D7 Impressive Feature Set

Hello,

As I have said elsewhere, If I find the autofocus to be OK when I test a sample, I will buy a D7. I think the D7 deserves more Kudos than it seems to receive in this group. I was looking at a Olympus E-10 in a Oslo (Norway) store today. Imressive camera, but I thought the viewfinder provided sparse information.

Enter the D7's viewfinder: It provides a wealth of information! In my taste, this is very nice: I can get all the information I want without taking my eye from the viewfinder. There is a bit to learn, but that means I will have a fun time...

Phil has an excellent review of the D7's viewfinder capabilities here:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/minoltadimage7/page3.asp

Geir Ove

While it is true that a good deal more information can be overlayed on a D7, I can say that in practice, the one thing of those that I wish my E-10 had (that it does not currently have) is the Manual Focus indicator. The rest just clutter the view.

I mean c'mon, a camera shake indicator?

Geir Ove said:

Hello,

As I have said elsewhere, If I find the autofocus to be OK when I
test a sample, I will buy a D7. I think the D7 deserves more Kudos
than it seems to receive in this group. I was looking at a Olympus
E-10 in a Oslo (Norway) store today. Imressive camera, but I
thought the viewfinder provided sparse information.

Enter the D7's viewfinder: It provides a wealth of information! In
my taste, this is very nice: I can get all the information I want
without taking my eye from the viewfinder. There is a bit to learn,
but that means I will have a fun time...

Phil has an excellent review of the D7's viewfinder capabilities here:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/minoltadimage7/page3.asp

Geir Ove

Click to expand...

Gonzo

a 'What' !

It doesnt have that does it ?

Thats too funny

Camera shake warning. A hand shaking symbol, lower left.

Interesting. Be nice to see some specs on the tech of that one. I'd assume it uses a silicon chip inertia sensor and detects movement in the excess of X (wonder what X is) in at least x-axis and y-axis, maybe in z-axis and/or on arbitrary axis during the shutter (ahem). Just like car bags.

Mike

The D7 probably only considers shutter speed or shutter speed and focal length in deciding on camea shake.

The E-10 has the folowing information in the viewfinder:

Shutter Speed
Aperture
Macro symbol (if set to Macro)
"WB" if preset white Balance is selected
Amount, if any, of exposure compensation selected
Flash status.
Spot or Center meter symbol if one or other selected.
AEL symbol if AEL selected
Focus symbol

None of this information appears in the picture area so that it does not interfair with composing your photos.

This is more than enough information for me.

Frank B

Mike Roberts said:

Camera shake warning. A hand shaking symbol, lower left.

Interesting. Be nice to see some specs on the tech of that one. I'd
assume it uses a silicon chip inertia sensor and detects movement
in the excess of X (wonder what X is) in at least x-axis and
y-axis, maybe in z-axis and/or on arbitrary axis during the shutter
(ahem). Just like car bags.

Mike

Click to expand...

Mike,

I think you're making this out to be way too complicated. Other cameras (35mm) have used similar indicators. They are nothing more than an indicator that shows up once the shutter speed has reached some threshold, 1/60 sec. for example. If you aren't paying any more attention to the shutter speed than that, you probably deserve a blurry picture. (Not meaning YOU specifically, of course.)

Steve

Mike Roberts said:

Camera shake warning. A hand shaking symbol, lower left.

Interesting. Be nice to see some specs on the tech of that one. I'd
assume it uses a silicon chip inertia sensor and detects movement
in the excess of X (wonder what X is) in at least x-axis and
y-axis, maybe in z-axis and/or on arbitrary axis during the shutter
(ahem). Just like car bags.

Mike

Click to expand...

Oh man, if that's the case, it really IS just something to clutter the view with!

Steve Dean said:

Steve

Mike Roberts said:

Camera shake warning. A hand shaking symbol, lower left.

