What would you do, if you were SONY now ?

You know, it's funny how peole don't like memory sticks. Boy, aren't they small and cool? No, they're not as cheap as CF, but they are also a lot smaller. And, who wouldn't want a built-in accessory market? I really see the memory stick as the cost of doing business with Sony. I've learned to like them, and don't mind paying more for them. And from Sony's standpoint, it's a brilliant stroke, if they can support it with enough products to keep customers buying their other electronic products that accept them. Right now, I think they've got that down.

From a marketing standpoint, they are truly awesome.

Pondria said:

Mike M said:

I do market research and statistical analysis for the financial
services industry. Pretty far removed from consumer electronics,
but the concepts of marketing still apply. And the Japanese are
some of the best in the world, especially Sony.

Click to expand...

Ah-ah, see, I was right. You do those stuff seriously.
Thank you very much for giving us a good introduction to the
models. You explained the models very well in plain English that
we can understand. The New Market Development Model seems to have
advantages with risks. Advantage is that you can ignore the
existing rules of the current market. Instead of struggling to
catch up by 1% each year, you can own the market in few years. But
if you fail, you will get zero share. Look beta-max. Another issue
is that you will face the rest of the world. It's you against
everyone else. In order to win this kind of game, it's absolutely
critical that you have clearly superior product technically. And
you should be able to support the new technology by yourself. The
last point is, I think, what distinguishes MemroyStick from
Beta-Max.

Click to expand...

Instead of struggling to

Pondria said:

catch up by 1% each year, you can own the market in few years. But
if you fail, you will get zero share. Look beta-max. Another issue
is that you will face the rest of the world. It's you against
everyone else. In order to win this kind of game, it's absolutely
critical that you have clearly superior product technically. And
you should be able to support the new technology by yourself. The
last point is, I think, what distinguishes MemroyStick from
Beta-Max.

Click to expand...

Two things (kudos first.) You are the first that I have seen in this forum correctly asses the significance of the Memory Stick phenomenon in the market. It is not that the MS itself is taking the market by storm. It is that Sony holds such a vast share of the consumer electronics market and they require the MS.

The raging truth is that Sony has sold umpteen million devices with a Memory Stick inside and a few users have bought extras. Almost none of these devices is going to generate a sale of CF or SM memory.

This is not a testimony to the MS, it is a testimony to Sony and their share of the consumer electronics market.

Now the second thing. You and others consistantly cite the Beta format as a failure. This is only partially true. I will not rehash what may have caused Beta to fail in the consumer market place, except to say that it follows Mike's theories to a "T".

I will say that for over 30 years Sony and Betamax have been the only name of note in professional video. Sony practically single handedly bankrupted Ampex.

If you can sell 100,000 items for a dollar or one item for 100,000 dollars, which do you think is better for the bottom line?

Mike, thanks for that.

Someone recently (I hope only with half his tongue in his cheek) asked me how I know some of the things I do. Here's a big reason. Being in a forum like this and being exposed to lots of great folks with lots of good stuff to share.

Mike M said:

From a marketing standpoint, they are truly awesome.

Click to expand...

For others, I am elaborating more on this point. What Mike's saying is this. SONY may not make a lot of money directly from MS sales. But MS will help SONY to sell more of other products. For instance, you are considering a MP3 player between SONY and Panasonic. You happened to have 64MB MS for your digital camera. You would buy SONY MP3 player just because of that.

Ed, thank you for the Beta information. I'm learning a lot of things today just by hanging in the forum. This is a cool deal ! I didn't know that beta had been successful in the pro-market. Regarding the MS, SONY probably has already made break-even by using MS for their own devices !

Ed said:

Instead of struggling to

Ed (;¬ >) said:

catch up by 1% each year, you can own the market in few years. But
if you fail, you will get zero share. Look beta-max. Another issue
is that you will face the rest of the world. It's you against
everyone else. In order to win this kind of game, it's absolutely
critical that you have clearly superior product technically. And
you should be able to support the new technology by yourself. The
last point is, I think, what distinguishes MemroyStick from
Beta-Max.

Click to expand...

Two things (kudos first.) You are the first that I have seen in
this forum correctly asses the significance of the Memory Stick
phenomenon in the market. It is not that the MS itself is taking
the market by storm. It is that Sony holds such a vast share of the
consumer electronics market and they require the MS.

The raging truth is that Sony has sold umpteen million devices with
a Memory Stick inside and a few users have bought extras. Almost
none of these devices is going to generate a sale of CF or SM
memory.

