Bad color prints

So I decided to try professional printing for the first time. I got a bunch of high quality jpgs (still at 3000x2000 size) printed by a machine at Wal-Mart. I figured if I manned the machine, it would not ask me to color correct or any other stupid adjustments. It didn't so I was happy, figuring it would print to my specifications (I view these pictures on several different monitors and have printed them at home). They came out very red-shifted. My kids look like they are sporting sunburns. Any idea how I can get these printed without corrections?

Thanks,
Matt

msd said:

So I decided to try professional printing for the first time. I
got a bunch of high quality jpgs (still at 3000x2000 size) printed
by a machine at Wal-Mart. I figured if I manned the machine, it
would not ask me to color correct or any other stupid adjustments.
It didn't so I was happy, figuring it would print to my
specifications (I view these pictures on several different
monitors and have printed them at home). They came out very
red-shifted. My kids look like they are sporting sunburns. Any
idea how I can get these printed without corrections?

Thanks,
Matt

Click to expand...

From what I have seen, the mass-market film processors have installed the Fuji kiosks so that we can (rather, so that we will be required to) make all the necessary corrections on digital images and so that they don't have to. This way they are not responsible for what happened to you. When they run negatives the processor's algorithms do a pretty good job but it is more difficult for them to get digital images looking as good. So they put the burden back on the customer. That is where the kiosk comes in. If I want to have someone else print my images I first process them in Photoshop to my liking, then turn them in. Takes more time but that is the nature of the digital age. Are our computers and Photoshop (or equivalent) better than their Kiosks and who knows what CRT calibration? Absolutely!
--
John Power
Racehorse in the Desert

'Life is too short to miss out on photography.'



http://jpowerphotos.smugmug.com

Grrr...

So you're telling me that I have to go back to photoshop and bleed the red out of my photos if I want to use the kiosks (Kodak in this case)? If I followed your reply, you're saying the other alternative is the turn in the digital image (jpg on a CD) to them and they'll do a better job? I don't mind waiting if they won't screw it up. So I can give them a CD and tell them what to print and they'll take directions like "don't screw with the color"?

msd

msd said:

Grrr...

So you're telling me that I have to go back to photoshop and bleed
the red out of my photos if I want to use the kiosks (Kodak in this
case)? If I followed your reply, you're saying the other
alternative is the turn in the digital image (jpg on a CD) to them
and they'll do a better job? I don't mind waiting if they won't
screw it up. So I can give them a CD and tell them what to print
and they'll take directions like "don't screw with the color"?

msd

Click to expand...

I am just saying that is what I do now, not that it is the best approach. I have been wanting to take about 10 images straight from my camera to Wal-Mart, Costco, Walgreens, and Ritz Camera just to see what they can do with NO adjustments from me. I have not had time to do it yet, but I am afraid that I going to hear them all say, "There's the kiosk, make your own adjustments." Someone who has had a better experience can correct this. So far I don't trust them.
--
John Power
Racehorse in the Desert

'Life is too short to miss out on photography.'



http://jpowerphotos.smugmug.com

This might be totally different, but at work, the digital images we turn into the art department, once processed a little, and converted to CMYK, get a red color shift, especially anything with skin involved like an arm or face, etc. To combat this I now have all of the editors convert their images to tifs and to CMYK, then adjust them before sending them to the art department. Seems to have helped quite a bit, though there is still a hint of it, but not nearly as much as before. I know nothing about what the printers in the outside world are doing, but I would think that quite possibly the software is converting your RGB images to CMYK. I could be completely wrong as well. Anyone know if these printers do convert to CMYK?
BMC
--



http://pbase.com/bmc1

I find that if I use a calibrated monitor and no colour management, then get them printed on a fuji machine, that the colour looks just right. I will say that for the last prints I got done, that the lightness was too high. I use gamma=2.2 and usually prints are correct for lightness, so I don't know whether I hit a mis-adjusted machine or what.

Next time I will got to a different shop to verify this.

Brian

Hi Matt!

Probably not much help for you, but here goes:

For my first printing, I chose some test files, went to four different shops/online services. Compared the results and liked one the best (most expensive). The cheapest service was the second best and offered the easiest (online) file transfer. So now I have the choice, depending on the quality I want.

However, none of these were a kiosk and none of them showed a dramatic tint like you are experiencing. Really seems strange to me.

Good luck anyway
Jens

PS: Did you go back and ask Walmart if other users had similar problems? Could be a defect machine, after all?

