Decisions-E1 or 20D

Greetings all,

I'll apologize if this has been asked and answered already, but I didn't have much success with a search (and I'm not one of those terribly patient people-that's why I love digital photography so much; instant gratification). As I've said in other posts, I've always been a loyal Nikon follower (35mm) until I "went digital" and purchased my Olympus E10. It is, without a doubt, my favorite camera. It's time to upgrade, and I'm pretty much set on an E1. But with all the favorable press, reviews, opinions, etc. I've read about the Canon 20D, I feel it merits at least some consideration. Nikon isn't in the running anymore (the D70's really nice, but I like the E1 ALOT more, the D2H is FAST and would probably be interesting to evaluate in Freudian terms, but I'm not impressed with the images it produces and I can't afford a D2X), so in my $1500-$2500 price range-preferably on the lower end-it's down to the E1 and 20D.

I'm obviously starting from "scratch" with a new system either way, so existing equipment isn't a consideration. I also understand this is an Olympus forum, but I'm probably as partial to Olympus digitals as most of you are. Plus, I figure folks on the Olympus forum will offer honest criticisims of the Canon as opposed to those who are "brand loyal" to Canon. Long story short, which should I buy-and why (as far as the 8mp issue-I'm not considering the Evolt--just not hot on the design; not a "dig", just personal preference)? Thanks in advance for your replies.

What are you going to shoot (in what conditions)? How large are you going to print?

--
dgrogers

http://www.pbase.com/drog

dgrogers said:

What are you going to shoot (in what conditions)? How large are
you going to print?

--
dgrogers

http://www.pbase.com/drog

Click to expand...

I guess the shortest answer would be "name it". It pretty much runs the gamut. Pics of the kids, weddings and freelance news (on "the side"-Police Officer by trade), nature (decided to hunt/shoot deer with a camera instead of a gun or bow years ago-but most of that is "up close" so "big" glass isn't really an issue), sports (ranging from my oldest son's basketball games to car/motorcycle racing), etc. When it comes to the "high speed" subjects, I'm not worrying about putting food on the table with my shots. Most of my prints are 8X10 or less, unless I end up with something exceptional or have a wedding shot the customer wants enlarged. In both cases, it's off for professional processing/printing. Otherwise, all my printing is done in my livingroom on a printer with a maximum capacity of 8X10.

Photography always comes down to the lenses. The camera body is just a light-tight box designed to capture what the lens sees.

I left Canon to acquire Olympus digital and the E-1. I studied both systems closely for 15 months, even gaining use of a Canon 10D for an extended period. I used my own EF-L zooms. Nothing my Canon optics offered compares to the Olympus lenses. And with my Olympus lenses I get a fantastic light-tight box on which to mount them!

So, you can buy the Canon 20D body or the Olympus Digital Zuiko lenses. You know what I think.

--
Cheers,

Jim Pilcher
Colorado Rocky Mountains, USA

'I have not failed. I've merely discovered 10,000 approaches that do not work.' -- paraphrased from Thomas Edison

If you like the E-10 you will love the E-1. You will be guaranteed pictures in focus (canon cannot claim that all the time) and with the new firmware 1.4 the camera is really awsome.

apdb90 said:

dgrogers said:

What are you going to shoot (in what conditions)? How large are
you going to print?

--
dgrogers

http://www.pbase.com/drog

Click to expand...

I guess the shortest answer would be "name it". It pretty much
runs the gamut. Pics of the kids, weddings and freelance news (on
"the side"-Police Officer by trade), nature (decided to hunt/shoot
deer with a camera instead of a gun or bow years ago-but most of
that is "up close" so "big" glass isn't really an issue), sports
(ranging from my oldest son's basketball games to car/motorcycle
racing), etc. When it comes to the "high speed" subjects, I'm not
worrying about putting food on the table with my shots. Most of my
prints are 8X10 or less, unless I end up with something exceptional
or have a wedding shot the customer wants enlarged. In both cases,
it's off for professional processing/printing. Otherwise, all my
printing is done in my livingroom on a printer with a maximum
capacity of 8X10.