This is not a testimony to the MS, it is a testimony to Sony and
their share of the consumer electronics market.

Now the second thing. You and others consistantly cite the Beta
format as a failure. This is only partially true. I will not rehash
what may have caused Beta to fail in the consumer market place,
except to say that it follows Mike's theories to a "T".

I will say that for over 30 years Sony and Betamax have been the
only name of note in professional video. Sony practically single
handedly bankrupted Ampex.

If you can sell 100,000 items for a dollar or one item for 100,000
dollars, which do you think is better for the bottom line?

Click to expand...

Once again, I like the way you say it much better.

Yes, I agree. I really, really liked Mike's post on that analysis. And I am now looking at things in an ever-expanding matrix of factors now.

Here is my simple illustration of Sony. Some companies make wine. Fine wines. Sony excels at making mixed drinks. Wonderfully fruity drinks with a bit of a kick, using mixes of components that we've each had before, but the total drink that they serve up is delightful for a certain consumer. Sony does not intend to make wine... not ever. Could they? Sure, but that would actually scare away what is their very core market. Sony is smart. They serve their drinks where the money is to be had.

Pondria said:

By the way, with the arguement, I cannot understand why SONY makes
the Hifi-audio receivers. ;-)

Click to expand...

That one is easy, isn't it? They do that one on the sheer power of their marketing name, not necessarily because of the product.

Pondria said:

Ed, thank you for the Beta information. I'm learning a lot of
things today just by hanging in the forum. This is a cool deal ! I
didn't know that beta had been successful in the pro-market.
Regarding the MS, SONY probably has already made break-even by
using MS for their own devices !

Click to expand...

I've been arguing this point with anti-Beta folks for a long time now. Another "version" of Beta still runs strong in the professional industry. It's always been superior and more widely adopted in that arena.

But even here, MS is not a Beta repeat. The reasons for Beta's failure are not likely to happen to MS due to Sony's changed stance as to licensing, even recently loosening up on their deals, opening the way for more companies to make them as well as the devices that use them.

Pondria said:

Hmmm, I wouldn't be happy with the new King. Now, seriously, why
would SONY do that ? That's my whole point. Their goal is not to
make a killer product to make us happy. F505V, as is, is giving
them good cash flow without any additional spending from their
part. They have figured out who would buy F505V style camera.
Probably, the potential market is small for this camera.

Click to expand...

For the first time in quite a long time, I have a minor disagreement here.

Remember your excellent matrix, once again.

Think of the various groups who would more likely than not pick up a successor product (I was wondering when this question would come up in this thread... the KING returns!!):

1) original F505 users who finally want to move up significantly beyond 2Mp

2) F505V users who want to end their BOCS, focus, slowness, etc.

3) users of S-class cameras who secretly desire an F-model and anticipate that the F-model will give higher res, longer zoom, and Gawd knows what other extras. Oh yessss... many of them want it, and have the S-class only as a hold-over for a while.

4) new users who know the Sony name only, hear about the excitement and enthusiasm following reviews and word of mouth recommendations

I would say that "The Heir to the Throne" is definitely one of the most hotly anticipated Sony Cyber-shots, anticipated in advance and in lieu of news, that Sony has never produced. ))

If I were Sony (to supply an answer to another aspect of your question), I would begin the marketing machine NOW or as soon as possible. The F505 campaign was one of their largest and most successful active campaigns for a digicam. I anticipate this one to be bigger.

Lance said:

Real world Casio cameras have a history of extra features but not
top in class photos. Reviews call Casio images soft and not vivid.

Click to expand...

And before the Casio 3500 I would have agreed with you. As a matter of fact, I was one of those who really joked a lot about the Casio 3500. But starting with that camera (in my own estimation only), Casio had begun a turnaround of sorts.

The 4000 seems to take that level of advancement a step even further. Make that a couple of steps, three steps if the camera truly delivers in the way we think it might.

I'm not a believer yet; but I'm definitely interested. And it cannot help but lead to the question: Does Casio have a 5000-model in the works?

This never ends, does it? Oh, my pockets...

a l b e r t said:

I don't think you should equate camera with girlfriend ;-)

Click to expand...

I kind of liked the comparison, actually. )

a l b e r t said:

How would you feel if the F505V replacement has...?
the same old unreliable battery?

Click to expand...

Ohhhh, a l b e r t. You know how to push my Exposure Compensation too far, my friend.