Interesting. Be nice to see some specs on the tech of that one. I'd
assume it uses a silicon chip inertia sensor and detects movement
in the excess of X (wonder what X is) in at least x-axis and
y-axis, maybe in z-axis and/or on arbitrary axis during the shutter
(ahem). Just like car bags.

Mike

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Wait a second, I just realized something. If I understand Phil's diagram correctly, eveyry single bit of information you get through the viewfinder is overlayed over the preview image. That means that you are losing a bit of the view with each piece of information you turn on!

If you go and turn everything on, I'd venture to say you'd be losing so much view, especially along the left side of the frame, that the camera would be tough to use for anything but very center-frame oriented shots (i.e. snapshots).

To get as much information as you get on the E-10 display, which doesn't obscure the viewfinder, you'd be losing out information along both lower corners and the upper left corner of the image. Ah well, I guess since the EVF is fuzzy at the corners anyway, it doesn't matter .... RIGHT?

Now I guess this all leads to the question -- which things can be turned on and off in the viewfinder? Everything? Inquiring minds want to know!

Geir Ove said:

Hello,

As I have said elsewhere, If I find the autofocus to be OK when I
test a sample, I will buy a D7. I think the D7 deserves more Kudos
than it seems to receive in this group. I was looking at a Olympus
E-10 in a Oslo (Norway) store today. Imressive camera, but I
thought the viewfinder provided sparse information.

Enter the D7's viewfinder: It provides a wealth of information! In
my taste, this is very nice: I can get all the information I want
without taking my eye from the viewfinder. There is a bit to learn,
but that means I will have a fun time...

Phil has an excellent review of the D7's viewfinder capabilities here:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/minoltadimage7/page3.asp

Geir Ove

Click to expand...

Dr. Gonzo said:

Wait a second, I just realized something. If I understand Phil's
diagram correctly, eveyry single bit of information you get through
the viewfinder is overlayed over the preview image. That means that
you are losing a bit of the view with each piece of information you
turn on!

If you go and turn everything on, I'd venture to say you'd be
losing so much view, especially along the left side of the frame,
that the camera would be tough to use for anything but very
center-frame oriented shots (i.e. snapshots).

To get as much information as you get on the E-10 display, which
doesn't obscure the viewfinder, you'd be losing out information
along both lower corners and the upper left corner of the image. Ah
well, I guess since the EVF is fuzzy at the corners anyway, it
doesn't matter .... RIGHT?

Now I guess this all leads to the question -- which things can be
turned on and off in the viewfinder? Everything? Inquiring minds
want to know!

Click to expand...

Yes, Doc - if you had read the whole review instead of just the conclusion page, you would see that you can turn it completely off or have just a partial information screen, or have the full one.

It was very presumptuous of you to assume exactly how much of the review I had read. As a matter of fact, I look through every page, although not as closely as I would have if I were intending on buying this camera. Rudeness is in no way called for, I'm sorry if your "baby" isn't as good as it might have been (I was about to say "sucks," but let's face it, i'm sure this camera doesn't suck) ... don't take your frustrations out on me out on me.

Now then, I went back and looked a little closer at the setting of the EVfF overlays -- and from what I can tell, it's more or less an "all or nothing" proposition -- you either have all the overlays that display (i.e. all the "always on" ones, plus those image/exposure correction functions you have set differently from default), or you have everything completely off, or just the AF brackets. Could you please point out to me where you are getting your

"partial information screen" from? I can't seem to find any indication of any control over what individual pieces of information display.

Tricia said:

Dr. Gonzo said:

Wait a second, I just realized something. If I understand Phil's
diagram correctly, eveyry single bit of information you get through
the viewfinder is overlayed over the preview image. That means that
you are losing a bit of the view with each piece of information you
turn on!

If you go and turn everything on, I'd venture to say you'd be
losing so much view, especially along the left side of the frame,
that the camera would be tough to use for anything but very
center-frame oriented shots (i.e. snapshots).

