What's wrong with Sony?

There has been quite a number of threads in this forum with unhappy Sony customers.

I for one, having used so many Sony products (digicams, CD players, TV, camcorder) I can summarize my feeling with Sony digicam as follows:

1. Memory stick, this is like Sony Betamax strike two. VHS won out at the end, even Sony still makes some Betamax products in the very small high end segment. In the longer run, either Sony will have to yield to CF/microdrive or have dual media slots.

2. The one step forward and one step back approach is very typical Sony business strategy for the past 20 years. They do this so that they can get you to buy the next "improved product". They don't give firmware updates because this is the only way to make sure you have to buy the improved version, in which some of these improvements are not really new features, more like bug fixes. I agree that many manufacturers do that, buy Sony certainly has perfected this skill. If you use their consumer products, you'll find that there is no real top of the line product. There is always something missing on the top of the line compared to the 2nd, 3rd top of the line on the same chain. Looked at S70/S75/S85. S75 has a lot of improvements over the S70, but at the same time, it loses image quality when compared to the S70. It's a hair pulling experience for us who are concerned with total quality to choose between lots of manual features/AF lamp over image quality of the S70 (no CA, sharper image, etc.) And look, the orientation sensor is missing on the S75 too. This is not right.

3. As for Ulysses's claim on Sony not repeating BOCS, sorry, Ulysses, you're wrong on this one. S75 has GOCS written all over if you do close distance flash photography against some white/light colored background.

So will I buy Sony again? Not right now, I'm waiting to see what's available from Canon in the form of a G2. I've played with Nikon 995, it's a bit too bulky to my likings, and the lack of AF lamp, audio and aging lens design doesn't make it too appealing to me.

I've owned Sony F505, S70, S75 and have enough experience with each one to feel what is going on with Sony. I'm a bit surprised Franck C. is on my side right now. Unless Sony changes the above, it's not likely to see me buying or recommending Sony to anyone else.--a l b e r t

a l b e r t said:

1. Memory stick, this is like Sony Betamax strike two. VHS won out
at the end, even Sony still makes some Betamax products in the very
small high end segment. In the longer run, either Sony will have
to yield to CF/microdrive or have dual media slots.

Click to expand...

Not necessarily. If their marketshare growth rate continues, in spring 2002 we'll see:
43% Memory Stick
31% CompactFlash
23% SmartMedia

not bad, eh? They've made impressive progress in the past year. MS isn't dead yet.

Michael Kincaid said:

Not necessarily. If their marketshare growth rate continues, in

Click to expand...

The important word is "IF" here.....usually such curves hit the point of saturation one day. And once a competiting technology is introduced the curve might be steep.....but it is naive to simply enlarge the line along the time axis.

Michael Kincaid said:

spring 2002 we'll see:
43% Memory Stick
31% CompactFlash
23% SmartMedia

Click to expand...

Michael Kincaid said:

not bad, eh? They've made impressive progress in the past year.
MS isn't dead yet.

Click to expand...

Marcus

The odds for MS growth are in Sony's favor. One, the popularity of their digicams will increase usage and demand. And two, unlike the Betamax situation, the MS is used in many of Sony's other products -- ie, MP3 players, camcorders, and now PDAs (handheld devices).

A smart strategy of lowering prices, increasing capacity, and licensing beyond just Lexar to give users more options will only reinforce the MS's growth in the future. It's up to Sony to make that happen, and I believe they will act positiviely on all but the last point (licensing).

While it is true that Sony's digicams are shipping with some problems (BOCS, GOCS), don't all cameras? On the other hand, Sony's products have more going for them than many other lines of consumer goods and this extends to their cameras -- innovation, lots of smart user-friendly features, good-looking designs, solid builds, and reliability.

Like many folks, I own many Sony products and all have been top-notch. My Sony color TV is going on 20 years of use without ever having needed repair once. I think their good reputation for all their consumer products like TVs has fueled their success in selling digicams. And it will continue to do so, as long as they continue to put out good digicams.