If Sony used that same stinky FS11 battery, I would definitely have a problem. I don't know how it is performing for the P50 or the P30, but for the F505V successor, if one exists, I would have to take a long hiatus from this forum as I worked my way through a recovery program if they stuck with that battery.

A flagship taking the FS11? Gawd, perish the thought...

a l b e r t said:

That's the exact feeling of users of S70 tring
to upgrade to the S75. I'm not alone, Frank C. is on my side as well.

Click to expand...

Well, sort of... it's not exactly the same. In terms of features and image quality, you guys with the S70 already had what you wanted. You were just hoping for more of it. With the F505V upgrade, we are hoping to actually get even MORE camera than we have, no more BOCS questions, faster focus, more accurate focus, a changed and improved lens system, improved LCD tech, etc. The list could go on. The F505V users are looking for different reasons than the point-n-shoot simplicity of the S70-hopeful. It's a slightly different situation, I think, because the cameras and their users are quite different.

Ed (;¬ >) said:

Two things (kudos first.) You are the first that I have seen in
this forum correctly asses the significance of the Memory Stick
phenomenon in the market. It is not that the MS itself is taking
the market by storm. It is that Sony holds such a vast share of the
consumer electronics market and they require the MS.

Click to expand...

This MS phenomenon is like the Microsoft Windows NT phenomenon. It used to be Novell who has the upper hand in PC network. Once someone introduced an NT server into a Novell network and see how well it runs, eventually, the entire network is switched to NT. I used to call this a virus effect, that eventually got spread over and the host is taken over. Sony in a way is like Microsoft, they used their reputation, sheer size to dominate on they own version of "standard".

Ed (;¬ >) said:

Now the second thing. You and others consistantly cite the Beta
format as a failure. This is only partially true. I will not rehash
what may have caused Beta to fail in the consumer market place,
except to say that it follows Mike's theories to a "T".

I will say that for over 30 years Sony and Betamax have been the
only name of note in professional video. Sony practically single
handedly bankrupted Ampex.

Click to expand...

A few of us use the Betamax analogy to "stir" things us a little. They're not really the same as Sony is "smarter" now. MS will not be a lost battle with so many different Sony consumer electronics in different segments supporting it. But on the digital camera front, I've some reservation on seeing it being successfuly in the high end market. May be like Ulysses was saying, Sony would rather make mixed fruit drinks to make a lot of profit instead of making wine. This means Sony will never have very high end digicam products. At best only to the prosumer level.

Beta's failure has to do with licensing and the lack of pre-recorded video movies. Sony now owns movie studios, if this were the case back in the 80s, Betamax would have been a success. It's really the technologies inside the Betamax machine that is superior, they could have recorded the signals onto a VHS. Sony did the Betamax standard so that people have to buy their machines. They're doing this now to MS.

Ed (;¬ >) said:

If you can sell 100,000 items for a dollar or one item for 100,000
dollars, which do you think is better for the bottom line?

Click to expand...

It depends. If I need to provide support for selling those 100,000 items, then I'd rather sell one item for $100,000. Sony is doing the former, and that's why Sony is not providing support (firmware update, support of other OSes).

Member said:

Member said:

How would you feel if the F505V replacement has...?
the same old unreliable battery?

Click to expand...

Ohhhh, a l b e r t. You know how to push my Exposure Compensation
too far, my friend.

If Sony used that same stinky FS11 battery, I would definitely have
a problem. I don't know how it is performing for the P50 or the
P30, but for the F505V successor, if one exists, I would have to
take a long hiatus from this forum as I worked my way through a
recovery program if they stuck with that battery.

A flagship taking the FS11? Gawd, perish the thought...

Click to expand...

Yes, I was ticked off with the F505 batt. and that's why I didn't go for the F505V. Now you can feel how upset I was when S75 is doing this one step forward one step back drill.

Member said:

Well, sort of... it's not exactly the same. In terms of features
and image quality, you guys with the S70 already had what you
wanted. You were just hoping for more of it. With the F505V

Click to expand...

Not exactly. If S75 maintains S70's sharpness, saturation, and color balance, then I'd say buy it. But it is not. Sony gave us some new features but did not maintain the one very important old feature -- image quality. I mean how could you say on one hand the S75 users prefer "softer" image now when the sharper image on the S70 was being praised so much? And yet on the other hand they're saying the users want more "poping" colors, even the artifical color on the S70 is not enough? If they have to do this, they should make it both sharper and more saturate (converging) as opposed to diverging (less sharpness but more saturated colors). It is as if each image has done an in-camera Auto-level by boosting contrast and colors.