Click to expand...

--

Check out my Olympus E-1 photos:
http://www.pbase.com/hordur

Hello,

I had a nearly similar decissionprocess the last weeks. In my term it was a bit more complicated because I had a Canon EOS 300d with a lot of glass. 20D was also an option to upgrade.

There where a few key-points that let me went to the E1:

• very good standardzoom, very good lenses
• with the E1 I can be sure not to be a victim of bad focussing, especelly in the future
• superb ergonomics of the E1
• dust- and rainproof
• no more dust-problems with the sensor
• I never ever had liked canon ;-) (in the long analog past I was a passioned Minolta-user)
• real silent shutter-sound (the 20D is awfull loud). Especielly if you do fotos in holy atmospheres, every DB less is here a pleasure.

There a pros and cons but for me I think the whole package of the E1 is the better one.

Now I have the E1 with the 14-54 and the 50-200, FL36 and the EX25. I don't argue. It is real pleasure to work with. A dream is the flash-exposure, if you flash indirectly you nearly don't see that a flash have been used. Much better than my eos 300d

Greetings
Daniel

I was going to be more specific (ie long winded), but rather than do that, I suggest that you go and hold each camera and, without any guidance regarding the camera from a salesman or anyone else, take some photos and see which one feels better to you.

Go home and 'develop' your images and determine which one meets your needs.

The overall quality of either is not that greatly different, but the major difference is whether the camera in your hand is going to make you 'want' to go out and take photos.

Cheers

Ray

apdb90 said:

Greetings all,
I'll apologize if this has been asked and answered already, but I
didn't have much success with a search (and I'm not one of those
terribly patient people-that's why I love digital photography so
much; instant gratification). As I've said in other posts, I've
always been a loyal Nikon follower (35mm) until I "went digital"
and purchased my Olympus E10. It is, without a doubt, my favorite
camera. It's time to upgrade, and I'm pretty much set on an E1.
But with all the favorable press, reviews, opinions, etc. I've read
about the Canon 20D, I feel it merits at least some consideration.
Nikon isn't in the running anymore (the D70's really nice, but I
like the E1 ALOT more, the D2H is FAST and would probably be
interesting to evaluate in Freudian terms, but I'm not impressed
with the images it produces and I can't afford a D2X), so in my
$1500-$2500 price range-preferably on the lower end-it's down to
the E1 and 20D.
I'm obviously starting from "scratch" with a new system either way,
so existing equipment isn't a consideration. I also understand
this is an Olympus forum, but I'm probably as partial to Olympus
digitals as most of you are. Plus, I figure folks on the Olympus
forum will offer honest criticisims of the Canon as opposed to
those who are "brand loyal" to Canon. Long story short, which
should I buy-and why (as far as the 8mp issue-I'm not considering
the Evolt--just not hot on the design; not a "dig", just personal
preference)? Thanks in advance for your replies.

Click to expand...

--
There are no limits, only challenges - me (unless someone else said it first).

Photography is like a good book, you become absorbed by the image, not the syntax and sentence structure - me (unless someone said this first as well).

http://www.rkp.com.au/AustralianImage/

Thank you all for your ideas and opinions. My decision was already made about what "light box" (I love that by the way--really puts things in perspective!) felt best. The E1 is incredible. I absolutely LOVE the feel of my E10, and the E1 vastly improved on what, in my eyes, was the perfect feel. I have a fairly extensive background in 35mm, but with the exception of this E10, and a point and shoot or two, have limited experience with digital. And ALL my experience, with the exception of this E10 and those point and shoot's, is with Nikon. So other than a brand I'm not even considering, and a brand I am-my only experience with their glass being a fixed lens-I'm starting from scratch. "Scratch" from both a knowlege/experience standpoint and in building a new system. As I said, I WANT the E1, but didn't want to dismiss the 20D yet, given my lack of experience with Canon products, and the great reviews it receives. Your replies answered my questions, and JUST ABOUT made up my mind. Off to the local "Light Box" emporium over the next day or two to follow up on the suggestion of shooting both for the final decision. Now that #%(#$@) income tax return check has to show up!!!!!!!