Sony, the one and only, may be just marketing hype to some. But to others like me, there's a ring of truth to it as it pertains to consumer products in general.

Marcus said:

Michael Kincaid said:

Not necessarily. If their marketshare growth rate continues, in

Click to expand...

The important word is "IF" here.....usually such curves hit the
point of saturation one day. And once a competiting technology is
introduced the curve might be steep.....but it is naive to simply
enlarge the line along the time axis.

Marcus said:

spring 2002 we'll see:
43% Memory Stick
31% CompactFlash
23% SmartMedia

Click to expand...

Marcus said:

not bad, eh? They've made impressive progress in the past year.
MS isn't dead yet.

Click to expand...

Marcus

Click to expand...

Pat said:

The odds for MS growth are in Sony's favor. One, the popularity of
their digicams will increase usage and demand. And two, unlike the
Betamax situation, the MS is used in many of Sony's other products
-- ie, MP3 players, camcorders, and now PDAs (handheld devices).

Click to expand...

True, MS is not going away due to Sony's various consumer products. But on the digicam front, it is simply not the best choice. As soon as everyone move to 5MP, 6MP, 10MP in a few years, MS will not be a viable solution anymore. Even Olympus realizes this, and is providing dual media slots. My expectation is that Olympus will drop SmartMedia all together.

Pat said:

While it is true that Sony's digicams are shipping with some
problems (BOCS, GOCS), don't all cameras? On the other hand, Sony's

Click to expand...

We're not arguing whether Sony produce excellent products or not, or whether other manufacturers have some problems on their own. We users are very concerned that Sony DOES NOT provide firmware update to fix their camera bugs. Either Sony spends more time finding beta testers on their products to make sure everything is right or give users the choice the ability to update the firmware.

Pat said:

Like many folks, I own many Sony products and all have been
top-notch. My Sony color TV is going on 20 years of use without
ever having needed repair once. I think their good reputation for

Click to expand...

TV is old tech, most name brands don't fail. Sony's reliability before 1995 (the new CEO) is a matter of luck. Both my friend and I had too many Sony products that failed just right after the warranty. I had a Sony 14" TV failing on me just after 1 year. That was back in 1990.

Pat said:

Sony, the one and only, may be just marketing hype to some. But to
others like me, there's a ring of truth to it as it pertains to
consumer products in general.

Click to expand...

I read a survey somewhere that 70+% of people buy Sony camcorder and digicam due to the use of Carl-Zeiss lens. I wonder how many video/camera products can Sony sell if it is not because of CZ? I very much doubted that JVC uses video lens of lesser quality than Sony for similar models. Although I must admit that I have a Sony camcorder partly because of CZ myself. The other factor is because Sony is the inventor of mini-DV, and this one I agree is a properly designed standard. I don't believe MS is, because there is already very good working standard out there (ie: CF). Sony is simply using it's manufacturing and marketing muscles to push MS as an "alternate" standard. I think will succeed in driving down SmartMedia, SD and the like, but it'll never over take CF.

The users of S70 are angry, because the CZ lens on the S75/85 no longer produces the same quality image as the S70. This puts it in the same league as the rest, like Canon, Casio. It is almost as if Sony suddenly are not using CZ lens anymore, thus leveling the playing field, and people will start to evulate other factors, such as the use of storage media.

In fact, I'd very much like to see Sony uses MD as their next generation storage media. Kodak realizes this already, and is pumping $$$ into DataPlay. Eventually, we want cheap disposable media. We buy it cheap, give a copy to digital film developing store, and friends, and not even needing to worry about losing it due to cost.

MiniDisc can be bought here for US$1.25 a piece, and MD is supposed to be able to store 128MB of uncompressed data. I think Sony should further develop it to use blue laser and bump it up to 500MB per disc. Yes, if Sony makes a MD/MP3/Digicam all-in-one unit using MD, I'll buy it, and tell everyone to buy Sony. Sony really have the chance to dominate, but I don't know if they realize it or not.