Member said:

upgrade, we are hoping to actually get even MORE camera than we
have, no more BOCS questions, faster focus, more accurate focus, a
changed and improved lens system, improved LCD tech, etc. The list
could go on. The F505V users are looking for different reasons than

Click to expand...

My faith is wearing thin with Sony now after seeing S75/85. I don't know if they could really pull off a real F505V replacement this year.

InfoLithium is a good and a bad thing -- if you only do day trip, that is fine. If you're off for days hiking or camping, it is not. Other manufacturers realize this and they provide alternative power. They either uses AA or like Nikon 995, can use non-rechargable Lithium batt.

a l b e r t said:

Yes, I was ticked off with the F505 batt. and that's why I didn't
go for the F505V. Now you can feel how upset I was when S75 is
doing this one step forward one step back drill.

Click to expand...

Yes, I can empathize more than just a little. :-

a l b e r t said:

My faith is wearing thin with Sony now after seeing S75/85. I

Click to expand...

I don't place the S85 in the same class at this point. Since the jury is still out due to there being no production S85 available. But from what I've seen, the S85 is lacking some of the things that are negatively talked about with the S75.

I see the S75 as more of an aberration due to the strength of the arguments that good and thorough users such as yourself have made. But the S85 restores much of my confidence that Sony can respond. Maybe not in the way that everyone will completely benefit from....

a l b e r t said:

don't know if they could really pull off a real F505V replacement
this year.

Click to expand...

My confidence is high at this point in time.

Nothing has worn that off. With the S75, I was concerned. And I still have a measure of caution. But I'm confident.

a l b e r t said:

InfoLithium is a good and a bad thing --

Click to expand...

I have no problem at all with InfoLITHIUM. It seems that everyone is turning to lithium cells as a means to provide raw power to their cameras. Sony does it better. I have good power management habits, and if I need another battery, I'll get an extra (four FS11 batteries is pretty silly, though. I only got them because I could get them cheaply. By the time any possible successor came out, assuming it used the same battery, my four batteries would all be dead in the garbage).

Ulysses said:

Well, sort of... it's not exactly the same. In terms of features
and image quality, you guys with the S70 already had what you
wanted. You were just hoping for more of it. With the F505V
upgrade, we are hoping to actually get even MORE camera than we
have, no more BOCS questions, faster focus, more accurate focus, a
changed and improved lens system, improved LCD tech, etc. The list
could go on. The F505V users are looking for different reasons than
the point-n-shoot simplicity of the S70-hopeful. It's a slightly
different situation, I think, because the cameras and their users
are quite different.

Click to expand...

I think it is a little contradict to what u suggest. Sony will never make a pro-cam. However, the improvement you and others hope Sony will improve F505v toward more pro-cam features. Isnt that strange? It is sad if Sony never make a pro cam. We know those $$$$ pro cam's price will drop like PC price in 2, 3 yrs. At that time, $700 digital SLR is possible. What sony will do then if they keep porduce P9, S155 with $300 price tag? I choose P&S at this time because of low price. Perhaps I have been using Nikon SLR (35mm and APS) for many yrs, I feel the different of a P&S and a SLR body.I am not a exp photographer but when u experience the better one, it is just hard to turn back.

a l b e r t said:

a l b e r t said:

Two things (kudos first.) You are the first that I have seen in
this forum correctly asses the significance of the Memory Stick
phenomenon in the market. It is not that the MS itself is taking
the market by storm. It is that Sony holds such a vast share of the
consumer electronics market and they require the MS.

Click to expand...

This MS phenomenon is like the Microsoft Windows NT phenomenon. It
used to be Novell who has the upper hand in PC network. Once
someone introduced an NT server into a Novell network and see how
well it runs, eventually, the entire network is switched to NT. I
used to call this a virus effect, that eventually got spread over
and the host is taken over. Sony in a way is like Microsoft, they
used their reputation, sheer size to dominate on they own version
of "standard".

Click to expand...

