Photoshop

In the beginning PS was excellent, streamlined, and efficient. Best image editor on the market. By the time they got to version 3, it was starting to get bulky, and less efficient, the interface was suffering (lots of new abilities; nowhere to put them). To even come close to what it used to be like, you need a 21" screen; and close and stash most of the windows. By version 5, it had gotten very "junky".

The trick with PS, is there are a dozen different ways to approach many things that you do. Thats where the power of the program is; If you have to get it done, theres a way to do it with PS. So flexible! So powerfull!

But in fairness, paintshop pro, photoimpact, corel, and gimp, all have pretty much the same image editing abilities (photoshop doesn't have the best jpeg rendering ability.)

I've been waiting for them to streamline the interface in PS. In the meantime... I often use other editors, for what they do better, quicker, more accurately.

Mark Hayes
 
Michael ,

Digital photography represents a sea-change in the way we think about color imaging. When you shoot color film you only handle the exposure of the slide/negative. After that you hand the rest of the process off to a lab where your film is processed and prints are generated. Admittedly this workflow was easier, but I hated it!

Now with digital photography there has been a paradigm shift in that process. I now control the entire life of my images from capture to processing to printmaking. I may be more of a control-freak than most, but I'll bet many pro photographers feel the same way about owning their work from start to finish.

However, with that extra control comes extra responsibility. It is not easy to take the place of a good lab all by yourself and it can't and shouldn't be done overnight. Photoshop is built around the concepts and workflows of an actuall darkroom environment. Most color photographers never went into a darkroom, so the concepts and workflow seem strange. As you begin to take control of the other 2/3rds of the photography process, you'll be glad you invested your efforts into learning the basics of Photoshop.

Jason
 
Yet another deliberate wind-up. I don't know why these threads are not removed.

I might just start a thread on this forum along the lines of "why buy an SLR when my camera phone makes pictures".. oh yeah and change my name to "photomaster".
Michael ,

Digital photography represents a sea-change in the way we think
about color imaging. When you shoot color film you only handle the
exposure of the slide/negative. After that you hand the rest of
the process off to a lab where your film is processed and prints
are generated. Admittedly this workflow was easier, but I hated it!

Now with digital photography there has been a paradigm shift in
that process. I now control the entire life of my images from
capture to processing to printmaking. I may be more of a
control-freak than most, but I'll bet many pro photographers feel
the same way about owning their work from start to finish.

However, with that extra control comes extra responsibility. It is
not easy to take the place of a good lab all by yourself and it
can't and shouldn't be done overnight. Photoshop is built around
the concepts and workflows of an actuall darkroom environment.
Most color photographers never went into a darkroom, so the
concepts and workflow seem strange. As you begin to take control
of the other 2/3rds of the photography process, you'll be glad you
invested your efforts into learning the basics of Photoshop.

Jason
--
Hasselblad H1
 
My bet is that it would get alot of traffic. But you'd have to post it in one of the SLR forums because the pro group would just look at it with a blank stare, shake their head, and move on. But a lot of the SLR forums have folk that just purchased SLRs and will defend their purchase & justify it to the death.
I might just start a thread on this forum along the lines of "why
buy an SLR when my camera phone makes pictures".. oh yeah and
change my name to "photomaster".
Michael ,

Digital photography represents a sea-change in the way we think
about color imaging. When you shoot color film you only handle the
exposure of the slide/negative. After that you hand the rest of
the process off to a lab where your film is processed and prints
are generated. Admittedly this workflow was easier, but I hated it!

Now with digital photography there has been a paradigm shift in
that process. I now control the entire life of my images from
capture to processing to printmaking. I may be more of a
control-freak than most, but I'll bet many pro photographers feel
the same way about owning their work from start to finish.

However, with that extra control comes extra responsibility. It is
not easy to take the place of a good lab all by yourself and it
can't and shouldn't be done overnight. Photoshop is built around
the concepts and workflows of an actuall darkroom environment.
Most color photographers never went into a darkroom, so the
concepts and workflow seem strange. As you begin to take control
of the other 2/3rds of the photography process, you'll be glad you
invested your efforts into learning the basics of Photoshop.

Jason
--
Hasselblad H1
 
First you come out here whining about it, now you kick yourself for being a dope.

Don't be so hard on yourself.

I must say that after reading some of your recent threads, you're quite an interesting fellow. A bit manic-depressive, though. Coupled with your poor self image your life may be lacking some flavor.

I suggest 100mG Zoloft daily, just to tighten up a few loose screws.

