Good bye 28mm...

michalc · Feb 16, 2005

New Nikon cameras start at 38 mm - are we entering an era of toy cameras?

The OLY C-7000 range is 38-190 mm. 38 is not wide enough 190 is far from a telephoto. who needs 38-190?

Canon G6 and Sony V3 start at 34/35 mm that is mainly why I excluded both cameras from my shortlist (Sony also due to aperture problems at long zoom end).

OLY C7070 - 27mm - great! however the samples on the net are not very encouraging. Pictures are flat, poor dynamic range (burned highlights). So maybe 5060?

Canon S70 - almost ideal combination 28-100 mm, portable. but I can't imagine making photos with something like a gripless powder-box.

The best deal on the market now is probably Nikon 5400 - 5MP(fairly enough), 28-116mm, size and ergonomics perfect. Better than 8400 - who needs 8 MP that can be used up to ISO 100 only due to dreadful noise...

--
mc

Meryl Arbing · Feb 16, 2005

I understand your preference for a nice 28mm (or wider) equivalent wide angle...but I wanted to clarify that the Sony V3 doesn't have a diffraction problem at the long end of the zoom. In fact any effect that occurs due to diffraction in the newer cameras is at the wide end and largely disappears at the long end of the zoom.

But, now that I think of it, since aperture size is proportional to the focal length of the lens...the physical size of f8 at the V3's widest angle of 7mm is less than 1mm (@0.875mm) produces diffraction effects. If the V3 went down to the equivalent 28mm (or @5.75mm) the effects of diffraction could render it completely unusable at wide angle.

We also know that PF appears to increase in intensity as focal length decreases and aperture opens up. There would be significant PF (and wouldn't people HOWL then!!) if these little cameras went to 28mm.
Maybe that is the reason...who knows?

michalc said:
(Sony also due to aperture problems at long zoom end).

michalc · Feb 16, 2005

The problem with V3 is that the more you move to the long zoom end the resolution is going down - but only at small aperture. Meaning, unless you shoot at the wide zoom end you should keep your aperture wide open. The camera chooses the small aperture though. The problem is well explained in the review at dcresource.com.

Meryl Arbing said:
michalc said:

(Sony also due to aperture problems at long zoom end).

Click to expand...

--
mc

Tore Lund · Feb 16, 2005

michalc said:
The best deal on the market now is probably Nikon 5400 - 5MP(fairly
enough), 28-116mm, size and ergonomics perfect. Better than 8400 -
who needs 8 MP that can be used up to ISO 100 only due to dreadful
noise...

Pay a visit to Nikon Talk and feel the mood. People are deserting the 5400 in droves because of its sluggishness. The 8400 is said to be considerably bettter with regard to speed, and most other things too.
--
Tore

Meryl Arbing · Feb 16, 2005

We think that conclusion is wrong. What really appears to have happened. As other reviews have pointed out is that the Ve (on power up) is in "program select" mode meaning that the jog dial is set to change camera settings. The idea being that when a person turnes on the camera, they will want to check and set the camera's exposure. But, if a person is unaware of that, the camera stays in select mode and every move of the jog dial changes the settings UNTIL the higest setting (f8) is reached and then..it doesn't (and can't) go any higher no matter how many times the dial is turned.

Sony has placed the jog dial directly above the zoom control buttons and, when people are using the zoom, their thumb inadvertently moves the jog dial changing the aperture.

To avoid this, it is necessary to make sure that you press the jog dial button to lock the settings. Then it doesn't matter how may times the dial may be turned by accident, the settings won't change. Even in P mode, the camera powers up ready to 'select' settings..strangely there is only ONE mode where the camera does NOT power up in this way...Manual. Because they know that both aperture and shutter speed have to be adjusted in manual mode, the camera powers up ready for you to pick either Aperture OR Shutter speed by moving the jog dial. Only after you ahve selected one of the two to change does a movement of the jog dial change the setting. Before that, the jog dial simply alternates between Aperture and Shutter speed options but without changing anything.