Interesting analogy. However I see a difference in their strategy. Microsoft does catch up very well. They first get into the market as a new comer. Then they slowly catch up by leveraging everything they have. If you recall how MS has been winning the game against Lotus1-2-3, WordPerfect, NetWare and NetScape by coming from behind, you would be again amazed. SONY style is more emperial. They bomb the market with very superior technology and ask others either to die or to surrender ;-)

a l b e r t said:

a l b e r t said:

Now the second thing. You and others consistantly cite the Beta
format as a failure. This is only partially true. I will not rehash
what may have caused Beta to fail in the consumer market place,
except to say that it follows Mike's theories to a "T".

I will say that for over 30 years Sony and Betamax have been the
only name of note in professional video. Sony practically single
handedly bankrupted Ampex.

Click to expand...

... May be like Ulysses was saying, Sony would rather
make mixed fruit drinks to make a lot of profit instead of making
wine. This means Sony will never have very high end digicam
products. At best only to the prosumer level.

Click to expand...

I agree with you. Camera is not the name of the game that SONY wants to play.

a l b e r t said:

Beta's failure has to do with licensing and the lack of
pre-recorded video movies. Sony now owns movie studios, if this
were the case back in the 80s, Betamax would have been a success.
It's really the technologies inside the Betamax machine that is
superior, they could have recorded the signals onto a VHS. Sony
did the Betamax standard so that people have to buy their machines.
They're doing this now to MS.

a l b e r t said:

If you can sell 100,000 items for a dollar or one item for 100,000
dollars, which do you think is better for the bottom line?

Click to expand...

It depends. If I need to provide support for selling those 100,000
items, then I'd rather sell one item for $100,000. Sony is doing
the former, and that's why Sony is not providing support (firmware
update, support of other OSes).

Click to expand...

NyLazyman said:

I think it is a little contradict to what u suggest. Sony will
never make a pro-cam. However, the improvement you and others hope
Sony will improve F505v toward more pro-cam features. Isnt that
strange?

Click to expand...

Not strange at all. What some of us say specifically is that Sony will probably never make a pro-level SLR camera. I'm talking about the kind of camera such as the D30 or the D1X. Sony does not NEED to compete in this area. That's not where their money or their market is.

What many would like to see, however, is an affordable solution to noise as a top priority.

It's not that current cameras are absolutely noisier than cameras of last year.

It's that we emphasize it more as a problem. We are more educated. A year ago, noise was hardly talked about at all. But it was there. We are more discriminating now. Particularly in the case of new users who read these forums.

Sony will respond because that is where the money is. We are reaching a critical point, I think.

Pondria said:

I agree with you. Camera is not the name of the game that SONY
wants to play.

Click to expand...

Again, I must say: This digital imaging market is where money is. If there is any GOCS, it is in all of the GREEN that Sony makes on the strength of their cameras.

Whether Sony "wants to play" or not may not be relevant. They MUST play because the money is there. And if they want to play a dominant role, then they must turn out great products. And we must remember that a great product does not necessarily mean a "professional" SLR product. They don't need to make that.

They need to make great prosumer cameas in order to remain on top.

So far, they are doing this, with a few hiccups.

Pondria said:

behind, you would be again amazed. SONY style is more emperial.
They bomb the market with very superior technology and ask others
either to die or to surrender ;-)

Click to expand...

Hope Sony is not a repeat of the Pearl Harbor incident 8^)

Ulysses said:

Yes, I agree. I really, really liked Mike's post on that analysis.
And I am now looking at things in an ever-expanding matrix of
factors now.

Here is my simple illustration of Sony. Some companies make wine.
Fine wines. Sony excels at making mixed drinks. Wonderfully fruity
drinks with a bit of a kick, using mixes of components that we've
each had before, but the total drink that they serve up is
delightful for a certain consumer. Sony does not intend to make
wine... not ever. Could they? Sure, but that would actually scare
away what is their very core market. Sony is smart. They serve
their drinks where the money is to be had.

Click to expand...

Tasteful analogy. I like this. You know what. If SONY should make wines, they will make real good ones. I have some trust on them ;-)

Member said:

Member said:

By the way, with the arguement, I cannot understand why SONY makes
the Hifi-audio receivers. ;-)

Click to expand...

That one is easy, isn't it? They do that one on the sheer power of
their marketing name, not necessarily because of the product.

Click to expand...

There is probably another reason for that. BIG company groups in Japan and Korea tend to produce everything even if some of them are not profitable. For instance, Samsung makes food, clothes, medicines, ships, cars, appliances, and semi conductors. They even own stock brokerage firms and insurance companies, colleges, hospitals, news paper, radio stations, publications, galleies ,,,( I can continue for an hour ). So, it's a kind of cultural thing.