Life is too short. Take my advice, you'll thank me later.
Michael D Robinson wrote:
Yea, I know you guys are right ! Thats why many experts in the
field of technology state that the MAJOR problem holding back the
wide adoption of computers and softwear is user unfriendlyness of
everything digital.
You're joking, right? Computers used to be in cool glass rooms with
raised floors, maintained by people in white coats. Your computer
is now an appliance. Juat like your toaster.

Lets move on, OK...

I don't give a rats if you can do it or
you daughter or grandpa ! If photoshop is all you can come up with
since man walked on the moon in 1969 !
How can you critisize something you openly admit you don't
understand? I'll stop with that, although there is more to be said.

The joke is on you, The big
problem is that most reasonable men or women don't want to deal
with it. If your photos are so bad that you need photoshop all the
time, I would REALLY question your abilities, because we know that
there are many that came before you using slide film for commercial
purposes who did'nt photosh_T! and were better photogs than you !!!
I burned and dodged in a wet darkroom. Got headaches looking
througfh a grain magnifier.

Welcome to the 21st century, pops.
....Design a photo edit platform that you don't need 2 lifetimes to master.
Perhaps this would be more suitable....

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00002S9P7
--
rich
http://www.photoallure.com

'I'm not such a bad guy
once you get to know me'
-Agent Smith
--
rich
http://www.photoallure.com

'I'm not such a bad guy
once you get to know me'
-Agent Smith
 
Jeez! You guys let this little twerp bait you. Everyone knows what Photoshop can do. Nothing else compares. I'm not a pro but I'm a rather serious editor of my photographs and I use Photoshop 6 & Elements 3. Couldn't do without them.

Photodan
 
Michael knows how to turn on the computer and learned how to type, which took a lot of practice. I believe he can learn how to use Photoshop too. I'm also glad that this is a room in cyberspace, because if we were all in the same room somewhere we would all be shot by a crazed gunman.

Glenn Comeau
 
Got cha, Evil, I'll take the pills if we can pull your feeding tube FIRST ! LOL
Don't be so hard on yourself.

I must say that after reading some of your recent threads, you're
quite an interesting fellow. A bit manic-depressive, though.
Coupled with your poor self image your life may be lacking some
flavor.

I suggest 100mG Zoloft daily, just to tighten up a few loose screws.

Life is too short. Take my advice, you'll thank me later.
Michael D Robinson wrote:
Yea, I know you guys are right ! Thats why many experts in the
field of technology state that the MAJOR problem holding back the
wide adoption of computers and softwear is user unfriendlyness of
everything digital.
You're joking, right? Computers used to be in cool glass rooms with
raised floors, maintained by people in white coats. Your computer
is now an appliance. Juat like your toaster.

Lets move on, OK...

I don't give a rats if you can do it or
you daughter or grandpa ! If photoshop is all you can come up with
since man walked on the moon in 1969 !
How can you critisize something you openly admit you don't
understand? I'll stop with that, although there is more to be said.

The joke is on you, The big
problem is that most reasonable men or women don't want to deal
with it. If your photos are so bad that you need photoshop all the
time, I would REALLY question your abilities, because we know that
there are many that came before you using slide film for commercial
purposes who did'nt photosh_T! and were better photogs than you !!!
I burned and dodged in a wet darkroom. Got headaches looking
througfh a grain magnifier.

Welcome to the 21st century, pops.
....Design a photo edit platform that you don't need 2 lifetimes to master.
Perhaps this would be more suitable....

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00002S9P7
--
rich
http://www.photoallure.com

'I'm not such a bad guy
once you get to know me'
-Agent Smith
--
rich
http://www.photoallure.com

'I'm not such a bad guy
once you get to know me'
-Agent Smith
 
Exactly right Carl, Denial is a huge disease in an alienated society where people defend things although they know deep down that they are wrong. They hold on to outdated and false assumptions like religion, wealth, war, politics, etc., because they see no real hope for the future.

Unable to comprehend the fast paced nature of technological change (although they profess to) they cling to outmoded forms of expression because the truth scares them. In art you see it everywhere, the lack of skill, lack of talent. Look at the music and film industry for example. Everything there is RETRO, going back to the same old, worn out themes and scripts and scores, because of the lack of creativity. In photography its the same, they have tools like photoshop, but we see little real creativity comig out of it,or any thing new, that could not have been done by hand, by MAX for example 30 years ago. Photoshop is really RETRO, all its tools and masks and filters are really just the same old same old in an eaiser to apply package.

