F717 Macro Reverse lens

JoshW27

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Hello All,

I own a F717 and am really in to Macro Photography. I've seen through this forum that most users use the Canon 250D. Which seems to be a really great lens and a good solution.

I was curious (from reading in other forums) if it would be possible to reverse mount a lens for Macro on this camera. I hear reports of customer doing this with other cameras and getting amazing results, far better than I've seen with Macro lenses.

Any one try this, or know of a setup that would work???

Thanks for your input,

Josh
 
Danny's (nzmacro) site is a marvellous resource for this:
http://www.nzmacro.50megs.com/
Hello All,

I own a F717 and am really in to Macro Photography. I've seen
through this forum that most users use the Canon 250D. Which seems
to be a really great lens and a good solution.

I was curious (from reading in other forums) if it would be
possible to reverse mount a lens for Macro on this camera. I hear
reports of customer doing this with other cameras and getting
amazing results, far better than I've seen with Macro lenses.

Any one try this, or know of a setup that would work???

Thanks for your input,

Josh
--
Mike
Melbourne

 
I was curious (from reading in other forums) if it would be
possible to reverse mount a lens for Macro on this camera. I hear
reports of customer doing this with other cameras and getting
amazing results, far better than I've seen with Macro lenses.

Any one try this, or know of a setup that would work???
Hi Josh,

Yes, you can definitely reverse a lens on your F717. Try a search in this forum for "reversed lens". One of the forum participants is R2D2, and he uses reversed lenses on his F717. He takes a lot of insect and spider macros.

The magnification will be approximately the ratio of the focal length of the camera's lens to the focal length of the reversed lens. Therefore, with maximum zoom of 190mm lens on the F717, if you used a commonly available 50mm reversed lens, you would get a magnification 3.8. This will fill the frame with a fairly small insect, and is probably the practical limit of magnification for normal use.

Any brand of lens will work. Fast lenses are best for stacking (to reduce vignetting), and they should be used at full open aperture. Some lenses don't stack well, so try a lens before you buy it to make sure it works.

With high magnifications, hand holding gets nearly impossible, and a macro focus rail becomes really handy. It can be difficult to find the subject in the view finder when the magnification is large. I highly recommend an extra-sturdy tripod, a wired remote, and a macro focus rail for high magnifications.

I have a Nikon 50mm f/1.4 lens and a Schneider 105mm f/2.8 Xenotar lens that I use reversed. Both have some vignetting when used alone on my F828. Fortunately, you can stack them with diopters, and I also own both a Canon 250D and a 500D. All vignetting disappears when I use either diopter with the 105mm lens or both diopters with the 50mm lens. Stacking a lens on a diopter increases the magnification slightly.

Enlarging lenses work well for reversing, and a popular choice is a Schneider 135mm f/4.5 Componon enlarging lens. This lens is no longer made, but used ones are often available. Schneider also made a 135mm f/4.5 Componar design, but the Componon is a higher quality lens. This is fast for an enlarging lens, and enlarging lenses are optimized for the magnifications used in macro work. My Schneider 105mm f/2.8 lens is a large format lens. Enlarging lenses and large format lenses do not have focus mechanisms, so you get a little more working distance...a slight edge. I bought my Schneider lens on eBay, and I bought my Nikon lens at a local camera store.

I probably use the 105mm lens or the diopter lenses the most. As you know, depth-of-field is reduced with higher magnifications, so I tend to limit the magnification for subjects that aren't very flat. Also, the subject size often dictates the choice of magnification.

I hope this helps.

Lynn
 
You've been a tremendous help thanks.

I think I will first get the Canon 250D and go from there. As my needs and expertise increases, so will my taste I'm afraid. I may look in to getting a DSLR here pretty soon, so I don't want to put too much cash in to it. When if I get a "system" I will be buying the lenses for that system. I'm starting to outgrow my F717. And I figure I could use the 250D on multiple cameras with the correct step up/down ring.

thank again for taking the time!

-Josh
I was curious (from reading in other forums) if it would be
possible to reverse mount a lens for Macro on this camera. I hear
reports of customer doing this with other cameras and getting
amazing results, far better than I've seen with Macro lenses.