It's not going to happen, at least not in 2002.

http://www.compactflash.org

Or if you have $2,500 US to order the professional market analysis from IDC, they'll tell what's going to happen to MS, CF, SM in gory details.

http://www.itresearch.com/alfatst4.nsf/UNITABSX/W23634?OpenDocument

Michael Kincaid said:

Not necessarily. If their marketshare growth rate continues, in
spring 2002 we'll see:
43% Memory Stick
31% CompactFlash
23% SmartMedia
not bad, eh? They've made impressive progress in the past year.
MS isn't dead yet.

Click to expand...

Hi there, a l b e r t -

I won't go on and on with an experienced user like yourself. But some of your arguments do surprise me a little bit (BETA??).

You sound pretty angry. Not that I blame you. Some of your points sound quite valid.

Phil is correct in that Sony is most likely taking the claims about color and noise seriously. What may come of it is anyone's guess.

But I still do not qualify this as a BOCS situation:

There is still no overwhelming supporting documentation about it. And it may not even be happening in all cameras. Is it happening in only a few units of a select series of serial numbers? Is it happening due to user error? Is it happening in all modes of operation? Is it happening during certain lighting conditions. More questions remain unanswered, and so far, I see a lot of complaint but not enough effort to help figure out what's happening.

We've got to do more than say "it's too green".

And on the other side of things, there are a lot of content users who see nothing. Everyone else is so divided on these things that it probably hurts the cause more than any other factor.

I have never seen anything in Sony quite like the S75 situation.

What was it I said about the S75 being Sony's so-called "B*stard Son" that should never have been?

And for those who are angry about the S75 and were able to return it, there is always the S85 whispering in the wind ....

a l b e r t said:

a l b e r t said:

The odds for MS growth are in Sony's favor. One, the popularity of
their digicams will increase usage and demand. And two, unlike the
Betamax situation, the MS is used in many of Sony's other products
-- ie, MP3 players, camcorders, and now PDAs (handheld devices).

Click to expand...

True, MS is not going away due to Sony's various consumer products.
But on the digicam front, it is simply not the best choice. As
soon as everyone move to 5MP, 6MP, 10MP in a few years, MS will not
be a viable solution anymore.

Click to expand...

I believe Sony has current plans to increase MS capacity so that it is somewhat comparable to current CF capacity. And just like CF went to a CF II standard to accommodate the microdrive, it is not inconceivable for Sony to do something similar. Perhaps a MS II standard in the future?

a l b e r t said:

a l b e r t said:

While it is true that Sony's digicams are shipping with some
problems (BOCS, GOCS), don't all cameras? On the other hand, Sony's

Click to expand...

We're not arguing whether Sony produce excellent products or not,
or whether other manufacturers have some problems on their own. We
users are very concerned that Sony DOES NOT provide firmware update
to fix their camera bugs.

Click to expand...

You have a point there.

a l b e r t said:

a l b e r t said:

Like many folks, I own many Sony products and all have been
top-notch. My Sony color TV is going on 20 years of use without
ever having needed repair once. I think their good reputation for

Click to expand...

TV is old tech, most name brands don't fail. Sony's reliability
before 1995 (the new CEO) is a matter of luck. Both my friend and
I had too many Sony products that failed just right after the
warranty. I had a Sony 14" TV failing on me just after 1 year.
That was back in 1990.

Click to expand...

The point is not whether something is old tech or new tech, but the reliability of the product a company produces. And in my experience ( and that of my family and friends) Sony's electronic products consistently are at the head of the pack for reliability, durability and longevity. Whehter you're talking about a TV, Walkman, or whatever.

a l b e r t said:

a l b e r t said:

Sony, the one and only, may be just marketing hype to some. But to
others like me, there's a ring of truth to it as it pertains to
consumer products in general.

Click to expand...

I read a survey somewhere that 70+% of people buy Sony camcorder
and digicam due to the use of Carl-Zeiss lens. I wonder how many
video/camera products can Sony sell if it is not because of CZ? I
very much doubted that JVC uses video lens of lesser quality than
Sony for similar models. Although I must admit that I have a Sony
camcorder partly because of CZ myself.

Click to expand...

