct. My dilemna as a parent is I don't know if the stranger photographer is an innocent upstanding citizen (who reads dpreview) or a pedophile.

I promised two examples, so here is the second. there is this individual who stood on public property and took pictures of kids at an elementary school across the way. A teacher reported the behavior to police officers. When police contacted him, the guy had lubricant on his hand and shirt and pictures of the kids. They asked him what he was doing and he said, just taking some pictures. A subsequent search of his residence disclosed tons of pictures of other kids and tons of child pornography.

Bottom line, my child is not and should not be the object of some pedophile's sexual desires. As a parent, don't I have some fundamental responsibility and entitlement to do everything I can to prevent my child being depicted as a sex object? Obviously, the government agrees with me.

If you've read this far, I applaud you. Despite the personal attacks, the accusations of ridiculousness, etc., I have considered many of your arguments and have somewhat benefitted from the discussion by gaining a deeper appreciation of the issues (I still don't agree with the majority of the posters on here). Can you all say the same?
 
This isnt about your innocent
shooting style. These people dont know you from Adam. Its about
dealing with parents who may have had enough and begin to consider
you an invasion of their privacy.
Have tact, have permission,
get the shot, whats the problem? When does your rights as a
photographer end and someones privacy begin? Personally I have no
use for pictures of a non-public figure without a signed release
anyways. I give everyone I shoot the option to decline to be
photographed. But oh yeah, this isnt about my innocent shooting
style either.
Amen...
 
First, let me say - Wow - quite the spirited discussion. It's nice
that so many of my comments are being taken out of their context
and that so many bad intentions are being imputed to me. Most
people need to at least sit down and talk with me for an hour
before they conclude I'm an irrational jerk (that's a joke for
those of you looking for blood).
Now I really find that hypocritical especially after your comment "But, let me just say, if I see you taking pictures of my kid and I don't know you, I'm going to clock you".
Allow me to address what appears to be a big issue for many of you
posters - that there is not one cited case showing a causal link
between photographing kids and sexual predatory tactics. O.k., you
want an example - how about two: the first is a published
California case and the second involves a local individual.
The example you provided is way beyond someone in the park taking photos of children. The example is about someone that is posing children in inapproptiate ways.

So I can see how you can associate warranted concern if a parent was in that situation.
 
More importantly, as this case demonstrates, there are criminal
laws (at least in California) that could be filed against
photographers who engage in certain conduct.
Hardly what was being discussed. The conduct described is certainly against state and federal laws.
I promised two examples, so here is the second. there is this
individual who stood on public property and took pictures of kids
at an elementary school across the way. A teacher reported the
behavior to police officers. When police contacted him, the guy
had lubricant on his hand and shirt and pictures of the kids. They
asked him what he was doing and he said, just taking some pictures.
A subsequent search of his residence disclosed tons of pictures of
other kids and tons of child pornography.
Do you have a link to that for verification, as anyone can say what they want on the internet to make their argument. In any case, the child was not harmed and if you are referring to any of my posts I was looking for one situation in which a child was harmed because of someone photographing them in a park.

How many incidents like the one you described above (if it happened) happens without the use of a camera? Do we ask anyone with eyes looking at children playing in the park what they are doing?
Bottom line, my child is not and should not be the object of some
pedophile's sexual desires. As a parent, don't I have some
fundamental responsibility and entitlement to do everything I can
to prevent my child being depicted as a sex object? Obviously, the
government agrees with me.
Obviously, so anytime someone takes a photograph in public and your child happens to be in the frame you ought to punch them like you suggested earlier.
If you've read this far, I applaud you. Despite the personal
attacks, the accusations of ridiculousness, etc., I have considered
many of your arguments and have somewhat benefitted from the
discussion by gaining a deeper appreciation of the issues (I still
don't agree with the majority of the posters on here). Can you all
say the same?
Yes, I don't agree with many of the posters that think laws should be enacted instead of a little courtesy and common sense.

Regards,
Mike

--
New Gallery (in development stage) http://wnyphoto.com
Photography is just one of my hobbies

 
First, let me say - Wow - quite the spirited discussion. It's nice
that so many of my comments are being taken out of their context
and that so many bad intentions are being imputed to me. Most
people need to at least sit down and talk with me for an hour
before they conclude I'm an irrational jerk (that's a joke for
those of you looking for blood).
Now I really find that hypocritical especially after your comment
"But, let me just say, if I see you taking pictures of my kid and I
don't know you, I'm going to clock you".
I'm not sure it's hypocritical. "Clocked" is probably a stronger word than I intended, but I think if you look back at my original post, I said, I would do some combination of "clocking" "watching you delete your photos" and "calling the cops." I think you'd agree that your selective quoting is a bit misleading, no?
Allow me to address what appears to be a big issue for many of you
posters - that there is not one cited case showing a causal link
between photographing kids and sexual predatory tactics. O.k., you
want an example - how about two: the first is a published
California case and the second involves a local individual.
The example you provided is way beyond someone in the park taking
photos of children. The example is about someone that is posing
children in inapproptiate ways.