Any one try this, or know of a setup that would work???
Hi Josh,

Yes, you can definitely reverse a lens on your F717. Try a search
in this forum for "reversed lens". One of the forum participants is
R2D2, and he uses reversed lenses on his F717. He takes a lot of
insect and spider macros.

The magnification will be approximately the ratio of the focal
length of the camera's lens to the focal length of the reversed
lens. Therefore, with maximum zoom of 190mm lens on the F717, if
you used a commonly available 50mm reversed lens, you would get a
magnification 3.8. This will fill the frame with a fairly small
insect, and is probably the practical limit of magnification for
normal use.

Any brand of lens will work. Fast lenses are best for stacking (to
reduce vignetting), and they should be used at full open aperture.
Some lenses don't stack well, so try a lens before you buy it to
make sure it works.

With high magnifications, hand holding gets nearly impossible, and
a macro focus rail becomes really handy. It can be difficult to
find the subject in the view finder when the magnification is
large. I highly recommend an extra-sturdy tripod, a wired remote,
and a macro focus rail for high magnifications.

I have a Nikon 50mm f/1.4 lens and a Schneider 105mm f/2.8 Xenotar
lens that I use reversed. Both have some vignetting when used alone
on my F828. Fortunately, you can stack them with diopters, and I
also own both a Canon 250D and a 500D. All vignetting disappears
when I use either diopter with the 105mm lens or both diopters with
the 50mm lens. Stacking a lens on a diopter increases the
magnification slightly.

Enlarging lenses work well for reversing, and a popular choice is a
Schneider 135mm f/4.5 Componon enlarging lens. This lens is no
longer made, but used ones are often available. Schneider also made
a 135mm f/4.5 Componar design, but the Componon is a higher quality
lens. This is fast for an enlarging lens, and enlarging lenses are
optimized for the magnifications used in macro work. My Schneider
105mm f/2.8 lens is a large format lens. Enlarging lenses and large
format lenses do not have focus mechanisms, so you get a little
more working distance...a slight edge. I bought my Schneider lens
on eBay, and I bought my Nikon lens at a local camera store.

I probably use the 105mm lens or the diopter lenses the most. As
you know, depth-of-field is reduced with higher magnifications, so
I tend to limit the magnification for subjects that aren't very
flat. Also, the subject size often dictates the choice of
magnification.

I hope this helps.

Lynn
 
I think I will first get the Canon 250D and go from there.
Josh,

If I only had one, it would be a 250D. Make sure you get a 58mm size...Canon also makes the 250D in 52mm.

As you progress, you may want to add another 250D or a 500D so you can stack them for more magnification. I chose to get the 500D for more versatility and slightly less magnification. I can use them both to get +2, +4, or +6 diopters. With two 250Ds, the only choices are +4 or +8 diopters.

With a DSLR you will probably get several lenses anyway. You can always try stacking them at that time if you want. However, a more popular method for high magnification macros with DSLRs is to use a long macro lens with a 2x teleconverter behind it. For additional magnification, you can add an extension tube.

Lynn
 
Hi, Lynn. I'm not the OP, but I appreciate the info you posted!

Do you have a particular brand/model of reversing ring that you use? I've been looking for one to use with my Nikon D70 and 50mm 1.8 lens, but I totally forgot it would be useful for my 717 as well!

Thanks in advance for any info!
I think I will first get the Canon 250D and go from there.
Josh,

If I only had one, it would be a 250D. Make sure you get a 58mm
size...Canon also makes the 250D in 52mm.

As you progress, you may want to add another 250D or a 500D so you
can stack them for more magnification. I chose to get the 500D for
more versatility and slightly less magnification. I can use them
both to get +2, +4, or +6 diopters. With two 250Ds, the only
choices are +4 or +8 diopters.

With a DSLR you will probably get several lenses anyway. You can
always try stacking them at that time if you want. However, a more
popular method for high magnification macros with DSLRs is to use a
long macro lens with a 2x teleconverter behind it. For additional
magnification, you can add an extension tube.