OzRay said:

take some photos and see which one feels better to you.

Go home and 'develop' your images and determine which one meets
your needs.

The overall quality of either is not that greatly different, but
the major difference is whether the camera in your hand is going to
make you 'want' to go out and take photos.

Click to expand...

This is verry important! There are features on cameras that can drive you mad! For me it's the sound of Canon 20D shutter. Or the fackt that the CF card door isn't locked.

It's like when you date(or used to); some girls you like alot, but it still doesn't feel quite right...

Jonas

The 20D strobes the pop-up flash as an AF assist lamp. To me that would be a non-starter. Imagine wedding guests annoyed by a strobing flash in the face for hours on end.....

Regards,
Scott

--
As we celebrate mediocrity all the boys upstairs want to see
How much you'll pay for what you used to get for free

• Tom Petty

Daniel, Ray and Jonas are absolutely right.

Go out to a local store and hold any camera you think fits your budget and taste, try the feel in your hands - this is very important. No matter what the specs say, trying in your hands the cameras/lens combos that interest you and the feel that you get should be the final criterion.

The difference in picture quality between 5-8Mpx cameras is not much anyway and on top of that it cannot be easily observed by human eye unless you make large prints.

Jim Pilcher's point is also true - photography is all about taking pictures. It's no good to spend money on gear if you cannot have the gear with you when the moment to capture something comes up. Mobility is the key. The gear has to be as good as possible but technically it should also be as light as possible. If, for example, you like street shooting, it is an advantage to have gear that will not stand out and make you a target.

Like Jim, Daniel and yourself, I have been on the decision-making process during the last 2-3 months regarding purchasing a new/used digital SLR plus new/additional glass. I have Canon analogue gear (Elan IIe) combined with 28-135 IS and 20/2.8 - so the logical step to follow would be to further invest in Canon.

However, after a careful look at the Olympus E-system from a number of different viewpoints and based on various criteria (not just tech parameters), it appears to be a very smart system to follow and invest on.

I need something fairly light, something that I can take with me in as many occasions as possible, something that will not make me stand out in the crowd (you can't have that with a Canon 1D series and EF 70-200/2.8 IS, can you?).

The Olympus 11-22 / 50-200 is a great combo in terms of quality of glass but also in terms of weight that we would have to carry around. If somebody does not want to fill the gap in between these two lenses with the 14-54 (although everybody says it's a perfectly fine lens), pretty soon Olympus will be releasing more glass (primes and or zooms) of same or even superior quality in this range. The E-1 with the new firmware update is a very good camera - do not forget that they are building this system up from scratch and for a first model Oly pro dSLR this camera delivers what it promises and gets the basic things right first time. Furthermore, the E-300 is a revolutionary camera. All that shows a lot about Olympus and the way they have decided to design and market their products for the consumers in the dSLR field.

Think of what Canon users went through by buying D30/D60/etc. until Canon decided to deliver some descent semi-pro/pro camera models like 20D/1DMkII. I work very hard to earn the money I do and do not intent to go through the process of buying a new camera and after 1 yr having to replace it (with a new model that has come out) because its AF works slowly or because it cannot focus properly in low-light or because the battery holder/grip does not function properly all the time or even because I do not know what focal length crop factor the next model will have so that I can choose to buy the most suitable lenses. Surely technology changes rapidly and we will all have to upgrade our equipment sooner or later but playing the marketing game without thinking first is not good for somebody who does not make money out of photography.

I tried a couple of weeks ago the 20D/E-300 and the 1DMkII/E-1 rivals. What can I say? The E-system is the most reasonable choice for me - but the feeling of holding the 1DMkII baby in my hands is unforgettable...

So I'm holding off my purchase for a little longer (couple of months).

Let us know, if you want of course, your final decision.

