****Challenge 91 New Thread****

I hate like heck picking on the posts of others in the challenge, but it's by the examples of what is and isn't the "decisive moment" that we're going to understand this concept.

You say of the post "The recycler": "Brilliant shot, perfect for the challenge...". Again, I just don't get it. It's a great image for sure and the B&W treatment is very appropriate. But... I see no dynamic with the scene. The shot could have been taken anywhere on the street with the same effect. If there had been another person reacting to this guy, or a sign "Do Not Litter", or something of that nature, I could see it. But as it stands, I don't see how it's an example of the "decisive moment".

My sincere apologies to aaron d for picking on his image. Nothing personal.
--
-Jerry
Sony V1 - Still learning...
http://www.pbase.com/icicle50/root

Oh yes this one is great ! Inspiring even )
--
.....Penelope

http://www.pennypics.com

--
http://motion.smugmug.com

The Dynamic Element

Although it's possible to set the scene, the dynamic element is much more difficult to arrange. According to Henri Cartier Bresson the dynamic element should be captured on the fly. That is: it should not appear to have been posed or arranged, the point being that at any point the scene can change and the moment will be lost, this creates a tension in the picture which makes it compelling.

Even so there are certain tricks which he may have used to make it happen, these include:

Setting a trap
The puddle



Lets look again at this one, I can imagine him setting up the shot then calling out at just the right moment to make the guy turn around



Another trick is to capturing someone while sleeping (they might wake up or move suddenly so this is not a contradiction) - a mean trick but very effective
Look again at this one



Here the dynamic element is quite small - in this case the wine bottle and glass



If all else fails using a dynamic camera angle instead



Finally this one looks as if it might have been posed but it's so brilliant we have to give him the benefit of the doubt



More to follow in my next post.......nearly at the end now
--
.....Penelope

http://www.pennypics.com

Penelope,

Kudos on a great challenge theme. I've never read The Decisive Moment and this thread is providing a wealth of information. I'll always see Cartier-Bressons work in a new light following this challenge.

I spent quite a bit of time on the Magnum Photos site you provided ( http://www.magnumphotos.com/c/htm/TreePf_MAG.aspx?ID=HCB ). After clicking "The Decisive Moment" link, I went through all 14 pages of the photos. I'm certainly seeing the interaction of static, dynamic, and synergy in many of the photos, some of which you've shared as examples in this thread.

My quandry is that there are a whole group of photos that I would classify as portraits, such as the Truman Capote, Henri Matisse, and Georges Rouault on page 7 or the Imperial Court eunuch on page 13. Can you (or anyone) elaborate on how these fit into the definition of the decisive moment?

Many thanks,

Michael

--

Galleries:
http://www.pbase.com/mtpuff

I'm so sorry he felt compelled to do this. His interpretation of the Challenge theme might not have been inline with our host's interpretation, but our tradition has always been to interpret the theme any way we saw fit. If the voters didn't agree with our personal interpretations, they showed it by which photos they voted for.

Danny (nzmacro) has been around a long long time and is a really good photographer. I hope he comes back.

Nancy

and not because of any ill feelings or anything. Quite simply, as I learned more about the "decisive moment" - and believe me I don't think I got the concept completely yet - I truly felt the images I posted didn't fit the theme. This theme - unlike most themes for our challenges - does have some pretty specific criteria established by the masters of the art, and, if the image doesn't have these elements, it simply doesn't fit no matter how much we would like it to or how far we stretch the criteria. If we are to learn what this style is about, I think it's self-defeating, and in no one's best interest to have poor examples in the galleries. The only reason I didn't replace mine is, on searching the images I have on hand, nothing seemed to really fit without quite a stretch.

Just my $0.02
--
-Jerry
Sony V1 - Still learning...
http://www.pbase.com/icicle50/root

I did find a shot to post grin

And my apologies for taking this whole theme a bit too seriously.

Just to show I have sense of humor after all, check out my post in the Exhibition Gallery ;-)
--
-Jerry
Sony V1 - Still learning...
http://www.pbase.com/icicle50/root

Jerry, I suggest that you dwell a moment on that word "learned".

JerryCurtis said:

and not because of any ill feelings or anything. Quite simply, as I
learned more about the "decisive moment" - and believe me I don't
think I got the concept completely yet - I truly felt the images I
posted didn't fit the theme.

Click to expand...