Lynn
--
===
jezlyn.smugmug.com
 
Do you have a particular brand/model of reversing ring that you
use? I've been looking for one to use with my Nikon D70 and 50mm
1.8 lens, but I totally forgot it would be useful for my 717 as
well!
I have two reversing rings that I bought from two different sources. I bought one on eBay, and it works OK, but it has a smooth O.D. I usually leave it on the reversed lens, but the couple of times I wanted to take it off I had quite an effort because the threads were tight. The second one I bought from B&H, and it has a knurled O.D. It comes off easily because it is possible to get a grip on it. I would recommend the ones from B&H. I could be wrong, but I believe it was made by Bower.

Lynn
 
Try it this way: place the ring flat on the palm of your hand and firmly press as you turn. This keeps one from slightly deforming the ring which only makes it harder to remove. YMMV

--
Busch

I have to take my photos seriously; no one else does!

http://www.pbase.com/busch
 
Here is a good deal on 3 of them.
This doesn't look like a very good deal to me. These are Bower single-element diopters. They aren't even close to the quality of the dual-element 250D. The listing is very misleading when it compares the Bower diopter lenses to the 250D.

A couple of years ago, I bought a brand-new set of 58mm Hoya HMC multi-coated single-element diopters for about $15 on eBay. I think the shipping was $5. You may or may not be able to get as good a deal now, but there are always a lot of diopters listed on eBay.

The eBay listing's description of how the lenses work is pretty funny. I quote:
"And the new "close-up filters" are sensitive to these quantum levels, and only let through photons fully-charged with energy. That's why they let you take sharp photographs of flowers and insects, while the lower-powered photons from the background turn into a kind of fuzz, or bokeh* as it's technically known".
His only accurate statement is that bokeh is a little more technical than "kind of fuzz".

Lynn
 
One person here at STF bought one of these and seems to be happy with it. Others have been disappointed with it. I think you basically get what you pay for.
This is the real thing. However, I think the price is around the same price that B&H sells them. If you keep watching eBay, you can get some deals. About a year ago someone listed several brand-new 250Ds in separate auctions at the same time. They went for less than $40 each. I bought my like-new 250D on eBay for $48 last summer. Items on eBay tend to go for less in the summer because there aren't as many bidders to bid up the prices.

Lynn
 
Another really informative series of posts. (Tips hat)

I think Lynn & I have about identical camera bags! (except for the 828 part that is ;-D )

The 250D (4 diopter) would indeed be a great place to start Josh. If you want to get closer yet, I think that 6 - 8 diopters hits the sweet spot. My reversed 135mm f4.5 enlarging lens gets to about 7 diopters. The reversed 50 weighs in at about 15 diopters.

Here is a previous thread that Lynn & I tag-teamed on:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1009&message=10536769

One note to Jezlyn.

The ring used in this application is actually referred to as a Macro Coupler (for mounting two lenses face to face). The Reversing Ring is a different animal and usually has a proprietary bayonet mount for mounting a lens reversed on the (SLR) camera body (or bellows, etc). Only one lens is used. It can achieve magnification ratios of up to 3:1 (depending on lens), and is very effective for SLR & DSLR macro-holics.
R2
Do you have a particular brand/model of reversing ring that you
use? I've been looking for one to use with my Nikon D70 and 50mm
1.8 lens, but I totally forgot it would be useful for my 717 as
well!

Thanks in advance for any info!
I think I will first get the Canon 250D and go from there.
Josh,

If I only had one, it would be a 250D. Make sure you get a 58mm
size...Canon also makes the 250D in 52mm.

As you progress, you may want to add another 250D or a 500D so you
can stack them for more magnification. I chose to get the 500D for
more versatility and slightly less magnification. I can use them
both to get +2, +4, or +6 diopters. With two 250Ds, the only
choices are +4 or +8 diopters.

With a DSLR you will probably get several lenses anyway. You can
always try stacking them at that time if you want. However, a more
popular method for high magnification macros with DSLRs is to use a
long macro lens with a 2x teleconverter behind it. For additional
magnification, you can add an extension tube.

Lynn
--
Good judgment comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgment.

http://www.pbase.com/jekyll_and_hyde/galleries
 
... or other sources.

