****Challenge 91 New Thread****

In view of the fact that the original thread had become so polluted with bitching, personal insults and back biting, I have decided to create a new thread for the Challenge

Please be so kind as to leave this new thread free of any matters that are not related to the topic. Those who have difficulties with this are kindly requested to leave their comments to the previous thread. The full challenge information can still be found at

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=13206681

I hope that we can now continue in a nice and friendly fashion
--
.....Penelope

http://www.pennypics.com

Penelope -

Is it OK to delete one of my own entries out of the exhibition gallery, and resubmit another?

Thanks.

--
Salman Ahmed
My galleries: http://www.pbase.com/ssahmed

This is an attempt to define the Decisive Moment - Cartier Bresson

I thought I would try to explain the decisive moment as defined by Henri Cartier Bresson to help you with the topic.

He took very dull everyday subjects and made them into masterpieces and there is a lot to be learned from his technique.

His photos contain at least thee elements which all come together in what he called the "decisive moment" These are :-

static - the scene
dynamic - usually people
synergy - usually something in the static which reinforces the dynamic

This can be a similarity
Here are some examples





It can also be a an opposite -



It can use words -

The sign on the wall reads "Pleasure without limits"



............To be continued ....More in the next post
--
.....Penelope

http://www.pennypics.com

No problem
--
.....Penelope

http://www.pennypics.com

Penelope said:

static - the scene
dynamic - usually people
synergy - usually something in the static which reinforces the dynamic

Click to expand...

Synergy continued

Synergy can also be conveyed with the body language or expression





a graphic element - contrast, shape, framing



Contrast : Note how the man's head is sihouetted against the mist in the background



Shape



Framing

This is not an exhaustive list but an attempt to explain his vision,.... more in the next post............to be continued

.....Penelope

http://www.pennypics.com

Penelope said:

Penelope said:

static - the scene
dynamic - usually people
synergy - usually something in the static which reinforces the dynamic

Click to expand...

Synergy continued

Click to expand...

Synergy is defined as that element which if included makes the whole much greater than the sum of it's parts and transforms the banal into pure magic.

Synergy provides a reinforcement of the relationship of the subject to its background and is vital to the decisive moment as defined by Henri Cartier Bresson and others

Photos without synergy cannot be defined as being a decisive moment no matter how important they may be to us, birth , marriage, death, dripping taps, broken eggs and holiday snaps can not be "decisive moments" in the context of this challenge without the element of synergy

More in my next post...........to be continued
--
.....Penelope

http://www.pennypics.com

What are you doing posting dirty pictures here? ;-)

Just joking, of course...

This is great stuff, Penelope. I think I'm starting to appreciate this guy's style. Keep these examples coming - with insights.

Thanks
--
-Jerry
Sony V1 - Still learning...
http://www.pbase.com/icicle50/root

Ok I'll try.....
--
.....Penelope

http://www.pennypics.com

I really want to "get" this concept.

You mention what the decisive moment is not - with some examples. The mention of marriage was, I take it, in reference to the shot I posted of a man and woman kissing to seal their marriage vows... against a beautiful pastoral background.

I'm not in any way offended if this doesn't fit the criteria, but I would very much like to understand why it doesn't - especially when two people kissing on a beach seems to fit...???

--
-Jerry
Sony V1 - Still learning...
http://www.pbase.com/icicle50/root

Not that you aren't posting great examples of the work and helping explain the subject of the challenge, but I just want to make sure I got it.

I know that people shots with an element of life-capture or spontaneity is challenge-worthy. I know that certain animal shots with the same slice-of-life or once-in-a-lifetime moment is challenge-worthy. I also assume that any people or animal capture which feels like a lucky grab or spontaneous moment...something that couldn't likely ever be set up or captured again would qualify.

But what about more static or natural shots that capture similarly unique moments that cannot be duplicated? For example, what if someone captured a lightning bolt? A building wall collapsing? A moment of a storm with a particular cloud formation? A river in flood stage? I just want to know if those natural or static moments would qualify under the theme, since I don't think Carter-Bresson ever photographed such subject matter.

Also, is there a preference towards a dramatic contrast or element of struggle which is desired for the challenge? Since Carter-Bresson's photography often captured dramatic or powerful moments and often showed contrast of poverty, street life, war aftermath, prejudice and other powerful imagery against the backdrop of everyday life.

Thanks for any clarification!

--
Justin

JerryCurtis said:

I really want to "get" this concept.

You mention what the decisive moment is not - with some examples.
The mention of marriage was, I take it, in reference to the shot I
posted of a man and woman kissing to seal their marriage vows...
against a beautiful pastoral background.

I'm not in any way offended if this doesn't fit the criteria, but I
would very much like to understand why it doesn't - especially when
two people kissing on a beach seems to fit...???

