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PC HELL- The Next Installment (LONGer than the last one)

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Stanton said:
But that leads me to another observation. I have seen a number of
people who are so into the machinery that they don't pay attention
to the WORK that the machines are built to accomplish (not unlike
photographers that are so into the camera that they fail to focus
on their images). My friend Bob has more money invested in software
than I do in my car (not to mention the hardware) and uses but a
fraction of it. The machine becomes the end, rather than the means
to the end. That is not typical at all in the Mac world. Mac users
buy the box, set it up and use it to do whatever tasks they set out
to do. Some people have neither the technical saavy nor desire to
mess with systems, bios, etc.

Comments?

Regards,
Stanton
Click to expand...
I see this all the time, it's mostly driven by games ( home computing), they just need to run Quake or what ever faster. These are the people you want to know, you can usally pick up their cast offs at a fraction of the price, as long as you don't mind being 1 or 2 generations behind the bleeding edge.

I also pick up some nice photo gear this way.

Joe
 
stanton said:
about this and will call it as I see it.But honestly, if I were
this same new user on a Mac, I wouldn't have had to fight so hard
to get up and running as have this week with my first PC.
Click to expand...
And that's because you couldn't do the same thing with a Mac; they come pre-built. You could have bought a Dell or a Gateway that would work right out of the box, but you couldn't buy a bunch of Mac parts and build a computer out of them.

If you really know what you're doing ( or get good advice ), you can select the right parts and have the best machine available. Otherwise, you're learning for the sake of learning something new.

If it's possible, build a barebones pc from the old parts, put Windows on it ( 95 will do fine ), and break it. Then fix it. Break it again ( only break the software! ), and make it work. This is how you learn to actually use the computer... and this knowledge of how ( and why ) everything works together is what will eventually make this all intuitive.

Good luck!
 
Yes folks... I broke it again. Its a damned good thing the purpose of the thing is to learn rather than just to get work done.

There's a lot that Mac owners like me take for granted- like unplugging USB devices unceremoniously without reprecussion. As I was closing up shop on Friday, all was working well. I needed to pack up my USB card reader to take with my D1 kit. So, just like I do with my Mac, I unplug the thing (no card in the reader) and...oh, oh...I get this error message. So, I figure it might be just your typical error message...but then again maybe not.

Monday morning we fire it up again and notice that the wireless mouse is getting a little squirrly. I go to the control panels> mouse to see if I can reset it and get it to work. "Mouse driver not installed" (or some such thing). But... I can see it! Not installed??? So I figure "This is a PC. It needs the driver uninstalled first, then reinstalled". Well I do the logical thing, and the next thing you know, I can't reinstall the wireless mouse driver from its CD, nor am I successfully able to reload from the Windows CD... Macs don't have Disk Image backup like PC's, so until today I didn't even know what that was. Somehow I managed to screw up the WHOLE system.

The short version of this story is that I had to reformat my C partition and reinstall all the drivers and software. It was a big pain, because the first time I just downloaded the drivers and updates while hooked up to DSL. This time I had to get them via 56k. So, another day shot to hell.

At this point, I have everything disk imaged and can put some finishing touches on loading in the next day or two. Maybe I'll get some work done. Maybe even some on the PC .

So to provide all interested parties with the results of my initial Mac VS PC Unsharp Mask speed test....
Mac- 10 seconds. PC- 3 Weeks .

In all seriousness, it is true that I could have bought a box off the shelf, but that would have taught me very little. This "crash" (and I do mean CRASH) course in PC is providing exactly the knowledge that I was seeking. The Mac Evangelist in me had this kneejerk conception that Windows would be difficult, but I thought I might have exaggerated the difficulties in my mind from past experiences with DOS and early Windows. I will admit that the Windows workflow is greatly improved, but the complexity in staggering, at least to a Mac user who doesn't need to overclock a chip or define the order of boot devices. The one thing that that still has me mystified is now Microsoft licenses and distributes their operating software. Its like they want to squeeze blood out of a turnip. You know something is fishy in Denmark when a company such as Microsoft can prevail against the US government, particularly when the government is held to be correct in numerous courts of law...simply by outspending them.

Tomorrow holds color calibration in store for Me and My PC... Sounds like a jingle, eh?

Cheers to all,
Stanton
Forrest said:
Forrest41926 said:
about this and will call it as I see it.But honestly, if I were
this same new user on a Mac, I wouldn't have had to fight so hard
to get up and running as have this week with my first PC.
Click to expand...
And that's because you couldn't do the same thing with a Mac; they
come pre-built. You could have bought a Dell or a Gateway that
would work right out of the box, but you couldn't buy a bunch of
Mac parts and build a computer out of them.

If you really know what you're doing ( or get good advice ), you
can select the right parts and have the best machine available.
Otherwise, you're learning for the sake of learning something new.

If it's possible, build a barebones pc from the old parts, put
Windows on it ( 95 will do fine ), and break it. Then fix it.
Break it again ( only break the software! ), and make it work.
This is how you learn to actually use the computer... and this
knowledge of how ( and why ) everything works together is what will
eventually make this all intuitive.

Good luck!
Click to expand...
 
Honestly, why are you torturing yourself? Leave the pcs to those folks who like to twiddle and diddle, and get a mac and GET THE JOB DONE.