Naturally anyone is free to withdraw their images from a Challenge. However I prefer to see this done as substitution if and when the artist comes up with what he or she feels to be a more appropriate entry, not unilaterally and simply because the person comes to think that the image is somehow "unworthy" of the topic or of the Challenge itself.

If for no other reason, leaving your images there meanwhile can help by providing useful comparisons and points of reference for yourself and others. As an aside to this, I can recall it being stated some time back, by somebody or other, that supposedly off-topic images should not be permitted to stay in a Challenge gallery because they can pollute the atmosphere engendered by the topic.

Personally I find that statement outrageous: elitism and didacticism at their worst. This is not some prestigious knock-out competition where you make the cut or you don't. Yes, the Challenges are meant to be a learning environment, but a mutual, cordial and informal one in which "facilitate" and not "dictate" is the operative word.

The Challenges are also supposed to be fun.

JerryCurtis said:

This theme - unlike most themes for
our challenges - does have some pretty specific criteria
established by the masters of the art,

Click to expand...

"[Challenge] criteria established by the masters of the art"??

I imply no disprespect whatever to the host who has demonstrated a most impressive photographic and artistic talent. However, the only "masters of the art" being cited here are history's photographic giants -- Cartier Bresson in particular. What you need to remember is that everyone on this planet has an equal entitlement to make their own interpretation of the work of the masters.

Don't sell yourself short. Above all, you should feel free to experiment, and to permit your work to be considered by all concerned. By all means invite critiques using a [ ] in your title. There is ample opportunity for people's thoughts to be expressed in the Comments area, and it is hoped that those posted in the name of relevance will always emody the same tact and cordiality expected of those commenting on your photographic artistry.

Remember that we are involved in a community workshop, not a master class. And in the end it has always been intended that it's the voters who decide both relevance and artistic merit. The host-adjudicator model is really the province of the mini-challenges. At least that's understood to be the Challenge tradition.

--
Mike
Melbourne

Mike Fitzgerald said:

If for no other reason, leaving your images there meanwhile can
help by providing useful comparisons and points of reference for
yourself and others.

Click to expand...

That was my intention at first, Mike, but, little or no feedback was happening in the galleries. Posts that clearly didn't meet the criteria (like my own) weren't being criticized. Yes, it was pointed out here in this thread, but not everyone has the time to sift through all this discussion. So, it wasn't being made clear there which images were somewhere near the theme and which were clearly not.

Mike Fitzgerald said:

Mike Fitzgerald said:

This theme - unlike most themes for
our challenges - does have some pretty specific criteria
established by the masters of the art,

Click to expand...

"[Challenge] criteria established by the masters of the art"??

I imply no disprespect whatever to the host who has demonstrated a
most impressive photographic and artistic talent. However, the only
"masters of the art" being cited here are history's photographic
giants -- Cartier Bresson in particular.

Click to expand...

That's exactly to whom I was referring, Mike. It wasn't in any way a sideswipe at Penelope - if that's what you thought. Penelope and I have had a great exchange here and I have learned much from her about this subject. I still have trouble with the finer points of the concept, but I understand it much better now than I did before this challenge started, thanks entirely to Penelope and her examples and explanations.

Mike Fitzgerald said:

Don't sell yourself short. Above all, you should feel free to
experiment, and to permit your work to be considered by all
concerned. By all means invite critiques using a [ ] in your title.

Click to expand...

I did this in the first few challenges I participated in, but most seem reluctant to criticize. I have made it clear, both here on STF and in the challenges, that I invite and welcome constructive criticizm on any image I post... always! BTW, I expect that the significance of the * is lost on many posters to the challenges of late - they just think it's part of the image title.

Mike Fitzgerald said:

Remember that we are involved in a community workshop, not a master
class. And in the end it has always been intended that it's the
voters who decide both relevance and artistic merit. The
host-adjudicator model is really the province of the
mini-challenges. At least that's understood to be the Challenge
tradition.

Click to expand...

Hey... I already apologized for being too serious about this one, and tried to inject a little levity into the process with my latest image post to the Exhibition Gallery. BTW, it's only half in jest... the image is not that far off the mark (IMHO). How's that for a personal interpretation? ;-)

Thanks for your usual thoughtful feedback, Mike. Always appreciated, both on this and the technical matters.

--
-Jerry
Sony V1 - Still learning...
http://www.pbase.com/icicle50/root

Michael Puff said:

Can you (or anyone) elaborate on how these [portraits] fit into the
definition of the decisive moment?

