Separate Printer Forums?

Travis · Jul 4, 2001

Ultimately, it's up to Phil to decide whether to separate the printer forums. But certainly, we can discuss the issue in the mean time to highlight the advantages/disadvantages as well as present propositions on how it should be done.

First off, some preliminary comments. Since the time that I got involved with Mr. Terry Thorn in that sorry discussion where I finally gave everyone my word I would not reply to him ever again, I have disciplined myself not to respond to him or get involved in debate against people that obviously can't do so constructively. Now I find that he is continuing his crusade against Epson owners who even dare to post a reply in a thread started by a non-Epson owner. Just today, in fact, he questioned MY reply to Joe in the "S800 Printout Turn Red" thread. I simply stated that Canon has covered themselves well from liability - by modeling after Epson's advertising. My reason for replying was to concur with Joe that we really don't have a valid argument against Epson OR Canon anymore with this orange shift problem since Epson changed their advertising and Canon made sure to word theirs right as well with the introduction of the S800. There was nothing biased or off-topic in my reply, and yet Terry could not resist challenging me.

So why do I bring it up now? Well, the very fact that this is happening has encouraged many here to suggest that separating the printer forums may help in this regard. Personally, I don't care either way... If the forums are divided by printer brand, I will certainly visit each forum. There's no reason someone HAS to stay in the forum that reflects the printer he/she owns. At the same time, however, it could help by joining people together who have similar problems or comments about their brand of printer.

Although I don't see an ultimate solution to this problem coming from separating the forums, I see no problem with giving it a try. But the problem is in the behavior of PEOPLE. The people will still be the same, even if you attempt to organize the discussions. Many people who visit this forum, for example, are interested in various brands of printers. And even those who are happily printing with the printer of their choice like to know what's going on with other brands. Like many of us have said before, we would quite willingly switch to another brand of printer if we thought it would be the best FOR US. Only by keeping up with the developments/discussions with each brand can we remain knowledgable about our hobby.

If the forums did split, I'm sure Phil does not have the time (or patience) to babysit each one of them. So if we assume these problems will go away, I think we are being naive. Think of all the threads started in each digital camera forum that are duplicated and cross-discussed. Owners from other cameras frequently argue with those in the "majority" on that particular forum and visa-versa.

I see no reason to split the forums based on the volume of posts - there is a moderate level of discussion, but nothing overwhelming or even as close to many of the digical camera forums. From my understanding, that is the primary reason for having separate forums in the digitcal camera category. There are a large number of postings in each of those forums that would simply be overwhelming if kept together in one forum. But just because the volume doesn't support it does not mean this forum shouldn't be split. It may work out very well!

On the other hand, I have to ask those that are advocating the split a question: do you expect each person to post only in the forum that represents the brand of printer they own? And what about someone who is looking to buy a printer? They will certainly post the same question in each of the forums to look for answers. This could be a good thing because they could see opinions from each forum. But what about those of us who would like to contribute to each of the forums? Both Terry Thorn and I, for example, often reply to topics based on Canon, HP, and Epson printers because we have experience with each. Many other people do as well. I believe Terry owns both an HP and an Epson at this time. Which forum would he be expected to remain in? And if you don't expect him to remain in ONE forum, then you will still have the same people involved in discussions in each of the printer forums. And in that case, you would still have the same heated discussions that often result in "mindless bickering", right?

And so, it really does come down to PEOPLE. Each one of us is responsible for our own behavior. I made a choice a while back NOT to respond to Terry because I know what happens. We are both stubborn and concise in our replies. By not replying to him, I have averted getting involved in the mindless bickering since the time I made that decision.

In fact, my promise remains intact. And while Terry is sure to reply to this post, I will most certainly NOT reply to anything he says because I know what will happen. However, I will remain open and politely discuss this issue with anyone else who can also behave in the same way. I am not perfect and I have done my share of bickering on here. But I'm doing my best to stop it by ignoring those posts that I know will lead to it. And I feel I have been able to contribute politely and just as often to help others.

Thanks for your time,
Travis

Kui · Jul 4, 2001

Compare to Nikon forum, this forum is pretty slow.

I don't quite agree to separate forum because it's not very active forum and I love to see other discussion on other brands.

I've seen what's going on here between someone against someone.

I take only the suggestions, I never take anything personally.

and I believe, the readers will know - who is the good one, who is the bad or nasty one.

Thank you, Travis for suggesting many good things to us.

Kui

Terry Thorn · Jul 4, 2001

Travis said:
Ultimately, it's up to Phil to decide whether to separate the
printer forums. But certainly, we can discuss the issue in the
mean time to highlight the advantages/disadvantages as well as
present propositions on how it should be done.

First off, some preliminary comments. Since the time that I got
involved with Mr. Terry Thorn in that sorry discussion where I
finally gave everyone my word I would not reply to him ever again,
I have disciplined myself not to respond to him or get involved in
debate against people that obviously can't do so constructively.
Now I find that he is continuing his crusade against Epson owners
who even dare to post a reply in a thread started by a non-Epson
owner. Just today, in fact, he questioned MY reply to Joe in the
"S800 Printout Turn Red" thread. I simply stated that Canon has
covered themselves well from liability - by modeling after Epson's
advertising. My reason for replying was to concur with Joe that we
really don't have a valid argument against Epson OR Canon anymore
with this orange shift problem since Epson changed their
advertising and Canon made sure to word theirs right as well with
the introduction of the S800. There was nothing biased or
off-topic in my reply, and yet Terry could not resist challenging
me.