Macs are made for graphics folks who want to work and get it over with.

Obviously, the pc is not for you. Why waste any more time? Believe me, it's just going to get worse (glancing at trashed pc in the corner)...

You'll find that you're just gonna waste more time and energy, and it will never be satisfying.

Or better yet, keep the pc, and hire someone to do the twiddling for you. Now that's the way to do it, money for nothing, and picts for free...
 
Stanton said:
Mac- 10 seconds. PC- 3 Weeks .
Click to expand...
Stanton, for crissakes put yourself out of your misery and either go back to your Mac or buy a Dell, Gateway, or other turnkey PC system. As has been suggested before, a novice shouldn't try to scratch-build his/her own computer.
 
This sounds like “The 3-Stooges Meet the PC” :-). I had tears rolling down my eyes with laughter.

I'm second to few in my loathing of the BUGGY MS-Windows98 OS. It is definitely buggy and all the S/W and peripherals tend to conflict with each other. The relatively new USB is buggy. I spent a VERY long night to get a PC back up and running after installing a SCSI card in one a few years back. Plug and Play has been apply called “Plug and Pray.” I want to bring a class action suite against Microsoft for insulting me each time that DUMB ScanDisk comes up with the message admonishing me that “to avoid this in the future, to always shut your machine down properly” when it is the D*!@#$#@ buggy Microsoft OS that has crashed the crash. So hopefully it is clear there is no loved lost between me and a Windows based PC.

With all due respect Stanton because you have made be laugh (sort of like Spencer Tracy in “It a Mad Mad World” when Ethyl Merman Trips at the end), this is either a comedy routine or you are certifiably insane.

I don’t get what you think you are learning by building a PC from parts. I also don’t see how you can compare it to how easy it is to use a pre-built MAC. I don’t knock anyone putting a PC together as a hobby, but it is a lousy way to learn or to try and save money. Clearly some of your problems were from diving in at the deep end of the pool without knowing how to swim, lets face it, you sank ;-).

My new Windows2000 PC shipped from Dell Today. It was checked out by them and the OS was installed. I fully expect that the cards they put in it will work and work with Win2K. I am sure I will have some “fun” installing my software. But at least Dell, has 24/7 tech support (but that does not help with S/W) and a 3 year in office warranty. I have heard from many people that Win2K is vastly more stable than Win98, I certainly hope so, but I expect to have my own fun with its quirks and compatibility problems.

Anyway, have a nice day, and if you see people on television jumping over a car driving at them, don’t try it at home,

Karl
 
Karlg said:
This sounds like “The 3-Stooges Meet the PC” :-). I
had tears rolling down my eyes with laughter.
Click to expand...
I dunno. Seems like I'm having the last laugh. More like pc users meeting godzilla. Most mac users have NO IDEA what they are missing! Most PC users just accept this as the way computers are. Unbelieveable, huh?
Karl Guttag said:
I'm second to few in my loathing of the BUGGY MS-Windows98 OS. It
is definitely buggy and all the S/W and peripherals tend to
conflict with each other. The relatively new USB is buggy.
Click to expand...
USB was implemented on the mac years ago with the first iMac, and bugs were gone shortly after the release. It's been years; why is it still buggy on the pc? Now there is firewire (Apple invention), which has been around two years or so, and that runs just fine also. Not so on the pc. When are they going to catch up?
Karl Guttag said:
spent a VERY long night to get a PC back up and running after
installing a SCSI card in one a few years back. Plug and Play has
been apply called “Plug and Pray.” I want to bring a
class action suite against Microsoft for insulting me each time
that DUMB ScanDisk comes up with the message admonishing me that
“to avoid this in the future, to always shut your machine
down properly” when it is the D*!@#$#@ buggy Microsoft OS
that has crashed the crash. So hopefully it is clear there is no
loved lost between me and a Windows based PC.
Click to expand...
Listen, everyone starts out on one platform, and once they learn it or gets used to its quirks, they usually stick with it. But to go from a Mac to a PC is really going in the wrong direction.

At least you have discovered what 90% of the other people have to put up with most of the time. Now you can truely appreciate what Apple has done for its users.
Karl Guttag said:
My new Windows2000 PC shipped from Dell Today. It was checked out
by them and the OS was installed. I fully expect that the cards
they put in it will work and work with Win2K. I am sure I will
have some “fun” installing my software. But at least
Dell, has 24/7 tech support (but that does not help with S/W) and a
3 year in office warranty. I have heard from many people that
Win2K is vastly more stable than Win98, I certainly hope so, but I
expect to have my own fun with its quirks and compatibility
problems.
Click to expand...
There is REALLY no reason why you should have to have "FUN" installing software. It should just be "click install", and that's it. That's how it is on the mac. Why they haven't gotten to that point with the PC after all these years mystifies me.... Oh well, to each his own.
 
