Lens design news from Japan

spiritdog

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Thought you folks might enjoy hearing the latest in Lens design from Japan. I run an industrial/military based optical company in the US and I am in Japan this week working on a few programs. In any event, I had a chance to sit down with some local lens designers and get their take on the latest trends.

Just so everybody knows companies like Canon, Nikon and Minolta do not necessarily design all of their own optics. They are often farmed out to be designed and manufactured by a number of OEM manufactures here in Japan. It always amuses me when the yahoos get on their soap boxes and claim one manufactures lenses are so much better then another’s. Truth is competing brands could very well have been designed and manufactured in the same place. The only real differences in designs between manufactures come from the design software (very critical in optics!) and to a lesser degree the opto-mechanics that controle focus. Up until recently the design software being used by everyone was pretty much home grown. According to my friends in Japan this has really changed in the past few years. As it turns out the Japanese are abandoning their home grown software in favor of commercial optical design software developed in the US for commercial and military purposes. The result is that everyone’s designs are starting to look the same and as time goes on the only factor that will separate lenses in terms of true image quality will be price.

So what is my take? With any luck companies like Sigma and Tamron will continue to put price pressure on the high-end optics from Canon and Nikon. Given that the preformance is likely to be the same (except for those who can’t get over the brand loyalty in their head) it should make for more competition. Of course there will always be good and bad lenses but that is to be expected from a marketing point of view. I also think the smaller guys also need to improve their opto-mechanics a bit.

So is there any disruptive technology out there? Most of the people I talked to didn’t think so. One Nikon designer told me off the record that he felt Canon has the lead in terms of intellectual property. Canon typically files more optical patents than any companies in the world. However as someone who uses advanced optical technology similar to Canons for military applications, I can tell you the cost point is not there yet! Thus we are likely to see the differences between brands become more about good marketing…sort of like refrigerators I suppose:-)
 
Thanks for the post. One of the few with some actual info in it. A nice change from 1DsII-D2x high ISO blah blahing :)

Dabar
 
obviously there are plenty of things that dont fit into this. Canon invented DO glass which no one else has at this time.

Also there is more to a lens then optical design. Some sigma lenses have very good optical design but sigma's quality of the whole lens is often poor resulting in premature death of lenses.

Same thing goes for AF motors, image stabilization and other things.

i would say that a lot of the consumer lenses for digicams and the lower cost interchangable lenses are farmed out but i would dare to bet that most of canon's better lenses are either not farmed out or are manufactured for canon but canon has patent on things such as DO.

--
Michael Salzlechner
http://www.PalmsWestPhoto.com
 
First of all DO glass is not all it is cracked up to be and Canon knows this along withe every other optical engineer. It suffers from stray light which is a ***** to get rid of and the main reason designers dont like diffractives. Plenty of people have this technoligy. We have several designs that use diffractives! You are falling into the marketing trap I am afraid.

As for the Sigma lenses...do you have some statistical data to back that up or are you counting on the over reactive reports of this forum to keep you up to date?
obviously there are plenty of things that dont fit into this. Canon
invented DO glass which no one else has at this time.

Also there is more to a lens then optical design. Some sigma lenses
have very good optical design but sigma's quality of the whole lens
is often poor resulting in premature death of lenses.

Same thing goes for AF motors, image stabilization and other things.

i would say that a lot of the consumer lenses for digicams and the
lower cost interchangable lenses are farmed out but i would dare to
bet that most of canon's better lenses are either not farmed out or
are manufactured for canon but canon has patent on things such as
DO.

--
Michael Salzlechner
http://www.PalmsWestPhoto.com
 
What its eventually going to come to is that lenses manufactured in Japan will lose out to lenses made in third-world countries where labor is cheap. China will do to Japan what Japan did to US manufacturing in the past - perhaps not better, but definately cheaper.
Thought you folks might enjoy hearing the latest in Lens design
from Japan. I run an industrial/military based optical company in
the US and I am in Japan this week working on a few programs. In
any event, I had a chance to sit down with some local lens
designers and get their take on the latest trends.

Just so everybody knows companies like Canon, Nikon and Minolta do
not necessarily design all of their own optics. They are often
farmed out to be designed and manufactured by a number of OEM
manufactures here in Japan. It always amuses me when the yahoos get
on their soap boxes and claim one manufactures lenses are so much
better then another’s. Truth is competing brands could very well
have been designed and manufactured in the same place. The only
real differences in designs between manufactures come from the
design software (very critical in optics!) and to a lesser degree
the opto-mechanics that controle focus. Up until recently the
design software being used by everyone was pretty much home grown.
According to my friends in Japan this has really changed in the
past few years. As it turns out the Japanese are abandoning their
home grown software in favor of commercial optical design software
developed in the US for commercial and military purposes. The
result is that everyone’s designs are starting to look the same and
as time goes on the only factor that will separate lenses in terms
of true image quality will be price.