To get as much information as you get on the E-10 display, which
doesn't obscure the viewfinder, you'd be losing out information
along both lower corners and the upper left corner of the image. Ah
well, I guess since the EVF is fuzzy at the corners anyway, it
doesn't matter .... RIGHT?

Now I guess this all leads to the question -- which things can be
turned on and off in the viewfinder? Everything? Inquiring minds
want to know!

Click to expand...

Yes, Doc - if you had read the whole review instead of just the
conclusion page, you would see that you can turn it completely off
or have just a partial information screen, or have the full one.

Click to expand...

Dr. Gonzo said:

It was very presumptuous of you

Click to expand...

Your quite obviously an E10aholic, so why not do us good folk a favour and go and play on the oly forum, and leave this place to people who are seriously considering the Minolta D7

Dennis

Dr. Gonzo said:

It was very presumptuous of you to assume exactly how much of the
review I had read. As a matter of fact, I look through every page,
although not as closely as I would have if I were intending on
buying this camera. Rudeness is in no way called for, I'm sorry if
your "baby" isn't as good as it might have been (I was about to say
"sucks," but let's face it, i'm sure this camera doesn't suck) ...
don't take your frustrations out on me out on me.

Now then, I went back and looked a little closer at the setting of
the EVfF overlays -- and from what I can tell, it's more or less an
"all or nothing" proposition -- you either have all the overlays
that display (i.e. all the "always on" ones, plus those
image/exposure correction functions you have set differently from
default), or you have everything completely off, or just the AF
brackets. Could you please point out to me where you are getting
your
"partial information screen" from? I can't seem to find any
indication of any control over what individual pieces of
information display.

Click to expand...

What happened to your idea, "It's easy for us E-10 people to be aloof and take the moral higher ground"? And in spite of your presumptions, I'm not frustrated - I'm sure I'll enjoy my D7 just as much as you enjoy your E-10 (which is too heavy for me - I have a bit of arthritis in my hands).

Sorry I wasn't clearer (or even totally accurate!) - my "partial information" is your "AF auto brackets". I knew that there were three levels, but thought that there were a couple of more items shown on the brackets screen. I don't think that I said that you could control which individual pieces of information display.

Now, if you'll just sing me a nice lullaby, I'll say goodnight. ;-)

There are more features:

1) Max shutter speed 1/2000 sec. E-10 has 1/640. Maybe important when covering sports events.

2) Electronic ViewFinder (EVF) probably better than conventional viewfinder in Low Light Conditions. E-10 even uses a prsim that splits ligth between CCD and ViewFinder: That means less light to both! (That’s why conventional SLRs used a mirror)

• Zoomable EVF to ease manual focus

3) Good Control over internal Image Processing algorithms
Phil said:

"The DiMAGE7 allows you to control three variables of its internal image processing algorithms, they are colour saturation, contrast and sharpening. This gives the photographer a good range of flexibility in controlling the way the final image will look, or even simply setting up the camera for his preferred balance. Below you'll find samples of the same scene shot with different values for each of these settings."
see: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/minoltadimage7/page14.asp

4) Enhanced Color Space: (though it requires you to convert)
Phil said: (see: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/minoltadimage7/page13.asp )

"It's a good thing that the DiMAGE 7 shoots in a wider colour gamut than sRGB (which has a very limiting and tight colour gamut), however it would be better to have a menu option which allows you to select between this special proprietary wide gamut colour space and sRGB."

5) Good Picture Quality:
Low Chromatic aberration

• Low Barrel and Pincushion distortion.

See: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/minoltadimage7/page18.asp

• Good Color.

”Getting down to the nitty gritty the whole colour space issue means you've got an extra step in your regular workflow, that said once you've done it you do get very good colour”
See: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/minoltadimage7/page21.asp

6) Programmable Time Lapse Recording

7) Wide range of pre-programmed Exposure Modes.