Their use of the CZ lens is precisely what makes Sony such a leader in consumer products. It doesn't matter where the lens comes from, the fact is they are providing a superior lens on their camera and using smart marketing to make sure consumers are aware of it. The CZ appeal is one reason I bought my 505V. The CZ decision could be considered innovative, smart, agressive, consumer-focused --- all reasons that have made Sony one of the top consumer brands.

a l b e r t said:

I don't believe MS is, because there is already
very good working standard out there (ie: CF). Sony is simply
using it's manufacturing and marketing muscles to push MS as an
"alternate" standard. I think will succeed in driving down
SmartMedia, SD and the like, but it'll never over take CF.

Click to expand...

Perhaps it will not overtake CF soon. But does it really matter? As reported on this site, MS is growing fast and overtaking smart media. The market for removable media is large enough that at least two standards can exist. The only real question is whether or not the MS can become established enough to make it as equally affordable as CF. MS is not there yet, but trends are positive.

a l b e r t said:

The users of S70 are angry, because the CZ lens on the S75/85 no
longer produces the same quality image as the S70. This puts it in
the same league as the rest, like Canon, Casio. It is almost as if
So suddenly are not using CZ lens anymore, thus leveling the
playing field, and people will start to evulate other factors, such
as the use of storage media.

Click to expand...

I really can't comment about the relative merits of those cameras since I haven't used them. But there sure seem to be a lot of satisfied S75 users in this forum! Maybe they can comment about this point.

Pat

Member said:

You sound pretty angry. Not that I blame you. Some of your points
sound quite valid.

Click to expand...

I don't know if you can call that angry, but I'm certainly not very happy with the latest Sony offerings (S75/85). F505 was really ahead of its time when it was introduced, it was way ahead of the competitions. But the latest Sony offerings are no longer ahead of the competitions. The latest Casio QV-4000 blows the S85 out of the water IMO. And I think it'll be cheaper too.

Member said:

But I still do not qualify this as a BOCS situation:
There is still no overwhelming supporting documentation about it.
And it may not even be happening in all cameras. Is it happening in
only a few units of a select series of serial numbers? Is it
happening due to user error? Is it happening in all modes of
operation? Is it happening during certain lighting conditions. More
questions remain unanswered, and so far, I see a lot of complaint
but not enough effort to help figure out what's happening.

We've got to do more than say "it's too green".

Click to expand...

I've seen enough S75 samples and my own testing to say this GOCS is true. If you go to imaging-resource, and load up the house sample for S75, S85 and compared them to S70, 990, 995, D30, G1, and you can tell immediately that the S75/85 samples have greenish tint to them. If you have nothing to compare, you probably won't notice it. I didn't notice that with S75 initially because I don't have access to a S70 for comparison.

People don't find S75's GOCS problem is because those users are generally new digicam users. It's just like non F505V users not feeling BOCS is such a big deal at all.

Member said:

And for those who are angry about the S75 and were able to return
it, there is always the S85 whispering in the wind ....

Click to expand...

AFAIK, S85 still has the GOCS problem...

Sony will probably ignore users like myself. They see that most users are happy with their products and the problem is not with their cams, but with a small selected group of users.

I'm waiting to see what's coming from Canon. I'll get the D30 replacement is there one coming soon, if not, D30 is certainly on top of my list.

I don’t really understand your concern about the storage media Sony uses. Sony has already announced that they will be producing 128MB and 256MB Memory Sticks—if you really want to want to trust a whole bunch of images to one memory card. I’d rather use several smaller cards and spread the risk, small though it might be.

As to MiniDisk, Sony made such a camera in Japan several years ago and it didn’t do too well. Their 3-inch CD-R models are doing quite well and if they prove to be highly popular the entire Mavica line will most likely use that media in the future. Three-inch CD-Rs can be purchased for a little as 69 cents each with 156MB or more of storage—how cheap can you get? Why would Sony also want to produce a MD camera, and why wouldn’t you buy a CD-R camera if you feet that that format is superior to a memory card?

Rodger

I am with you.

