False Sense of Economy?

I have seen several make the claim that Sony cameras are a good buy because the sales price of the S75,S85 was (say $100-150 less) than the competition with similar features. If one looks at only the price of the camera, this is true, but I find it very short sighted ecomomy.

Every digicam photograher will buy more memory; the amount that comes with the camera is just so you can check it out and see that it works when you open the box. Any photographer worth their salt will buy 128 mb or more if they have a 3 mp camera. In fact, this is one area where much more memory is much more better! You're not using your camera to its capability if you are always concerned about running out of memory. Its clear that memory sticks are almost 2X the price of CF (128 mb CF can be had or less than $80). With the S85 and beyond, file sizes continue to get larger and even more memory will be needed make use of S85 features such as bracketing. When Sony finally intorduces a 1 gb MS ($$$???) IBM will have a 6 gb microdirve (and microdrive competition to keep the prices reasonable).

I believe the lower pricing of S75/85 is a marketing gimmick to make the camera apperar cheaper. However, Sony will pocket the difference when you purchase your supply of Sony memory sticks. The marketing staff at Sony are very aware of this trade off, don't get caught in their short term pricing trick. If you are a new camera buyer, figure on purchasing 2x the amount of memory you think you'll need (the likely outcome) and add that to the price to the camera. Do the same with the competition and weigh your choices based upon that calculation. Get a Sony for its features and performance, not for its apparently low price.
Regards, Mike K.

Interesting point but I think you're on the agressive side...

I've had a 64MB ($80 a year ago) stick as my main memory source for over a year with two 8mb as extras... Vacations are the only time I feel spread a little thin.... It would be nice to have a 128mb, but hardley a necessity.

With S75 set to standard, I know get double the amount of pix as I was getting with my S70, so by addding that feature SONY has severly cooled me on getting a new stick!

And even if we accept the memory arguement, SONY has an unbeatable power sysytem and Carl Zeiss lens, which suddenly puts SONY back in first in my book. So we pay a little more for memory sticks? Big deal, we get InfoLithium and Zeiss. Fair trade in my book...

On a separate note, I MS better. Not a usual quality you look for in storage, but hey, they're cute, sexy even.

I dont believe for a moment that STF members have bought their camera because of the price. Until the S75, Sony cameras were not cheap. (Not that the S75 was cheap).

I bought the S75 because it was reveiwed and recommended by the professionals in many sites and because it would do everything I needed. In the UK, the G1, the 3040 and the s75 are the same price.

Take the 505v......it was certainly not cheap....just ahead of its time!

Andy

While I agree that MS is much more expensive than CF/mircodrive, I'm certain that many users (including new comers) don't go out and buy Sonys just because of the camera's lower price tag.

I find Sony cameras have much better menu layout than most cameras (This makes the camera much more easier to use). Also the overall quality (both physical and the pictures) are really good. So when comparing with other manufacturers the benefits certainly outweighs the negatives (in your case the cost of MS).

-gel who is waiting for the price of MS to fall so he can have more than 64MB!

Andy said:

I dont believe for a moment that STF members have bought their
camera because of the price. Until the S75, Sony cameras were not
cheap. (Not that the S75 was cheap).

Click to expand...

I got my S70 for $650 when 990's were still going for 799-899.

I orginally was drawn to sony because it was the only way I could afford a 3MP cam...

gel said:

While I agree that MS is much more expensive than CF/mircodrive,
I'm certain that many users (including new comers) don't go out and
buy Sonys just because of the camera's lower price tag.

Click to expand...

I didn't mean to imply that folks purchase Sonys only because of price. Of course not, you had better like the camera and it should suit your style of photography. This post is not a knock on the Sonly cameras, only a cautionary note on a sneaky marketing practice that some are buying hook line and sinker.

papa said:

I find Sony cameras have much better menu layout than most cameras
(This makes the camera much more easier to use). Also the overall
quality (both physical and the pictures) are really good. So when
comparing with other manufacturers the benefits certainly outweighs
the negatives (in your case the cost of MS).
-gel who is waiting for the price of MS to fall so he can have more
than 64MB!