I looked on B&Hs Web site and couldn’t find anything that sounded like it would be for a 828 and diopter filters. Since you are not trying to add on a whole (heavy) lense and reverse it, it would seem like a very inexpensive item. When I looked for reverse lense, I got stuff that... just didn’t look like it was what I need. Can you give me and others a link to B&H (or other places)... or any other hints?
Do you have a particular brand/model of reversing ring that you
use? I've been looking for one to use with my Nikon D70 and 50mm
1.8 lens, but I totally forgot it would be useful for my 717 as
well!
I have two reversing rings that I bought from two different
sources. I bought one on eBay, and it works OK, but it has a smooth
O.D. I usually leave it on the reversed lens, but the couple of
times I wanted to take it off I had quite an effort because the
threads were tight. The second one I bought from B&H, and it has a
knurled O.D. It comes off easily because it is possible to get a
grip on it. I would recommend the ones from B&H. I could be wrong,
but I believe it was made by Bower.

Lynn
--
Jon
http://cybermice.smugmug.com
 
... or other sources.
I looked on B&Hs Web site and couldn’t find anything that sounded
like it would be for a 828 and diopter filters.
Jon, there are two different aims going here. With close-up lenses (which aren't filters but look similar), you don't need any kind of adapter at all provided you can find such a lens that has the same filter thread as your camera's lens. In the case of the popular Canon 250D, for example, you can buy it in a 58 mm size which allows you to screw it directly to the lens of an F828 or F7*7. If you were using a Nikon 6T or Oly MNOC-35 close-up lens, then you would need a "step-up ring" to match your camera's 58 mm thread to those lenses' 62 mm one. But you do NOT need a reversing ring at all for this purpose.

BTW a "dioptre" (or US: "diopter") is a unit of refractive power (the reciprocal of the focal length in metres) rather than a tangible object. Although the term is commonly used to refer to CU lenses as a matter of colloquial convenience -- and I'm not taking a shot at those who do find it convenient to use this way :-) -- its use in this context is really a bit like saying "I had to buy a new volt for my car" when what you actually meant was "battery".
Since you are not
trying to add on a whole (heavy) lense and reverse it, it would
seem like a very inexpensive item. When I looked for reverse lense,
I got stuff that... just didn’t look like it was what I need. Can
you give me and others a link to B&H (or other places)... or any
other hints?
In the case of reverse-mounting an entire camera lens, which is what this thread began about, FYI here's where a search on "reverse adapter" led me in the B7H Web site:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=pagination&A=nextPage&Q=&catId=1&shs=reverse+adapter&ci=1&ac=&al=&bl=&sb=ps&sq=asc&fi=all&com_82172_REG=&com_82173_REG=&com_82174_REG=&com_82175_REG=&com_82176_REG=&com_82177_REG=&com_82178_REG=&com_82179_REG=&com_82180_REG=&com_82181_REG=&com_82182_REG=&com_82183_REG=&com_82184_REG=&com_82185_REG=&com_82187_REG=&com_82188_REG=&com_82191_REG=&com_99268_REG=&com_99270_REG=&com_108520_REG=&pn=2
"Reversing ring" is the other one to try.

These aren't particularly cheap, since they're not sold in the same quantities as step-up and step-down rings for filters. If you do have a need for one of these, then your best bet is to obtain a couple of cheap secondhand filters (many camera retailers have them lying around), take the glass out and join them with epoxy adhesive.

--
Mike
Melbourne

 
So... if you want to try reversing the 250D or similar filter/lense, you need a device such as this one?:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=34763&is=REG
Put the device on the 828, then the 250D...? Sorry if I appear a little dense.
... or other sources.
I looked on B&Hs Web site and couldn’t find anything that sounded
like it would be for a 828 and diopter filters.
Jon, there are two different aims going here. With close-up lenses
(which aren't filters but look similar), you don't need any kind of
adapter at all provided you can find such a lens that has the same
filter thread as your camera's lens. In the case of the popular
Canon 250D, for example, you can buy it in a 58 mm size which
allows you to screw it directly to the lens of an F828 or F7*7. If
you were using a Nikon 6T or Oly MNOC-35 close-up lens, then you
would need a "step-up ring" to match your camera's 58 mm thread to
those lenses' 62 mm one. But you do NOT need a reversing ring at
all for this purpose.