If your world consists of graphics and you have limited computer knowledge get a Mac...if you need to do other computer get a PC..our graphics dept has 3 Macs and 3 PC's the other 420 machines in the organization are PC's.. use common sense not cult logic.
Lynda Botez said:
Karlg said:
This sounds like “The 3-Stooges Meet the PC” :-). I
had tears rolling down my eyes with laughter.
Click to expand...
I dunno. Seems like I'm having the last laugh. More like pc users
meeting godzilla. Most mac users have NO IDEA what they are
missing! Most PC users just accept this as the way computers are.
Unbelieveable, huh?
Member said:
I'm second to few in my loathing of the BUGGY MS-Windows98 OS. It
is definitely buggy and all the S/W and peripherals tend to
conflict with each other. The relatively new USB is buggy.
Click to expand...
USB was implemented on the mac years ago with the first iMac, and
bugs were gone shortly after the release. It's been years; why is
it still buggy on the pc? Now there is firewire (Apple invention),
which has been around two years or so, and that runs just fine
also. Not so on the pc. When are they going to catch up?
Member said:
spent a VERY long night to get a PC back up and running after
installing a SCSI card in one a few years back. Plug and Play has
been apply called “Plug and Pray.” I want to bring a
class action suite against Microsoft for insulting me each time
that DUMB ScanDisk comes up with the message admonishing me that
“to avoid this in the future, to always shut your machine
down properly” when it is the D*!@#$#@ buggy Microsoft OS
that has crashed the crash. So hopefully it is clear there is no
loved lost between me and a Windows based PC.
Click to expand...
Listen, everyone starts out on one platform, and once they learn it
or gets used to its quirks, they usually stick with it. But to go
from a Mac to a PC is really going in the wrong direction.

At least you have discovered what 90% of the other people have to
put up with most of the time. Now you can truely appreciate what
Apple has done for its users.
Member said:
My new Windows2000 PC shipped from Dell Today. It was checked out
by them and the OS was installed. I fully expect that the cards
they put in it will work and work with Win2K. I am sure I will
have some “fun” installing my software. But at least
Dell, has 24/7 tech support (but that does not help with S/W) and a
3 year in office warranty. I have heard from many people that
Win2K is vastly more stable than Win98, I certainly hope so, but I
expect to have my own fun with its quirks and compatibility
problems.
Click to expand...
There is REALLY no reason why you should have to have "FUN"
installing software. It should just be "click install", and that's
it. That's how it is on the mac. Why they haven't gotten to that
point with the PC after all these years mystifies me.... Oh well,
to each his own.
Click to expand...
 
Hi Lynda,

With all due respect you sound like someone who, like the person here, tried to mess around "under the hood" without knowing what you were doing.

Did you try doing that with your G4 before knowing what you were doing? I didn't think so. Otherwise you'd have the same opinion of Macs.

They're all just machines...if you mess with them without knowing what you are doing, you will get headaches. Don't pretend it's just a "PC thing".
Lynda Botez said:
Honestly, why are you torturing yourself? Leave the pcs to those
folks who like to twiddle and diddle, and get a mac and GET THE JOB
DONE.

Macs are made for graphics folks who want to work and get it over
with.

Obviously, the pc is not for you. Why waste any more time? Believe
me, it's just going to get worse (glancing at trashed pc in the
corner)...

You'll find that you're just gonna waste more time and energy, and
it will never be satisfying.

Or better yet, keep the pc, and hire someone to do the twiddling
for you. Now that's the way to do it, money for nothing, and picts
for free...
Click to expand...
 
Lynda Botez said:
I dunno. Seems like I'm having the last laugh. More like pc users
meeting godzilla. Most mac users have NO IDEA what they are
missing! Most PC users just accept this as the way computers are.
Unbelieveable, huh?
Click to expand...
Alas, this is more religious dogma not rooted in reality. Lynda, one more time: Over 90% of the world's computers are PC's, and most buy from reputable manufacturers (like Dell, Gateway, etc.) and are happy with the performance of their systems. Novices shouldn't build their own cars or computers, so enough of the religious zeal, please! When Stanton started this fiasco I rolled my eyes around, as it was destined to become a flame-fest about how superior Macs were compared to PC's.

You are comparing apples and oranges here, attempting to negotiate a bunch of largely old parts to build a working PC and a Mac already built by the only people who make them. If you simply must compare the two platforms, eschew the religious dogma and compare a Dell with your Mac. Once again, novices shouldn't build their own cars or computers.
Member said:
USB was implemented on the mac years ago with the first iMac, and
bugs were gone shortly after the release. It's been years; why is
it still buggy on the pc?
Click to expand...
Bull butter. Macs were years behind on the USB bandwagon. A client of mine has a one-year-old Mac with no USB ports and my sister-in-law a two-year-old with none. I have one USB device on my PC which is working fine. What's the problem with newer USB configuration? Yes, the first units out were buggy, before Mac even had USB ports, but this is 2001. Get a grip on reality.
Member said:
which has been around two years or so, and that runs just fine
also. Not so on the pc. When are they going to catch up?
Click to expand...
More religious poppycock. I have built-in firewire on my Sony VAIO and it works fine. What are the problems related to PC's and firewire you suggest but fail to detail?
Member said:
Listen, everyone starts out on one platform, and once they learn it
or gets used to its quirks, they usually stick with it. But to go
from a Mac to a PC is really going in the wrong direction.
Click to expand...
Regious dogma is running rampant. I have several experienced graphic-designer clients who have changed from Mac to PC in the past year, stating that there is no meaningful difference anymore and PC's are the wave of the future. This isn't relgious zeal on my part, just a report from these users. Further, they tell me that service bureaus are moving toward PC's as their standard because PC's are becoming the platform of choice in that field.