I get back from watching the fireworks and find you starting some up here. I would appreciate it if you'd at least be HONEST while you're bashing me. 1.) you were backing BOB'S argument up... not merely replying to Joe. It was a snotty comment. You didn't say ANYTHING about Canon modelling their advertising after Epson's. People can check this for themselves here:
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1003&page=1&message=1244364
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1003&page=1&message=1247705
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1003&page=1&message=1247788

No one forced you to get into this. That's why I "questioned" you... because you pledged to never again be "dragged" back into such discussions (as if you ever were). I got involved in the thread because I saw Bob throwing my name all about AGAIN. What's your excuse? You're not the victim you're making yourself out to be.

2.) It appears you're attempting to turn Epson users against me by portraying me as their enemy and I'm not. I'm an Epson user myself! I just don't feel the need to badmouth other printers or sell everyone on Epsons. It's wasn't me who felt the NEED to respond to a poster's suggestion that people should buy a Canon S800... you did. Why? As you WELL know, I've said that SOME Epson users habitually indulge in either mudslinging tactics against other brand printers or just feel the need to place sales

Member said:
So why do I bring it up now? Well, the very fact that this is
happening has encouraged many here to suggest that separating the
printer forums may help in this regard. Personally, I don't care
either way... If the forums are divided by printer brand, I will
certainly visit each forum. There's no reason someone HAS to stay
in the forum that reflects the printer he/she owns. At the same
time, however, it could help by joining people together who have
similar problems or comments about their brand of printer.

You don't care if there are separate forums? Then why the long drawn out monologue? You're quite correct in that no one HAS to stay in ONE forum. BUT, if some of these evangelists decide to do their thing in the other forums, they'll be exposed for what they are and most likely told where to get off because there, they'll be outnumbered. I feel people will get more constructive help in a separate forum where the other denizens have a common interest. What good is "Gee, my Epson doesn't have that problem" going to do a Canon user looking for helpful info?

Member said:
Although I don't see an ultimate solution to this problem coming
from separating the forums, I see no problem with giving it a try.
But the problem is in the behavior of PEOPLE. The people will
still be the same, even if you attempt to organize the discussions.
Many people who visit this forum, for example, are interested in
various brands of printers. And even those who are happily
printing with the printer of their choice like to know what's going
on with other brands. Like many of us have said before, we would
quite willingly switch to another brand of printer if we thought it
would be the best FOR US. Only by keeping up with the
developments/discussions with each brand can we remain knowledgable
about our hobby.

I still believe there'd be less bickering and more useful info provided by separating the forums. Like you said, there's no problem with giving it a try. Obviously, it can't be any worse.

Member said:
If the forums did split, I'm sure Phil does not have the time (or
patience) to babysit each one of them. So if we assume these
problems will go away, I think we are being naive. Think of all
the threads started in each digital camera forum that are
duplicated and cross-discussed. Owners from other cameras
frequently argue with those in the "majority" on that particular
forum and visa-versa.

But those people will be recognized as the troublemakers they are and dealt with.

Member said:
I see no reason to split the forums based on the volume of posts -
there is a moderate level of discussion, but nothing overwhelming
or even as close to many of the digical camera forums. From my
understanding, that is the primary reason for having separate
forums in the digitcal camera category. There are a large number
of postings in each of those forums that would simply be
overwhelming if kept together in one forum. But just because the
volume doesn't support it does not mean this forum shouldn't be
split. It may work out very well!

On the other hand, I have to ask those that are advocating the
split a question: do you expect each person to post only in the
forum that represents the brand of printer they own?

Nope... but it would cut down on the bickering.

Member said:
And what about someone who is looking to buy a printer? They will
certainly post the same question in each of the forums to look for
answers.

Yes and they will get information that they can cross check with the other brand's forum without having people arguing back and forth. Even if someone says something negative about Brand A in Brand B's forum, Brand A's evangelist likely won't see it and there won't be any bickering. But the inquirer can ask about that negative aspect in Brand A's forum and get THEIR side of the story and make a better informed decision when they check the printers themselves.

Member said:
This could be a good thing because they could see opinions from
each forum. But what about those of us who would like to
contribute to each of the forums? Both Terry Thorn and I, for
example, often reply to topics based on Canon, HP, and Epson
printers because we have experience with each. Many other people
do as well. I believe Terry owns both an HP and an Epson at this
time. Which forum would he be expected to remain in? And if you
don't expect him to remain in ONE forum, then you will still have
the same people involved in discussions in each of the printer
forums. And in that case, you would still have the same heated
discussions that often result in "mindless bickering", right?

Yes, we do both respond in topics based on HP, Canon, and Epson printers but only ONE of us responds positively in all three. The difference as I see it is the next time you try to portray the HP's photo prints having dots the size of golf balls in the HP forum, you'll be in the minority.

