2 GB RAM much better than 1 GB?

That's interesting. I actually don't have Photoshop yet. I'm waiting till April for the next version to come out. I do have Photoshop Elements and it won't even start unless I have a Windows paging file set up. I have 4GB of RAM. When I say it won't even start I mean it posts a message saying it wants one!

I heard Photoshop was the same way.
... and even complains if it is on same page as the paging file.
Recently I lost the drive where I had my paging file. Not thinking
about it when I removed the drive I actually ran without a paging
file (windows defaulted to no paging file) and I only have 768m of
memory. I really didn't see any problem.

Jim
 
Thanks for the info, but I have no interest in RAID, and I don't think this addresses the RAM issue. If you get a virus wtih RAID, then your system is cooked.

--
Reid

Kodak Brownie
Argus 126
Quaker Oats Container Pinhole Camera
 
Kevin

Yes identical hard disks for RAID are preferable. I have 2x identitical Maxtor 160Gb drives. Some RAID systems will allow different size drives some will not, you would need to check the RAID controller specifications very carefully to be sure. In my case the price of the drive had dropped to around £55 so a second disk exactly the same make/model/size as my existing drive was a no-brainer.

RAID 1 (mirror) is said to give some read performance improvement but to be honest I havent noticed it. In the future I plan to upgrade the hard disk sub system further, but need to read up to see whats possible I would like to run 2 Arrays 1x strip for OS + applications and 1 mirror for data but I am not sure if this is possible yet.

For the record, Yes I do agree that more RAm is always a smart move and I too plan to upgrade from the current 1Gb I have installed, will probably go out to 2Gb (I could go to 3Gb) but beyond this would probably be pointless as by then a new system will probably be a better route. By then we will all probably be into 64bit computing anyway! Or should I just wait for a dual 128bit CPU with 10Tb of RAM!!! :-)
I eventually--hopefully sooner than later--plan to get a second HD
and set-up RAID1. Is it usually best to get identical brand &
capacity HDs for a RAID array?

Thanks for the help :)
--
Kevin

*********************************************************
Olympus C-5050Z
Manfrotto 3001BPro tripod & 488RC0 ballhead
 
Thanks for the info, but I have no interest in RAID, and I don't
think this addresses the RAM issue. If you get a virus wtih RAID,
then your system is cooked.
Not more so than when you have a virus on any other system. But if one of the disks in your RAID0 fails, you are.

The issue does indirectly address the RAM issue. For PS it isn't enough to feed it lots of RAM, give a fast swap disk as well. Can't be faster than Raid0 ;-)
--
Reid

Kodak Brownie
Argus 126
Quaker Oats Container Pinhole Camera
 
With > 512Mb RAm there are said to be some gians to be had by setting the pagefile (swap disk) to a fixed size. Not sure if this is true byt I have mine set to 1024Mb - same as the physical RAM I have.

Also - some have suggested that having the PS scratch disk set to a different drive is better. This is probably true but I suspect it needs to be a different physical disk, not a partition on the same disk. If its the same disk the data still has to go down the same IDE channel and through the same disk system, I dont see any room for faster data transfer in this scenario. Just a theory..............
... I hope you have considered turning off Windows Paging.

Jim

My Gallery:
http://www.jpmphotos.com
 
The issue does indirectly address the RAM issue. For PS it isn't
enough to feed it lots of RAM, give a fast swap disk as well. Can't
be faster than Raid0 ;-)
Sure if you are one of those who will pull out your hair, poke your eyes out or cut off your head because the computer does a photoshop task 1 second slower. Come on how much speed is really needed? Is great lenghts needed for a few meaningless seconds? The Jones are not going to burn down your house if you can't keep up with them.

--
Shawn Grant
 
Thanks, but absolutley nothing you just said has anything to do with what I said. Did you mean to post this for someone else here?

We were discussing the fact that Adobe gives an initial message at run-time saying that it demands that Windows have a page file (if the page file has been turned off.) With 4GB of RAM it actually would be nice if I could leave the Windows page file OFF. I've done that and it is great. The problem like I said is that Adobe wants it to be there whether Windows needs it or not.

Now about your comment:

Yes. It is better if the Windows page file is set to the same minimum and maximum size (fixed). This way a fixed area of the hard disk is always used for that purpose instead of an ever changing area that is then wasting time during disk defrgmenting, writing other files adjacent to the pagefile, fragmenting the page file into multiple areas of the HD platter, etc...
Also - some have suggested that having the PS scratch disk set to a
different drive is better. This is probably true but I suspect it
needs to be a different physical disk, not a partition on the same
disk. If its the same disk the data still has to go down the same
IDE channel and through the same disk system, I dont see any room
for faster data transfer in this scenario. Just a
theory..............
... I hope you have considered turning off Windows Paging.

