Photoshop

Jason says he likes
total control! If you have total control over taking images, then
why do you need PS?
Carl,

Photography is a three (3) stage process:

1. "Taking" or exposing light onto an imager be it film or CCD/CMOS with a camera.

2. Processing that exposure whether in chemiicals or in bits and bytes.

3. Generating a print; again either with an enlarger or inkjet/lightjet.

Most color film photographers only ever participate in the first stage of image production. After they (you and your buddy Michael) have pushed the button on the camera their part is done. The truth is that is the easiest part of the photographic process. Developing the image and producing a quality print requires skill and patience. Ansel Adams is famous because he controlled all three parts of this process to perfection. In the world of color photography you'd have to look at someone like Eliot Porter for the same level of control and quality.

Most color film photogrpahers though simply have no idea what it takes to produce good prints. They simply go to their trusty lab and hand the real work off to someone else. For many that is fine, but I was never comfortable putting my name on something that was mostly someone else's work. So, I took control over the entire process. With current technology the most effective means for that control lies within a program called Photoshop.

This endeth the lesson...

Jason
 
use something that will work for you like Microsoft's Digital Image Pro with all it's preset fancy features, they just do their thing and take no input from you what so ever. Works great for my Dad and his point and shoot style...

Personally I would lost without Photoshop and it is a tool that has helped me make enough money to pay for it several times over and over and over...

If you just get past the initial learning curve things start to fall in place. I have been using it for 9 years and I can comfortably say that I still only know 80% of it. The other 20% I simply don't use.

btw, it's software not "softwear" ; )
Who designed this thing, a blind monkey on LSD, and they have the
nerve to charge almost 800 U.S. for it ! I vote it as the "worlds
most user unfriendly softwear" Elements 3 is better because it
promts you to certain functions. Want to become the next Bill
Gates ? Design a photo edit platform that you don't need 2
lifetimes to master.
 
Photography is a three (3) stage process:

1. "Taking" or exposing light onto an imager be it film or CCD/CMOS
with a camera.

2. Processing that exposure whether in chemiicals or in bits and
bytes.

3. Generating a print; again either with an enlarger or
inkjet/lightjet.

Most color film photographers only ever participate in the first
stage of image production. After they (you and your buddy Michael)
have pushed the button on the camera their part is done. The truth
is that is the easiest part of the photographic process.
Developing the image and producing a quality print requires skill
and patience. Ansel Adams is famous because he controlled all
three parts of this process to perfection. In the world of color
photography you'd have to look at someone like Eliot Porter for the
same level of control and quality.

Most color film photogrpahers though simply have no idea what it
takes to produce good prints.
That comment is going to make lots of pro's rejoice! I'm guessing you are a youngster who's read a few books on photography and want others to think you are on the ball with modern technology. WELL you've failed.
They simply go to their trusty lab
and hand the real work off to someone else. For many that is fine,
but I was never comfortable putting my name on something that was
mostly someone else's work. So, I took control over the entire
process. With current technology the most effective means for that
control lies within a program called Photoshop.

This endeth the 2nd lesson...

Jason
 
Micheal, if you look at the names when you start up Photoshop, you will see exactly who designed it. I'm afraid if looking at your screen is difficult enough for you that you need to post on a forum to ask who designed the program, then life itself is user unfriendly and you should complian to god for designing you.

John Knoll is a freakin' genious, and Photoshop is a great piece of software and very user friendly. Photoshop has greatly evolved since version 1, and more features are added with each release. Personally, I started with version 2 (when I was 11). I found it very easy to use, and with lots of room to grow and lots to learn. I met a photographer lady who went on and on about how she was going to take a photo into Photoshop and make it sepia tinted. She was boasting about herself and how difficult it was and how cutting edge she was. I told her Photoshop is very easy to use. She became furious, explaining it was not easy to use and she had spent thousands of dollars learning how to use it. No, it's easy.

I've never owned Photoshop. I've never even seen a Photoshop manual. It's so user friendly, it needs no manual. Anyone who spends money on classes, actions, uses a tutorial let alone needs a manual is a moron.

Photoshop is more user friendly now then it ever has been. Almost feels like a cheap toy (like the Filter Gallery in CS).

Photoshop 2 had no layers. Yup. No layers. And I was REALLY into compositing then (when I was 11/12). I put my friends heads on dollar bills and what not, created dramatic sunsets (painted in photoshop, not photo's) with 100's of layered elements. Back then, if you wanted to composite, you created two files. Then you cut and paste between those files. You saved countless versions of a single file. As the Saturday Night Live skit goes, "And we liked it!".