So what is my take? With any luck companies like Sigma and Tamron
will continue to put price pressure on the high-end optics from
Canon and Nikon. Given that the preformance is likely to be the
same (except for those who can’t get over the brand loyalty in
their head) it should make for more competition. Of course there
will always be good and bad lenses but that is to be expected from
a marketing point of view. I also think the smaller guys also need
to improve their opto-mechanics a bit.

So is there any disruptive technology out there? Most of the people
I talked to didn’t think so. One Nikon designer told me off the
record that he felt Canon has the lead in terms of intellectual
property. Canon typically files more optical patents than any
companies in the world. However as someone who uses advanced
optical technology similar to Canons for military applications, I
can tell you the cost point is not there yet! Thus we are likely to
see the differences between brands become more about good
marketing…sort of like refrigerators I suppose:-)
--
Tom
 
First of all DO glass is not all it is cracked up to be and Canon
knows this along withe every other optical engineer. It suffers
from stray light which is a ***** to get rid of and the main reason
designers dont like diffractives. Plenty of people have this
technoligy. We have several designs that use diffractives! You are
falling into the marketing trap I am afraid.
Well lets see. Canon is making two DO lenses that work well and make good money for them and you ? DO Lenses are a compromise. Thats what their design is all about. If you are happy to live with the compromise then you are happy to use that lens. This simply shows that you do not have that much knowledge about lenses at all.
As for the Sigma lenses...do you have some statistical data to back
that up or are you counting on the over reactive reports of this
forum to keep you up to date?
Yes the statistical data of all my own and several other photog's experiences. Sigma lenses break much more and have a much lower QA quality then canon lenses.

To say that everybody has the same lens design capabilities because they are all done by a third party is completely ridicolous.

--
Michael Salzlechner
http://www.PalmsWestPhoto.com
 
Ya know I posted this thread to give people some insite to what is going on. Now I am arguing with some twit who thinks he knows something about lens design let alone an industry he has never seen.

Were do you people like you come from. You didn't even read the thread thourghly. And what is wirh this silly little comment.....

""If you are happy to live with
the compromise then you are happy to use that lens. This simply
shows that you do not have that much knowledge about lenses at all.""
Let me guess...your trying to impress me with you engineering skills.

Let it go Pal....you are out of your class!
First of all DO glass is not all it is cracked up to be and Canon
knows this along withe every other optical engineer. It suffers
from stray light which is a ***** to get rid of and the main reason
designers dont like diffractives. Plenty of people have this
technoligy. We have several designs that use diffractives! You are
falling into the marketing trap I am afraid.
Well lets see. Canon is making two DO lenses that work well and
make good money for them and you ? DO Lenses are a compromise.
Thats what their design is all about. If you are happy to live with
the compromise then you are happy to use that lens. This simply
shows that you do not have that much knowledge about lenses at all.
As for the Sigma lenses...do you have some statistical data to back
that up or are you counting on the over reactive reports of this
forum to keep you up to date?
Yes the statistical data of all my own and several other photog's
experiences. Sigma lenses break much more and have a much lower QA
quality then canon lenses.

To say that everybody has the same lens design capabilities because
they are all done by a third party is completely ridicolous.

--
Michael Salzlechner
http://www.PalmsWestPhoto.com
 
You may want to use a little less of those pills you are on ...
Ya know I posted this thread to give people some insite to what is
going on. Now I am arguing with some twit who thinks he knows
something about lens design let alone an industry he has never seen.
That would be insight I think ?
Were do you people like you come from. You didn't even read the
thread thourghly. And what is wirh this silly little comment.....
Did you mean to say ‘Thoroughly’?

and 'with' ?

All I can see in this post is some idiot who is probably on minimum wage has almost no education and has absolutely no idea on lens design.

Pretty sad but there are a few here that are just like you ...

Not worth discussing anything that requires an IQ greater than an apple with a dork like you ...

--
Michael Salzlechner
http://www.PalmsWestPhoto.com
 
Geez Michael, is that necessary? It's posts like this that give dpr forums a bad image and cause a lot of smart people to go elsewhere.