FWIW, most graphic designers I know still use Macs and most like them very much and wouldn't switch. Most of these people know little about computers and, like you, are overflowing with relgious zeal. Also, all of them suffer from continual crashes and hardware problems, neither of which all but one are able to fix themselves. I see this constantly, yet my home-built PC will go for weeks without an incident of any kind. I am not suggesting that PC's as a whole are more reliable than Macs, but I do see Macs crashing at clients' offices far more that I experience here.
Member said:
At least you have discovered what 90% of the other people have to
put up with most of the time. Now you can truely appreciate what
Apple has done for its users.
Click to expand...
You are the type that should buy your Macs year by year, enjoy the religious zeal that the experience brings, and let the rest of the world operate on their PC's.
Member said:
There is REALLY no reason why you should have to have "FUN"
installing software. It should just be "click install", and that's
it. That's how it is on the mac. Why they haven't gotten to that
point with the PC after all these years mystifies me.... Oh well,
to each his own.
Click to expand...
Lynda, I run Win98SE on a 850mhz PC with six SCSI devices attached, one USB printer, two other parallel printers, floppy drive, NIC, serial modem, two hard drives (one removeable), and a soundcard and I DON'T HAVE PROBLEMS INSTALLING SOFTWARE! For crissakes, get a grip on reality! Installing is straight forward for most apps, though if an app is poorly written, you may have trouble. I have run across a small number of apps that are flakey in operation and when I do I uninstall and that's it! However, I can't think of one app I've run across in the past three years that I've had trouble installing. Finis! Enough already!

If you want to build your own PC, get some experience first. If not, buy a Dell...or a Mac.
 
**** said:
Lynda Botez said:
Karlg said:
This sounds like “The 3-Stooges Meet the PC” :-). I
had tears rolling down my eyes with laughter.
Click to expand...
I dunno. Seems like I'm having the last laugh. More like pc users
meeting godzilla. Most mac users have NO IDEA what they are
missing! Most PC users just accept this as the way computers are.
Unbelieveable, huh?
Member said:
I'm second to few in my loathing of the BUGGY MS-Windows98 OS. It
is definitely buggy and all the S/W and peripherals tend to
conflict with each other. The relatively new USB is buggy.
Click to expand...
USB was implemented on the mac years ago with the first iMac, and
bugs were gone shortly after the release. It's been years; why is
it still buggy on the pc? Now there is firewire (Apple invention),
which has been around two years or so, and that runs just fine
also. Not so on the pc. When are they going to catch up?
Member said:
spent a VERY long night to get a PC back up and running after
installing a SCSI card in one a few years back. Plug and Play has
been apply called “Plug and Pray.” I want to bring a
class action suite against Microsoft for insulting me each time
that DUMB ScanDisk comes up with the message admonishing me that
“to avoid this in the future, to always shut your machine
down properly” when it is the D*!@#$#@ buggy Microsoft OS
that has crashed the crash. So hopefully it is clear there is no
loved lost between me and a Windows based PC.
Click to expand...
Listen, everyone starts out on one platform, and once they learn it
or gets used to its quirks, they usually stick with it. But to go
from a Mac to a PC is really going in the wrong direction.

At least you have discovered what 90% of the other people have to
put up with most of the time. Now you can truely appreciate what
Apple has done for its users.
Member said:
My new Windows2000 PC shipped from Dell Today. It was checked out
by them and the OS was installed. I fully expect that the cards
they put in it will work and work with Win2K. I am sure I will
have some “fun” installing my software. But at least
Dell, has 24/7 tech support (but that does not help with S/W) and a
3 year in office warranty. I have heard from many people that
Win2K is vastly more stable than Win98, I certainly hope so, but I
expect to have my own fun with its quirks and compatibility
problems.
Click to expand...
There is REALLY no reason why you should have to have "FUN"
installing software. It should just be "click install", and that's
it. That's how it is on the mac. Why they haven't gotten to that
point with the PC after all these years mystifies me.... Oh well,
to each his own.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Amen, and pass the collection plate.

(Sorry about prior blank post)
**** said:
If your world consists of graphics and you have limited computer
knowledge get a Mac...if you need to do other computer get a
PC..our graphics dept has 3 Macs and 3 PC's the other 420 machines
in the organization are PC's.. use common sense not cult logic.
Click to expand...
 
While I agree with much of your post on the Apples to Oranges comparison, the Win98 world is not all wonderful.

I cring every time I add something to my system be it software or hardware. I figure Software has a 60% chance of working without some extra work (like going to their web site for a patch, or having to get an updated driver for a graphics card). Internally installed cards seem have about a 40% chance of working out of the box and the probability goes down dramatically if you want to fill all the slots.

USB is another matter. High speed devices like the EPSON 1270 will not work if certain other USB devices are on the USB (I have to unplug a USB hub to get my 1270, on a separate USB line from the PC, to work).

Most people I know have learned to just live with and work around the quirks because there are so many combinations and permutations of what could be wrong that it could take forever to get at fully stable system.

The WIN98 OS is really pretty bad and VERY poorly "protected." It is a series of bandaids and patches on top of a hobbiest OS from the 1980's. It does not keep each application isolated so that any application can interfere with any other application making it hard to isolate which application is really causing the problem. Win98 is well known to "forget about" memory that was suppose to be de-alocated causing PCs to run poorly and then crash (this is the Reason I am getting a new PC with Win2K).