Click to expand...

The corallary to this argument is that the higher price of memory is strong inducement not to purchase enough of it. Of course 64 mb is equivalent to say 1 1/2 rolls of film at a higher JPEG setting, as much as one might use in a P&S film camera during a weekend. But thats my point, when you don't have enough memory you will tend to use it like film, conservatively. Digicams are capapble of so much more: instant image review, bracketing, movies, stitched panoramas, better macros, etc. Since shots don't cost anything with digital, one can afford to be quite experimental and creative, and in doing so, learn to be a better (digital) photogapher much faster. Digital is a different photgraphic paridigm from film. Pleanty of memory helps us explore those differences to our advatage.
Regards, Mike K

Mike K said:

Get a Sony for its features
and performance, not for its apparently low price.

Click to expand...

I tend to agree. I have had an S70 now for over a year, and since I went out and bought three 64Mb memory sticks and an extra battery, I'm effectively locked into the Sony camera line. . . unless I sell all that stuff along with my camera. But I can't go out and buy 4 AA NIMH's and a CF memory stick when I want cause it just won't work.

Point being, if something better comes along from a different vendor (Dimage7 maybe ), I have to pony up for the extra memory and batteries. . . again. Of course if the Next Better Thing is Sony, then I'm in luck.

What really turned me off however is the proprietary power connector. C'mon Sony, for crying out loud, why in the world do you have a closed system? I know that for one guy (me), you're definitely turning me of off your equipment.

And let's not even get into the firmware upgrade or customer service issues. That's a whole other thread.

High handed-ness and pitiful customer service doesn't endear me to a manufacturer. I don't care how good their products are. . . which by the way, the S70 really is.

My $.0199

Regards,
Mike

Mike, you make good points about how more memory give us for freedom to explore.

I only want to add that other makers sometimes do things like not including a rechargeable battery with their cameras. The Nikon 880 comes to mind. Not sure about Nikon 9xx series. Figure another $50 for a decent set of batteries and charger.

Mike K -

Your argument is funny for several reasons. Some of it I even agree with.

Obviously it's a marketing thing. No one ever said that it wasn't, least of all Sony themselves. At the same time, the camera itself really IS a very good value: The S75 at the time when it was reviewed and released for purchase was absolutely one of the best in class for the price; the same can be said for the S85 (witness the higher price of the equivalent Oly 4040z, but I'm not sure of the Caso 4000 price...).

Your post makes some sense to me for a person that intends to buy solely on price alone. My personal purchasing habits tell me to not purchase a camera on price; others have different habits and priorities. But I find that generally if you purchase a camera for the features and less on the financial aspect, you will always be satisfied with it. Purchase on the dollars, and you'll run into problems somewhere along the way as you'll always be compromising your wants versus your pennies at some point. I can't buy like that anymore. I was never happy with the results. Nevertheless, the S75 is, as Phil says in his review, very hard to beat for the money.

Mike K said:

Any photographer worth their salt
will buy 128 mb or more if they have a 3 mp camera. In fact, this
is one area where much more memory is much more better! You're not
using your camera to its capability if you are always concerned
about running out of memory.

Click to expand...

Wow, Mike. You just slammed maybe half the photographers in here with that one.

Personally, I didn't even own a second 64MB stick until I'd had my camera for about 10 months. I'd become somewhat proficient with my usage of the F505V, and I was forced to take my photography more seriously as I wanted it to really count. I learned to be a decent manager of my images both on and off camera, partly because I only had one 64MB stick. One could easily make the argument that while more storage is better, it doesn't necessarily make one a better photographer, and can even make one sloppier on a per picture basis (not saying that I WILL argue that... but one could).