Constantine

--

'Freedom from the desire for an answer is essential to the understanding of a problem' - J. Krishnamurti

apdb90 said:

dgrogers said:

What are you going to shoot (in what conditions)? How large are
you going to print?

--
dgrogers

http://www.pbase.com/drog

Click to expand...

I guess the shortest answer would be "name it". It pretty much
runs the gamut. Pics of the kids, weddings and freelance news (on
"the side"-Police Officer by trade), nature (decided to hunt/shoot
deer with a camera instead of a gun or bow years ago-but most of
that is "up close" so "big" glass isn't really an issue), sports
(ranging from my oldest son's basketball games to car/motorcycle
racing), etc. When it comes to the "high speed" subjects, I'm not
worrying about putting food on the table with my shots. Most of my
prints are 8X10 or less, unless I end up with something exceptional
or have a wedding shot the customer wants enlarged. In both cases,
it's off for professional processing/printing. Otherwise, all my
printing is done in my livingroom on a printer with a maximum
capacity of 8X10.

Click to expand...

One of the things that attracted me to the E1 was the reputation for better auto white balance support, particularly for indoors shots. Prosumer Canons tend to get low marks for AWB, and the need to do a custom white balance, or tweak afterwards in post processing.

JScott said:

The 20D strobes the pop-up flash as an AF assist lamp. To me that
would be a non-starter. Imagine wedding guests annoyed by a
strobing flash in the face for hours on end.....

Click to expand...

The E300 does the same, and that was one of the reasons I went for the E1 rather than E300 (auto white balance was perhaps the most important).

Michael Meissner said:

JScott said:

The 20D strobes the pop-up flash as an AF assist lamp. To me that
would be a non-starter. Imagine wedding guests annoyed by a
strobing flash in the face for hours on end.....

Click to expand...

The E300 does the same, and that was one of the reasons I went for
the E1 rather than E300 (auto white balance was perhaps the most
important).

Click to expand...

HAHA...I went through the same decision. 20D or E1. The salesperson behind the counter was quite annoyed with me everytime I fooled around with the shutter button on the 20D. HE got flashed in a big way everytime. I did it about 8 or so times. Then I decided to put the camera down and get the E1.

Does this strobe effect of the 20D help with red-eye reduction?

i've written many times on this subject and here're some of the archived emails i wrote to my relatives to help them decide:
on 1st impressions:

body build -> E1 , more pro, rugged, weather proof, better materials, rubber and all
weight -> E1 lighter , even with lens
ergo -> E1 , nice handling, all buttons easily accessible, intuitive, nice grip
viewfinder -> E1 100% coverage, Canon wider due to 4x6 format
AF -> Canon, faster , 9 points; better in low light
Speed -> canon, more frames always ready to shoot
review -> canon better 10x zoom, faster review
image noise -> canon better at iso 800 and above
colors -> E1 truer closer to life
flash -> canon , E1 aint have 1 for pro cam dont have flash !
LCD -> canon even though E1 has more pixels
lens -> oly better quality , smooth zoom , small and light
dust removal -> E1 , what dust, aint see no dust?
menu -> canon , maybe for im used to it

overall, canon wins on performance, everything is faster, less noise...oly on build , ergo and image colors
take ur pic
for sports bring canon, for landscapes and portraits bring E1
no clear winner even though i may lean towards E1 due to size and ergo and build
on why i chose the E1 over the 20:

i've done a lot of research and reading before jumping to the E1 (but i was hooked on it the 1st time i held it) , a big jump indeed since i do have a lot of canon gear...to my delight, i'm not at all disappointed...here 're my findings:
the positives:

small lenses = a must for me, main reason for me to switch; all oly pro lenses have aperture of f2.8 , are well built, weather sealed and designed for digital; the advantage is at wide, there's no light falloff at the edges like 35mm lenses, a must for me since i live on wide; oly mount is twice as big as the CCD itself to allow for more light to enter and hit the CCD at 90degree thus no loss of light at the edge like on 35mm

