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Advantages of AA Batteries/S1 & S2 ?!

  • Thread starter Thread starter gail
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Why hasn't there been a new widely accepted battery format? What we really need is a new "standard" size battery like the Crv3 with higher voltage for S1 sized cameras. The CP1 is a good compromise for smaller cameras, but needs to be more widely accepted. I think only Nikon uses them (CP = CoolPix, get it?). They make the CP1 compatible cameras more attractive to me. A similar 2AA or Crv3 sized format with higher voltage could be set for larger cameras like the S1, S2, G series, DSLRs (that could use two if needed or get an even larger format) and even the A series.

We could call this new series the Beta series: B, BB, BBB, etc.
--
MjN
 
In short, you're asking to replace the AAs with a new line, the BBs ? Why not just keep the AAs then, and save the extra expense?

If we get a standard format, it should be a Li-Ion one. Nikon is doing it slowly with their EL-EN5 which they use in all their new cameras. Canon have a format that has the same shape, Sony does too, I'm almost sure they're equivalent, just not perfectly the same. Having, say, the AAs and ONE Li-Ion format would benefit everyone, Li-Ion would stop being proprietary and we could all benefit from its smaller size, longer life, added power.

Why didn't anyone propose this earlier? The more I read what I wrote, the more I like it... Maybe we should all write to the manufacturers to propose it, or simply write to Duracell so they design a standard format...
--
bdery

Québec city, Canada
Cool,pix S Q
http://community.webshots.com/user/beder12
 
Well, I sure have learned a lot of new stuff here.

So, when I get rechargeable batteries and a charger, what should I look for. Do I understand these correctly?

2500 mah rechargeables are preferable to over number AA batteries (eg. 1700 maH and 2000 maH)

When buying a charger, I should get one thant can:
  • discharge
  • condition batteries
Have I missed anything?

Also, what is "Trickle Charge?"

I know there have been some recommended batteries and chargers, but if some of you would be kind enough share your recommendations, I'd appreciate it. With 100 posts in this thread, it's kinda difficult to find the ones where recommendations were made . ;-)

Thanks everyone for the input!
--
gail ~ http://www.pbase.com/gailb
My digital camera BLOGs: Canon A510, Panasonic FZ3, Nikon 5400
http://www.digicamhelp.com/digital-camera-blogs/index.htm
 
Trickle charge is basically just a low charge rate that will maintain the charge of the cells. If the charger just charged the cells to their max capacity and then stopped charging altogether, if you didn't use these cells for a week or so they would have lost some of their capacity. Trickle charge ensures they are always fully charged.

Furthermore, try to get a charger that is a 'peak detection' charger. Chargers that stop charging the cells based on temperature or a specified time can severly overcharge the cells and therefore limit their lifespan.
 
Can you tell me if using rechargable batteries, can they
be charged in the camera or do you have to take them out
placed into a charger?

thanks,
Ken
 
Bdery, Nice job claiming what I wrote as your own idea. Except you want ONE format that won't fit all cameras. The three sizes I proposed are for one to fit Elph/Ixus compacts, then another for G-series and A series size, then another for DSLRs. Of course the BBB would be CP1 (which, yes, I did mention), the BB would be roughly Crv3/2AA size, and B size a larger one for DSLRs, hopefully to fit 3 or 4 AA. And of course they would be Li-Ion! What's the use of a new standard it it doesn't adopt the latest tech? And remember I said the voltage would be higher, so that precludes AA's and stronly implies Li-Ion.

It does no good for Canon to have their standard, Sony another (like their memory cards, but that's another story), and Nikon their own. The Duracell CP1 (which the EN-EL5 meets) is a good start for the smallest size, but this discussion points out that a mix of the two forms can result in a better battery solution for larger formats as well.
bdery said:
In short, you're asking to replace the AAs with a new line, the BBs
? Why not just keep the AAs then, and save the extra expense?

If we get a standard format, it should be a Li-Ion one. Nikon is
doing it slowly with their EL-EN5 which they use in all their new
cameras. Canon have a format that has the same shape, Sony does
too, I'm almost sure they're equivalent, just not perfectly the
same. Having, say, the AAs and ONE Li-Ion format would benefit
everyone, Li-Ion would stop being proprietary and we could all
benefit from its smaller size, longer life, added power.

Why didn't anyone propose this earlier? The more I read what I
wrote, the more I like it... Maybe we should all write to the
manufacturers to propose it, or simply write to Duracell so they
design a standard format...
--
bdery

Québec city, Canada
Cool,pix S Q
http://community.webshots.com/user/beder12
Click to expand...
--
MjN
 
Placed in a charger if AAs, and everyone I know of that uses Li-Ions also have to be in charger.

Good reason for that, both types of cells have been known to rupture while charging. You don't want that to happen in your camera. ;)

Only device I have that actually charges AA NiMH's inside is a wireless mouse, but it's low power and the charger is slow (overnight.) Plus, I care a lot less about a $30 cordless mouse than I do a several hundred dollar camera.
 