At my former job in a high tech company, the MIS department (that took over all PC use within the company) would go to great lengths to prevent any hardware or software from going onto any PC except from a small aproved list (when you got a PC, they did not let you have the Win98 disk to try and keep people from being able to load their own software).

I think that much of the slowing of the PC market is caused by the buggy and unreliable Windows OS. The many former "early adoptors" have decided that it just is not worth the hassle of loading up a PC and pushing it with advanced software and new peripherals. This is breaking the hardware drives software and software driving hardware that has fueled the PC market growth. Many people are backing off and not pushing it any more.

Karl
 
Bob Davis said:
Stanton said:
Mac- 10 seconds. PC- 3 Weeks .
Click to expand...
Stanton, for crissakes put yourself out of your misery and either
go back to your Mac or buy a Dell, Gateway, or other turnkey PC
system. As has been suggested before, a novice shouldn't try to
scratch-build his/her own computer.
Click to expand...
Bob,

I did not build my own computer. I went to a local company that specializes in building computers. The original project was simply to upgrade an old computer that I was given. I could have bought one of the aforementioned brands... but when I was initially inquiring about PC selection vs Mac, all the PC gurus around here kept saying "you have so many more choices with PC", or "you can select your own components for a lot less money". Not a single one said "Go buy a Dell".

First, it should be understood that I did not begin tinkering under the hood until I had serious problems. The first build (professional done, btw) corrupted THREE hard drives. I thought that it might have been the drives, so I bought brand new, up to date CD-ROM and a new Fujitsu hard drive and the Fujitsu got screwed up too. All the tinkering that I did up to that point (bios, etc.) was with experienced guidance. I did not just start "tinkering". After a LONG weekend, we determined that bad data was being transferred across the PCI bus and that I probably had a bad mother board. Y'all chided me for putting a crappy motherboard in the computer in the first place.

I made the company rebuild the system with a quality motherboard and different processor. The company was not thrilled that I made them take the other parts back. They were so concerned that they prove to me that the new system they had built was working correctly that they hooked it up with THEIR hard drive (don't ask me why). When they hooked up my HD, they did it incorrectly, leaving jumpers on the Master setting, plugging the ribbon into the ATA/Raid IDE connection. Needless to say the PROFESSIONAL installer screwed up, leaving this newbie to fend for himself. I though I was doing something wrong when I couldn't get the PC to recognize the drive. Absolutely maddening.

So why am I torturing myself? The consulting end of my digital photography/graphics business is growing and I NEED to know more than the average PC user. The first thing I needed to know is about video cards and calibration. All the cards on the market tout how much on-board ram it has, if it supports 2D, 3D. In the recent past, only a very few cards supported CLUTs and downloadable gamma ramps. THIS is what is important in photography and graphics. I asked a lot of folks about this stuff, and not one person had any answers. When I finally installed my (Kodak Colorflow) calibration software, the tech notes had a very limited number of cards that could be calibrated. FWIW, I got the very latest version of the software that has just been released, so it shouldn't be dated information. The rest of the computer really seems simple enough. Motherboard, processor, power supply, ram, cards, drives. What else is there besides software? It should have worked fine, right from the store... the first time...the second time.

I'm glad this project was a quest for knowledge more than for need of a box. In the past three weeks I've learned: About PC components, brands, parts, assembly, what's under the hood and what makes it tick. I've learned about all the existing Microsoft OS's, including its odd licensing deals. I've learned how to kill a PC and bring it back to life. How to troubleshoot hardware components. I've learned how the bios functions and how and when to make basic adjustments. I've learned about color calibration and profiling on a PC. I've learned about partitions, disk imaging, ATA/Raid. I have quite a good handle on the similarites and differences between the PC and Mac. All in all, I think I've learned quite a bit in a very short time. Buying a Dell or Gateway only would have provided a box, and I'd be only slightly ahead of where I was three weeks ago. My next challenge will be learning to use both platforms on a mixed environment network.

I have no doubt that I'll get it working and stable. In a twisted, sadistic way, the all the trouble did have its advantages. From a knowledge base, I'm getting everything I needed. From a hardware base, I now have a PC with a decent motherboard, a 1.1gig AMD Thunderbird processor, 512mb of ram, Matrox G400 Millenium video card, CD-ROM (ide), CD-RW (scsi), 20 gig ATA 100 drive, 10 gig ATA 66 drive (soon to be installed)...for $600, plus software. As I look backwards, all I really wanted in the beginning was someone's hand-me-down PC so I could have a look-see at the PC world. This all reminds me of a pet phrase that first heard from a good friend...

"Coffee leads to donuts. Donuts leads to Ants".

Que tenga buen dia,
Stanton
 
Bob Davis said:
Once again, novices shouldn't build their own
cars or computers.
Click to expand...
One of the main reasons for buying a pc is to be able to upgrade, add cards, etc. Do you have to be a technician to do this?
Member said:
Bull butter. Macs were years behind on the USB bandwagon. A
client of mine has a one-year-old Mac with no USB ports and my
sister-in-law a two-year-old with none. I have one USB device on
my PC which is working fine. What's the problem with newer USB
configuration? Yes, the first units out were buggy, before Mac
even had USB ports, but this is 2001. Get a grip on reality.
Click to expand...
well, the reality is that Apple PUSHED USB on to everyone. There have been USB ports in all Apple products since the introduction of the iMac, over 3 years ago. There has not been a MAC without USB created since then, so your statement about someone with a one-year old mac without USB ports is WRONG. You don't know what you are talking about.

