x530 retrospectives

...if you need to make your case, by (relative to CMOS) arguments -- you are a truly lost soul: And I think A.Adams (rest his soul) -- would agree with me.
--
====================================
' Men substitute words for reality and then fight over words'
 
...why the "foveon-fetish"???
What are you talking about?
How old are you?
I am not sure this is at all relevant.
Now you find yourself defending a camera that you neither own --
and is being "recalled" -- by people who know far more about it
than you can ever hope to...
Are you sure about any of the above?
...what's your motivation?
If you cannot understand what I wrote, I can send you an audio version.
Where does your anger come from???
What anger? About dumb posts?

--
Laurence

There is a tide in the affairs of men,
Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;
Omitted, all the voyage of their life
Is bound in shallows and in miseries.

http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/root
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/root
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd10
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9
http://www.beachbriss.com (eternal test site)
 
DT,
I'm not sure if other compact cameras (such as
the X530) handle the large files more quickly.
About .5 seconds until a jpeg appears; about 4 until the buffer (one-shot) clears, and another second until you can actually take the next shot. Jpeg, by comparison, is right there.
My impression is
that compact and RAW don't mix well due to the lack of processing
horsepower.
So you could be right.
Just my thoughts anyway...

Regards,
Damien
--
Laurence

There is a tide in the affairs of men,
Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;
Omitted, all the voyage of their life
Is bound in shallows and in miseries.

http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/root
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/root
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd10
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9
http://www.beachbriss.com (eternal test site)
 
Do you think anyone, in 2005, would (or should!) buy a camera
because it is the best preforming 1.5mp CMOS P&S -- that also
offers RAW output?
Whoa, where did that topic come from? Whom are you addressing with
that?
Sandy was asking about CMOS, but I never understood why.
As long as you got my attention, though, let me point out once
again how silly it is to call the x530 a 1.5 MP camera. It has
three times as much of everything relevant as a 1.5 MP camera has,
except for bytes required in an uncompressed TIFF representation
for native size image, where it has as few as a 1.5 MP camera, and
that's a GOOD thing.
Let's not get sloppy here. It has 2X the green pixels and 4X and R and B pixels of a 1.5MP Bayer.

--
Ron Parr
FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
I'm not much into p contests - I too call it as I see it. The Sigma
SD10 is a very fine instrument - far from perfect but very fine and
produces stellar output. It is also three years old and the rest of
the world ....
You hurt your "argument" when you can't even get basic facts
straight. DPReview shows that that SD10 was announced in October
of 2003. So its been a year and a half since its announcement.
You must have been thinking of the first Foveon based SLR, the SD9
that was announced a little over three years ago. Maybe this is
why you misused the term "beta".

Its a bit humorous to see someone complaining about lack of
objectivity when their view is so obviously skewed.
I quite agree.

From an objectve viewpoint, I see so little difference between an SD9 and SD10 that I frequently lump them together.

I see SD10 as, basically, a minor bug fix edition of SD9. Sigma did away with the two battery system, and updated the autofocus firmware. Foveon added microlenses to the sensor (like all competing cameras had) but didn't change the silicon.

That's basically what Nikon does in an "s" suffix version of a camera, D70s added a new battery, 8008 s had a new AF motor and firmware.

p.s. there's also the part I love about SD10, Sigma moved the IR blocking filter from sensor to dust protector. But I don't believe they did that as a "gift" to all the folks who wanted to shoot IR with it...

--

Salvage troll posts! When you see a thread started by a troll, post something useful to it. It will drive the trolls up the wall. ;)

Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
Do you think anyone, in 2005, would (or should!) buy a camera
because it is the best preforming 1.5mp CMOS P&S -- that also
offers RAW output?
Whoa, where did that topic come from? Whom are you addressing with
that?
Sandy was asking about CMOS, but I never understood why.
And we answered her question. What is garvic going on about?
As long as you got my attention, though, let me point out once
again how silly it is to call the x530 a 1.5 MP camera. It has
three times as much of everything relevant as a 1.5 MP camera has,
except for bytes required in an uncompressed TIFF representation
for native size image, where it has as few as a 1.5 MP camera, and
that's a GOOD thing.
Let's not get sloppy here. It has 2X the green pixels and 4X and R
and B pixels of a 1.5MP Bayer.
Precisely right. My "three times as much of everything relevant" may have been oversimplified, or maybe was just simplified because the total of the red, green, and blue is all that's relevant to the pixel count.

j
 
...if you need to make your case, by (relative to CMOS) arguments
-- you are a truly lost soul: And I think A.Adams (rest his soul)
-- would agree with me.
Sandy asked a simple question, we provided answers with good specificity to the question. I don't recall any case to be made, nor arguments.