To me, SONY is a heavily engineering driven company. Their strategy is to earn the top money with technical break-through's. From time to time, they release the "milestone" products with very new technology that comepetitions cannot challenge for 2 years. BUT they never polish the product in fine details. For instance, they make WEGA XBR TV which is two notches above any competition. Then, they don't spend time to fine tune the H,V convergence of the picture tube. They are like the kids who are very smart but get low grades because they forget homeworks.

The S75/S85 is a totally different story. First of all, they are not "milestone" products that SONY put their spirit on. They are just annual stop-gaps which SONY core R&D might not even be involved. Probably a Marketing guy put together some minor feature list and handed them over to Manufacturing directly ;-)

Memory stick will succeed. It doesn't have advantage in digital cameras. As you said, CF has huge adavantage especially with the Microdrive. But there are range of devices which requires MS. Those tiny MP players, cellular phones, PDF's, smart remo-cons, etc. may prefer memory sticks.

a l b e r t said:

There has been quite a number of threads in this forum with unhappy
Sony customers.

I for one, having used so many Sony products (digicams, CD players,
TV, camcorder) I can summarize my feeling with Sony digicam as
follows:

Click to expand...

It's because 128MB or 256MB is not enough for longer trip. I want 1GB. I don't want to switch sticks and discs and worry about losing multiple sticks/discs. My 1GB microdrive will always be inside the camera. Their CD camera is a bit on the bulky side, and CD300 has no optical viewfinder.

Yes, I know about the MD camera Sony made in 1998, I was in Tokyo that year and saw that. It is all a matter of whether Sony wants to drive a particular technology. If Sony chooses to drive MD as standard, they can do it. They choose to drive MS because profit margin is higher on MS than MD. Don't you like the idea of a MD camera that doubles as MD/MP3 player?

Rodger Carter said:

I don’t really understand your concern about the storage
media Sony uses. Sony has already announced that they will be
producing 128MB and 256MB Memory Sticks—if you really want to
want to trust a whole bunch of images to one memory card.
I’d rather use several smaller cards and spread the risk,
small though it might be.

As to MiniDisk, Sony made such a camera in Japan several years ago
and it didn’t do too well. Their 3-inch CD-R models are
doing quite well and if they prove to be highly popular the entire
Mavica line will most likely use that media in the future.
Three-inch CD-Rs can be purchased for a little as 69 cents each
with 156MB or more of storage—how cheap can you get? Why
would Sony also want to produce a MD camera, and why wouldn’t
you buy a CD-R camera if you feet that that format is superior to a
memory card?

Rodger

Click to expand...

Pondria said:

I am with you.

Click to expand...

Thanks for being on my side.

Pondria said:

picture tube. They are like the kids who are very smart but get low
grades because they forget homeworks.

Click to expand...

BINGO! Can't put it better in my words. I've seen my friend's 34" WEGA and the left and right sides of the picture are out of focus.

Pondria said:

Memory stick will succeed. It doesn't have advantage in digital
cameras. As you said, CF has huge adavantage especially with the

Click to expand...

I agree, but not in the digicam area.

a l b e r t said:

1. Memory stick, this is like Sony Betamax strike two. VHS won out
at the end, even Sony still makes some Betamax products in the very
small high end segment. In the longer run, either Sony will have
to yield to CF/microdrive or have dual media slots.

Click to expand...

I don't think so, they will be very happy to keep selling MS at huge margins to those who think paying for sony "quality" is worth it.

MS used to annoy me, because there were Sony cameras that demonstrated such superiority (s70) that I felt I may be compelled to use this sony cash grab technology.

But now there is no clear advantage of the S75/85 lens over the one used by Canon and Casio and they are both innovating faster on features, so I no longer feel like there is any chance of buying a Sony camera in my future.

a l b e r t said:

2. The one step forward and one step back approach is very typical
Sony business strategy for the past 20 years. They do this so that
they can get you to buy the next "improved product". They don't
give firmware updates because this is the only way to make sure you

Click to expand...