But seriously, with the current Photoshop, you can create as many layers as you need in a single file. You can create adjustment layers (you could not imagine what a time saver that is. Oh my god). Oh yeah, and how about History! How freakin' great is that? You can do several things, working on some random tangent, and then say, "nah, I'll just step back till where I cropped it". Blink. There you are.

Alright, last issues, price. $800 (it doesn't cost that much, it's $649) is a fair price. If you run a photography business and use photoshop for every image you make and sell, it's a true bargain! A single current DSLR without a lens is more than Photoshop. Also, Photoshop is intended for the pro market. If you think it's expensive (and especially if you think Photoshop Elements is better) DON'T BUY IT! You DO NOT need to buy to try it. Photoshop is freely available as a tryout on Adobe.com.

Personally, I like a minimalist approach to Photoshop now. I use it for photo's, and don't do much without an equivalent in a darkroom. When I was a pre-teen, I'd go crazy with effects, composites, etc. Now, I just make some color adjustment, a little burning or dodging if need be, and that's about it. When I started, I was using it on a 66mhz computer with 24MB of ram (that was actually a lot of ram then). Later, I worked at a digital prepress shop in Junior High (which had the fastest machines available then..80Mhz). We printed lots of posters for tradeshows among other things. For some effects or adjustments, we would have to wait nearly an hour for photoshop to finish. Back then, you tested out idea's on low res versions, and when you figured out what you needed, then applied that to the full res file. A lot of those files were (in todays terms) 50MP's.

Today, I use PS on a laptop (Apples cheapest), with a 1.2GHZ G4, and 768MB of ram, and flies through Photoshop. And this is no speed champ in the computing world! Pro's use Dual 2.5GHZ G5's with up to 8GB's of RAM. But, I'm only working with 12MP files. There's nearly no waiting for anything I do. I can just delve into a file, layer after layer, rotate, blah blah blah, and it's done. Unbelievable. I mean, truly amazing. Not to mention I can put all this power in a friggen paperbag and walk to an f'ing park and edit some photos.

Clearly with all the power, simplicity, and affordability of cutting edge media creation today, it clearly separates the pros from the amateurs. If you think PS is expensive, hard to use, or that computers are too slow to handle your $850 digital SLR's 8MP file, then great. Stop using any of it, and go back to watching TV instead.

Also, this is a "pro" forum, and not the place for this type of thread. Try image retouching. I am not a pro, but couldn't help but share my views (as I have done in the past) on Photoshop and idiots.

-¥akuza
Who designed this thing, a blind monkey on LSD, and they have the
nerve to charge almost 800 U.S. for it ! I vote it as the "worlds
most user unfriendly softwear" Elements 3 is better because it
promts you to certain functions. Want to become the next Bill
Gates ? Design a photo edit platform that you don't need 2
lifetimes to master.
 
Michael, you really need to accept and join the world of technology that we are all in, instead of sticking your head in the sand (or elsewhere) like an ostrich.

With your outlook, thankfully you are not in the medical field, or we would all still be victims of polio, and dying before we reach our thirties.

The diseases that medical science has found cures for, or wiped out altogether, have been conquered by using the tools of technology that were available at the time, and by developing new ones, no matter how hard they were to learn to use.

If mankind adopted your way of thinking, we would all still be walking on all fours. Civilization would never advance, because "its just too hard".
 
You mean Thomas Knoll..... but...

It was a young Thomas Knoll that walked into a print shop with
a very crude software he had developed and wanted to know if if
had any commercial applications. He asked the printer if he might
be able to use it in the shop since it could work with images.

That printer was Carl Volk. Carl seeing a good thing pointed Thomas
to Adobe and the rest is history.

http://www.carlvolk.com/index.asp is some info on Carl. He was
a very generous man with a love of art, music and photography. Although
Thomas Knoll can take all the credit for the joy we have now as well
as all the art as well as income produced from PS, it was a very important
master along the path that gave encouragement and direction to the process.

That person was Carl.
 
field of technology state that the MAJOR problem holding back the
wide adoption of computers and softwear is user unfriendlyness of
everything digital.
What you are describing has nothing to do with "everything digital". It is actually related to poor HCI (human computer interaction). HCI is a field of Cognitive Science & Computer Science. (This is not equivalent to a "nice GUI".)

HCI practitioners prefer to talk about and measure "usability", rather than "user friendliness".

A program with good usability and adherence to HCI principles is easier to learn (less steep learning curve) than one with poor usability.

There are a number of measurable factors determining how usable an interface is. (I will not detail them here.)