Member said:
And so, it really does come down to PEOPLE. Each one of us is
responsible for our own behavior. I made a choice a while back NOT
to respond to Terry because I know what happens. We are both
stubborn and concise in our replies. By not replying to him, I
have averted getting involved in the mindless bickering since the
time I made that decision.

In fact, my promise remains intact. And while Terry is sure to
reply to this post, I will most certainly NOT reply to anything he
says because I know what will happen. However, I will remain open
and politely discuss this issue with anyone else who can also
behave in the same way. I am not perfect and I have done my share
of bickering on here. But I'm doing my best to stop it by ignoring
those posts that I know will lead to it. And I feel I have been
able to contribute politely and just as often to help others.

Sure I'm going to reply... look how many times my name is littered throughout your monologue!

Member said:
Thanks for your time,
Travis

mr x · Jul 4, 2001

If everyone would start acting like adults instead of 1st graders in a food fight this forum would be better. Rather than avoid the actual problem and spit the forum, I say we ask the people posting to stop behaving like elementary kids playing a game of mine is better than yours.

Ive only been coming to this forum for a few weeks, and it seems that if you own a canon then you must work for them. If you own a Epson you must work for them, and same for HP. God forbid people actually own different printers and get a free choice in what they buy.

If you dont agree with somebodys choice of printers then so what? Dont bash them for it. That person isnt you, they may have different needs/demands from the printer than you so of course they may own a different brand.

-matt

Pasha · Jul 4, 2001

i have to admit, i LOVE this forum... in fact it's by far my favorite...

it reminds me a bit of the pre-fight speeches that the WWF guys make before going on stage... lotsa trash talk for no reason at all... very entertaining... would love to see these two guys fight it out in real life...

overall, i've been coming to dpreview for over two years now... this kind of behaviour has always existed here, but it's been getting worse and worse lately... it's to be expected as more and more users are joining the forums every day...

for some reason the "mine is better than yours" argument is going across all forums now... there's a huge thread of insults between the g1 and the sony owners... and the epson vs other insults have been flying forever... epson owners are very defensive about their printers... others always want to point out how good their printers are compared to Epsons... it will probably never end...

i own the Epson 870 since it's first day out (preordered), and recently picked up the Canon S800... i also got a HP1200 from a dying dotcom for $50... on top of that i own a Sony udp10... which forum would i go to if you split them up?

matt said:
If everyone would start acting like adults instead of 1st graders
in a food fight this forum would be better. Rather than avoid the
actual problem and spit the forum, I say we ask the people posting
to stop behaving like elementary kids playing a game of mine is
better than yours.

Ive only been coming to this forum for a few weeks, and it seems
that if you own a canon then you must work for them. If you own a
Epson you must work for them, and same for HP. God forbid people
actually own different printers and get a free choice in what they
buy.

If you dont agree with somebodys choice of printers then so what?
Dont bash them for it. That person isnt you, they may have
different needs/demands from the printer than you so of course they
may own a different brand.

-matt

Terry Thorn · Jul 5, 2001

Pasha said:
it reminds me a bit of the pre-fight speeches that the WWF guys
make before going on stage... lotsa trash talk for no reason at
all... very entertaining... would love to see these two guys fight
it out in real life...

overall, i've been coming to dpreview for over two years now...
this kind of behaviour has always existed here, but it's been
getting worse and worse lately... it's to be expected as more and
more users are joining the forums every day...

for some reason the "mine is better than yours" argument is going
across all forums now... there's a huge thread of insults between
the g1 and the sony owners... and the epson vs other insults have
been flying forever... epson owners are very defensive about their
printers... others always want to point out how good their printers
are compared to Epsons... it will probably never end...

i own the Epson 870 since it's first day out (preordered), and
recently picked up the Canon S800... i also got a HP1200 from a
dying dotcom for $50... on top of that i own a Sony udp10... which
forum would i go to if you split them up?

matt said:

If everyone would start acting like adults instead of 1st graders
in a food fight this forum would be better. Rather than avoid the
actual problem and spit the forum, I say we ask the people posting
to stop behaving like elementary kids playing a game of mine is
better than yours.

Ive only been coming to this forum for a few weeks, and it seems
that if you own a canon then you must work for them. If you own a
Epson you must work for them, and same for HP. God forbid people
actually own different printers and get a free choice in what they
buy.

If you dont agree with somebodys choice of printers then so what?
Dont bash them for it. That person isnt you, they may have
different needs/demands from the printer than you so of course they
may own a different brand.

-matt

Click to expand...