He probably does know what he is talking about and from his (an Engineer) perspective, DO optics are not all they are cracked up to be. Of course some people are willing to live with the tradeoffs in order to reap the benefits (smaller size) so from a marketing point of view they are sellable.

How about we tone down the ego a bit...myself included.
Ya know I posted this thread to give people some insite to what is
going on. Now I am arguing with some twit who thinks he knows
something about lens design let alone an industry he has never seen.
That would be insight I think ?
Were do you people like you come from. You didn't even read the
thread thourghly. And what is wirh this silly little comment.....
Did you mean to say ‘Thoroughly’?

and 'with' ?

All I can see in this post is some idiot who is probably on minimum
wage has almost no education and has absolutely no idea on lens
design.

Pretty sad but there are a few here that are just like you ...

Not worth discussing anything that requires an IQ greater than an
apple with a dork like you ...

--
Michael Salzlechner
http://www.PalmsWestPhoto.com
--
-------------------------
http://www.pbase.com/eclecticphoto
 
from my experience lenses are different, yes to certain point there is a lot of marketing. but, a) there is more to lenses than optics, the motor as was noted. on the sigma they even have different levels of lenses. Or does that mean that a 100 dollar sigma has the same optics as a 1000 dollar sigma lens.

b) the higher end lenses are coated with anti reflective coating, no this is not a marketing gimmik, even glasses you wear have anti-reflective. If you don't believe me put on on of each pair of glasses look through your winshield of you car. You will see a difference.

for example a lot of electronics when opened up you will notice parts from sony, matsushita who makes for a lot of namebrands, and others. does that mean every electronic gadget, etc. is the same. NO, there is more than those little chips, etc...

abel
First of all DO glass is not all it is cracked up to be and Canon
knows this along withe every other optical engineer. It suffers
from stray light which is a ***** to get rid of and the main reason
designers dont like diffractives. Plenty of people have this
technoligy. We have several designs that use diffractives! You are
falling into the marketing trap I am afraid.
Well lets see. Canon is making two DO lenses that work well and
make good money for them and you ? DO Lenses are a compromise.
Thats what their design is all about. If you are happy to live with
the compromise then you are happy to use that lens. This simply
shows that you do not have that much knowledge about lenses at all.
As for the Sigma lenses...do you have some statistical data to back
that up or are you counting on the over reactive reports of this
forum to keep you up to date?
Yes the statistical data of all my own and several other photog's
experiences. Sigma lenses break much more and have a much lower QA
quality then canon lenses.

To say that everybody has the same lens design capabilities because
they are all done by a third party is completely ridicolous.

--
Michael Salzlechner
http://www.PalmsWestPhoto.com
--
Remember behave.... Someone is watching you from above.
 
Thought you folks might enjoy hearing the latest in Lens design
from Japan. I run an industrial/military based optical company in
the US and I am in Japan this week working on a few programs. In
any event, I had a chance to sit down with some local lens
designers and get their take on the latest trends.
Spiritdog
What I'd like to know is this! Can a Wide Angle lens be made that Works for
a FF digital camera such as the Kodak and Canon .....
Every thing I seem to read says no....I'm refering to the 15mm -24mm range...

It seems in order to get a quality image with these lenses from a Digital FF camera

we must import our files into after market sofware applications to correct problems
with CA and Sharpness ....

From what I'm reading, when it comes to Wide Angle Glass The L on A Cannon Lens
might as well stand for Lousy... 8-/

If Lens Engineers want to earn our respect give us a quality Wide Angle lens that
works on a FF 35mm chip Camera...

I ask again,can a Wide Angle lens be made that Works for a FF 35mm digital camera?
Every thing I'm reading seem to say NO...
 
Zeiss/Contax has shown that a good wide lens can be made - the 21 mm Distagon being a good example.

Canon's 24 mm is no slouch either, but that seems to be the wide limit for very good-to-excellent wide primes available from Canon (the Sigma 20/1.8 has a great reputation among 1.3-1.6X cameras, but usually offers poor corner performance on full-frame).

I can't speak for the 14mm f/2.8 since I haven't heard much about it.
Spiritdog
What I'd like to know is this! Can a Wide Angle lens be made that
Works for
a FF digital camera such as the Kodak and Canon .....
Every thing I seem to read says no....I'm refering to the 15mm
-24mm range...

It seems in order to get a quality image with these lenses from a
Digital FF camera
we must import our files into after market sofware applications to
correct problems
with CA and Sharpness ....