My Nikon SQ has a craddle/charger (with a slot for a second battery to charge). After one year, I've never had any problems with the battery breaking of leaking or whatever inside the camera. The battery hardly ever goes out of the cam. I've never heard of a battery that does that, except for bateries in the wrong charger, maybe.
--
bdery

Québec city, Canada
Cool,pix S Q
http://community.webshots.com/user/beder12
 
The thread seems to have a life of its own and I was intending not to prolong it. But I decided to add to the discussion when the topic of safety came up. It's true that special precautions are needed when charging Li-Ion batteries because overheating and excessive current can lead to serious problems. That's why Li-Ion batteries must contain a safety circuit to prevent problems. Here is a study to shows that the safety circuits in Li-Ion batteries are not all created equal:

http://t5r.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/e1/clonetests.htm

To my disappointment the study found that the Sterlingtek battery fared the worst. I have some Sterlingtek batteries and have recommended them in this forum. I've had no problems but after reading the study I now monitor carefully when I charge my Sterlingtek batteries and I no can no longer recommend them.

I think aftermarket Li-Ion batteries can be as good as those from the camera companies as this study shows. Unfortunately, except for the Energizer, whose price is near that of the camera company batteries, the ones found good seems to be from UK sources.

I know there will be a responses to this post to say they won't use aftermarket batteries because in case of a battery mishap it will void their warranty. The FACT is that the camera companies do not warranty against ANY battery mishap, including with their own battery. That's because your mishandling the battery can cause the problem. That's their position if you make a claim. Read your warranty if you doubt this.

I hope this shed some light on the safety aspects of using Li-Ion batteries.

--mamallama
johngeek said:
Now, they weren't being charged at the time, but
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0%2C2933%2C139412%2C00.html

Haven't noticed with the LI-ion charger, but the NiMH's will get
pretty warm. Only LI-Ion camera we have is an s230 (small battery
big advantage in that pocket-sized camera.) That one doesn't
charge in the camera though.
Click to expand...
 
depends where you are buying really. Any microprocessor charger should have individual charging of each cell, voltage gradient disconnection, fault recognition of each cell, automatic switch to trickle charge, over temperature control, and the best will have a defined discharge switch.

In the US Maha are highly rated but there are a few good makes, in Europe Ansmann make good chargers. I have both and can recommend them unreservedly.

The defined discharge will empty the cell before charging starts and will optimise the life of your NiMH if used once every three months or so when re-charging. A good charger costs a few $ more, but will pay for itself for years afterwards in rapid and reliable long life charging of your AAs.
http://www.steves-digicams.com/2002_reviews/maha_c401fs.html
the cheaper maha 204 is also good.
gail said:
Interesting. Any suggestions as to a reliable charger that has this
feature?

thanks,
--
gail ~ http://www.pbase.com/gailb
My digital camera BLOGs: Canon A510, Panasonic FZ3, Nikon 5400
http://www.digicamhelp.com/digital-camera-blogs/index.htm
Click to expand...
 
The most important question raised by zorensen and others is lost in this long thread:

Freedom of choice

The cameras should be made to accept various kinds of batteries.

There is also no reason why the size and specifications of Li-Ion of cannot be standardized. Cameras for Li-Ion Batteries should be built around Standard Li-Ion batteries.

We know this will hurt the profits, but at least for the sake of environment the manufacturers need to establish standards for ALL batteries.

This will not happen unless we all try to avoid cameras with non-standard batteries. Li-Ion batteries have definite advantages over the heavier NiMH but I doubt that those advantages outweigh this.

This is one reason that, after long research, I decided to get a Canon a510 for the inexpensive compact P&S, and I plan to replace my Sony W1 with a W5 or W7 (I hesitate only because it lacks manual white balance)
 
1Singh:

I AGREE with you as a consumer, but in a free enterprise system , Freedom of choice** also extends to the manufacturers. Refusing to buy products without standardized batteries will help VERY little because manufacturers will entice you with other featurers, like better WB.

Why only for the camera business? Look at the many sizes of batteries for automobiles. Should we campaign for standardization there too?

--mamallama
1Singh said:
The most important question raised by zorensen and others is lost
in this long thread:

Freedom of choice

The cameras should be made to accept various kinds of batteries.

There is also no reason why the size and specifications of Li-Ion
of cannot be standardized. Cameras for Li-Ion Batteries should be
built around Standard Li-Ion batteries.
Click to expand...
 
We have standards for plumbing and electrical fixtures. The automobiles are different, but I think standardization always helps. I would say that if, in the future we have to remove and recharge our automobile battery everyday then, these should be standardized also.
mamallama said:
Why only for the camera business? Look at the many sizes of
batteries for automobiles. Should we campaign for standardization
there too?
Click to expand...
 
Standardization would be great. If flashlight, boombox, toy, and a host of other manufacturers can do it, so could camera makers.

Having said that, until/unless it has a significant impact on sales they'll never do it. They make $$$ on after-market accessories. As much as I prefer the NiMhs in most cases, I wouldn't rule out a great camera with proprietary batteries. As much as other prefer the Li-Ions, I doubt many would rule out an otherwise great camera just because it used AAs.