--
-Jerry

Click to expand...

if you had caught the kiss, in a public place, like the sailor kissing the woman in nyc's times square on ve-day, 1945, well that's a decisive moment... the kiss at a wedding is more scripted, you know it's gonna happen. a decisive moment, just happens you can improve your chance of finding one by getting out wiht your camera, lots.. and you can try the fishing technique i describe in the other challenge thread.

hope this helps, and good luck!

andy

Ok Jerry, I'll try.

First of all your wedding pic's a great shot. I can see why it might be difficult to see why it may not a decisive moment in this context as the subject is similar to the couple on the beach, and the concept is quite hard to grasp.

I think there are 2 things here, the main one is the reinforcement of the subject, the "synergy" if you like. The couple on the beach stand out graphically because of the contrast with the background and the form of the waves, this reinforces the effect of the kiss.

There is also the question of setting the scene and its repeatability which I intend to explore in my next post. The idea is basically that although you can choose the scene, the dynamic element should be spontaneous, unrepeatable, and not appear to be "posed".

Does this help?
--
.....Penelope

http://www.pennypics.com

that might be the problem. I just wanted to confirm that the activity has to be more spontaneous or unexpected to fit the criteria. So, if a bridesmaid and the groom kissed in that same setting, that would qualify, huh? ;-)

Anyway, the other one I posted... with the girls catching up on gossip at the wedding... I know it's not a real strong or riveting image, but how does that one fit or not fit?

Thanks much
--
-Jerry
Sony V1 - Still learning...
http://www.pbase.com/icicle50/root

that does help a lot, Penelope.

I'm finding that some images clearly fit the "decisive moment", but I'm finding it much more difficult to determine which ones don't. Well, some clearly don't, but, with some others, it's not too clear.

For instance, Moti's "Take Five". Though a fabulous capture, I wouldn't have thought it fit the criteria. So you're saying that something like matching colors can be the "key". What if that same shot were in B&W?

--
-Jerry
Sony V1 - Still learning...
http://www.pbase.com/icicle50/root

Good question Justin!

Did you read my thread just above "very important read this before you post" where I try to define the elements of the "decisive moment" Its not just the spontanaity or uniqueness of a photo that defines it, but a combination of elements that reinforce each other. I suppose that if you were to find a photo that satisfies this criteria it would be very good

However I do think that the topic is quite difficult enough without moving the edges.

I'll try to find an example that fits your query and get back to you.
--
.....Penelope

http://www.pennypics.com

The whole thing depends on colour for reinforcement, if you make it black and white it wouldnt be any good
--
.....Penelope

http://www.pennypics.com

I hope this helps



The static is provided by the land, the dynamic by the water and the people in the boats, and the reinforcement is provided by the angle of the smoke
--
.....Penelope

http://www.pennypics.com

--
.....Penelope

http://www.pennypics.com

Penelope said:

Penelope said:

Penelope said:

static - the scene
dynamic - usually people
synergy - usually something in the static which reinforces the dynamic

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Synergy is defined as that element which if included makes the
whole much greater than the sum of it's parts and transforms the
banal into pure magic.

Photos without synergy cannot be defined as being a decisive moment
no matter how important they may be to us, birth , marriage, death,
dripping taps, broken eggs and
"holiday snaps" can not be "decisive moments"
in the context of this challenge without the element of
synergy

Click to expand...

Is this Holiday Snaps in reference to my shot "Island Time"???

If yes, I feel that my image fits the criteria of your previously mentioned rules and also matches your photographers style.

Granted it is a beach and not a city street backdrop.......

however, it is the sum of the parts that creates the image......it happened in a split second and it is non-repeatable. The brother and the sister happened to hit the right 1/3 of the picture in a perfect fashion to make the "sum" or complete the image.......it would just be another water/beach shot without them in the picture.

If my opinion is wrong - I would appreciate a better explanation as to why.

thank you,
Ian
--
http://www.ianz28.smugmug.com
Positive or Negative - Critique's are always welcome and appreciated.

I pretty much had the idea down...just trying to test the boundaries. I like these types of photos, and it is an interesting challenge. It lives up to its name for me - it will indeed be challenging, as I find myself fairly uninspired here in Florida to capture those dynamic moments against static backgrounds with dramatic contrast - mainly because such opportunities are few and far between! Everything here is so new and bright and pastel, and everyone so rich and bored looking, that there is rarely an opportunity to capture something interesting. It is actually why I shoot so much of nature and landscapes...there just isn't much else to shoot around here. I get jealous when I see shots from cities and gritty urban areas!

Anyway...I will try to find some inspiration next weekend, and see what I can come up with. If I can't get anything worthy of the Eligible category, I may still try to work up something for Exhibition.

Thanks for the info, and hosting a truly challenging challenge!

--
Justin