• Portrait, Sports, Sunset, Night, Text

Geir Ove

1. You aren't going to seriously shoot sports with anything short of a D30 or D1 (and some might disagree on the D30), no matter if it's got a 1/10,000th shutter, especially not with an EVF. And certainly not if your AF is slow. You can casually shoot sports with lesser cameras such as an E10, and you'll be able to get some results, just not consistently good ones. View the Oly forum for samples, plenty of sports and action shots there. The 1/640 shutter speed is not much of a limitation when it comes to people in action; it's more of a problem when trying to shoot wide open in bright sun.

2. In practice, the prism works about as well as a mirror setup would in the dark, you lose your visual image when it's about as dark as you'd lose it with a mirror. So in that respect the EVF could be better. I do have a concern though, "pushing up the CCD sensitivity" -- is this the same thing as raising the ISO equivalency? If so, does it revert to a lower ISO with a flash on (I dont think you'd want to use the 800 ISO setting with flash)? If so, does that affect the EVF preview?

3. I think the consensus is that in-camera image processing as a whole is best avoided entirely for the best results.

4. Both a plus and a minus. How likely is it, given the consumerish nature of this camera, that the extended colorspace will be truly exploited?

5. Most high quality multicoated lenses will have low CA and distortion.

6. This feature is not specific to the D7; E10's got it as well.

7. Preset modes can be nice -- but only if they are the way you'd set them. Maybe they are, but if not, only programmable preset modes would be useful to you. Potentially good, but possibly useless.

I'm not posting this to spite you, or to boost the E10 specifically, but I do feel it is important for you to have the whole picture and not allow yourself to become deluded ...

Geir Ove said:

There are more features:

1) Max shutter speed 1/2000 sec. E-10 has 1/640. Maybe important
when covering sports events.

2) Electronic ViewFinder (EVF) probably better than conventional
viewfinder in Low Light Conditions. E-10 even uses a prsim that
splits ligth between CCD and ViewFinder: That means less light to
both! (That’s why conventional SLRs used a mirror)

• Zoomable EVF to ease manual focus

3) Good Control over internal Image Processing algorithms
Phil said:
"The DiMAGE7 allows you to control three variables of its internal
image processing algorithms, they are colour saturation, contrast
and sharpening. This gives the photographer a good range of
flexibility in controlling the way the final image will look, or
even simply setting up the camera for his preferred balance. Below
you'll find samples of the same scene shot with different values
for each of these settings."
see: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/minoltadimage7/page14.asp

4) Enhanced Color Space: (though it requires you to convert)
Phil said: (see:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/minoltadimage7/page13.asp )
"It's a good thing that the DiMAGE 7 shoots in a wider colour gamut
than sRGB (which has a very limiting and tight colour gamut),
however it would be better to have a menu option which allows you
to select between this special proprietary wide gamut colour space
and sRGB."

5) Good Picture Quality:
Low Chromatic aberration

• Low Barrel and Pincushion distortion.

See: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/minoltadimage7/page18.asp

• Good Color.

”Getting down to the nitty gritty the whole colour space
issue means you've got an extra step in your regular workflow, that
said once you've done it you do get very good colour”
See: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/minoltadimage7/page21.asp

6) Programmable Time Lapse Recording

7) Wide range of pre-programmed Exposure Modes.

• Portrait, Sports, Sunset, Night, Text

Geir Ove

Click to expand...

Geir

Geir Ove said:

1) Max shutter speed 1/2000 sec. E-10 has 1/640. Maybe important
when covering sports events.

Click to expand...

Well there are a lot of E-10 sports photos. I have not seen any of the D7 yet. Go over to http://www.belgiumdigital.com and check the picture of the girl jumping taken in mid air with AF. The D7 would probably catch the next jumper with its slow AF. The 1/640 is enough to stop rotor blades of a helicopter so no you dont need 1/2000 of a second for sports. Actually if you would know something about this you would know that you would want a shutterspeed that shows a bit of motion in sports pictures so you would not even go anywhere near 1/640.