Oh well, Visionarys are always stoned or burned at the stake.... more wood please ! Lets see some real photogrphers stand up and give us a STRAIGHT print with out the feeding tube crutch of Photosh_T Real photgraphers don't need digital or photoshop !!!
I love PS but there is some truth in Mchaels comments and I suspect
deep down most agree but would not admit it. I doubt if there's
anyone out there who fully understands PS.
Carl
 
That is truely a blast, You don't know my age, but that does not matter as cronological age means nothing of any relevance here or elsewhere. Age is all in the mind my friend and I can assure you I am a younger thinker than yourself and you prove it by thinking that you are doing something "new" or revolutionary.
I've read exactly 2 threads in this forum & you sir are an
arrogant, set in his ways, old man that is willingly ignorant to
useful technology.

GROW UP, you're already in your 60s, ACT LIKE IT! Sheesh.
Who designed this thing, a blind monkey on LSD, and they have the
nerve to charge almost 800 U.S. for it ! I vote it as the "worlds
most user unfriendly softwear" Elements 3 is better because it
promts you to certain functions. Want to become the next Bill
Gates ? Design a photo edit platform that you don't need 2
lifetimes to master.
 
Jeez! You guys let this little twerp bait you. Everyone knows what
Photoshop can do. Nothing else compares. I'm not a pro but I'm a
rather serious editor of my photographs and I use Photoshop 6 &
Elements 3. Couldn't do without them.

Photodan
You are now showing your weekness, Dan says he couldn't do without them,why not try harder when taking your shots. Jason says he likes total control! If you have total control over taking images, then why do you need PS
 
with it ! The problem is that if we are so advanced with computers and technology, there should be a more friendly and useful inteface. Real Masters in any profession are able to become "Master" because they distil everyting down to the elemental, which at this junction is impossibel with the current photoshop. I even believe that it is keep in its present form, so some of the lackys here can rave and get on a big ego trip about how good they are with an extention of the male organ (photoshop) This also justifies the HIGH price of this softwear and keeps the stock price high to boot. Then the peeps that are good at it, can get on the high horse and preach to use that they indeed are "artists"! Which many are not. Also, I know from painting, that its a known fact that artists are NEVER satisfied with their work, althought much of the disatisfaction is unnessary, except to them. So many times I would fool and perfect a painting so many times that it would have to be started all over again, probably for no good reason.
Always. Take a formula 1 race car..if you don't know the specifics
about how to race it, you will crash and die. Heck...ever notice
that a manual transmission car is slightly harder to drive than an
automatic, but it's always faster given the same other specs.
Power=complexity.

There is always a constant trade off between power and convenience.
The thing is: people who use photoshop want to be able to control
every aspect of the image. Given the unbelievable power that
Photoshop contains, it is incredibly easy to use. You do have to
learn what you're doing, though, like anything. The Curves tool
alone takes weeks to really, really get used to tweaking
everything, but I made a determined effort because I've seen what
it can do. Now, I can go into Curves, because of the easy to
understand interface, make the tweaks I need to in usually less
than a minute and drastically improve / correct the contrast, color
balance and such.

One thing to realize is that nearly every photograph relies on some
sort of processing. In film, it's the darkroom. I shoot straight
digital, which, due to the anti-aliasing filter on the camera,
requires a bit of sharpening in nearly every image. Also, tweaking
the contrast and color can let you create your vision of the image.
Now, definitely, the better the original photo (proper exposure,
tack sharp, etc) the better it will be to work with in Photoshop.
It's not a cure all, but it can make great photos truly stunning.

I've been using Photoshop since v4, about 8 years total, and I'm
still learning things on a regular basis. I'd actually only say I
know about 75% of the tools well, and probably less than half of
what can really be done with them, and I know a LOT. There's just
that much power. Even so, when I first started, I was able to use
the levels tool and basic layers very easily. As I grew more
experienced, I started to unlock the more powerful features of the
program...I'm still learning. Lots of times I will find easier and
better ways to do things I was really a slave to, but I learn and
get that much better. But I can do things now that I never would
have been able to do 3 years ago. In another 5 years, I'll be that
much better.

Personally, the dumbed-down interface on something like Elements is
exceedingly frustrating. I don't want the stuff completely
automated, since every image is different, and I know a lot better
than the program what I want the final image to look like. Sure,
there are some things that could be a little better, but that's
every program. I'm also not saying that you can't have easy to use
things that do powerful things...just that if you want the control
over the details, it means more complexity, more options, and more
ways to do things.