Unfortunately many software companies do not evaluate or design their software entirely with usability in mind. Many have GUI developers and designers but no HCI/usability experts.

Because of this, some users may encounter "quirks" in an interface that appear to them to defy all logic (you may be able to think of a few examples from the applications you use). Other users are more accepting and just learn the interface without questioning whether things could be done more efficiently.

Furthermore, Photoshop is a mature product with many existing users and any changes to the interface would probably be unpopular with existing users (and be seen as an "upheaval") and they might have to relearn the interface for too many tasks, so such changes are more likely to be successful if gradually introduced.

Personally I did find some tasks in Photoshop to be un-intuitive, I simply used the help files or web tutorials.

I don't think it helps much that any time someone complains about an interface they are seen as a troll or incompetent by many that know nothing about HCI, or have already blindly accepted the quirks in an application, or who are fiercely defending their expensive purchase.
....Design a photo edit platform that you don't need 2 lifetimes to master.
Perhaps this would be more suitable....

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00002S9P7
 
Actually, Photoshop was originally developed by Thomas and John Knoll. John Knoll works at ILM, and has done a lot in the effects/graphics world as well as develop photoshop. I should have wrote Thomas Knoll (but I'm more impressed with John Knoll), so I often say John instead of Thomas. Sorry about that, I should have written Thomas Knoll.

-¥akuza
You mean Thomas Knoll..... but...

It was a young Thomas Knoll that walked into a print shop with
a very crude software he had developed and wanted to know if if
had any commercial applications. He asked the printer if he might
be able to use it in the shop since it could work with images.

That printer was Carl Volk. Carl seeing a good thing pointed Thomas
to Adobe and the rest is history.

http://www.carlvolk.com/index.asp is some info on Carl. He was
a very generous man with a love of art, music and photography.
Although
Thomas Knoll can take all the credit for the joy we have now as well
as all the art as well as income produced from PS, it was a very
important
master along the path that gave encouragement and direction to the
process.

That person was Carl.
 
Hey Mike, you're getting hammered... but I'll stand by you. I've been a die-hard PSP user for years, but this winter decided to see what all the fuss was about. Honestly, I was extremely underwhelmed, and not just in it's interface, but it's functionality. It is without a doubt the most overpriced software I've ever used.

It is extremely inflexible and really provides almost nothing over other much cheaper software packages. What really kills me is how many people buy it and C1 AND 3rd party plug-ins! Really, about all PSCS is for most users is an Action platform for 3rd party products. If PSCS was so good, why do so many need 3rd party actions to simplify the routines???

Anyway, flamesuit on... no, off, I can take the heat. :-)

Jim
Who designed this thing, a blind monkey on LSD, and they have the
nerve to charge almost 800 U.S. for it ! I vote it as the "worlds
most user unfriendly softwear" Elements 3 is better because it
promts you to certain functions. Want to become the next Bill
Gates ? Design a photo edit platform that you don't need 2
lifetimes to master.
--
Jim Fuglestad
http://www.fuglestadphotography.com
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/366
  • You're not in third grade anymore. Take as many recesses as you want!
  • Why simply live and let live? Live and help live.
 
Most color film photogrpahers though simply have no idea what it
takes to produce good prints.
That comment is going to make lots of pro's rejoice! I'm guessing
you are a youngster who's read a few books on photography and want
others to think you are on the ball with modern technology. WELL
you've failed.
Carl,

At what exactly have I failed?

You seem to have missed my point (or avoided it altogether). Color film photogrpahers typically do only 1/3rd of the work required to make a quality print. With digital technology it is easier and more efficient and more responsible to do all of the work for yourself.

I am not a newbie or a youngster. I have read a few books and I am not ashamed of being literate. However, I have 18 years of experience as well. I sold my first print in 1987 when I was 21. That experience has taught me to keep up with the market and technology.

If you would like to further discuss the issue at hand rather than make comments about my age (39) or literacy, I'd be happy to hear what you have to say.

Jason
 
PSP9 is good, but what is solution for me when I require the ADOBE 1988 color space. PSP is a bit simplistic when it comes to color management, and that's a real problem for me.

Cheers
rich
It is extremely inflexible and really provides almost nothing over
other much cheaper software packages. What really kills me is how
many people buy it and C1 AND 3rd party plug-ins! Really, about
all PSCS is for most users is an Action platform for 3rd party
products. If PSCS was so good, why do so many need 3rd party
actions to simplify the routines???