Mike K said:

When Sony finally intorduces a 1 gb MS ($$$???) IBM
will have a 6 gb microdirve (and microdrive competition to keep the
prices reasonable).

Click to expand...

Let's stick with what's here today for now; that's a tough enough discussion.

Mike K said:

Get a Sony for its features and performance, not for its apparently low price.

Click to expand...

Which is sorta what I've been saying. But there is no practical doubt about the S75/S85 being great values when they were released. If one chooses not to get a handfull of Memory Sticks because of their budget or usage pattern, it will not prohibit them from becoming more "serious" or more proficient in their photography.

fg said:

On a separate note, I MS better. Not a usual quality you
look for in storage, but hey, they're cute, sexy even.

Click to expand...

I find it interesting that some of those who use a LOT of different cameras are also rather interested in the Memory Stick.

For example, Dave Etchells says in several of their Cyber-shot reviews that while they initially found it confusing that Sony would come out with another format, they found themselves actually liking the Memory Stick more than the others.

Phil has already mentioned that he has no problem at all with the Memory Stick.

And, Yes, I also think the Memory Stick is rather cute. It's functional, and there are circumstantial reasons to believe that it may last longer than other formats in terms of wear and tear. It's cool.

In the end, I don't really care. I get the camera, and I get the memory that makes my camera go.

fg said:

I orginally was drawn to sony because it was the only way I could
afford a 3MP cam...

Click to expand...

Now THAT is an interesting statement.

I do believe that most Cyber-shot and Mavica owners definitely did not buy on price. This is because as Andy alluded, Sony cameras were NEVER the cheapest cameras around, at least not at MSRP.

However, the S75 changed that trend, along with the P50 and P30 price drops. I would dare say that many S75 purchasers, if not all, bought the S75 partly because of its value.

Mike K said:

I didn't mean to imply that folks purchase Sonys only because of
price. Of course not, you had better like the camera and it should
suit your style of photography. This post is not a knock on the
Sonly cameras, only a cautionary note on a sneaky marketing
practice that some are buying hook line and sinker.

Click to expand...

I understand what you mean and if you were saying "Sony is a piece of S*it!" I wouldn't of reply in the first place! You're certainly have a thoughtful post here!

As for Sony's marketing, I think their pricing made them VERY competitive(I think they rank behind Olympus in terms of sells for DCs). But I don't think the buyer felt "taken in" after they brought their cameras. Most of the time people even purchase a MS or two along with their camera, so they know the price and size of the MS.

Mike K said:

The corallary to this argument is that the higher price of memory
is strong inducement not to purchase enough of it. Of course 64 mb
is equivalent to say 1 1/2 rolls of film at a higher JPEG setting,
as much as one might use in a P&S film camera during a weekend.

Click to expand...

Exactly! I could (just barely) get by with 64MB on everyday basis. If a longer trip comes along I must buy more MS or find alternatives. But this is true for other manufacturers as well.

Mike K said:

But thats my point, when you don't have enough memory you will tend
to use it like film, conservatively.

Click to expand...

Not necessary on this one. As you said" instant image review". This is what I done each and every time I took a pic. If it looks good I keep, if not I delete. It just mean I have to judge each image more carefully and delete the ones that doesn't look right. In someway I find this might even benefited my digital experience since I don't want to make the same mistake twice.

Mike K said:

Digicams are capapble of so
much more: instant image review, bracketing, movies, stitched
panoramas, better macros, etc.

Click to expand...

Bracketing- If you mean that taking one pic at various exposures my camera don't have this feature and I usually do this with PS.

Pano- I usually have to set this to a lower res in order for it to be manageable.

Mike K said:

Since shots don't cost anything
with digital, one can afford to be quite experimental and creative,
and in doing so, learn to be a better (digital) photogapher much
faster. Digital is a different photgraphic paridigm from film.
Pleanty of memory helps us explore those differences to our
advatage.