It is likely that this appeared to people that the camera was programmed to choose higher fstops when it was actually that accidental movement of the jog dial was the real cause. In the end, it IS a programming issue...what state does the camera go into on startup...but not necessarily, that the camera is programmed to select f8.

Since there is an easy workaround, V3 owners don't bother themselves with worrying about it.

I shoot exclusively in Av mode and, yes, if I power up the camera in 'A' mode I have to make sure I lock the aperture setting by pressing the jog dial, but that gives me complete control over aperture. I don't do this because of any peculiarity of the V3..I use Av mode in ALL my cameras...film and digital.

michalc said:
The problem with V3 is that the more you move to the long zoom end
the resolution is going down - but only at small aperture...The
problem is well explained in the review at dcresource.com.

michalc · Feb 16, 2005

It IS sluggish but there is always a trade-off. no camera is perfect as I tried to point out.

5400's main rival I considered - oly 5060 I is much more solid and responsive. both have quite dark lens though. 5400 is however a little less noisy so you can step up a bit with ISO. and is smaller and lighter too - I plan it as a backup camera (it is hard to take a D70 while going on skiing

Tore Lund said:
michalc said:

The best deal on the market now is probably Nikon 5400 - 5MP(fairly
enough), 28-116mm, size and ergonomics perfect. Better than 8400 -
who needs 8 MP that can be used up to ISO 100 only due to dreadful
noise...

Click to expand...

Pay a visit to Nikon Talk and feel the mood. People are deserting
the 5400 in droves because of its sluggishness. The 8400 is said
to be considerably bettter with regard to speed, and most other
things too.
--
Tore

--
mc

Jay Turberville · Feb 16, 2005

Meryl Arbing said:
But, now that I think of it, since aperture size is proportional to
the focal length of the lens...the physical size of f8 at the V3's
widest angle of 7mm is less than 1mm (@0.875mm) produces
diffraction effects. If the V3 went down to the equivalent 28mm (or
@5.75mm) the effects of diffraction could render it completely
unusable at wide angle.

The effects of diffraction as expressed in resolution in lp/mm are proportional to the lens' f-ratio. So f/8 at a telephoto creates the same diffraction limiting effects as f/8 at a wider angle.

--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com

William R Sterling · Feb 16, 2005

I thoroughly enjoy the 28mm to 200mm (35mm equivalent) focal lengths on my Konica Minolta A2 - and the user interface on the camera is wonderful. Manual zoom and focusing are a biggy too. ;-)

--

cheers,
Rick Sterling
http://www.rickster.org/gallery/albums.php

Meryl Arbing · Feb 16, 2005

Then you would expect that a shot taken with the V3 at f8 would show the same diffraction effect at full zoom as a shot taken at f8 at wide angle?

Jay Turberville said:
Jay Turberville said:

But, now that I think of it, since aperture size is proportional to
the focal length of the lens...the physical size of f8 at the V3's
widest angle of 7mm is less than 1mm (@0.875mm) produces
diffraction effects. If the V3 went down to the equivalent 28mm (or
@5.75mm) the effects of diffraction could render it completely
unusable at wide angle.

Click to expand...

The effects of diffraction as expressed in resolution in lp/mm are
proportional to the lens' f-ratio. So f/8 at a telephoto creates
the same diffraction limiting effects as f/8 at a wider angle.

--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com

hardsuit01 · Feb 16, 2005

--
' lets see what's out there.....engage'

Wayne Larmon · Feb 16, 2005

michalc said:
Canon S70 - almost ideal combination 28-100 mm, portable. but I
can't imagine making photos with something like a gripless
powder-box.

Huh? What is the exact problem you are referring to?

Wayne Larmon

michalc · Feb 16, 2005

well that it looks like a powder-box - purely subjective I guess

I can't imagine making one-hand shots without a grip - it is a problem of imagination maybe...

purely subjective I guess...

Wayne Larmon said:
michalc said:

Canon S70 - almost ideal combination 28-100 mm, portable. but I
can't imagine making photos with something like a gripless
powder-box.

Click to expand...

Huh? What is the exact problem you are referring to?