Photoshop also has many different levels of the complexity. Curves
can do everything that Levels can do...but levels is easier to
understand. It also doesn't do the rest of what curves can do.
Curves can effectively replace levels, hue/saturation, color
balance, and contrast/brightness. However, you really need to know
what you're doing in some respects on that. If you just want to
increase contrast without delving into curves, you can just use the
easier contrast adjustment. Usually the results won't be as good,
but you can use it.

Also, there are about 15 different methods to sharpen an image, and
they all have strengths and weaknesses. You can use the simple
"sharpen" or "sharpen more" if you want, or you can take more
control and use Unsharp Mask. You can also use the sharpen tool,
layers with unsharp mask to create selective sharpening, high pass
sharpening, luminance channel sharpening, etc, etc, all with
slightly different results. You don't HAVE to know those things to
sharpen an image, but they're there if you need them to get the
effect you can't get with just the 'sharpen' command. Power =
complexity.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.jordansteele.com
 
A rare man of "most practicle application"
In the beginning PS was excellent, streamlined, and efficient.
Best image editor on the market. By the time they got to version
3, it was starting to get bulky, and less efficient, the interface
was suffering (lots of new abilities; nowhere to put them). To
even come close to what it used to be like, you need a 21" screen;
and close and stash most of the windows. By version 5, it had
gotten very "junky".
The trick with PS, is there are a dozen different ways to approach
many things that you do. Thats where the power of the program is;
If you have to get it done, theres a way to do it with PS. So
flexible! So powerfull!
But in fairness, paintshop pro, photoimpact, corel, and gimp, all
have pretty much the same image editing abilities (photoshop
doesn't have the best jpeg rendering ability.)
I've been waiting for them to streamline the interface in PS. In
the meantime... I often use other editors, for what they do better,
quicker, more accurately.

Mark Hayes
 
and don't understand the hysterical nature of their uniformed comments !
Jeez! You guys let this little twerp bait you. Everyone knows what
Photoshop can do. Nothing else compares. I'm not a pro but I'm a
rather serious editor of my photographs and I use Photoshop 6 &
Elements 3. Couldn't do without them.

Photodan
You are now showing your weekness, Dan says he couldn't do without
them,why not try harder when taking your shots. Jason says he likes
total control! If you have total control over taking images, then
why do you need PS
 
.....Real Masters in any profession are able to become
"Master" because they distil everyting down to the elemental, which
at this junction is impossibel with the current photoshop.
As stated, with control comes complexity. The more things you want to be able to control, the more complex the program.

You should also be aware that Photoshop is NOT just a photo manipulation program. If it were, perhaps it could be as simple as you seem to think it should be.

Nonetheless, it's also a artist's painting program, an illustration tool, a web graphics tool, and an entire prepress printing tool. In short, it's an entire Craftsman tool chest in a single box.
Also, I know from painting...
Fine. Easy question: How long does it take to master painting?

Second question: How many days, or hours, or minutes have you spent learning and attempting to master Photoshop?

Case closed.
 
Real photgraphers don't need digital or photoshop !!!

that is a stupid statement....its not that we NEED digital...since i moved to NYC there hasn't been 1 client that has wanted film...so do i say " sorry I'm a real photographer and I only shoot film, please give your project to someone else" your a moron....
 
Be a man and try it, maybe they will change their brainwashed tune ! "We aspire to something that does not exist, but should exist"
Real photgraphers don't need digital or photoshop !!!

that is a stupid statement....its not that we NEED digital...since
i moved to NYC there hasn't been 1 client that has wanted film...so
do i say " sorry I'm a real photographer and I only shoot film,
please give your project to someone else" your a moron....
 
and learned a few things. What more can we ask ! Instead of blandness we have aspired to a higher truth !
.....Real Masters in any profession are able to become
"Master" because they distil everyting down to the elemental, which
at this junction is impossibel with the current photoshop.
As stated, with control comes complexity. The more things you want
to be able to control, the more complex the program.

You should also be aware that Photoshop is NOT just a photo
manipulation program. If it were, perhaps it could be as simple as
you seem to think it should be.

Nonetheless, it's also a artist's painting program, an illustration
tool, a web graphics tool, and an entire prepress printing tool. In
short, it's an entire Craftsman tool chest in a single box.
Also, I know from painting...
Fine. Easy question: How long does it take to master painting?

Second question: How many days, or hours, or minutes have you spent
learning and attempting to master Photoshop?

Case closed.
 

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