The point of the separate forums suggestion is not to lock people into one group but rather provide a place where people may feel more free to express themselves about their particular printer without fear of starting a flame war. Here, someone can't even recommend a non-Epson printer to others without someone immediately slinging mud at it or the poster's affiliations being questioned. With separate forums, maybe we'll see more information about other printers being made available. That way, I feel people who come here while shopping for a printer will get a better idea of what they can and cannot do and the purpose of this forum will be better served. I have an Olympus camera and when I want information about it, I go to the Olympus forum. Sometimes, I see where I can answer a question someone asks so I can contribute something to the forum while I'm receiving benefit from it. If I'm shopping around for a camera and I want to find out something about a Sony camera, I'll go to the Sony forum and check it out. If I want to find out how it compares to an Olympus, I'll ask the same question on the Sony and Olympus forums. Most likely there'll be people there who've also considered both cameras at one time and they'll give the reasons what they liked about their particular camera over the other and the key points of what they didn't like about the other. Maybe they'll even throw dirt at the other camera but I know where they're coming from because they wouldn't be in that forum if they weren't enthusiastic about that brand so I know to take that info with a grain of salt. Here, you never really know where some people are coming from because this is supposed to be an open forum. I feel people would get more information to work with and avoid a lot of arguing in the process with separate forums.

Bob Meyer · Jul 5, 2001

Splitting up the forums won't solve anything, IMHO. In fact, it will probably make it worse, as anyone who isn't a "Brand X" owner and ventures into the "Brand X" forum will be branded as an outsider. And if you dare to question the accepted orthodoxy, you'll be branded as a troublemaker, agitator, or worse.

As for the attacks by some members against others, there's not much you can do about that either. Defending yourself becomes a waste of time. The best way to handle it is to post what you think, and justify it. Most list members will form their opinions based on what you say, not on what other's say about you.

One particular list member (I'm not even going to mention names anymore), seems to fell that if a question is raised about any specific brand of printer, only that brand should be discussed in the thread. A mention of any other brand, in any context, is an attemp to proselitize, in his opinion.

I can't even begin to describe how absurd I think that position is. We can all learn a great deal from a discussion and comparison of multiple printers, especially when the same kinds of problems relate to them all.

I'll state my opinions when I think I have something useful to add, and I'll add my knowledge of things I'm knowledgeable about. People are free to browse my web site and decide for themselves if I'm right. Then can compare my experimentally derived information to other peoples opinions and experimental evidence (if they have any), and make up their own minds. If they decide to ignore what I've done, I frankly don't give a flying . It's not my problem.

bob m

greg · Jul 5, 2001

Travis said:
Ultimately, it's up to Phil to decide whether to separate the
printer forums. But certainly, we can discuss the issue in the
mean time to highlight the advantages/disadvantages as well as
present propositions on how it should be done.

First off, some preliminary comments. Since the time that I got
involved with Mr. Terry Thorn in that sorry discussion where I
finally gave everyone my word I would not reply to him ever again,
I have disciplined myself not to respond to him or get involved in
debate against people that obviously can't do so constructively.
Now I find that he is continuing his crusade against Epson owners
who even dare to post a reply in a thread started by a non-Epson
owner. Just today, in fact, he questioned MY reply to Joe in the
"S800 Printout Turn Red" thread. I simply stated that Canon has
covered themselves well from liability - by modeling after Epson's
advertising. My reason for replying was to concur with Joe that we
really don't have a valid argument against Epson OR Canon anymore
with this orange shift problem since Epson changed their
advertising and Canon made sure to word theirs right as well with
the introduction of the S800. There was nothing biased or
off-topic in my reply, and yet Terry could not resist challenging
me.

So why do I bring it up now? Well, the very fact that this is
happening has encouraged many here to suggest that separating the
printer forums may help in this regard. Personally, I don't care
either way... If the forums are divided by printer brand, I will
certainly visit each forum. There's no reason someone HAS to stay
in the forum that reflects the printer he/she owns. At the same
time, however, it could help by joining people together who have
similar problems or comments about their brand of printer.

Although I don't see an ultimate solution to this problem coming
from separating the forums, I see no problem with giving it a try.
But the problem is in the behavior of PEOPLE. The people will
still be the same, even if you attempt to organize the discussions.
Many people who visit this forum, for example, are interested in
various brands of printers. And even those who are happily
printing with the printer of their choice like to know what's going
on with other brands. Like many of us have said before, we would
quite willingly switch to another brand of printer if we thought it
would be the best FOR US. Only by keeping up with the
developments/discussions with each brand can we remain knowledgable
about our hobby.

If the forums did split, I'm sure Phil does not have the time (or
patience) to babysit each one of them. So if we assume these
problems will go away, I think we are being naive. Think of all
the threads started in each digital camera forum that are
duplicated and cross-discussed. Owners from other cameras
frequently argue with those in the "majority" on that particular
forum and visa-versa.

I see no reason to split the forums based on the volume of posts -
there is a moderate level of discussion, but nothing overwhelming
or even as close to many of the digical camera forums. From my
understanding, that is the primary reason for having separate
forums in the digitcal camera category. There are a large number
of postings in each of those forums that would simply be
overwhelming if kept together in one forum. But just because the
volume doesn't support it does not mean this forum shouldn't be
split. It may work out very well!