What you need to do is to come up with an .icc color profile for the lab you go to. Many should be able to provide you with it if you ask. Do your post processing in your normal color space (aRGB or sRGB), then as a last step, convert the file to the proper profile. Dry Creek Photo has quite a lot of color profiles listed on their site, as well as good directions as to how to go about things (as a .pdf download). http://www.drycreekphoto.com/ Remember, proper color reproduction begins with a properly calibrated monitor. if you don't have that covered, you are only guessing at what the end result might be.
--



http://www.trekearth.com/members/Darren/photos/
http://www.darrenmelrose.com

Have camera, will travel

brianj said:

I find that if I use a calibrated monitor and no colour management, then get them printed on a fuji machine, that the colour looks just right.

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This is what I do as well, works everytime. But the lab I visited uses Noritsu machine. And guess what? The profiles I tried specifically for that lab from Dry Creek Photo didn't work at all. Well, I don't care much anyway since I got the result I wanted w/o profile at all. Why bother?
--
http://www.pbase.com/wlachan/

Matt,

Can you post a couple of those photos or provide a link.... Downsize for the web if required, but don't change anything else... I would like to view them on my calibrated monitor.

Much of the problem you describe, can be attributed to a poorly calibrated monitor.... What you are viewing on your monitor, may not be the correct colour balances etc.

Kind Regards
Richard Higgs
http://www.pbase.com/rhiggs1

msd said:

msd said:

msd said:

msd said:

See my Profile for Camera & Equipment listing

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“Don’t feel you have to take photos of impressive subjects….
Rather, try to take impressive photos of any subject”.

Photography is 50% photographer, 40% light and 10% equipment.

Darren M said:

What you need to do is to come up with an .icc color profile for
the lab you go to. Many should be able to provide you with it if
you ask. Do your post processing in your normal color space (aRGB
or sRGB), then as a last step, convert the file to the proper
profile. Dry Creek Photo has quite a lot of color profiles listed
on their site, as well as good directions as to how to go about
things (as a .pdf download). http://www.drycreekphoto.com/
Remember, proper color reproduction begins with a properly
calibrated monitor. if you don't have that covered, you are only
guessing at what the end result might be.
--

Click to expand...

Yes. The pro lab that I use said that they are providing good output by having their pro shooters send in a profile with their digital files. This is apparently an answer. I am just getting ready to try this. To date I have printed most of my own on my R800, but that's not a good way to print volume.
--
John Power
Racehorse in the Desert

'Life is too short to miss out on photography.'



http://jpowerphotos.smugmug.com

JensR said:

PS: Did you go back and ask Walmart if other users had similar
problems? Could be a defect machine, after all?

Click to expand...

Going to Wal-Mart is the first problem. In my experience they pull some guy out of the stockroom and say, "You are running the photo department today!" This is an exaggeration, but I don't find photo-processing gurus there, more like clerks. I have found some good people at some Ritz and Walgreens stores though, who do a pretty good job with their Fuji Frontiers.
--
John Power
Racehorse in the Desert

'Life is too short to miss out on photography.'



http://jpowerphotos.smugmug.com

Could also be attributed to not doing a final proof with the profile of the printer. I had one photo done on a Noritsu that I forgot to proof before sending. The skin came out very reddish. I had it redone after proofing and touching up the brightness and white balance and it came out fine.

RG

racehorse in the desert said:

Going to Wal-Mart is the first problem. In my experience they pull
some guy out of the stockroom and say, "You are running the photo
department today!" This is an exaggeration, but I don't find
photo-processing gurus there, more like clerks. I have found some
good people at some Ritz and Walgreens stores though, who do a
pretty good job with their Fuji Frontiers.

Click to expand...

Actually, nowadays with the Frontier (and similar), printing systems, you can get very good, consistent results from Walmart. Actually, in some cases, because they do a high volume, you can get better prints, because their chemicals have to be changed regularly. Assuming the store does this, it is amazing what can happen, even with totally unqualified people running things.

Now, things are so automated, it takes the processor out of the equation to a large degree. What counts more is how regularly they change their chemistry and how diligent they are in their upkeep. I actually know a pro wedding photographer in Vancouver who has moved away from her pro lab and gone to Costco, simply because with the proper profiles, she is getting more consistent results at Costco. Of course, while she is having prints made, she can also get an oil change, buy a BBQ and pick up condoms for the weekend

racehorse in the desert said:

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racehorse in the desert said:

John Power
Racehorse in the Desert

'Life is too short to miss out on photography.'



http://jpowerphotos.smugmug.com

Click to expand...

--



http://www.trekearth.com/members/Darren/photos/
http://www.darrenmelrose.com

Have camera, will travel

Darren M said:

Darren M said:

Going to Wal-Mart is the first problem. In my experience they pull
some guy out of the stockroom and say, "You are running the photo
department today!" This is an exaggeration, but I don't find
photo-processing gurus there, more like clerks. I have found some
good people at some Ritz and Walgreens stores though, who do a
pretty good job with their Fuji Frontiers.