PC users still aren't converted over to using USB, while all new mac users since 1998 have USB ports in their computers, and actually have nothing else to connect printers, mice, and many external devices to their computers.
Member said:
More religious poppycock. I have built-in firewire on my Sony VAIO
and it works fine. What are the problems related to PC's and
firewire you suggest but fail to detail?
Click to expand...
Actually, I'm not complaining about firewire on the pc. However, in the year 2000 Apple implemented Firewire (or i-link, or IEEE 1394 or whatever you want to call it) into ALL their computer products and now you cannot buy a macintosh without this interface. Originally it was only put into their higher end products, but now it is included in all hardware. The PC is WAY behind getting this stuff as standard. However, it will be implemented, and eventually will be a part of every PC on the market. Firewire, an incredibly fast interface, was invented at Apple years ago. It is hot swapable (at least on the mac) and you don't have to reboot to insert or remove from a computer. Firewire is fabulous technology and I "can't leave home without it"...
Member said:
Regious dogma is running rampant. I have several experienced
graphic-designer clients who have changed from Mac to PC in the
past year, stating that there is no meaningful difference anymore
and PC's are the wave of the future.
Click to expand...
Er... that's not what I hear from mac graphic designers being forced onto pcs. It's true that you can run most of the same software, but productivity does make a difference. Just because something like photoshop runs on a pc, doesn't mean it runs in the SAME WAY. After all, Photoshop was originally written for the mac; what you've got is a port. But I digress.

Anyway, I'm glad you like your pc and you have no trouble, and everything is wonderful. For you. But in my experience, most pc people are plagued with error messages that come from incomplete deinstalls of software programs, missing dll's, or problems installing new stuff that can't find some file or continually ask for the user to insert the Windows 98 system disk... or even worse, some IRQ conflict.

My point is this: if you are a current mac user and you think that switching over to the pc is going to take you to computer nirvana, I've got news for you. Things you take for granted on the mac don't work the same way on the pc. For example, just tossing a file away on a mac is trivial, but on a pc you have to get involved with a de-installer (if there is one).

Sorry to extend this platform war thing. I'll try and contain myself on future posts.
 
Dive right in! You have made remarkable progress in
a short time. Very soon you will be able to use the PC
without fear because you can fix anything yourself!
Stanton said:
Bob Davis said:
Stanton said:
Mac- 10 seconds. PC- 3 Weeks .
Click to expand...
Stanton, for crissakes put yourself out of your misery and either
go back to your Mac or buy a Dell, Gateway, or other turnkey PC
system. As has been suggested before, a novice shouldn't try to
scratch-build his/her own computer.
Click to expand...
Bob,

I did not build my own computer. I went to a local company that
specializes in building computers. The original project was simply
to upgrade an old computer that I was given. I could have bought
one of the aforementioned brands... but when I was initially
inquiring about PC selection vs Mac, all the PC gurus around here
kept saying "you have so many more choices with PC", or "you can
select your own components for a lot less money". Not a single one
said "Go buy a Dell".

First, it should be understood that I did not begin tinkering under
the hood until I had serious problems. The first build
(professional done, btw) corrupted THREE hard drives. I thought
that it might have been the drives, so I bought brand new, up to
date CD-ROM and a new Fujitsu hard drive and the Fujitsu got
screwed up too. All the tinkering that I did up to that point
(bios, etc.) was with experienced guidance. I did not just start
"tinkering". After a LONG weekend, we determined that bad data was
being transferred across the PCI bus and that I probably had a bad
mother board. Y'all chided me for putting a crappy motherboard in
the computer in the first place.

I made the company rebuild the system with a quality motherboard
and different processor. The company was not thrilled that I made
them take the other parts back. They were so concerned that they
prove to me that the new system they had built was working
correctly that they hooked it up with THEIR hard drive (don't ask
me why). When they hooked up my HD, they did it incorrectly,
leaving jumpers on the Master setting, plugging the ribbon into the
ATA/Raid IDE connection. Needless to say the PROFESSIONAL installer
screwed up, leaving this newbie to fend for himself. I though I
was doing something wrong when I couldn't get the PC to recognize
the drive. Absolutely maddening.

So why am I torturing myself? The consulting end of my digital
photography/graphics business is growing and I NEED to know more
than the average PC user. The first thing I needed to know is about
video cards and calibration. All the cards on the market tout how
much on-board ram it has, if it supports 2D, 3D. In the recent
past, only a very few cards supported CLUTs and downloadable gamma
ramps. THIS is what is important in photography and graphics. I
asked a lot of folks about this stuff, and not one person had any
answers. When I finally installed my (Kodak Colorflow) calibration
software, the tech notes had a very limited number of cards that
could be calibrated. FWIW, I got the very latest version of the
software that has just been released, so it shouldn't be dated
information. The rest of the computer really seems simple enough.
Motherboard, processor, power supply, ram, cards, drives. What else
is there besides software? It should have worked fine, right
from the store... the first time...the second time.