Some standards are stuck, let's just be grateful they all use 1/4-20 tripod threads. ;)
 
johngeek:

Hmmm...Flashlights standard?? I'm looking at my flashlights now and I see at least 6, each using a different battery. My portable power tools have four different types of batteries. There are even at least two sizes of tripod screw threads although the 1/4-20 is the most common. Go to a store with a big tripod selection and you will see one with a larger thread. Standardization is not likely unless a group of manufacturers set up a committee to control it as they have, say for USB.

I'm with you, I want standardization, but I'm also a realist.

--mamallama
johngeek said:
Standardization would be great. If flashlight, boombox, toy, and a
host of other manufacturers can do it, so could camera makers.
Click to expand...
 
Six different flashlight batteries? All of ours are AA, AAA, or D's. I've seen C cells, and some "keychain" lights that use watch batteries. AA and D flashlights are easy to find though...

It would be interesting to find out the history of D, C, and AA battery sizes. Did the battery makers come up with it or did flashlight (or whatever) manufacturers come up with it? And what happened to B and A?

Yeah, the power tools are the same way as the cameras, the manufacturers try to lock you into a brand. They're next to impossible to find third-party replacements for too.

On the tripod threads, 1/4-20 is pretty much standard for smaller cameras, 35mm size and down. 3/8-16 is for the larger format beasts, and Bogen uses that to mount their heads to their tripods.

As far as standards go, iwe should really consider ourselves lucky that the camera makers have pretty much standardized on memory cards (with the exception of Sony... didn't they learn anything with betamax?.) At least we can be thankful for that. :D
mamallama said:
Hmmm...Flashlights standard?? I'm looking at my flashlights now and
I see at least 6, each using a different battery. My portable
power tools have four different types of batteries. There are even
at least two sizes of tripod screw threads although the 1/4-20 is
the most common. Go to a store with a big tripod selection and you
will see one with a larger thread. Standardization is not likely
unless a group of manufacturers set up a committee to control it as
they have, say for USB.

I'm with you, I want standardization, but I'm also a realist.

--mamallama
johngeek said:
Standardization would be great. If flashlight, boombox, toy, and a
host of other manufacturers can do it, so could camera makers.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
johngeek said:
Six different flashlight batteries? All of ours are AA, AAA, or
D's. I've seen C cells, and some "keychain" lights that use watch
batteries. AA and D flashlights are easy to find though...
Click to expand...
Never said I had 6 flashlight batteries. I said I have 6 flashlights that use different batteries. They include the 6V latern battery, Batteries in two rechargeables flashlights (Homeworks and First Alert) and batteries in flashlights by Makita and DeWalt. If I look around here there might be more. The point is that flashlights don't all use standard battries, much like digital cameras.
johngeek said:
It would be interesting to find out the history of D, C, and AA
battery sizes. Did the battery makers come up with it or did
flashlight (or whatever) manufacturers come up with it? And what
happened to B and A?
Click to expand...
A and B battery designations were reserved for batteries used to power vacuum tube devices (before semiconductors and much before integrated circuits), A was designated to power the filament circuit (normally 6.3 volts) and B the plate supply, the B+ supply. The 6.3v led-acid battery is what used to called the A battery. Later the 6v lantern battery was called the A battery. C and D were for flashlights but as flashlights and their batteries got smaller they couldn't use A because I was already taken, so they came up with AA and AAA. Now the half size (short) AA battery is called the N battery, I think. Things were much simplier and slower then and I think the designations just grew by general agreement, rather than by a standards comittee like is needed now to standardize anything.
johngeek said:
Yeah, the power tools are the same way as the cameras, the
manufacturers try to lock you into a brand. They're next to
impossible to find third-party replacements for too.

On the tripod threads, 1/4-20 is pretty much standard for smaller
cameras, 35mm size and down. 3/8-16 is for the larger format
beasts, and Bogen uses that to mount their heads to their tripods.
Click to expand...
I have a Rollie that has a 3/8-16 thread. I have an adapter to reduce it to 1/4-20. Needless to say, I not using it much nowadays.
johngeek said:
As far as standards go, iwe should really consider ourselves lucky
that the camera makers have pretty much standardized on memory
cards (with the exception of Sony... didn't they learn anything
with betamax?.) At least we can be thankful for that. :D
Click to expand...
Yes, with CF and now SD cards. Sony thinks it can be unique because it thinks it can entice consumers with better features. For digicams, it doesn't seem to have been successful.

--mamallama
johngeek said:
mamallama said:
Hmmm...Flashlights standard?? I'm looking at my flashlights now and
I see at least 6, each using a different battery. My portable
power tools have four different types of batteries. There are even
at least two sizes of tripod screw threads although the 1/4-20 is
the most common. Go to a store with a big tripod selection and you
will see one with a larger thread. Standardization is not likely
unless a group of manufacturers set up a committee to control it as
they have, say for USB.

I'm with you, I want standardization, but I'm also a realist.

--mamallama
johngeek said:
Standardization would be great. If flashlight, boombox, toy, and a
host of other manufacturers can do it, so could camera makers.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
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