On the other hand, I have to ask those that are advocating the
split a question: do you expect each person to post only in the
forum that represents the brand of printer they own? And what
about someone who is looking to buy a printer? They will certainly
post the same question in each of the forums to look for answers.
This could be a good thing because they could see opinions from
each forum. But what about those of us who would like to
contribute to each of the forums? Both Terry Thorn and I, for
example, often reply to topics based on Canon, HP, and Epson
printers because we have experience with each. Many other people
do as well. I believe Terry owns both an HP and an Epson at this
time. Which forum would he be expected to remain in? And if you
don't expect him to remain in ONE forum, then you will still have
the same people involved in discussions in each of the printer
forums. And in that case, you would still have the same heated
discussions that often result in "mindless bickering", right?

And so, it really does come down to PEOPLE. Each one of us is
responsible for our own behavior. I made a choice a while back NOT
to respond to Terry because I know what happens. We are both
stubborn and concise in our replies. By not replying to him, I
have averted getting involved in the mindless bickering since the
time I made that decision.

In fact, my promise remains intact. And while Terry is sure to
reply to this post, I will most certainly NOT reply to anything he
says because I know what will happen. However, I will remain open
and politely discuss this issue with anyone else who can also
behave in the same way. I am not perfect and I have done my share
of bickering on here. But I'm doing my best to stop it by ignoring
those posts that I know will lead to it. And I feel I have been
able to contribute politely and just as often to help others.

Thanks for your time,
Travis

Terry,

It is so ironic how other people found out what I have been saying all along about you. All you care about is making arguments and prolonging fights. I told the forum this for months and now others have seen the light. I barely post up here, although I read all I can to learn from everyone. I got sick of the garbage you post. You however teach me how not to be!
greg

Terry Thorn · Jul 5, 2001

bob m said:
Splitting up the forums won't solve anything, IMHO. In fact, it
will probably make it worse, as anyone who isn't a "Brand X" owner
and ventures into the "Brand X" forum will be branded as an
outsider. And if you dare to question the accepted orthodoxy,
you'll be branded as a troublemaker, agitator, or worse.

And most likely it'll be true. Most of the problems here stem from the fact some people can't accept that someone may like another printer over THEIR favorite brand and will keep slamming the other person's printer. You couldn't even accept the fact that I don't take ANY magazine reviews as Gospel. Because of that, you accused me of being partial to Canon printers. So what if I was? Big deal! Why should YOU care what I like? From THAT point on, you "branded" me as a Canon loyalist and/or Epson hater and have treated me with contempt.

Bob Meyer said:
As for the attacks by some members against others, there's not much
you can do about that either. Defending yourself becomes a waste
of time. The best way to handle it is to post what you think, and
justify it. Most list members will form their opinions based on
what you say, not on what other's say about you.

One particular list member (I'm not even going to mention names
anymore), seems to fell that if a question is raised about any
specific brand of printer, only that brand should be discussed in
the thread. A mention of any other brand, in any context, is an
attemp to proselitize, in his opinion.

You're obscuring the facts again, Bob. What I said is that it's hard for people to get help with or information about a non-Epson printer because certain people (who happen to own an Epson printer) feel the need to try and SELL Epsons on them. If I felt the way you say I do, I wouldn't be posting in the HP or Canon forums. I have HELPED or attempted to HELP people with problems no matter WHICH printer they have. But I'm not going to push my choice of printer on them nor am I going to mention it at every opportunity. I feel that this forum has become more of a sales vehicle than a source of helpful information.

Bob Meyer said:
I can't even begin to describe how absurd I think that position is.
We can all learn a great deal from a discussion and comparison of
multiple printers, especially when the same kinds of problems
relate to them all.

Yes we COULD but often it turns into an argument. This is because some people who have had little or no hands-on experience with another brand printer feel they're expert enough to recount it's problems and get very defensive when contradicted. The argument starts turning into personal attacks and anything we COULD have learned is down the tubes.

Bob Meyer said:
I'll state my opinions when I think I have something useful to add,
and I'll add my knowledge of things I'm knowledgeable about.
People are free to browse my web site and decide for themselves if
I'm right. Then can compare my experimentally derived information
to other peoples opinions and experimental evidence (if they have
any), and make up their own minds. If they decide to ignore what
I've done, I frankly don't give a flying . It's not my
problem.

bob m

That's a very good attitude to have IF you can truly stick to it. I've often recommended one printer or another and then have someone buy another brand. It's not a big deal to me at all. I don't have a stake in it nor do I get paid for offering my advice. I look at it like this, I make money no matter WHICH printer they buy because, most likely, I produced the plastic it's made with. :-D

rick46073 · Jul 5, 2001

hi,

i'm new to the 'printers forum', and so, have not been involved in the disputes that have been going on here - nor do i have any special attachment to any brand of printer. i found this forum to be extremely helpful in helping me to decide which photo printer to purchase. i don't think splitting the forum would really solve anything as individuals, so inlcined, would simply 'cross fourms' to continue abusive behaviour - it happens a lot on the camera forums already.

for example, someone buys camera 'x' - doesn't like it, sells or returns it, then, instead of simply informing others of the problems he had, or why he didn't like it, he starts to trash the manufacturer, again and again - all this after he has gone on to a new camera. wierd!!! i suggest we all ignore abusive posts - period!! pretend they don't exist! it's perfectly o.k. to point out bad products, problems etc. just try and do it without the abuse. we all need to hear about defects etc. in any product.