all i need is 2 lenses and i can cover from 14mm to 200mm (x2) all at f2.8; i may add a 11-22mm f2,8 for wider shots if $$ allows

oly is famous for endoscopes and microscopes, so their zuiko optics are excellent

the E system lenses are great for wide, they cover from 7mm till 300mm (most of them w f2.8) at half the size of their equivalent 35mm (remember to multiply the focal by 2 due to the CCD size)

image quality: i'm very impressed w the results; the images are sharp edge to edge, even at wide, and contrasty, and have that 'oly' punch that owners refer to all the time; the colors tend to be closer to reality than canon; and there's less tendency to blow out hilites; the E1 seems to have a bit more dynamic range than the 20d

100% viewfinder = another must for me for accurate composition; been used to the pro bodies, and most consumer cams couldn't deliver this; u'd have to pay thousands to get this 100% coverage on the C or N camp

pro body: built like a tank; canon 20d is good, E1 is even better, weather sealed for rain shooting ; the feel of metal is precious; the cf and battery doors are solid, not flimsy, no creaks or rattles; it just feels special like my contax G; some cams make u want to hold and admire; the E1 is one of those, not the 20d.

ergonomics: the best of all cams i've handled, bar none; fits perfectly in ur hand, all buttons easily accessible, no need to go to menu; even at night, i can shoot w/o even looking, it's that friendly, even being new to the cam

1 touch custom WB setting: very nice feature, for resetting WB to the scene , exposure u want, and save it as custom

dust removal: one the best under advertized feature , no more dust, no more cleaning...i've spent lots of $$ w cleaning fluids and all but problem still there w canon especially in windy conditions...

pc sync slot: now i can use all my old auto and manual flash and use this to trigger the flash (most cams now drop this feature due to TTL)
firewire and USB 2 ports: nice but no big deal; one can use fast cf card reader

oly provides me w zuiko adapter for free but i'm not sure i need it since the E1 lenses are so good and small, who needs large and heavy manual lenses (except if ur name happens to be jeffery ;-)) )

mirror slap: very quiet and vibration free; canon 20d is much louder and not as smooth

Mirror lock up : a must feature for vibration free shooting on tripod and long exposure

the 4x3 format requires less cropping for any prints larger than 4x6 so better for enlargements

the not so positive:

startup, buffer size, speed of cf writing not as fast as canon 20d (the best of all consumer cams) but is enuf for my needs of tennis wildlife
AF points : only 3 but i can live w it, usually use the center point
no IS lenses in OLy lineup: ok, use a tripod

'only' 5.5mp: should be enuf for 16x20 prints, but i'll take 10mp if image quality is not compromised
at iso 1600 oly shows more noise than canon: will need noise reduction sw
zooming on review only up to 4x, canon can do 10x

no builtin flash: this would compromise weather seal so they opt against it like all pro cams; no big deal, i have a small oly flash for fillin purpose
all the best
cheers

from another reviewer of the E1 whose views i share w:
http://www.themcdonalds.ca/blog/2004/whye1.html
cheers,

Hopefully, this doesn't come across any way other than the COMPLIMENT that it is to members of this forum generally, and those who have replied to this post specifically. Obviously, I'm new to these forums. I've been "lurking" forever, but just recently joined. When I posted this thread, I had two concerns. First, was that I was going to get a bunch of brand loyalty-for the sake of brand loyalty-since I posted it in an Olympus forum. Second, I was concerned that there would be answers WAY above my understanding, my experience and understanding of photography being primarily with film cameras. Every reply I received has been VERY helpful. Just to touch a few: The pre flash of the Canon just wouldn't work for me. The seals of the E1 are a MAJOR factor. The last wedding I did was outdoors. The bride and groom were in a gazebo (barely big enough for them, let alone the minister) and the rest of us were outside. Mid ceremony, I was caught in a downpour, the likes of which I've never seen. I instantly looked like I, camera equipment included, jumped in the lake we were next to. Dust with digitals haven't been an issue for me with the E10, but the "sealed system" was the reason I went with the E10. Now that I'm going with an interchangable lens system, I need to consider it. I'll "touch up" my photo's, but prefer a more usable image right out of the camera. Long story short, your replies hit on all the issues that are important to me, and the E1 appears to be the clear winner. I'm still going to check both out first hand, if for no other reason than that Canon pre flash in the salesmans (I'm "old school", I don't think I'd do it to a lady) face. Especially considering that after blinding him, I'm going to walk out. It's still a few weeks until I'm actually going to buy one. Thanks again for all the fantastic information and taking the time to reply.