BTW a "dioptre" (or US: "diopter") is a unit of refractive power
(the reciprocal of the focal length in metres) rather than a
tangible object. Although the term is commonly used to refer to CU
lenses as a matter of colloquial convenience -- and I'm not taking
a shot at those who do find it convenient to use this way :-) --
its use in this context is really a bit like saying "I had to buy a
new volt for my car" when what you actually meant was "battery".
Since you are not
trying to add on a whole (heavy) lense and reverse it, it would
seem like a very inexpensive item. When I looked for reverse lense,
I got stuff that... just didn’t look like it was what I need. Can
you give me and others a link to B&H (or other places)... or any
other hints?
In the case of reverse-mounting an entire camera lens, which is
what this thread began about, FYI here's where a search on "reverse
adapter" led me in the B7H Web site:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=pagination&A=nextPage&Q=&catId=1&shs=reverse+adapter&ci=1&ac=&al=&bl=&sb=ps&sq=asc&fi=all&com_82172_REG=&com_82173_REG=&com_82174_REG=&com_82175_REG=&com_82176_REG=&com_82177_REG=&com_82178_REG=&com_82179_REG=&com_82180_REG=&com_82181_REG=&com_82182_REG=&com_82183_REG=&com_82184_REG=&com_82185_REG=&com_82187_REG=&com_82188_REG=&com_82191_REG=&com_99268_REG=&com_99270_REG=&com_108520_REG=&pn=2
"Reversing ring" is the other one to try.

These aren't particularly cheap, since they're not sold in the same
quantities as step-up and step-down rings for filters. If you do
have a need for one of these, then your best bet is to obtain a
couple of cheap secondhand filters (many camera retailers have them
lying around), take the glass out and join them with epoxy adhesive.

--
Mike
Melbourne

--
Jon
http://cybermice.smugmug.com
 
So... if you want to try reversing the 250D or similar
filter/lense, you need a device such as this one?:
No, there is absolutely nothing to be gained by reversing a close-up lens, any more so than would be the case with a filter.

A close-up lens on the other hand looks, and is used, much like a hand-held magnifying glass (which, BTW, people also use very successfully for close-up work).

The only time "reversal" becomes relevant is when we're talking about entire complex lens assemblies such as SLR lenses or enlarging lenses which can be used in front of your camera lens for extreme macro work well beyond the magnification that you can get from a close-up lens. With these, reverse mounting is easier to arrange (using the filter threads) than, for example, the otherwise necessary fabrication of a complex mount which mimics the body-to-lens bayonet (or special threaded) mount belonging to the camera for which the extra lens was originally made.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=34763&is=REG
Put the device on the 828, then the 250D...? Sorry if I appear a
little dense.
That device is a special purpose reverse adapter, which appears to feature a Mamiya bayonet mount. This allows it to be placed on the front of a Mamiya bellows such that a camera lens can then be reverse mounted on it via its 58 mm filter thread.

The sort of reverse adapter being discussed here has a male filter thread (in this case 58 mm diameter) machined on both front and rear. It acts as a "gender changer", to borrow a term used more commonly in data cabling, which allows you to mount a typical SLR camera lens, with a female 58 mm filter thread, on the front of your camera which is likewise furnished with a female 58 mm filter thread.

You don't need such an adapter for a CU lens like the 250D: you just screw the 250D's male thread directly into your camera lens. The 250D does feature a female thread at the front, but this is used only for adding a filter in combination with the 250D, or for stacking further CU lens(es) in front of it.

I.e. the fitting of a CU lens (not a camera interchangeable lens) is a lot simpler than you're perceiving it to be, and needs no additional adapter since you don't need to reverse it.

--
Mike
Melbourne

 
Thanks. I thought I could gain something by turning the 250D around.
So... if you want to try reversing the 250D or similar
filter/lense, you need a device such as this one?:
No, there is absolutely nothing to be gained by reversing a
close-up lens, any more so than would be the case with a filter.

A close-up lens on the other hand looks, and is used, much like a
hand-held magnifying glass (which, BTW, people also use very
successfully for close-up work).