Wayne Larmon

--
mc

michalc · Feb 16, 2005

Yes, that's a nice range. the weak point here seems to be lens.

i saw an interesting comparison based on koren test. the cameras checked were 6 MP dslrs and 8 MP digicams. they measured resolution as compared to the 'theoretical' lpm.
the winner was D70 with a kit lens -70%, the loser KM A2 - 30%

don't mean to spoil you humour though

William R Sterling said:
I thoroughly enjoy the 28mm to 200mm (35mm equivalent) focal
lengths on my Konica Minolta A2 - and the user interface on the
camera is wonderful. Manual zoom and focusing are a biggy too. ;-)

--

cheers,
Rick Sterling
http://www.rickster.org/gallery/albums.php

--
mc

Tore Lund · Feb 16, 2005

michalc said:
It IS sluggish but there is always a trade-off. no camera is
perfect as I tried to point out.

Actually, you did not express any reservations with regard to the 5400, so I just wanted to point out that there are many frustrated users.

But I can agree that the 5400 is a very good deal now for those who can get it cheap and who KNOW what they are doing. In fact, I am tempted to buy one myself, because I believe it does not have some of the problems that afflict my 4500.
--
Tore

wrz · Feb 16, 2005

michalc said:
well that it looks like a powder-box - purely subjective I guess

I can't imagine making one-hand shots without a grip - it is a
problem of imagination maybe...

purely subjective I guess...

Almost all Ricoh cameras starts at 28mm, even cheap ones like 200Euro Caplio R1, the only exception is entry RZ1 with 35mm. GX has small grip too and even more important Ricoh R1,R1v,R2 shutter lag in AF (!) mode is on the D2H(s) level - 0.05s. ! If you need more - wait few weeks for upcoming GX2 or GR1.

wrz#

michalc · Feb 16, 2005

Adios & aloha to 5400 then...

wow that was fast!

Tore Lund said:
michalc said:

It IS sluggish but there is always a trade-off. no camera is
perfect as I tried to point out.

Click to expand...

Actually, you did not express any reservations with regard to the
5400, so I just wanted to point out that there are many frustrated
users.

But I can agree that the 5400 is a very good deal now for those who
can get it cheap and who KNOW what they are doing. In fact, I am
tempted to buy one myself, because I believe it does not have some
of the problems that afflict my 4500.
--
Tore

--
mc

digital_ray_of_light · Feb 16, 2005

While the 28mm digital cameras that are around may not be of interest to you, but the number of digital cameras at 28mm has significantly increased the last few years.

To summary some of the options available from this thread and elsewhere:

Nikon 5400, 8400 (starts at 24mm)
Olympus 7070, 5060
Canon S70, S60, Pro-1
Minolta A200, A2, and older
Sony F828
Fuji E500, E510, some F-series are close to 28mm but not there
a lot of Ricohs

And that's before using any wide converter lenses - but some people don't like to use those...

michalc said:
New Nikon cameras start at 38 mm - are we entering an era of toy
cameras?

The OLY C-7000 range is 38-190 mm. 38 is not wide enough 190 is far
from a telephoto. who needs 38-190?

Canon G6 and Sony V3 start at 34/35 mm that is mainly why I
excluded both cameras from my shortlist (Sony also due to aperture
problems at long zoom end).

OLY C7070 - 27mm - great! however the samples on the net are not
very encouraging. Pictures are flat, poor dynamic range (burned
highlights). So maybe 5060?

Canon S70 - almost ideal combination 28-100 mm, portable. but I
can't imagine making photos with something like a gripless
powder-box.

The best deal on the market now is probably Nikon 5400 - 5MP(fairly
enough), 28-116mm, size and ergonomics perfect. Better than 8400 -
who needs 8 MP that can be used up to ISO 100 only due to dreadful
noise...

--
mc

Jay Turberville · Feb 16, 2005

Meryl Arbing said:
Then you would expect that a shot taken with the V3 at f8 would
show the same diffraction effect at full zoom as a shot taken at f8
at wide angle?