Geir Ove said:

2) Electronic ViewFinder (EVF) probably better than conventional
viewfinder in Low Light Conditions. E-10 even uses a prsim that

Click to expand...

Well the review said it all. EVF's are not viewfinder. They are supposed to be on Video cameras where quality and speed doesnt matter. Guess once why professional cameras have an optical viewfinder. The D7 cant even focus in low light where the E-10 has no problem whatsoever. So maybe you get a B&W preview inyour EVF that may be a bit brighter than what i see in my viewfinder but i get a sharp picture vs an OOF one.

Geir Ove said:

3) Good Control over internal Image Processing algorithms

Click to expand...

Guess what any camera has these settings

Geir Ove said:

4) Enhanced Color Space: (though it requires you to convert)

Click to expand...

I wouldnt really want to have to convert every single JPEG (BTW loading and resaving a JPEG file looses quality). I rather have a color space that is immediately useable in PS

Geir Ove said:

5) Good Picture Quality:

Click to expand...

Ok But i already have that

Geir Ove said:

• Good Color.

Click to expand...

Have that one too

Geir Ove said:

6) Programmable Time Lapse Recording

Click to expand...

That too

Geir Ove said:

7) Wide range of pre-programmed Exposure Modes.

• Portrait, Sports, Sunset, Night, Text

Click to expand...

This may be fun for somebody who doesnt know how to set apertures and/or shutterspeed

Geir Ove said:

2) ... E-10 even uses a prsim that
splits ligth between CCD and ViewFinder: That means less light to
both! (That’s why conventional SLRs used a mirror)

Click to expand...

Actually this is an interesting point. Since the prism in an E-10 does divert light to the viewfinder then, presumably, less light falls on the CCD and, furthermore, the E-10 viewfinder must, again presumably, be less bright than the viewfinder in a conventional SLR when the mirror is reflecting ALL the incoming light. Is this a valid argument, if not, why not? If it is valid, then for a given lighting level and for, say, a fixed aperture and ISO setting does the E-10 require a longer exposure time than the equivalent SLR/mirror camera? Conversely, is the brightness of the E-10 viewfinder on a par with that of a conventioanl SLR?

Just asking ... Terry.

1. The split probably drops the ISO rating from 100 to 80.

2. With the f2/2.4 lens the viewfinder is bright. Lots of people use their mirror SLRs with lenses which are 1 or 2 fstops less (much more light then is used by the E-10 viewfinder). If anyone looks at the e-10 in a store remember that it has to be turned on, otherwise the viewfinder will be very dark.

3. There are advantages to the split prism vs. a mirror:

a. The E-10 has an LCD which shows a preview. The D1x, D30 etc do not.
b. The shutter on the E-10 is very quiet - no mirror slap.
c. There is no vibration from the mirror.

The D7 also has these advantages over a mirror SLR.

The issue for me would be the D7's EVF viewfinder. Without having one in my hands I can't judge it, but I have yet to see one I could live with. I really enjoy the clean optical SLR viewfinder of the E-10 in composing.

I'm sure others may prefer the EVF of the D7 and I would love to have it's 28 to 200 zoom range.

Frank B

Terry Sessford said:

Geir Ove said:

2) ... E-10 even uses a prsim that
splits ligth between CCD and ViewFinder: That means less light to
both! (That’s why conventional SLRs used a mirror)

Click to expand...

Actually this is an interesting point. Since the prism in an E-10
does divert light to the viewfinder then, presumably, less light
falls on the CCD and, furthermore, the E-10 viewfinder must, again
presumably, be less bright than the viewfinder in a conventional
SLR when the mirror is reflecting ALL the incoming light. Is this
a valid argument, if not, why not? If it is valid, then for a
given lighting level and for, say, a fixed aperture and ISO setting
does the E-10 require a longer exposure time than the equivalent
SLR/mirror camera? Conversely, is the brightness of the E-10
viewfinder on a par with that of a conventioanl SLR?

Just asking ... Terry.

Click to expand...