yesterday, i purchased an hp932c, in canada, for $130US. after a simple usb install and printing some images i can say i am extremely happy with the terrific results. my printed pics look fantastic and compare extremely well with lab photos of the same images.

it was a tough choice between the hp932c and the epson 870 or 780. initially, i was leaning towards the epson 870. in the end though, the information i obtained on this forum about epson's 'orange shift' problem and 'nozzle clogging' left me more comfortable with the hp932c. to me, the hp932c just seemed a more reliable choice and i couldn't really distinguish that much differnce in the samples i saw from both printers. despite my decision, i know the epson is a great printer, and the odds are i probably might have not been effected by any problems.

for me, this forum functioned the way it was supposed to - it provided enough info for me to make a decision that i am extremely happy with. is epson better than hp - or vice/versa? i don't know, and right now i don't care and probably won't until it comes time to buy a new printer. then, hopefully, this forum will still be around and i can again check it out to see what's up before deciding to buy - maybe an epson next time!

rick

Terry Thorn · Jul 5, 2001

greg said:
Terry,
It is so ironic how other people found out what I have been saying
all along about you. All you care about is making arguments and
prolonging fights. I told the forum this for months and now others
have seen the light. I barely post up here, although I read all I
can to learn from everyone. I got sick of the garbage you post. You
however teach me how not to be!
greg

When I first came onto this forum, I found you fighting with a bunch of people and it went like that for a long, long time. You were so intent on selling people on Epson printers that you even created another persona (Shawn) and talked "him" into buying an Epson. I was amazed that ANYONE would be THAT fanatic about a printer and shows a complete lack of integrity. Now, with separate forums, someone like you would be exposed more quickly and dealt with.

Travis · Jul 5, 2001

rick46073 said:
for me, this forum functioned the way it was supposed to - it
provided enough info for me to make a decision that i am extremely
happy with. is epson better than hp - or vice/versa? i don't
know, and right now i don't care and probably won't until it comes
time to buy a new printer. then, hopefully, this forum will still
be around and i can again check it out to see what's up before
deciding to buy - maybe an epson next time!
rick

Rick, it's great to hear comments

Terry Thorn · Jul 5, 2001

rick said:
hi,

i'm new to the 'printers forum', and so, have not been involved in
the disputes that have been going on here - nor do i have any
special attachment to any brand of printer. i found this forum to
be extremely helpful in helping me to decide which photo printer to
purchase. i don't think splitting the forum would really solve
anything as individuals, so inlcined, would simply 'cross fourms'
to continue abusive behaviour - it happens a lot on the camera
forums already.

for example, someone buys camera 'x' - doesn't like it, sells or
returns it, then, instead of simply informing others of the
problems he had, or why he didn't like it, he starts to trash the
manufacturer, again and again - all this after he has gone on to a
new camera. wierd!!! i suggest we all ignore abusive posts -
period!! pretend they don't exist! it's perfectly o.k. to point
out bad products, problems etc. just try and do it without the
abuse. we all need to hear about defects etc. in any product.

I know where you're coming from as I've seen the same thing happen here. But the problem with posting defects or malfunctions here is that some people are quite fanatic about their machine and will argue it down if they can or, as often happens here, they will attack that person's credibility or character and/or insult them. I would hope that separate forums would alleviate that or at least help identify those people. As you say, it probably won't disappear but it MIGHT reduce it enough to where people CAN speak their minds.

rick46073 said:
yesterday, i purchased an hp932c, in canada, for $130US. after a
simple usb install and printing some images i can say i am
extremely happy with the terrific results. my printed pics look
fantastic and compare extremely well with lab photos of the same
images.

it was a tough choice between the hp932c and the epson 870 or 780.
initially, i was leaning towards the epson 870. in the end though,
the information i obtained on this forum about epson's 'orange
shift' problem and 'nozzle clogging' left me more comfortable with
the hp932c. to me, the hp932c just seemed a more reliable choice
and i couldn't really distinguish that much differnce in the
samples i saw from both printers. despite my decision, i know the
epson is a great printer, and the odds are i probably might have
not been effected by any problems.

Congratulations on a fine choice. You've got a great all-around printer there and I hope it gives you many years of great service. I remember taking photos that I'd made on my 932c out to work and it so impressed one guy in particular that he went out and bought a digital camera. The bad thing was that he didn't even have a computer at the time so he bought one of those too. To say he was impressed would be an understatement. Have you tried out the PhotoSmart software which came on your driver disk yet? I use that program CONSTANTLY. Also, the paper I found which works the best with that printer is the HP Premium Plus Matte. I now have an HP 970Cse which has the auto-duplexer on it and it's great to have if you print a lot of double-sided documents (not photos). I use it for brochures and such. You can add it to your 932c and it costs about $80 at retail stores but you can probably find it for less online.

rick46073 said:
for me, this forum functioned the way it was supposed to - it
provided enough info for me to make a decision that i am extremely
happy with. is epson better than hp - or vice/versa? i don't
know, and right now i don't care and probably won't until it comes
time to buy a new printer. then, hopefully, this forum will still
be around and i can again check it out to see what's up before
deciding to buy - maybe an epson next time!

rick

Travis · Jul 5, 2001

Member said:
Rick, it's great to hear comments

OOPS! Well it IS great to hear comments, but I clicked "post" by accident before finishing. What I meant to say was:

Rick, it's great to hear comments from those that are new here. I'm glad you found the forum useful despite the abundance of bickering. And although I'm not immune to it either, I think you'll find that the vast majority of people on here would not criticize someone for buying/owning a particular brand of printer.