Right. For instance, f/8.0 is diffraction limited at around 200 lp/mm regardless of the focal length of the lens. F/16 is limited to around 100 lp/mm, which is why you won't see that f-ratio on very many (any?) small sensor digital cameras. They often have sensors capable of resolving much finer detail.

Just keep in mind that image quality is affected by the lens as well though. Also remember that there is more to this than the diffraction limit of resolution. Diffraction affects the MTF at resolutions below the limit, so you really don't want to be very close to where diffraction limits the resolution. Its good for your aperture to be well away from the limit.

There are charts online that will relate the lp/mm to the f-ratio for you. My online digiscoping calculator which can also be used for a camera with no scope will calculate these values for you as well.

http://www.jayandwanda.com/digiscope/digiscope_calc.html

--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com

Meryl Arbing · Feb 16, 2005

Yes, but that isn't what is seen. If you look at the V3 shots done at f8 and 7mm (wide angle), there is softness noticible but it you look at V3 shots done at f8 and 34mm (maximum zoom)..there is no softness. You can see that in the sample shots here...specifically pictures 12 and 13. Shot 13 was done at f8 and should show some effects. We know our samples shots are untouched so we can be reasonably certain that there was no additional sharpening to fix up softness.

Personally, I have also found that whatever effect there may be at f8/Wide angle, it becomes less and less noticible as you zoom the V3 until, at maximum zoom, there is no issue with f8.

It is a bit of a mystery but it is important that there is a work around for any possible diffraction effects.

I am not sure that this is limited to the V3 in any case but that it has been misidentified as a problem for this particular camera. Other cameras don't talk about an f8 problem which requires uses to use f4 or f5.6 rather...they talk about the lens 'sweet spot' at f4 or f5.6 where sharpness is maximum. In the case of Sony..it is declared a problem; in the case of other brands..simply the 'sweet spot'.

Jay Turberville said:
Jay Turberville said:

Then you would expect that a shot taken with the V3 at f8 would
show the same diffraction effect at full zoom as a shot taken at f8
at wide angle?

Click to expand...

Right. For instance, f/8.0 is diffraction limited at around 200
lp/mm regardless of the focal length of the lens. F/16 is limited
to around 100 lp/mm, which is why you won't see that f-ratio on
very many (any?) small sensor digital cameras. They often have
sensors capable of resolving much finer detail.

Just keep in mind that image quality is affected by the lens as
well though. Also remember that there is more to this than the
diffraction limit of resolution. Diffraction affects the MTF at
resolutions below the limit, so you really don't want to be very
close to where diffraction limits the resolution. Its good for
your aperture to be well away from the limit.

There are charts online that will relate the lp/mm to the f-ratio
for you. My online digiscoping calculator which can also be used
for a camera with no scope will calculate these values for you as
well.

http://www.jayandwanda.com/digiscope/digiscope_calc.html

--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com

hugh jampton · Feb 16, 2005

Did you look at the canon powershot pro 1? 28- 200 and sharp as a tack. Look at any comparison charts and include DSLR's and it wont be beaten . Value for money and amazing images. Or is it now unavailable? I love mine and dont think there is a better camera around

michalc said:
New Nikon cameras start at 38 mm - are we entering an era of toy
cameras?

The OLY C-7000 range is 38-190 mm. 38 is not wide enough 190 is far
from a telephoto. who needs 38-190?

Canon G6 and Sony V3 start at 34/35 mm that is mainly why I
excluded both cameras from my shortlist (Sony also due to aperture
problems at long zoom end).

OLY C7070 - 27mm - great! however the samples on the net are not
very encouraging. Pictures are flat, poor dynamic range (burned
highlights). So maybe 5060?

Canon S70 - almost ideal combination 28-100 mm, portable. but I
can't imagine making photos with something like a gripless
powder-box.

The best deal on the market now is probably Nikon 5400 - 5MP(fairly
enough), 28-116mm, size and ergonomics perfect. Better than 8400 -
who needs 8 MP that can be used up to ISO 100 only due to dreadful
noise...

--
mc

Good bye 28mm...

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