From what I'm reading, when it comes to Wide Angle Glass The L on
A Cannon Lens
might as well stand for Lousy... 8-/

If Lens Engineers want to earn our respect give us a quality Wide
Angle lens that
works on a FF 35mm chip Camera...

I ask again,can a Wide Angle lens be made that Works for a FF 35mm
digital camera?
Every thing I'm reading seem to say NO...
--
Tom
 
Thanks for that interesting post.

What I've noticed in the last couple of years has been some optically good quality inexpensive lenses coming from the second-tier brands with significantly better build quality than previously. And I'm using some of these lenses alongside indisputably great (and expensive) lenses. The difference as you correctly point out it in opto-mechanical performance and once the second-tier gets that right there is bound to be pressure on the major brands which the consumers, pros and amateurs alike, should welcome.

--
Nick Spurrrier
 
It is, of course, not just about the design of the glass. Two companies can take the same computer output for particular lenses and use different optical coatings as has been noted. They can also choose to use more or less plastic in the parts used for focus motors and aperture movement. They can also spec the tolerences more or less tightly for the parts they use to build the lenses. They can use differing paths for quality control. Because of people's perception of lens quality, Canon/Nikon will always be able to ask for more money than Sigma/Tamron but hopefully if lens design is maturing, there will indeed be greater pressure put on the big boys to improve their warranty and lower prices. I think lenses are hugely over priced, but in the end the price is what people are willing to pay. I'm still waiting for somebody to fix the laws of physics and provide that 10-800 mm f1.4 lens in a nice small package.
 
Now that would be nice.. and... I'd be willing to pay extra for it. how does a price tag of 299 dollars sound?

LOL , sorry... I couldn't resits. but, It would be nice.
It is, of course, not just about the design of the glass. Two
companies can take the same computer output for particular lenses
and use different optical coatings as has been noted. They can also
choose to use more or less plastic in the parts used for focus
motors and aperture movement. They can also spec the tolerences
more or less tightly for the parts they use to build the lenses.
They can use differing paths for quality control. Because of
people's perception of lens quality, Canon/Nikon will always be
able to ask for more money than Sigma/Tamron but hopefully if lens
design is maturing, there will indeed be greater pressure put on
the big boys to improve their warranty and lower prices. I think
lenses are hugely over priced, but in the end the price is what
people are willing to pay. I'm still waiting for somebody to fix
the laws of physics and provide that 10-800 mm f1.4 lens in a nice
small package.
--
Remember behave.... Someone is watching you from above.
 
If this impossible-to-make lens could actually be made, I'm sure people would start talking about how nice it would be if laws of physics could be re-written again - this time so that there would be a magic dial that gave f/1.4 the DOF that f/16 gave.
LOL , sorry... I couldn't resits. but, It would be nice.
It is, of course, not just about the design of the glass. Two
companies can take the same computer output for particular lenses
and use different optical coatings as has been noted. They can also
choose to use more or less plastic in the parts used for focus
motors and aperture movement. They can also spec the tolerences
more or less tightly for the parts they use to build the lenses.
They can use differing paths for quality control. Because of
people's perception of lens quality, Canon/Nikon will always be
able to ask for more money than Sigma/Tamron but hopefully if lens
design is maturing, there will indeed be greater pressure put on
the big boys to improve their warranty and lower prices. I think
lenses are hugely over priced, but in the end the price is what
people are willing to pay. I'm still waiting for somebody to fix
the laws of physics and provide that 10-800 mm f1.4 lens in a nice
small package.
--
Remember behave.... Someone is watching you from above.
--
http://www.dmmphotography.com
 
Well, if the lens is short enough, f/1.4 will give the DOF that f/16 gives on a longer lens. Take the proverbial f/2.8 P&S lens for example - huge DOF because f/2.8 is so small.
If this impossible-to-make lens could actually be made, I'm sure
people would start talking about how nice it would be if laws of
physics could be re-written again - this time so that there would
be a magic dial that gave f/1.4 the DOF that f/16 gave.

--
http://www.dmmphotography.com
--
Tom
 
Geez daffy are you kidding me

i simply disagreed with the OP and he called me a twit and you have the guts to open your mouth ?

Lets say i am happy that i am not a follower like you who believes everything a dork like the OP posts on here. I feel sad for people like you.
He probably does know what he is talking about and from his (an
Engineer) perspective, DO optics are not all they are cracked up to
be. Of course some people are willing to live with the tradeoffs
in order to reap the benefits (smaller size) so from a marketing
point of view they are sellable.
He has no clue what he is talking about. I mean anyone with an IQ higher than an apple would have disagreed with him but of course ...
How about we tone down the ego a bit...myself included.
THat would be a good idea for you ...