Click to expand...

Mike K said:

Regards, Mike K

Click to expand...

I guess having a bigger memory means having bigger piece of a pie. While it's nice to get full on it, a nice snack isn't all that bad either. Just have to hit that delete button more often!

Mike K said:

I didn't mean to imply that folks purchase Sonys only because of
price. Of course not, you had better like the camera and it should
suit your style of photography. This post is not a knock on the
Sonly cameras, only a cautionary note on a sneaky marketing
practice that some are buying hook line and sinker.

Click to expand...

I know you're not knocking Sony cameras at all. No, not at all.

At the same time, you are a particular TYPE of user. There are many other types. And Sony knows that in their larger demographic. Not everyone will purchase multiple flash memory cards. For a variety of reasons, they may not want them, need them, or be able to afford them at the time of purchase. Maybe they'll add them to their arsenal as the price drops.

The marketing is not as simple as you paint it. For some, the marketing is true, and in their case is just as valid.

Mike K said:

The corallary to this argument is that the higher price of memory
is strong inducement not to purchase enough of it... Pleanty of memory
helps us explore those differences to our

Click to expand...

I dunno about that. Plenty of memory, as I mentioned up above, can also be a reason to waste and not really pay attention to what one is doing. One can get sloppy because, "Oh well, I have a lot of memory." There are users who do that, too.

Your corallary is true, but only up to a point and only for a certain type of user.

gel said:

As for Sony's marketing, I think their pricing made them VERY
competitive(I think they rank behind Olympus in terms of sells for
DCs).

Click to expand...

They are more likely very far ahead of Oly worldwide, though Oly may have a lead in certain markets. Certainly not in the U.S. (which I know is NOT the Copernican center of the universe)

Mike L. said:

I don't care how good their products are. . . which by the way, the S70 really is.

Click to expand...

But isn't that all that most users really care about? What good are the accessories and flash cards to you if you don't give much of a big fat hoot about the camera itself?

Then you're stuck again, only you're stuck with a huge Microdrive or CF card full of ugly pics, and you have that Gawd-awful camera in your hands to remind you of that with every single deteriorated shot you take. )

How's that for painting a picture of woe?

For a great picture, I'll gladly pay a little something extra.

The memory stick means I will probably restrict my camera upgrade to a 5 or 6mp 505v ( in its future specification and model number).....how will I cope with such difficulties?

How they punish us!

I love my S75, but had I realised how little I would use( or miss ) my viewfinder, the 505v would have been my choice. So roll on the 6mp version....I am starting to save now for this cheap camera, sneakily marketed by some clever people.

Thank you Sony!

Andy

Ulysses said:

fg said:

I orginally was drawn to sony because it was the only way I could
afford a 3MP cam...

Click to expand...

Now THAT is an interesting statement.

I do believe that most Cyber-shot and Mavica owners definitely did
not buy on price. This is because as Andy alluded, Sony cameras
were NEVER the cheapest cameras around, at least not at MSRP.

However, the S75 changed that trend, along with the P50 and P30
price drops. I would dare say that many S75 purchasers, if not all,
bought the S75 partly because of its value.

Click to expand...

Don't forget the S70... my recolection was I got mine for far less than the 990...

Member said:

I love my S75, but had I realised how little I would use( or miss )
my viewfinder, the 505v would have been my choice.

Click to expand...

You really won't miss it til it's gone...

Andy (6-12 months from now)

Member said:

I love my F606 [ya like that? I haven't seen anyone do that one yet-fg], but

had I realised how much I miss my viewfinder, the S95 would have been > > my choice.

Click to expand...

As a Sony Stockholder, I applaud the MS.

Why pay royalties to Sandisk wen you have the expertise and manufacturing capacity to build your own? Of course it has to be different enough so that you don't get shut down for defeating the other guys patents, but that was easy considering Sony's FAR superior Electronics R&D.