So I can see how you can associate warranted concern if a parent
was in that situation.
I'm not sure it's that far beyond, which is part of my point. If a stranger photographer is taking a picture of my kid, I don't know how he is composing it - maybe they're just taking butt shots, or crotch shots. As a parent, it raises a lot of red flags and people who take pictures should respect parents who don't want their kids photographed. I don't see why that is such a difficult concept. (I'm not saying this last sentence applies to you)
 
I'm not sure it's hypocritical. "Clocked" is probably a stronger
word than I intended, but I think if you look back at my original
post, I said, I would do some combination of "clocking" "watching
you delete your photos" and "calling the cops." I think you'd
agree that your selective quoting is a bit misleading, no?
I will agree that you probably were emotionally charged when you suggested physical assaults.
I'm not sure it's that far beyond, which is part of my point. If a
stranger photographer is taking a picture of my kid, I don't know
how he is composing it - maybe they're just taking butt shots, or
crotch shots. As a parent, it raises a lot of red flags and people
who take pictures should respect parents who don't want their kids
photographed. I don't see why that is such a difficult concept.
(I'm not saying this last sentence applies to you)
I would agree with that and I would like to share one of my situations with you. I took photos of people (adults) in public and they asked that I don't photograph them. Not only did I not photograph them anymore, I showed them the shot and deleted it while they watched. I am not out to force my right to photograph people in public if it offends them.

I am also don't want to see legislation restrict more freedoms. I've seen too many of our freedoms taken away already because of knee-jerk reactions.

If I was in a situation where something wasn't looking like it was right then I would be concerned to ...especially when it affects my family. But I won't make a knee-jerk decision ...I hope ;)

Regards,
Mike

--
New Gallery (in development stage) http://wnyphoto.com
Photography is just one of my hobbies

 
More importantly, as this case demonstrates, there are criminal
laws (at least in California) that could be filed against
photographers who engage in certain conduct. My dilemna as a
parent is I don't know if the stranger photographer is an innocent
upstanding citizen (who reads dpreview) or a pedophile.

I promised two examples, so here is the second. there is this
individual who stood on public property and took pictures of kids
at an elementary school across the way. A teacher reported the
behavior to police officers. When police contacted him, the guy
had lubricant on his hand and shirt and pictures of the kids. They
asked him what he was doing and he said, just taking some pictures.
A subsequent search of his residence disclosed tons of pictures of
other kids and tons of child pornography.

Bottom line, my child is not and should not be the object of some
pedophile's sexual desires. As a parent, don't I have some
fundamental responsibility and entitlement to do everything I can
to prevent my child being depicted as a sex object? Obviously, the
government agrees with me.

If you've read this far, I applaud you. Despite the personal
attacks, the accusations of ridiculousness, etc., I have considered
many of your arguments and have somewhat benefitted from the
discussion by gaining a deeper appreciation of the issues (I still
don't agree with the majority of the posters on here). Can you all
say the same?
Another quote from the document ShudderBug refered to and from the same paragraph I quoted earlier: "Parents who desperately want their children to get good grades, become star athletes, get into modeling or show business, have an adult male role model, or have a good babysitter, may actually push their children to these offenders." Fortunately, in your first example, the child was smart enough to know there was a problem. Unfortunately, not all pedophiles are as dumb as the one in your second example.

And I do understand your dilemma about "stranger photographers". But here's another example. A man with a camera walks out of the woods onto a Little League field where a team is practicing. The girl on first base comes over and starts talking to him. Another girl asks the first girl who the photographer is and even though she says "I don't know", they ask to have their pictures taken and then a couple of other players ask for pictures. None of the parents on the other side of the field know the photographer but none come over to question him.

Bad parents, pedophile, both, neither? Answer in my next post.
 
I will agree that you probably were emotionally charged when you
suggested physical assaults.
well, late night, dark imaginings (such as, walking up to a guy taking pictures of my kid, saying what the hell are you doing? he says I'm taking pictures of your kid and going to pleasure myself to them - oh I'm clocking that guy), etc. In only a discreet example would I actually clock a person (I have way more to lose than the average guy) - other people, I'm sure I would ask that the pictures be deleted, etc. I know that many people were just reacting to my somewhat careless use of the phrase: "clocking someone". A lesson for the future to elaborate my words a bit more carefully?

Thanks for sharing your example.
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top