Anyway, flamesuit on... no, off, I can take the heat. :-)

Jim
Who designed this thing, a blind monkey on LSD, and they have the
nerve to charge almost 800 U.S. for it ! I vote it as the "worlds
most user unfriendly softwear" Elements 3 is better because it
promts you to certain functions. Want to become the next Bill
Gates ? Design a photo edit platform that you don't need 2
lifetimes to master.
--
Jim Fuglestad
http://www.fuglestadphotography.com
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/366
  • You're not in third grade anymore. Take as many recesses as you
want!
  • Why simply live and let live? Live and help live.
--
rich
http://www.photoallure.com

'I'm not such a bad guy
once you get to know me'
-Agent Smith
 
Honestly, I was extremely
underwhelmed, and not just in it's interface, but it's
functionality. It is without a doubt the most overpriced software
I've ever used.
If all you're going to do is poke and prod at a few images and print them on your Epson, then for all means stick with the cheaper program.

But PSCS's tools for color management, color matching, and prepress are simply unrivaled. Like a 1Ds, not everyone needs such a professional-grade tool. But when you do, there is no substitute.
 
Finely said my friend, finally someone with reason, who does not follow the herd, but takes the high road ! A rare man of most practicle application ! Not stuck in a rut, thinking they have discoverd the holy grail only because they know nothing else !
field of technology state that the MAJOR problem holding back the
wide adoption of computers and softwear is user unfriendlyness of
everything digital.
What you are describing has nothing to do with "everything
digital". It is actually related to poor HCI (human computer
interaction). HCI is a field of Cognitive Science & Computer
Science. (This is not equivalent to a "nice GUI".)

HCI practitioners prefer to talk about and measure "usability",
rather than "user friendliness".

A program with good usability and adherence to HCI principles is
easier to learn (less steep learning curve) than one with poor
usability.

There are a number of measurable factors determining how usable an
interface is. (I will not detail them here.)

Unfortunately many software companies do not evaluate or design
their software entirely with usability in mind. Many have GUI
developers and designers but no HCI/usability experts.

Because of this, some users may encounter "quirks" in an interface
that appear to them to defy all logic (you may be able to think of
a few examples from the applications you use). Other users are more
accepting and just learn the interface without questioning whether
things could be done more efficiently.

Furthermore, Photoshop is a mature product with many existing users
and any changes to the interface would probably be unpopular with
existing users (and be seen as an "upheaval") and they might have
to relearn the interface for too many tasks, so such changes are
more likely to be successful if gradually introduced.

Personally I did find some tasks in Photoshop to be un-intuitive, I
simply used the help files or web tutorials.

I don't think it helps much that any time someone complains about
an interface they are seen as a troll or incompetent by many that
know nothing about HCI, or have already blindly accepted the quirks
in an application, or who are fiercely defending their expensive
purchase.
....Design a photo edit platform that you don't need 2 lifetimes to master.
Perhaps this would be more suitable....

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00002S9P7
 
PSCS' color management is way overly complicated. I think that's why so many people struggle with their color management while I whistle along merrily along without all the problems. ;-)

No, really, I'm not saying either one of them are right for everybody, but I think PSCS gets way more credit than it deserves. I actually find it lacking in many more capabilities that I use than PSP does - and it's not even close to as customizeable to use. I'm not meaning complicated either, but rather it's ability to adapt to work how a user does. It is very very inflexible.

Me, I prefer to stay in my software as much as possible, so I appreciate te noise reduction and chromatic aberration adjustments available from within PSP vs. having to use a plug-in or additional software.

I personally don't get much out of adobe 1998... so many printers don't care, and there really isn't that much difference.

To each their own... but I do find it amusing when so many photographer's spend $800 on software and then use levels and curves and then swear it's better than everything else.

Jim

Jim
Cheers
rich
It is extremely inflexible and really provides almost nothing over
other much cheaper software packages. What really kills me is how
many people buy it and C1 AND 3rd party plug-ins! Really, about
all PSCS is for most users is an Action platform for 3rd party
products. If PSCS was so good, why do so many need 3rd party
actions to simplify the routines???

Anyway, flamesuit on... no, off, I can take the heat. :-)

Jim
Who designed this thing, a blind monkey on LSD, and they have the
nerve to charge almost 800 U.S. for it ! I vote it as the "worlds
most user unfriendly softwear" Elements 3 is better because it
promts you to certain functions. Want to become the next Bill
Gates ? Design a photo edit platform that you don't need 2
lifetimes to master.
--
Jim Fuglestad
http://www.fuglestadphotography.com
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/366
  • You're not in third grade anymore. Take as many recesses as you
want!
  • Why simply live and let live? Live and help live.
--
rich
http://www.photoallure.com

'I'm not such a bad guy
once you get to know me'
-Agent Smith
--
Jim Fuglestad
http://www.fuglestadphotography.com
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/366
  • You're not in third grade anymore. Take as many recesses as you want!
  • Why simply live and let live? Live and help live.
 