I also found this forum quite informative when I first began visiting it and the same sort or argumentation was going when I first joined (some of the same people, actually).

Anyway, enjoy your HP printer! If you have the time, stick around and maybe you can offer help to other new members who have questions!

Travis

alistaircleo · Jul 5, 2001

The message pollution that I've seen may in part be due to a "my printer is the best" attitude, but really it's more due to personal arguments and the mistaken belief of the posters that forum readers in general really care THAT much that their personal honor has been sullied. I totally understand why someone would want to defend themselves in a few follow-up postings, but after a few postings, NO ONE ELSE CARES!!!!! When it reaches that point, it's just a matter of the posters' egos because the "discussion" has regressed into an argument between two or three people. The first few rounds of debate may be in the broader interests of the forum, but after that, the posters are deluding themselves if they still believe it because their audience is only themselves.

Jimmer · Jul 5, 2001

I'm relatively new here and despite some of the bickering that goes on, I have found this to be a wonderful source of information about all brands of printers.

I would not like to see the forum split up.

For the record, I struggled myself with a decision between the HP 932 and the Epson 785. For a variety of reasons I decided to go with the Epson, but that doesn't mean that I don't think that the HP is a great printer.

At this point, I'd like to thank everyone who provides useful information.

…. Jim

Terry Thorn · Jul 5, 2001

Jimmer said:
I'm relatively new here and despite some of the bickering that goes
on, I have found this to be a wonderful source of information about
all brands of printers.

I would not like to see the forum split up.

For the record, I struggled myself with a decision between the HP
932 and the Epson 785. For a variety of reasons I decided to go
with the Epson, but that doesn't mean that I don't think that the
HP is a great printer.

At this point, I'd like to thank everyone who provides useful
information.

…. Jim

Did you get the little preview monitor for yours? I wanted to see one but none of the demo machines I've seen had one. I'd like to see how well that works as a standalone system because I know a couple of people that might benefit as they're not very computer savvy.

JohnL · Jul 5, 2001

Frankly I think it is the relatively impoverished attitude to ink jet printers that is the issue.

Good reviews are based on statistics, metrics and subjective observations.
Just look for example at the wonderful camera reviews that Phil produces.

I have not seen a single printer review that comes anywhere near to that standard.

First the metrics. Printers that do not do full bleed and Epsons at full resolution, where are the margin measurements and do they change with paper size.

and so on.

For metrics as anyone seem Dmax actually measured, what does the gradation from white point to black point look like is it smooth all the way (measured by a densitometer).

What is the result with various colors, can the printer product fully saturated colors at intermediate values. Not a guess measure the results.

What is the actual optimum resultion to present to the printer so that there is enough resolution left over for halftone to work and which printers do there own interpolation to defeat the intentions of the user.

We see comments that the highest resolution shows no improvement. What is likely is that the subjective choice of material did not show it. If the metrics were being done, instead the reviewer would be stating the circumstances in which the highest resolution did have an effect.

Ink use in an important cost parameter. Where are the repeatable measurements to give a useful repeatable number that will allow comparisons. Very occasionally I have seen it for text, and how much does it change with paper type. These are all measurable.

What is the real differnce between 4 color and 6 color printers "trust me 6 looks better does not cut it"... measure it with a densitometer!!

If we continue like this without metrics not only will there be silly arguments in this forum, there will be no feedback for the manufacturers to improve.

In the lens reviews MTM and so on get measured in the camera reviews similarly.

I am not saying that metrics alone are important, but the methodology of properly going through the statistics and metrics form a backdrop against which the reviewer can then look at the subjective issues and form an opinion results in a quality that is consistent over time Phil's camera reviews have that quality.

Neither the PC mag nor the Photography mag folks are stepping up to the need the reviews are poor and this forum can descent into "trust me brand x is the only way to go".

We all know that this is not ture and that this will not lead to product improvement.

Some but not all these comments apply to sublimation as well.

Until, we can raise the standard we are using to comment on photographic printers this will continue and separating the group will not really solve the issue.

....John

Travis said:
Ultimately, it's up to Phil to decide whether to separate the
printer forums. But certainly, we can discuss the issue in the
mean time to highlight the advantages/disadvantages as well as
present propositions on how it should be done.

First off, some preliminary comments. Since the time that I got
involved with Mr. Terry Thorn in that sorry discussion where I
finally gave everyone my word I would not reply to him ever again,
I have disciplined myself not to respond to him or get involved in
debate against people that obviously can't do so constructively.
Now I find that he is continuing his crusade against Epson owners
who even dare to post a reply in a thread started by a non-Epson
owner. Just today, in fact, he questioned MY reply to Joe in the
"S800 Printout Turn Red" thread. I simply stated that Canon has
covered themselves well from liability - by modeling after Epson's
advertising. My reason for replying was to concur with Joe that we
really don't have a valid argument against Epson OR Canon anymore
with this orange shift problem since Epson changed their
advertising and Canon made sure to word theirs right as well with
the introduction of the S800. There was nothing biased or
off-topic in my reply, and yet Terry could not resist challenging
me.