There is absolutely no excuse for the lack of firmware upgrades. I have a GPS that is over a year old and the upgrades keep making it a better unit all the time. There have been over 10 updates (they actually squeeze in new features). I have a lot of respect for a company that offers this kind of support on older products.

a l b e r t said:

2nd, 3rd top of the line on the same chain. Looked at S70/S75/S85.
S75 has a lot of improvements over the S70, but at the same time,
it loses image quality when compared to the S70. It's a hair
pulling experience for us who are concerned with total quality to
choose between lots of manual features/AF lamp over image quality
of the S70 (no CA, sharper image, etc.)

Click to expand...

They took away the only reason to even look at a Sony IMO. The lens is now the effective equivalent of the G1 and Casios.

a l b e r t said:

So will I buy Sony again? Not right now, I'm waiting to see what's
available from Canon in the form of a G2. I've played with Nikon
995, it's a bit too bulky to my likings, and the lack of AF lamp,
audio and aging lens design doesn't make it too appealing to me.

Click to expand...

I am interested in seeing what Canon does with the G2. In the other new cameras released they have switched from CYM to RGB filters and this seems to have given them a marked improvement in colours, hopefully the G2 will do the same along with other tweaks. A more ergonomic body would be nice, but I doubt it. I think the 995 is a frankenstien monster.

Peter

a l b e r t said:

Their CD camera is a bit on the bulky side, and
CD300 has no optical viewfinder.

Yes, I know about the MD camera Sony made in 1998, I was in Tokyo
that year and saw that. It is all a matter of whether Sony wants
to drive a particular technology. If Sony chooses to drive MD as
standard, they can do it. They choose to drive MS because profit
margin is higher on MS than MD. Don't you like the idea of a MD
camera that doubles as MD/MP3 player?

Click to expand...

One thing I don't get is you're saying CD base cams are bulky. But a MD is not much smaller comparing to a mini-CD, and the Sony MD cam isn't that much smaller than the CD300. So why do you think if it's any better? The current consumer CD-burner is at 16X and Sony throws in a 4X on their camera. I'm not sure how fast does MD writes but if is slower than 4X on a CD, then they have to pour in more money on R&D to make it acceptable. Aside from speed, popularity is an issue. MD isn't as popular in the US than in Asia, the fad only started a little over a year ago. Now it has much die down and people are talking about MP3. The combo cam/MP3 player have been tried before, the only major maker continue to make one is Fuji. I was looking at the 40i about a year ago but it seems kinda silly now. What happens if you're listening to music and you saw something interesting? Chances are good that you only have 1 flash card with you and it's loaded up with music. I think many companies are missing the point when they tried to combine a lot of things together.
BTW a 32MB MP3 player is only $50!

I think the reason why Sony created FD/CD-Mavica line is because there are 2 types of consumers when it comes to storage medium. One is with the flash/hard magnetic type media which enjoys the ability of fast read/write and delete but have to use some sort of connection inorder to upload. The other is the type that is offering a cheap mass storage who doesn't care if they have to wait and can stick their CDs to whatever PC they have, no connection required. Sony is the only company able to see this market and have been successful doing it.

To me the MD is more of a Betamax than the Memory Stick.

a l b e r t said:

There has been quite a number of threads in this forum with unhappy
Sony customers.

I for one, having used so many Sony products (digicams, CD players,
TV, camcorder) I can summarize my feeling with Sony digicam as
follows:

1. Memory stick, this is like Sony Betamax strike two. VHS won out
at the end, even Sony still makes some Betamax products in the very
small high end segment. In the longer run, either Sony will have
to yield to CF/microdrive or have dual media slots.

2. The one step forward and one step back approach is very typical
Sony business strategy for the past 20 years. They do this so that
they can get you to buy the next "improved product". They don't
give firmware updates because this is the only way to make sure you
have to buy the improved version, in which some of these
improvements are not really new features, more like bug fixes. I
agree that many manufacturers do that, buy Sony certainly has
perfected this skill. If you use their consumer products, you'll
find that there is no real top of the line product. There is
always something missing on the top of the line compared to the
2nd, 3rd top of the line on the same chain. Looked at S70/S75/S85.
S75 has a lot of improvements over the S70, but at the same time,
it loses image quality when compared to the S70. It's a hair
pulling experience for us who are concerned with total quality to
choose between lots of manual features/AF lamp over image quality
of the S70 (no CA, sharper image, etc.) And look, the orientation
sensor is missing on the S75 too. This is not right.