Honestly, I was extremely
underwhelmed, and not just in it's interface, but it's
functionality. It is without a doubt the most overpriced software
I've ever used.
If all you're going to do is poke and prod at a few images and
print them on your Epson, then for all means stick with the cheaper
program.

But PSCS's tools for color management, color matching, and prepress
are simply unrivaled. Like a 1Ds, not everyone needs such a
professional-grade tool. But when you do, there is no substitute.
--
Canon 1DsMII,Powerbook 17'---> Shooting RAW (Ofcourse)
 
Control Zits Blemishes, stray hair etc... You come close, But everything goes through photoshop sooner or later....
Snook
Jeez! You guys let this little twerp bait you. Everyone knows what
Photoshop can do. Nothing else compares. I'm not a pro but I'm a
rather serious editor of my photographs and I use Photoshop 6 &
Elements 3. Couldn't do without them.

Photodan
You are now showing your weekness, Dan says he couldn't do without
them,why not try harder when taking your shots. Jason says he likes
total control! If you have total control over taking images, then
why do you need PS
--
Canon 1DsMII,Powerbook 17'---> Shooting RAW (Ofcourse)
 
If all you're going to do is poke and prod at a few images and
print them on your Epson, then for all means stick with the cheaper
program.

But PSCS's tools for color management, color matching, and prepress
are simply unrivaled. Like a 1Ds, not everyone needs such a
professional-grade tool. But when you do, there is no substitute.
Unrivaled until PS9 then PS10 etc etc, thats the biggest problem of all with many of us. 1st we convince ourselves we cannot take a decent photograph without the latest camera, then we convince ourselves again that a good images cannot really be obtain from this wonderfull beast until we have the latest photographic software,and naturally when we've spent sooo many $$ we're certainly will not admit its not really necessary,are we?
Carl
 
It's me again..

Your points are good. I remember using nothing but PSP7 for a few years. I was happy.

PSP9 is a wonderful, powerful application. If only the color management was a bit more sophisticated.

Having said that PSCS is absolutely amazing, but for the price, it better be.

I can honestly say that after using PSCS and PSP9 that PSP9 easily has 95% of what CS has.

The other 5% is color management (a biggie) and a few less commonly used features (not a biggie)

Regards
No, really, I'm not saying either one of them are right for
everybody, but I think PSCS gets way more credit than it deserves.
I actually find it lacking in many more capabilities that I use
than PSP does - and it's not even close to as customizeable to use.
I'm not meaning complicated either, but rather it's ability to
adapt to work how a user does. It is very very inflexible.

Me, I prefer to stay in my software as much as possible, so I
appreciate te noise reduction and chromatic aberration adjustments
available from within PSP vs. having to use a plug-in or additional
software.

I personally don't get much out of adobe 1998... so many printers
don't care, and there really isn't that much difference.

To each their own... but I do find it amusing when so many
photographer's spend $800 on software and then use levels and
curves and then swear it's better than everything else.

Jim

Jim
Cheers
rich
It is extremely inflexible and really provides almost nothing over
other much cheaper software packages. What really kills me is how
many people buy it and C1 AND 3rd party plug-ins! Really, about
all PSCS is for most users is an Action platform for 3rd party
products. If PSCS was so good, why do so many need 3rd party
actions to simplify the routines???

Anyway, flamesuit on... no, off, I can take the heat. :-)

Jim
Who designed this thing, a blind monkey on LSD, and they have the
nerve to charge almost 800 U.S. for it ! I vote it as the "worlds
most user unfriendly softwear" Elements 3 is better because it
promts you to certain functions. Want to become the next Bill
Gates ? Design a photo edit platform that you don't need 2
lifetimes to master.
--
Jim Fuglestad
http://www.fuglestadphotography.com
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/366
  • You're not in third grade anymore. Take as many recesses as you
want!
  • Why simply live and let live? Live and help live.
--
rich
http://www.photoallure.com

'I'm not such a bad guy
once you get to know me'
-Agent Smith
--
Jim Fuglestad
http://www.fuglestadphotography.com
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/366
  • You're not in third grade anymore. Take as many recesses as you
want!
  • Why simply live and let live? Live and help live.
--
rich
http://www.photoallure.com

'I'm not such a bad guy
once you get to know me'
-Agent Smith
 

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