Click to expand...

Actually, nowadays with the Frontier (and similar), printing
systems, you can get very good, consistent results from Walmart.
Actually, in some cases, because they do a high volume, you can get
better prints, because their chemicals have to be changed
regularly. Assuming the store does this, it is amazing what can
happen, even with totally unqualified people running things.

Now, things are so automated, it takes the processor out of the
equation to a large degree. What counts more is how regularly they
change their chemistry and how diligent they are in their upkeep.
I actually know a pro wedding photographer in Vancouver who has
moved away from her pro lab and gone to Costco, simply because with
the proper profiles, she is getting more consistent results at
Costco. Of course, while she is having prints made, she can also
get an oil change, buy a BBQ and pick up condoms for the weekend

Darren M said:

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Sorry, must respectfully disagree. And I am not anti-Wal-Mart.
--
John Power
Racehorse in the Desert

'Life is too short to miss out on photography.'



http://jpowerphotos.smugmug.com

racehorse in the desert said:

Sorry, must respectfully disagree. And I am not anti-Wal-Mart.

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No worries. I would guess a lot comes down to the management at any particular WalMart as wo how often they change chems and how strict they are in their maintenance.

racehorse in the desert said:

--
John Power
Racehorse in the Desert

'Life is too short to miss out on photography.'

Click to expand...

--



http://www.trekearth.com/members/Darren/photos/
http://www.darrenmelrose.com

Have camera, will travel

Richard Higgs said:

Matt,

Can you post a couple of those photos or provide a link....

Click to expand...

Yes, I will once I get home tonight, thanks!

msd

Well, here is the answer about Wal-Mart (at least the one I went to). I was in a Wal-Mart Supercenter at the photo dept. buying some Li batteries and asked the guy about how he handles digital images. He said, "The customer loads them into the countertop kiosk and then the machine makes the prints." I asked if the customer can make changes and he said, "Sure, zoom, color adjustment, etc." I asked him if he can make changes when they make the prints and he said, "No, I don't even see them. When the customer loads the images into the kiosk they go straight into the machine to be printed. They don't show on the screen. I can't make any adjustments." So I asked about negatives. "In that case they each come up on the screen and we can make adjustments," he said. They are using a Fuji Frontier 390, same as other Wal-Marts in my area.

I had previously asked the same questions in a Walgreens, which uses a smaller Fuji Frontier, and they told me the same thing.

I have tested a Ritz Photo store, which also had a Fuji Frontier, and I got back just what I had given them in terms of color, brightness, contrast, etc. They did nothing that I could see, but I had corrected them beforehand.

So, my perspective remains the same: I don't expect the mass retail photo processors to make improvements to any images that I may take there. I fix them first and then expect them to give me back the same thing I load into their machine.

On the other hand there is a small photo store in my area that has an in-house Agfa machine. He keeps the automatic saturation and sharpness cranked up so high that I don't go there any more. The photos come back looking very bad.
--
John Power
Racehorse in the Desert

'Life is too short to miss out on photography.'



http://jpowerphotos.smugmug.com

racehorse in the desert wrote:
snip...

racehorse in the desert said:

On the other hand there is a small photo store in my area that has
an in-house Agfa machine. He keeps the automatic saturation and
sharpness cranked up so high that I don't go there any more. The
photos come back looking very bad.

Click to expand...

I was (and still am) amazed at the results from one lab here in Adelaide Oz -looked great first go straight out the camera. I think they might have done some auto-adjustments the first time, but I asked the second time round for no adjustments and they were great -I dont use a "proper" profiled monitor, but they were close. On the other hand, I went to another store who use an Agfa, and they had a horrible red/green muddy caste to them -awful, so Ill never go back. I doubt that its the Agfa machine, just the fact that they dont care at all at that store: " I just push print"...

Dave

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Okay, here are the pictures that were so badly red-shifted for me. The first is my son:



And then the actual size I printed:

http://msd.smugmug.com/photos/popup.mg?ImageID=20567968&Size=Original

I understand that he is pink, but the print is ridiculous, he looks like he has a serious sunburn.

And then my daughter:

http://msd.smugmug.com/gallery/409593/1/20567966

And the full-sized jpg:

http://msd.smugmug.com/photos/popup.mg?ImageID=20567966&Size=Original

Again, she was way redder than in real life or on any of the three monitors I have viewed these on.

In general am I better off printing these from the psd format -- do most kiosks/machines recognize psd?

Thanks for any input, I really appreciate the time people take for this kind of thing on this forum.

msd

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