I'm glad this project was a quest for knowledge more than for need
of a box. In the past three weeks I've learned: About PC
components, brands, parts, assembly, what's under the hood and what
makes it tick. I've learned about all the existing Microsoft OS's,
including its odd licensing deals. I've learned how to kill a PC
and bring it back to life. How to troubleshoot hardware components.
I've learned how the bios functions and how and when to make basic
adjustments. I've learned about color calibration and profiling on
a PC. I've learned about partitions, disk imaging, ATA/Raid. I have
quite a good handle on the similarites and differences between the
PC and Mac. All in all, I think I've learned quite a bit in a very
short time. Buying a Dell or Gateway only would have provided a
box, and I'd be only slightly ahead of where I was three weeks ago.
My next challenge will be learning to use both platforms on a mixed
environment network.

I have no doubt that I'll get it working and stable. In a twisted,
sadistic way, the all the trouble did have its advantages. From a
knowledge base, I'm getting everything I needed. From a hardware
base, I now have a PC with a decent motherboard, a 1.1gig AMD
Thunderbird processor, 512mb of ram, Matrox G400 Millenium video
card, CD-ROM (ide), CD-RW (scsi), 20 gig ATA 100 drive, 10 gig ATA
66 drive (soon to be installed)...for $600, plus software. As I
look backwards, all I really wanted in the beginning was someone's
hand-me-down PC so I could have a look-see at the PC world. This
all reminds me of a pet phrase that first heard from a good
friend...

"Coffee leads to donuts. Donuts leads to Ants".

Que tenga buen dia,
Stanton
Click to expand...
 
Karl you are correct. WIndows 98 does suck. So why are you using it. You should switch to Windows 2000 if you are having problems.
Karlg said:
While I agree with much of your post on the Apples to Oranges
comparison, the Win98 world is not all wonderful.

I cring every time I add something to my system be it software or
hardware. I figure Software has a 60% chance of working without
some extra work (like going to their web site for a patch, or
having to get an updated driver for a graphics card). Internally
installed cards seem have about a 40% chance of working out of the
box and the probability goes down dramatically if you want to fill
all the slots.

USB is another matter. High speed devices like the EPSON 1270 will
not work if certain other USB devices are on the USB (I have to
unplug a USB hub to get my 1270, on a separate USB line from the
PC, to work).

Most people I know have learned to just live with and work around
the quirks because there are so many combinations and permutations
of what could be wrong that it could take forever to get at fully
stable system.

The WIN98 OS is really pretty bad and VERY poorly "protected." It
is a series of bandaids and patches on top of a hobbiest OS from
the 1980's. It does not keep each application isolated so that any
application can interfere with any other application making it hard
to isolate which application is really causing the problem. Win98
is well known to "forget about" memory that was suppose to be
de-alocated causing PCs to run poorly and then crash (this is the
Reason I am getting a new PC with Win2K).

At my former job in a high tech company, the MIS department (that
took over all PC use within the company) would go to great lengths
to prevent any hardware or software from going onto any PC except
from a small aproved list (when you got a PC, they did not let you
have the Win98 disk to try and keep people from being able to load
their own software).

I think that much of the slowing of the PC market is caused by the
buggy and unreliable Windows OS. The many former "early adoptors"
have decided that it just is not worth the hassle of loading up a
PC and pushing it with advanced software and new peripherals. This
is breaking the hardware drives software and software driving
hardware that has fueled the PC market growth. Many people are
backing off and not pushing it any more.

Karl
Click to expand...
 
stanton said:
I have no doubt that I'll get it working and stable. In a twisted,
sadistic way, the all the trouble did have its advantages. From a
knowledge base, I'm getting everything I needed. From a hardware
base, I now have a PC with a decent motherboard, a 1.1gig AMD
Thunderbird processor, 512mb of ram, Matrox G400 Millenium video
card, CD-ROM (ide), CD-RW (scsi), 20 gig ATA 100 drive, 10 gig ATA
66 drive (soon to be installed)...for $600, plus software. As I
look backwards, all I really wanted in the beginning was someone's
hand-me-down PC so I could have a look-see at the PC world. This
all reminds me of a pet phrase that first heard from a good
friend...
Click to expand...
And you're well upon your way. The more you break and fix your computer, the more you'll learn about it, how everything fits together, why it works... A PC can be as stable as a Mac if it's set up right ... and you're learning how to do that. A word of advice, once you have everything set up properly ( software wise ) with a fresh install, burn a copy of your hard disc to a CD. Next time it crashes hard, you can just copy it back, instead of reinstalling all the software and rivers.
 
Karlg, you have one atypical pc...I install and uninstall at least 5 to 10 programs a week for review...I do this on a Win 98 machine with the 1st Svc pack installed, there is a tablet USB, Sandisk reader USB, an Epson 1270, an HP Photosmart printer and finally a Photosmart scanner on this machine. I install and uninstall properly and use Cleansweep and Fixit 3.0 to clean the registry every week. There are at least 35 major programs, network and internet on this machine..it is a 1999 Intel board...and it has not crashed in 4 months!...there are proper and improper ways to set up a PC...I suggest you seek some professional guru help ...****
Karlg said:
While I agree with much of your post on the Apples to Oranges
comparison, the Win98 world is not all wonderful.