If Ansel Adams agrees that I'm a lost soul, then maybe you guys do have some extra sense that I'm unaware of.

Can you say what is the connection between your remarks and the Q&A we were in? Or are you just looking for a chance to annoy just looking?

j
 
From an objectve viewpoint, I see so little difference between an
SD9 and SD10 that I frequently lump them together.

I see SD10 as, basically, a minor bug fix edition of SD9. Sigma did
away with the two battery system, and updated the autofocus
firmware. Foveon added microlenses to the sensor (like all
competing cameras had) but didn't change the silicon.
So you would say the SD9 is the "beta" for SD10? That view is somewhat more plausible.

As to whether the sensor changed at all, how do you explain the obviously much greater dynamic range if the sensor only changed by the addition of microlenses?
p.s. there's also the part I love about SD10, Sigma moved the IR
blocking filter from sensor to dust protector. But I don't believe
they did that as a "gift" to all the folks who wanted to shoot IR
with it...
Perhaps not, but it sure is a cool gift. And the colors come out better, too. Do you have any theory as to why this change, which seems to have also required that the flash be updated to have a shorter wavelength assist lamp?

j
 
From an objectve viewpoint, I see so little difference between an
SD9 and SD10 that I frequently lump them together.
There was not a real hardware update, just some tweaking that made the SD10 a better camera in several ways.

The real difference was the SD10 included the release of a real SPP update. The light fill (and negative light fill) made this raw converter a real jewel. The fact that is worked on the SD9 instantly made the SD9 a much better camera.

There is a much greater difference between a SD10 with new SPP, and an SD9 with the old SPP. What sold me on the SD10 was downloading raw files and playing with them in SPP. It was obviously much better than what I was able to do with the old SPP and raw files.
 
Laurence - you re-affirm my faith in intelligence. Thank you for allowing that great generosity of spirit you have always shown to "calm the turbulent storm". I for one really wish foveon well and hope they can push the envelope of quality for all of us. Make no mistake, even Bayer users with eyes can see the potential with this technology. Get Sigma to produce an SD12 with optional mounts (like their lenses) and I believe there would be an astounding market potential for them - even at the cost of a very few lens sales. People like myself (amateurs with an long term investment in other lenses) will not easily make the move of faith to this technology if it means surrendering carefully chosen glass that we know and love.

My apologies for dropping in and harassing - this Polaroid comedy of errors seems to be a very sore subject for you foveonites and really should not divert any of you from the admirable work you have been doing.
--
D70, 5700, 995
patrickh
 
spm - my apologies ( real and humble) for any offense I may have caused. I truly admire the work you core foveonites have done over the years and I was upset to see a real "circling the wagons" defensiveness over something as OT as a polaroid camera. Please accept my apologies.
--
D70, 5700, 995
patrickh
 
Good morning, Sorry for the delay in my response, out yesterday on a much appreciated CA coastal photo safari learning more about my Sigma SD10. Self-assigned homework assignment: learn to understand manual mode and study histograms....

The technologists and engineers amongst us especially (and interested laypersons and photographers I'm NOT an engineer) will understand the significance of my question and of Ron Parr's and Just Looking's replies. Re-read them please. True, the point-and-shoot photographers don't know (and probably could care less) about CCD vs CMOS, but CMOS/silicon is the future. CCD's are the present and past, "mature" technologies dominated by Sony etc of Charge Coupled Devices. Anyone who doesn't understand technology innovation should read Clay Christensen's books as well as the book link I've provided in my pBase gallery, click the PMA gallery for links.
Best regards, Sandy
[email protected]
http://www.pbase.com/sandyfleischman
 
Good morning, Sorry if I jump in here and slightly change the topic, but here is something which has mystified me, and you expressed it here:
People like myself (amateurs with an long term investment in other > lenses) will not easily make the move of faith to this technology if it > means surrendering carefully chosen glass that we know and love.
Why do many non-Sigma SD9/10 users perceive camera gear as an either/or situation? To learn more about the camera, why not buy a SD10 with a 50mm EX lens. Use it, use SPP, you'll understand what we SD9/10 users know and appreciate. You don't have to surrender you other systems. You only have one camera? Why not more than one for various situations?