The only time "reversal" becomes relevant is when we're talking
about entire complex lens assemblies such as SLR lenses or
enlarging lenses which can be used in front of your camera lens for
extreme macro work well beyond the magnification that you can get
from a close-up lens. With these, reverse mounting is easier to
arrange (using the filter threads) than, for example, the otherwise
necessary fabrication of a complex mount which mimics the
body-to-lens bayonet (or special threaded) mount belonging to the
camera for which the extra lens was originally made.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=34763&is=REG
Put the device on the 828, then the 250D...? Sorry if I appear a
little dense.
That device is a special purpose reverse adapter, which appears to
feature a Mamiya bayonet mount. This allows it to be placed on the
front of a Mamiya bellows such that a camera lens can then be
reverse mounted on it via its 58 mm filter thread.

The sort of reverse adapter being discussed here has a male filter
thread (in this case 58 mm diameter) machined on both front and
rear. It acts as a "gender changer", to borrow a term used more
commonly in data cabling, which allows you to mount a typical SLR
camera lens, with a female 58 mm filter thread, on the front of
your camera which is likewise furnished with a female 58 mm filter
thread.

You don't need such an adapter for a CU lens like the 250D: you
just screw the 250D's male thread directly into your camera lens.
The 250D does feature a female thread at the front, but this is
used only for adding a filter in combination with the 250D, or for
stacking further CU lens(es) in front of it.

I.e. the fitting of a CU lens (not a camera interchangeable lens)
is a lot simpler than you're perceiving it to be, and needs no
additional adapter since you don't need to reverse it.

--
Mike
Melbourne

--
Jon
http://cybermice.smugmug.com
 
BTW a "dioptre" (or US: "diopter") is a unit of refractive power
(the reciprocal of the focal length in metres) rather than a
tangible object. Although the term is commonly used to refer to CU
lenses as a matter of colloquial convenience -- and I'm not taking
a shot at those who do find it convenient to use this way :-) --
its use in this context is really a bit like saying "I had to buy a
new volt for my car" when what you actually meant was "battery".
That is a great analogy Mike. I'm one of the ones who often used the term to describe the CU lenses, but never again.
As R2D2 pointed out in another post, the correct term for the required ring if one wants to reverse stack an SLR or enlarger lens onto another lens is a "macro coupler" and not a "reversing ring". Here are the macro couplers that are available from B&H: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?ci=1&sb=ps&pn=1&sq=desc&InitialSearch=yes&O=SearchBar&A=search&Q=*&shs=macro+coupler&image.x=5&image.y=7 As you can see, they cost $7.95 each. However, they do not offer every size that may be required. I once had a need for a 52mm to 72mm macro coupler. I couldn't find one, so I epoxy glued two Cokin adapter rings together and it worked well.

So, from this time forward, I'm not going to refer to CU lenses as "diopters", and I'm not going to refer to macro couplers as "reversing rings".

Thanks for the laugh Mike! I actually just bought a new "volt" for my car. :-)

Lynn
 
Hi Lynn,

Thanks for the heads-up with the macro couplers. I'd struck the term before, but was a bit hazy on whether it was generic or one particular manufacturer's creation. And it does indeed return the best range of general purpose ones at B&H.

They don't make it easy, either, when one of mfr talks of "Speedlite" and the the next one "Speedlight" -- don't ask me to nominate which is whose without looking it up -- and of course then there's Sony who seems to make a sport out of coming up with its own new terms.

Interestingly my local retailer, who's run a dedicated camera shop business for ages and is what I'd call pretty well informed, hadn't heard of macro couplers -- by whatever name -- being used in years, and I ended up using a similar solution to yours to fabricate a 50/58 mm coupler, for all of $5 for two secondhand filters. It was a shame to wreck one of them, as it was in very nice condition optically.
That is a great analogy Mike. I'm one of the ones who often used
the term to describe the CU lenses, but never again.
...
Thanks for the laugh Mike! I actually just bought a new "volt" for
my car. :-)
Oh, the world seems to adopt these terms every once in a while with an enthusiasm that can be hard to shake loose. I'd hate to think how many "furriners" the Brits have mystified with casual references to Hoovering the floor and so on :-)

Cheers,

Mike
Melbourne

 

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