Jim

My Gallery:
http://www.jpmphotos.com
 
Happy- Thanks for the reply.

I also have a Maxtor 160GB drive (that came installed with my Dell). So if I decide to have a RAID1 array in the future, I'll just get the Maxtor a twin brother.

Do you know a good source for more info and recommended set-ups for virtual memory, swap files, scratch disks, partitioning drives, etc, and/or would you mind explaining it a bit to me?

Thanks again for the help :)
--
Kevin

*********************************************************
Olympus C-5050Z
Manfrotto 3001BPro tripod & 488RC0 ballhead
 
Here you go: (download the Acrobat PDF file on the right side of the page.)

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/digitalphotography/expert/optimizedsystem.mspx
Happy- Thanks for the reply.

I also have a Maxtor 160GB drive (that came installed with my
Dell). So if I decide to have a RAID1 array in the future, I'll
just get the Maxtor a twin brother.

Do you know a good source for more info and recommended set-ups for
virtual memory, swap files, scratch disks, partitioning drives,
etc, and/or would you mind explaining it a bit to me?

Thanks again for the help :)
--
Kevin

*********************************************************
Olympus C-5050Z
Manfrotto 3001BPro tripod & 488RC0 ballhead
 
As the other poster said you cant have too much RAM.

It is also usually a good idea to reserve at least 256MB of Swap Space on the system drive. Windows prefers this to handle unexpected problems such as a stop error where a memory dump file is created etc.. Also, you never know when Windows could suddenly need to do some swapping. Think of it as a small memory safety net. I have ran into at least one situation where I had used so much memory that PS would not let me save a document that needed saving. I was not able to free enough memory by closing other apps to fix this issue. So I was stuck with no way to save my work because of lack of swap space and memory.

Say you have a large file open in PS with a few snapshots, 10 or 20 history levels and 5 layers ... This is going to eat up a lot of memory. Now allocate what windows needs and anything that is running at all on the machine and you can eat 2 gig pretty quick. I'd take 10 gig if it could be addressed by the OS btw as it is by far the fastest way to store & retrieve temporary information.

On the other hand you may ask yourself how much will 2GB cost you vs. the length of time you will use a compatible Mobo/CPU for that memory. I have held off at times because I new the price of the memory was too much knowing the CPU I had would be obsolete to me soon. This mean my fairly new 2GB cannot be used with the new upgrade etc...

Best regards

Karbo
 
Hi,

I had 512MB and updated to 1.5GB a couple of weeks ago. What a difference - it´s like a new computer. I have a XP2000 which is 3 years old now. Even though it has a RAID0 the difference between HD-caching and real RAM is dramatic.

Just look at the Taskmanager and open PS CS, Nikon Capture and other programs and try to handle big images. I got memory usage up to 1.2GB.

--
Joachim
http://www.joachimgerstl.com
 
(SNIP)

I had 512MB and updated to 1.5GB a couple of weeks ago. What a
difference - it´s like a new computer. I have a XP2000 (SNIP)
Get a used 2100+ Tbred B core, & overclock it. Those 2100+ really have some incredible OC potential. See if you can get a AIUHB version

Mine is overclocked to 2.2 Ghz with 1.75vcore & just a large Zalmann Heatsink & fan (no watercooling or vapochill). Incredibly stable & fast.
 
I am planning on upgrading to 1.5Gb, so it's good to hear that the difference is dramatic. Thanks :)

--
Kevin

*********************************************************
Olympus C-5050Z
Manfrotto 3001BPro tripod & 488RC0 ballhead
 
The issue does indirectly address the RAM issue. For PS it isn't
enough to feed it lots of RAM, give a fast swap disk as well. Can't
be faster than Raid0 ;-)
Sure if you are one of those who will pull out your hair, poke your
eyes out or cut off your head because the computer does a photoshop
task 1 second slower. Come on how much speed is really needed? Is
great lenghts needed for a few meaningless seconds? The Jones are
not going to burn down your house if you can't keep up with them.

--
Shawn Grant
I take it you don't like stripe sets then? I don't use Photoshop, but I do use a stripe set and when I capture video it makes more than the 1 sec diff. It is pretty easy to capture say 15 mins of video, but when I capture over 2 hours of video, I want it lip sync and without having to reconfigure my machine to pull it off. Capture to a Raid0 and I can, capture to my single disk, I can't, not realiably.

Any program that moves a lot of data onto or from disk will notice a better performance. I notice my RAID0 array quite a lot, I guess that when you edit large file in PS the effect is similar. But you're not going to notice any speed improvement sharpening those webcam images ;-) Seeing as the original questions was about RAM, I guess we're not dealing with those here.....

And of course if you never fill up your RAM it isn't going to help either, but that doesn't mean it has no place. Gross simplification aside.
 