I cring every time I add something to my system be it software or
hardware. I figure Software has a 60% chance of working without
some extra work (like going to their web site for a patch, or
having to get an updated driver for a graphics card). Internally
installed cards seem have about a 40% chance of working out of the
box and the probability goes down dramatically if you want to fill
all the slots.

USB is another matter. High speed devices like the EPSON 1270 will
not work if certain other USB devices are on the USB (I have to
unplug a USB hub to get my 1270, on a separate USB line from the
PC, to work).

Most people I know have learned to just live with and work around
the quirks because there are so many combinations and permutations
of what could be wrong that it could take forever to get at fully
stable system.

The WIN98 OS is really pretty bad and VERY poorly "protected." It
is a series of bandaids and patches on top of a hobbiest OS from
the 1980's. It does not keep each application isolated so that any
application can interfere with any other application making it hard
to isolate which application is really causing the problem. Win98
is well known to "forget about" memory that was suppose to be
de-alocated causing PCs to run poorly and then crash (this is the
Reason I am getting a new PC with Win2K).

At my former job in a high tech company, the MIS department (that
took over all PC use within the company) would go to great lengths
to prevent any hardware or software from going onto any PC except
from a small aproved list (when you got a PC, they did not let you
have the Win98 disk to try and keep people from being able to load
their own software).

I think that much of the slowing of the PC market is caused by the
buggy and unreliable Windows OS. The many former "early adoptors"
have decided that it just is not worth the hassle of loading up a
PC and pushing it with advanced software and new peripherals. This
is breaking the hardware drives software and software driving
hardware that has fueled the PC market growth. Many people are
backing off and not pushing it any more.

Karl
Click to expand...
 
Stanton said:
I did not build my own computer. I went to a local company that
specializes in building computers. The original project was simply
to upgrade an old computer that I was given. I could have bought
one of the aforementioned brands... but when I was initially
inquiring about PC selection vs Mac, all the PC gurus around here
kept saying "you have so many more choices with PC", or "you can
select your own components for a lot less money". Not a single one
said "Go buy a Dell".
Click to expand...
Well, just buying a Dell is one sure way to get a reliable system without hassling with it yourself. If you have trouble, call tech support.

Frankly, I don't see anything wrong with what you've tried to accomplish, yet I also can't figure out why it has become such a nightmare. Perhaps the builders leave something to be desired, as the selection of a cheap mobo may be part of the problem. But a cheap mobo is not any assurance that the system will not perform well. I have always bought quality brands, an Abit BE6II in the last case and an Aopen before that. The Abit has been extraordinarily reliable and stable for 18 months, and it is loaded with peripheral hardware. It is a dream to work with.
stanton said:
The first build (professional done, btw) corrupted THREE hard drives. I

thought that it might have been the drives, so I bought brand new, up > to date CD-ROM and a new Fujitsu hard drive and the Fujitsu got
screwed up too.
Click to expand...
In 19 years of messing with these things, I've never had a hard drive become corrupted, though I've heard of isolated cases occurring. I would suspect the controller as the culprit if replacing drives continues to manifest the same problem.
stanton said:
After a LONG weekend, we determined that bad data was
being transferred across the PCI bus and that I probably had a bad
mother board. Y'all chided me for putting a crappy motherboard in
the computer in the first place.
Click to expand...
I don't think I chided you, but I would just spend another $50-75 and get a high-end board (Abit, Asus, Aopen, and Gigabyte are a few usually good bets). There are some really cheap boards out there, and they do cut corners by reducing layers and using other means of driving the price down.
stanton said:
When they hooked up my HD, they did it incorrectly,
leaving jumpers on the Master setting, plugging the ribbon into the
ATA/Raid IDE connection.
Click to expand...
If your drive is the master drive, there is nothing wrong with jumpering it as master. That's the way I have mine jumpered here. Was the "ATA/Raid" connection to an ATA66 or 100 controller? If so, what type drive was connected there?
stanton said:
So why am I torturing myself? The consulting end of my digital
photography/graphics business is growing and I NEED to know more
than the average PC user.
Click to expand...
Well, as a second thought, I do admire your tenacity and would suggest that you persevere with this ordeal until you get what you want. After all, I promise that you won't go away without learning something.
stanton said:
The first thing I needed to know is about
video cards and calibration.
Click to expand...
Frankly, I don't think you need some slam-bam-whizo new-wave card with 256mb of RAM. I have a 32-mb single-head Matrox G400 and it is excellent with graphics and I've had no problems with the drivers at all. I tried an Nvidia-based card first but didn't like the look. The array of products available for PC's is admittedly daunting, and it would be advisable to research the computer rags and newsgroups for ideas on things like the best video card for your needs. Frankly, I'd just go with a G450 and be done with it.
stanton said:
information. The rest of the computer really seems simple enough.
Motherboard, processor, power supply, ram, cards, drives. What else
is there besides software? It should have worked fine, right
from the store... the first time...the second time.
Click to expand...
Yes, the first time.

Good post, Stanton. At first I thought you were a Mac zealot trying to defame the PC industry with exagerated tales of gloom and doom, but that obviously isn't the case. You just want to build a good system for a reasonable price, and I think you're on the road to that goal. Now, if you could just keep those guys who are building it in line.
 
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