So why do I bring it up now? Well, the very fact that this is
happening has encouraged many here to suggest that separating the
printer forums may help in this regard. Personally, I don't care
either way... If the forums are divided by printer brand, I will
certainly visit each forum. There's no reason someone HAS to stay
in the forum that reflects the printer he/she owns. At the same
time, however, it could help by joining people together who have
similar problems or comments about their brand of printer.

Although I don't see an ultimate solution to this problem coming
from separating the forums, I see no problem with giving it a try.
But the problem is in the behavior of PEOPLE. The people will
still be the same, even if you attempt to organize the discussions.
Many people who visit this forum, for example, are interested in
various brands of printers. And even those who are happily
printing with the printer of their choice like to know what's going
on with other brands. Like many of us have said before, we would
quite willingly switch to another brand of printer if we thought it
would be the best FOR US. Only by keeping up with the
developments/discussions with each brand can we remain knowledgable
about our hobby.

If the forums did split, I'm sure Phil does not have the time (or
patience) to babysit each one of them. So if we assume these
problems will go away, I think we are being naive. Think of all
the threads started in each digital camera forum that are
duplicated and cross-discussed. Owners from other cameras
frequently argue with those in the "majority" on that particular
forum and visa-versa.

I see no reason to split the forums based on the volume of posts -
there is a moderate level of discussion, but nothing overwhelming
or even as close to many of the digical camera forums. From my
understanding, that is the primary reason for having separate
forums in the digitcal camera category. There are a large number
of postings in each of those forums that would simply be
overwhelming if kept together in one forum. But just because the
volume doesn't support it does not mean this forum shouldn't be
split. It may work out very well!

On the other hand, I have to ask those that are advocating the
split a question: do you expect each person to post only in the
forum that represents the brand of printer they own? And what
about someone who is looking to buy a printer? They will certainly
post the same question in each of the forums to look for answers.
This could be a good thing because they could see opinions from
each forum. But what about those of us who would like to
contribute to each of the forums? Both Terry Thorn and I, for
example, often reply to topics based on Canon, HP, and Epson
printers because we have experience with each. Many other people
do as well. I believe Terry owns both an HP and an Epson at this
time. Which forum would he be expected to remain in? And if you
don't expect him to remain in ONE forum, then you will still have
the same people involved in discussions in each of the printer
forums. And in that case, you would still have the same heated
discussions that often result in "mindless bickering", right?

And so, it really does come down to PEOPLE. Each one of us is
responsible for our own behavior. I made a choice a while back NOT
to respond to Terry because I know what happens. We are both
stubborn and concise in our replies. By not replying to him, I
have averted getting involved in the mindless bickering since the
time I made that decision.

In fact, my promise remains intact. And while Terry is sure to
reply to this post, I will most certainly NOT reply to anything he
says because I know what will happen. However, I will remain open
and politely discuss this issue with anyone else who can also
behave in the same way. I am not perfect and I have done my share
of bickering on here. But I'm doing my best to stop it by ignoring
those posts that I know will lead to it. And I feel I have been
able to contribute politely and just as often to help others.

Thanks for your time,
Travis

alistaircleo · Jul 5, 2001

I should add that I always learn a great deal from this printer forum. I really like that I can keep up with printers of all brands at one site, and the user interface for dpreview.com is the best! And often times I learn the most from the same people who get involved in the more emotional and less printer-related arguments. This is understandable given that these people are the ones who are most "into" the subject and take pride in their credibility. So anyway, I hope those people continue to share their helpful knowledge in this forum.

Chris · Jul 5, 2001

Travis wrote:

I must say that I would not want to see this forum split up. I don't think it will help, it might even get worse. Each of the 'big' names is trying to find a place within the printing market, and that makes comparing the brands a very tricky business. There're a lot of facts to bring to the equasion, and quite a few people have more than one printer, so I feel that it would be a waste not to keep that knowledge together.

It might help to have somebody moderate this forum, or we could all agree upon a charter, but that will require co-operation. My opion is that a lot of it boils down to respecting someone else's opion and seperating fact from opion. Of course, if the subject triggers a passionate response this is hard to do, but we can all apologise if things become to hot to handle?

I'm here to help and learn, and if somebody feels that not being here is preferable to staying I think the forum as a whole has failed. I just ignore any posting that becomes personal, or is clearly baiting such a response. I live in Holland, and have to pay by the minute for this wonderfull internet experience, and prefer to spend it on something else than the latest installment of 'printing-soap'.

And for those that wonder, I own two of the biggies and like both. I have my reasons for using them both, and for choosing the setup I did. If you want to know, ask.

Chris.

PS. Nobody or everybody is targeted by this post, but not somebody

Separate Printer Forums?

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