Yesterday I shot Sigma SD10 and film Sigma SLR side-by-side; my photo trek leader didn't want to try film, but I'll send her some prints. LOL. I really appreciate having two different bodies and lens ranges at hand instantly. I kept the 28-70mm EX DG on the SA7 when not on SD10. Shot mostly 50mm EX, or 105mm EX on SD10 when not the 28-70mm EX DG.

Bottom line: I think the Sigma user forum readers appreciate input and critiques from users of the SD9/10; what tends to drive us wild is Sigma forum posters who opinine vigorously on the SD9/10 and Foveon-imager chip camera based on rumor, hearsay, or any other motives.
Summation: Buy a SD9/10 and go out there and take photos!
Best regards, Sandy
[email protected]
http://www.pbase.com/sandyfleischman
 
spm - my apologies ( real and humble) for any offense I may have
No problem Patrickh, what I don't want is the mis-perception and mis-understanding.
caused. I truly admire the work you core foveonites have done over
the years and I was upset to see a real "circling the wagons"
defensiveness over something as OT as a polaroid camera. Please
accept my apologies.
I think there are just too many of these OT lately from people who just want to spend their coffee break times bashing anything foveon and this thread especially, is pure malicous put down...you use d70 and you must know what is like to be attack by the users of a certain popular brand, just because it is not their brand...we, in this forum are generally not as impatient or prickly (as one of the other brand user said behind our back), the fact is the opposite...trolls life expectancy in this forum last much longer than others...just ask the former trolls like garvic7.
--
D70, 5700, 995
patrickh
 
I expect that this will eventually change
That's the key. Who will change it? CCD manufacturers? Not so
likely. See my PMA report in my PMA gallery for more as to the
basis of my interest.
Yes - probably CCD manufacturers will play a big role in changing this. Sony has been investing heavily in CMOS sensors for a while now in support of the cell phone market.

Kodak also has been investing in CMOS sensors.

My understanding is that Omnivision is one of the big players in the low cost CMOS sensor business right now. Micron has also been making some noise (pardon the pun) with a line that they claim has dark current as low as CCDs.

There are many small players in the CMOS market. It remains to be seen if they will be become big players before formerly sleeping giants such as Sony crush them or gobble them up.

I imagine that these are interesting times in the sensor business.

--
Ron Parr
FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
Laurence’s apology speaks for itself. Yes, he can get downright grumpy at times, and not all of his humor works, but he does provide us with a great deal of common sense and insight.

He is also, as he states, somewhat tired of having to repeat himself again and again as the same old, same old, occurs. I wish we had a place where, instead of having to redebate these issues over and over again, we could just send people to get the basics of the issues, so we did not have to reinvent the wheel week after week. Then we might be able to advance what could be very interesting and productive debates (which do sometimes get started, only to be side-tracked.)

Secondly, people have asked why Laurence, Just Looking and others engage in these repetitive debates. They do so because it is very easy for people to forge deep beliefs before there is enough evidence to do so. We saw this happen with the Sigma SD9. There are still people that believe the camera is incapable of X (fill in the blank) and such pre-judgment persists long after it is demonstrated the SD9 can do X (or a firmware/software upgrade has corrected the problem). Indeed, many people still do not seem to understand how significantly the SD10 is over the SD9 (still a fine camera, especially with the upgrades). Thus it is important to counter such jumping to conclusions until sufficient evidence is in. If not we run the risk of having the baby crippled or killed in its crib.

The same pattern seems to be repeating itself. In this case WWL/Polaroid still does not have the X530 camera to market. We have seen a few images, far too few to see anything but hints at what it can do (or how serious the problems are that are showing up in the flawed images), and it is unclear how close to a production camera was used to make them. I have no idea just how good the X530 can become with this first generation Foveon sensor, though what I see its big sister, the Sigma SD9 doing, I think it far too early to write it off.

Pete
 

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