Click to expand...

imo, they don't. but the examples you cite are part of the book collection, entitled "the decisive moment" ... not every photograph in this book (wonderful, btw, i've owned it for some time) is a strict "decisive moment"

cheers micheal,

andy

Andy Williams said:

Michael Puff said:

Can you (or anyone) elaborate on how these [portraits] fit into the
definition of the decisive moment?

Click to expand...

imo, they don't. but the examples you cite are part of the book
collection, entitled "the decisive moment" ... not every
photograph in this book (wonderful, btw, i've owned it for some
time) is a strict "decisive moment"

cheers micheal,

andy

Click to expand...

of course, now i went and spent some more time with good old hcb here's a portrait, that i would say does qualify as a "decisive moment," becuase hcb took it in an instant - no planning - none!

http://www.magnumphotos.com/c/htm/CDocZ_MAG.aspx?Stat=DocThumb_DocZoom&o=&DT=ALB&E=2TYRYD1D518O&Pass=&Total=125&Pic=27&SubE=2S5RYDIISGW5

so as with most things in life, there are no absolutes

cheers again michael,

andy

I couldn't really figure out why a bullet going through an egg is not considered a "decisive moment" so in that case I have no idea at all Nancy ). Maybe this one is more of the arty farty stuff, so I'll wait and see what other B/W people see. ) Maybe I should be French, LOL.

All the best Nancy as always. Not a problem really )

Danny.

--
...........................

http://www.macrophotos.com

http://www.photomacrography.net
...........................
Worry about the image that comes out of the box, rather than the box itself.

Hi Dany

First let me say that your entries were very beautiful, and no criticism was meant or implied by my comment, but I'm sure that you know that.

I know that this is not a straight forward challenge and it's a little different for that reason, I just wanted you to take a look at the lively discussion that has been going on in this thread and find out what it's all about.

Of course the challenges are a fun thing, and of course you are free to post anything you think fits the theme, but it would be a shame not to at least try to take the opportunity to learn from a master of the art even though he was French!
--
.....Penelope

http://www.pennypics.com

Nancy,

I think that the whole idea of having a topic for a challenge, even a friendly one, is to submit photographs that go somehow with the challenge topic and guidelines. This was the whole fun of it.

It is also true that being a friendly challenge, people put sometimes all kinds of photos just for the fun of it and the voters decided.

It also goes without saying, unless there are new rules now, that it is up to the host to express his/hers opinion about a photo by leaving a message in the galleries. Actually, if it hasn't yat been changed, everyone is free to do it.

In this perticular case, Penelope left a note on Danny's photo, in a very friendly and polite way, telling that the photo is beautiful and asked him to refer to the challenge thread. I don't think there was anything offending in it.

I think that no one asked Danny to take out his photo and he didn't have to do it, it was his own decision and he probably had his own reasons to do it.

BTW, I also submitted photos in at the beginning but I replaced three of them after reading and understanding the topic.

One thing is sure here, this topic has made more waves than most. Maybe because it is a bit more sophosticated and requires a bit of study and a different artistic approach for which I have the feeling, not everyone is willing to invest.

Cheers
Moti

JerryCurtis said:

I did this in the first few challenges I participated in, but most
seem reluctant to criticize. I have made it clear, both here on STF
and in the challenges, that I invite and welcome constructive
criticizm on any image I post... always! BTW, I expect that the
significance of the * is lost on many posters to the challenges of
late - they just think it's part of the image title.

Click to expand...

I've been learning from the discussion between Penelope and Jerry, too, and encourage everyone to take a look at my photos in the eligible category and criticize them constructively. I think that they both fit the criteria, but am open to other interpretations. Going back to what Cartier-Bresson said:

"To me, photography is the simultaneous recognition, in a fraction of a second, of the significance of an event as well as of a precise organization of forms which give that event its proper expression."

So starting with my submission "Late for Work," I think that I've captured an event of arguable significance--some people are going to consider it significant and others aren't. But I think I've nailed the precise organization of forms that give that event its proper expression. On the left we have a trash bin and laundry hanging on lines, symbolizing the domestic disorder that this woman is leaving behind by going to the more orderly environment of work. We can imagine that she's late for the very reason that she had to take care of some domestic chores, such as taking out the trash or doing laundry. The dilapidated architecture adds to the effect. Your eye is drawn to her white shoes, which provide a contrast to the background and are the dynamic element. Her shoes are simultaneously her vehicle for getting out of the home and her ticket into the professional world of world. And this scene was clearly of an extremely short duration--literally a tenth of a second later her feet were in different positions, and her head didn't line up with that gap in the line on the wall.