So from a biz point of view thay have turned an expense to a profit.I wish that some of my other investmenst were so astute.

But whats in it for me, the consumer???

Well, if you read all the Sony stuff you can get your hands on you will find that they have a vision.

They want to control the world. "First we take Poland...." no, no not that KIND of world. The "electronics" world in ALL of it's implementations.
Of COURSE they say it "softer".
"we want to supply the world with advanced and integrated solutions".
What's this got o do with the price of tea? or for that matter MS?
(Hint-think about the "integrated" part.)
EVERYTHING needs memory these days, because everything is intelligent.

Your palm top. Yes, your desktop too. Your Cell phone. Your portable music player. Your Camcorder. Your thermal Satelite Tribunder. And yes your brand new, agressively priced S75.

Now Mike, you tell me that 128MB MS costs $150.

But what if I can use the same MS in my camcorder? Is it now "effecfively" down to $75? And if I can use it in my new PDA, is it now down to $50?
And so on and so on.

THIS is Sony's stated direction. They want to be your supplier of the memory that goes in all these devices as a "standard".

And if you buy into this, then the price of a multi useable (as opposed to multi use) Memory stick is not very much at all.

JUST want to buy the camera and don't like that other stuff Sony builds? Then you are in the minority. I prefer Sony portable everything. (not so sure about the laptop, but.what the heck, it takes my MS? THAT's an advantage.
"Captive" marketing? You bet.

Think of people coming the other way......."GEE that new Sony S75 looks GREAT. AND it has the added feature that I can use my Camcorder Memory Sticks in it. Super! No additional cost like with SOME cameras!"

Just my ,05 cents (Adjusted for STF)

Homer

Mike K said:

I have seen several make the claim that Sony cameras are a good buy
because the sales price of the S75,S85 was (say $100-150 less) than
the competition with similar features. If one looks at only the
price of the camera, this is true, but I find it very short sighted
ecomomy.
Every digicam photograher will buy more memory; the amount that
comes with the camera is just so you can check it out and see that
it works when you open the box. Any photographer worth their salt
will buy 128 mb or more if they have a 3 mp camera. In fact, this
is one area where much more memory is much more better! You're not
using your camera to its capability if you are always concerned
about running out of memory. Its clear that memory sticks are
almost 2X the price of CF (128 mb CF can be had or less than $80).
With the S85 and beyond, file sizes continue to get larger and even
more memory will be needed make use of S85 features such as
bracketing. When Sony finally intorduces a 1 gb MS ($$$???) IBM
will have a 6 gb microdirve (and microdrive competition to keep the
prices reasonable).
I believe the lower pricing of S75/85 is a marketing gimmick to
make the camera apperar cheaper. However, Sony will pocket the
difference when you purchase your supply of Sony memory sticks.
The marketing staff at Sony are very aware of this trade off, don't
get caught in their short term pricing trick. If you are a new
camera buyer, figure on purchasing 2x the amount of memory you
think you'll need (the likely outcome) and add that to the price to
the camera. Do the same with the competition and weigh your
choices based upon that calculation. Get a Sony for its features
and performance, not for its apparently low price.
Regards, Mike K.

Click to expand...

Mike K said:

I believe the lower pricing of S75/85 is a marketing gimmick to
make the camera apperar cheaper. However, Sony will pocket the
difference when you purchase your supply of Sony memory sticks.

Click to expand...

I believe you are right. Like those cheap inkjet printers. Epson, Canon, HP sell the printers at cost and make all profits on the ink cartridges.

Razors. Gilette gives the handles away for free, then charges ridiculously high prices for the blades.

Polaroid cameras... remember those? Camera was really cheap, and the film was super-expensive.

No one is forcing you to put up with this. I, for one, print to a laser printer which in the long run costs less than inkjet. I buy the generic blade for the razor.

Sony is selling more digital cameras than anyone else, so obviously their marketing scheme is working for them.