--
Michael Salzlechner
http://www.PalmsWestPhoto.com
 
Thought you folks might enjoy hearing the latest in Lens design
from Japan. I run an industrial/military based optical company in
the US and I am in Japan this week working on a few programs. In
any event, I had a chance to sit down with some local lens
designers and get their take on the latest trends.

Just so everybody knows companies like Canon, Nikon and Minolta do
not necessarily design all of their own optics. They are often
farmed out to be designed and manufactured by a number of OEM
manufactures here in Japan. It always amuses me when the yahoos get
on their soap boxes and claim one manufactures lenses are so much
better then another’s. Truth is competing brands could very well
have been designed and manufactured in the same place. The only
real differences in designs between manufactures come from the
design software (very critical in optics!) and to a lesser degree
the opto-mechanics that controle focus. Up until recently the
design software being used by everyone was pretty much home grown.
According to my friends in Japan this has really changed in the
past few years. As it turns out the Japanese are abandoning their
home grown software in favor of commercial optical design software
developed in the US for commercial and military purposes. The
result is that everyone’s designs are starting to look the same and
as time goes on the only factor that will separate lenses in terms
of true image quality will be price.

So what is my take? With any luck companies like Sigma and Tamron
will continue to put price pressure on the high-end optics from
Canon and Nikon. Given that the preformance is likely to be the
same (except for those who can’t get over the brand loyalty in
their head) it should make for more competition. Of course there
will always be good and bad lenses but that is to be expected from
a marketing point of view. I also think the smaller guys also need
to improve their opto-mechanics a bit.

So is there any disruptive technology out there? Most of the people
I talked to didn’t think so. One Nikon designer told me off the
record that he felt Canon has the lead in terms of intellectual
property. Canon typically files more optical patents than any
companies in the world. However as someone who uses advanced
optical technology similar to Canons for military applications, I
can tell you the cost point is not there yet! Thus we are likely to
see the differences between brands become more about good
marketing…sort of like refrigerators I suppose:-)
spiritdog is right. the last time i checked sigma has a licensing agreement
with the major camera manufacturers i.e; canon , nikon etc. ,to build
lenses for them.
 
Thought you folks might enjoy hearing the latest in Lens design
from Japan. I run an industrial/military based optical company in
the US and I am in Japan this week working on a few programs. In
any event, I had a chance to sit down with some local lens
designers and get their take on the latest trends.

Just so everybody knows companies like Canon, Nikon and Minolta do
not necessarily design all of their own optics. They are often
farmed out to be designed and manufactured by a number of OEM
manufactures here in Japan. It always amuses me when the yahoos get
on their soap boxes and claim one manufactures lenses are so much
better then another’s. Truth is competing brands could very well
have been designed and manufactured in the same place. The only
real differences in designs between manufactures come from the
design software (very critical in optics!) and to a lesser degree
the opto-mechanics that controle focus. Up until recently the
design software being used by everyone was pretty much home grown.
According to my friends in Japan this has really changed in the
past few years. As it turns out the Japanese are abandoning their
home grown software in favor of commercial optical design software
developed in the US for commercial and military purposes. The
result is that everyone’s designs are starting to look the same and
as time goes on the only factor that will separate lenses in terms
of true image quality will be price.

So what is my take? With any luck companies like Sigma and Tamron
will continue to put price pressure on the high-end optics from
Canon and Nikon. Given that the preformance is likely to be the
same (except for those who can’t get over the brand loyalty in
their head) it should make for more competition. Of course there
will always be good and bad lenses but that is to be expected from
a marketing point of view. I also think the smaller guys also need
to improve their opto-mechanics a bit.

So is there any disruptive technology out there? Most of the people
I talked to didn’t think so. One Nikon designer told me off the
record that he felt Canon has the lead in terms of intellectual
property. Canon typically files more optical patents than any
companies in the world. However as someone who uses advanced
optical technology similar to Canons for military applications, I
can tell you the cost point is not there yet! Thus we are likely to
see the differences between brands become more about good
marketing…sort of like refrigerators I suppose:-)
spiritdog is right. the last time i checked sigma has a licensing
agreement
with the major camera manufacturers i.e; canon , nikon etc. ,to build
lenses for them.
 

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