On to "The Terrible Twos." Here, I think most of us can agree that this event is of significance--something that just about every parent deals with at some point and will find familiar. It does not strictly fit Penelope's criterion of being of extremely short duration--the whole scene lasted a good 2-3 minutes. But going back to Cartier-Bresson, I don't see this requirement for an event of extremely short duration. What I see is a requirement for RECOGNITION and ORGANIZATION OF FORMS in a fraction of a second. These elements are here. The kid and his parents are at opposite ends of the frame, showing the breakdown in communication that has taken place and the standoff. The father and mother have different expressions on their faces, showing the different reactions and tactics that parents can take when encountering the same situation. It's clear from the kid's position and the dad's expression that the kid is having a conniption that is more theater than reality. But can we be so sure? Maybe the kid is hurt and the dad's expression shows a callous attitude? Maybe the parents are the Terrible Two and not the kid? The viewer has some doubt about what's really going on. The tension is reinforced by the distance between the two parties and their being divided by the light pole and door. Notice that there are also two windows above the one kid and one streetlamp above the two parents, providing some symmetry. With the angle of the sidewalk and the frame, you get a sense that the two parties are at either end of a seesaw, testing their weight.

Anyway, those are just my thoughts, and I welcome any and all input from STF members. Thanks in advance.

-Colin

As this thread has become a bit disjointed with all the discussion in between, I thought I would first provide links to the important parts of it

Introduction - read this before you post
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=13236614

Synergy - the spark
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=13236781

What the "decisive moment" is NOT
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=13236878

The Static element - setting the scene
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=13248301

The Dynamic element - tips
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=13255608

To Sum up

There are 3 main elements in Cartier Bresson's work that make his photographic genius, which he calls "capturing the decisive moment". A combination of

The background scene - the static element

The subject - Someone or something caught in the fraction of a second that appears to be spontaneous (the dynamic element)

A strong "spark" that relates the subject (dynamic element) to the background (the static element) - The synergy - Examples of this are as follows

Body language
A poster or picture in the background
A contrast between the subject and the background
A similarity between the subject and the background
Graphical composition, light dark, shading

For examples please refer to the above threads.
All the examples were taken from Magnum photos excellent site at

http://www.magnumphotos.com/c/htm/TreePf_MAG.aspx?Stat=Photographers_Portfolio&E=29YL53IQ1W7

I know that this is a little different from the usual challenge but I think it's a lot of fun and I'm really enjoying your entries
Please feel free to continue to ask questions, i'll try my best to answer
--
.....Penelope

http://www.pennypics.com

Hi Colin

Sorry I've been a bit caught up on the forum answering questions, and catching up on my work, so I havent had time to leave anything on the galleries. You're on the right track , as soon as I have a few mins I'll leave you some comments )
--
.....Penelope

http://www.pennypics.com

I wouldn't suggest that your images don't meet the criteria for the "decisive moment". It's just that I feel that the synergy or link between the dynamic and the static should be a little more obvious and graphic. For instance: a sign "Slow - Children at Play" in the scene as a contrast, or a painted form on the wall of a stick figure running as a supporting element; or a street person lying asleep in the ally, or a park bench with someone leaning back relaxing with a puzzled look as to why she's running, as contrasting elements. These would be examples of ideal elements in the static part of the equation as I understand the concept.

With the Terrible Twos, if the parents had been running toward the fallen child, it would have been a much stronger image. The way they are, the tension doesn't seem to be there.

Just my $0.02 (and I'm no expert, believe me... I'm "still learning", too)
--
-Jerry
Sony V1 - Still learning...
http://www.pbase.com/icicle50/root

thanks jerry,

I've (along with others) have been having issues around grasping the concept here, and with your quote below it just fell into place.

Colin, I've not read all the posts is this thread so it may have been said before, but generally with the STF challenges, if you add an asterix ( ) to the end of the title this signifies that you're open for feedback & critisism.

JerryCurtis said:

the synergy or link
between the dynamic and the static should be a little more obvious

Click to expand...

--
Adrian K
W12 Samples
http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=4286336121