3. As for Ulysses's claim on Sony not repeating BOCS, sorry,
Ulysses, you're wrong on this one. S75 has GOCS written all over
if you do close distance flash photography against some white/light
colored background.

So will I buy Sony again? Not right now, I'm waiting to see what's
available from Canon in the form of a G2. I've played with Nikon
995, it's a bit too bulky to my likings, and the lack of AF lamp,
audio and aging lens design doesn't make it too appealing to me.

I've owned Sony F505, S70, S75 and have enough experience with each
one to feel what is going on with Sony. I'm a bit surprised Franck
C. is on my side right now. Unless Sony changes the above, it's
not likely to see me buying or recommending Sony to anyone else.
--
a l b e r t

Click to expand...

I have owned 3 Sony's. DSC-S70, and V505 and now a CD300.
1.Sony doesn't Support Mac platform on the CD300.
2. Color Balance way off on the CD300.
Sony Doesn't seem to care about their customers.
I will be looking at anouther camera down the road and will NOT be Sony.
Rick

a l b e r t said:

The latest Casio QV-4000 blows the S85 out of
the water IMO. And I think it'll be cheaper too.

Click to expand...

Have you seen or read anything other than their claim that it will be "under $1,000" statement?

The Olympus C-4040Z will likely be above $1,000.

What about the Toshiba?

The Casio site in Japan said nothing about the price. Since Casio is not 1st tier in the digicam world, I'd imagine their price be cheaper. I mean look at 3500, it has a good price and it includes a 340MB microdrive.

I've not looked at Toshiba, they stike me as even behind Casio in this digicam market. Maybe Sony charge people a lot on the 4MP CCD just to make the S85 competitive.

Ulysses said:

a l b e r t said:

The latest Casio QV-4000 blows the S85 out of
the water IMO. And I think it'll be cheaper too.

Click to expand...

Have you seen or read anything other than their claim that it will
be "under $1,000" statement?

The Olympus C-4040Z will likely be above $1,000.

What about the Toshiba?

Click to expand...

a l b e r t said:

The Casio site in Japan said nothing about the price. Since Casio
is not 1st tier in the digicam world, I'd imagine their price be
cheaper. I mean look at 3500, it has a good price and it includes
a 340MB microdrive.

I've not looked at Toshiba, they stike me as even behind Casio in
this digicam market. Maybe Sony charge people a lot on the 4MP CCD
just to make the S85 competitive.

Click to expand...

I always thought of Toshiba as a notch above Casio for some reason. Maybe it's because I had a Toshiba once. I haven't analyzed the current situation.

BTW, I must have missed another thing... is the G1 said to come with a Microdrive? Or is it supplied with a CF card?

Also, I'm still not sure about the build quality, by reputation.

Sony's brand equity has been forged with decades of high-quality production and thoroughly innovative engineering. Sony-haters can cite Betamax all they want, despite the fact that it's technically a stronger format than VHS. Sony has a proven track record of constantly moving the leading edge forward in electronics. They are not 100% successful, but what company is?

Sony's high-end products cater to early-adopters and gadget lovers and here's truth that some people on this board can't deal with:

1. Digital cameras are creating a whole new segment of photographers. They are people who never owned a 35mm camera before and the brands (Nikon, Olympus, Canon) mean absolutely nothing to them. These people are willing to drop ~$500 on a camera because there are no processing fees to drive the actual cost of "trying" to be a good photographer through the roof.

2. Sony has an outstanding brand, is prominently displayed at electronics shops due to marketing agreements, and focuses on features and gimmicks which make their products attractive to this emerging market.

For better or worse, it's all about the brand and Sony kicks all these other little companies up and down the block on that end.