James Pilcher said:

Photography always comes down to the lenses. The camera body is
just a light-tight box designed to capture what the lens sees.

Click to expand...

Whereas this notion is largely true for film cameras, it is definitely not true for digital cameras, in which hardware and software play a major role in determining image quality. For this reason, adopting a particular digital camera system is not simply a matter of buying into a collection of lenses.

Rob

It's a personal choice indeed. For the longest time, I have been saving for an E1 and now that I have the funds in hand, I'm not so sure.

There is no doubt that the E1 bests the 20D in build quality and the ergos are superior but the 20D is no slouch and is actually a very, very fun and capable camera in real-world use.

I can appreciate why someone would move from Canon to Oly. There are some things you just can't get with Canon at this price point: Weather-sealing, dust shaker, and an optimized lens line-up.

Image quality is different: The Oly look, the Canon look etc. and what look appeals to you or your clients is a matter of preference. Frankly, I could be content with either one, but I will have to give the nod to the 20D. The speed of this camera is phenomenal. The colour out of the 20D is extremely accurate. This is not to say, "better" but it is very accurate. The 20D is everything that the 10D should've been and it meets my needs just a bit better. Your mileage may and should vary.

I'm very hopeful that 4:3 will gain even more traction in 2006 with the support of Matsushita. The best is yet to come as they say, but Canon isn't sleeping either.

Either way, both cameras will deliver the goods and you'll be a happy camper. Oly just announced some phenomenal lenses, so there is much to look forward too in this system.

Good shooting!

apdb90 said:

Greetings all,
I'll apologize if this has been asked and answered already, but I
didn't have much success with a search (and I'm not one of those
terribly patient people-that's why I love digital photography so
much; instant gratification). As I've said in other posts, I've
always been a loyal Nikon follower (35mm) until I "went digital"
and purchased my Olympus E10. It is, without a doubt, my favorite
camera. It's time to upgrade, and I'm pretty much set on an E1.
But with all the favorable press, reviews, opinions, etc. I've read
about the Canon 20D, I feel it merits at least some consideration.
Nikon isn't in the running anymore (the D70's really nice, but I
like the E1 ALOT more, the D2H is FAST and would probably be
interesting to evaluate in Freudian terms, but I'm not impressed
with the images it produces and I can't afford a D2X), so in my
$1500-$2500 price range-preferably on the lower end-it's down to
the E1 and 20D.
I'm obviously starting from "scratch" with a new system either way,
so existing equipment isn't a consideration. I also understand
this is an Olympus forum, but I'm probably as partial to Olympus
digitals as most of you are. Plus, I figure folks on the Olympus
forum will offer honest criticisims of the Canon as opposed to
those who are "brand loyal" to Canon. Long story short, which
should I buy-and why (as far as the 8mp issue-I'm not considering
the Evolt--just not hot on the design; not a "dig", just personal
preference)? Thanks in advance for your replies.

Click to expand...

--
Kevin Barrett
Lowell, MI
http://www.kbfoto.com

Yes, the The 20D strobes the pop-up flash as an AF assist lamp if you have that function enabled. Why is this an issue considering that you can disable it?

JScott said:

The 20D strobes the pop-up flash as an AF assist lamp. To me that
would be a non-starter. Imagine wedding guests annoyed by a
strobing flash in the face for hours on end.....

Click to expand...

--
'There is no conversation more boring than the one where everybody agrees.'