Some of the article was quite good but other bits I believe are a a bit weak.

1) The article pushes XP over W2K because of organisational features but I would say most photographers will want better organisational programs so this benefit is useless. I believe you may prefer using XP and some drivers for stuff like SATA disk drives may be bettter supported in WXP however W2K runs adequately in less RAM than WXP.

2) Video Ram I don't believe there is any truth in more VRAM beyond the amount needed for your display(s) unless you are doing 3-d rendering which few photographers will get involved in unless they are playing games in their spare time. 16MB per display is probably perfectly good for all but multiple displays. For each screen multiply the resolution x and y * 3 and sum up the results - make sure you have more than this amount.

3) Disks and Raid.

I have tried raid-0 and found that sequential reads (avoid filling the disk up and defrag once in a while) gained very little from RAID on a fast modern IDE disk as they performed close to PCI saturation point. However writing to disk particularly uncompressed data (TIFF) gained lots. However if the amount being written could be accomodated in free RAM (ie cached) there was no gain.

I found much better gains for photo- editting by using multiple disks for different tasks. In particularly partitiion the front few GB (the fastest part of your fastest disk) and only use it for PS cache disk. This disk partitiion should maintain very fast sequential access at all times as it should always be empty when you are not using PS. Whilst working on your images do not store your images anywhere on the PS cache disk.

If you are using very large TIFF files (usually scanned medium format) or Video-editing then RAID-0 does still give a large write benefit otherwise splitting their usage is of more benefit.

Bizarrely in the article even the "cutting edge" setup suggested only has the single raid-0 array.

4) Memory. The suggested 4GB is of little use if photoshop can only use 2GB - although I understand PSCS2 can use more. I suggest you allow 256MB for WXP (128MB W2K)+ 128MB for PS + at least 3x and preferably 5-6x your largest normal multi-layered image. 1 layer of 6Mp 16 bit data = 36MB. Look at the size of uncompressed multi-layer images and multiply by 5-6x for comfort. Many will find 1GB is enough. If in doubt enable PS status bar and watch the progress bar if you notice it often dramatically slows and your disk light comes on you need more RAM.

5) If your a little short of memory and a little brave first try to optimise your windows setup.

a) Get rid of all unnecessary services see http://www.blackviper.com/WinXP/servicecfg.htm or http://www.blackviper.com/WIN2K/servicecfg.htm as appropriate.

b) Disable all those annoying windows resident tasks (real player,quicktime,mouse configuration,office tool bar,windows indexing services,graphics card helpers...) - most of these are rarely used and can be accessed by other means when required. "Codestuff starter" is a particularly useful tool for test removal (permanent or temporary) of these. http://www.answersthatwork.com have a list of tasks and whether you can or in some cases should stop them or not.

6) CPU wise I believe PS is slightly better optimised for Intel P4 but there's not a lot in it - I have an Athlon as it was much cheaper and works well. Be particularly wary of Celeron - I have not used a very modern one but everything from about 800MHz-1.7GHz were badly crippled by poor on-board cache performance.

I understand that if you're running intensive jobs such as big batch jobs and simultaneously checking your mail that hyper-threading will help.

Steve
 
I found much better gains for photo- editting by using multiple disks for different tasks. In particularly partitiion the front few GB (the fastest part of your fastest disk) and only use it for PS cache disk. This disk partitiion should maintain very fast sequential access at all times as it should always be empty when you are not using PS. Whilst working on your images do not store your images anywhere on the PS cache disk.
I only have one drive at the moment--I plan to upgrade to 2 in the near-future. Would I gain any speed by partioning my only drive, or would I only notice improvements if I had 2 drives or more? And when I eventually get a second drive (primarily for backing-up my images), would you recommend I set up a RAID1 array, or should I leave them as seperate drives, and do what you mentioned? Could I use that set-up with a RAID1 array, or would that not be possible?

Obviously, I'm still trying to get a firm grasp on all this stuff, so any help you could give me would be greatly appreciated. Any online resources you know of would also be helpful.

Thanks a lot :)
--
Kevin

*********************************************************
Olympus C-5050Z
Manfrotto 3001BPro tripod & 488RC0 ballhead
 
4) Memory should have read.

... I suggest you allow 256MB for WXP (128MB W2K)+ 128MB for PS + at least 3x and preferably 5-6x your largest normal SINGLE layered image. 1 layer of 6Mp 16 bit data = 36MB. Look at the size of uncompressed multi-layer images and multiply by 5-6x for comfort. Many will find 1GB is enough. If in doubt enable PS status bar and watch the progress bar if you notice it often dramatically slows and your disk light comes on you need more RAM

If you routinely use many layers (3-4+) frequently you will need to allow for more memory for extra layers.
 

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