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Reporting In: 7D vs. 20D Comparison (lengthy)

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on the 20d lcd is better than the 7d. I used the 10d back in May and shooting both jpeg and Raw, I shot a image of myself. To see if the image was sharp, I can zoom in to my eyeballs. I like that feature. This is something that should've been on the 7d no matter what. Raw should have zoom period. My eyes are pretty good, I can if the image is sharp on the lcd. I do beleive that the 9d will be the killer camera that will get it right and compete with the 1d mark. I'll be waiting for this camera.

I like the idea of owning the 7d and a future 9d both backing each other up.
David McGaughey said:
BTW, if you NEED AS, then go with the 7D. Simple.
markpsf said:
Vance:

I may have missed this elsewhere, but what is the "magnification"
you refer to.

BTW, I'm appreciating all of this data. I'm still deciding between
the 20D and 7D and leaning towards the 7D because I need the
stabilization component because of a hand shake.

Thanks.

Mark
Click to expand...
--
http://www.dmmphotography.com
Click to expand...
 
The 7D has more pixels but spread out over a larger area and 20D has fewer pixels but spread out over a smaller area. It is a trade-off--larger LCD with a lower pixel density or smaller LCD with a higher pixel density. But that is mathematics.

I can see the difference in practical use when I study the playback of the images I make with 20D. I can more readily assure critical sharpness by zooming in than I could with 10D. By boosting the pixel density over what we had with 10D Canon improved our ability to zoom in and determine sharpness. It seems that this holds true for 7D as well.
H4ng0ver said:
D7 LCD is 2.5" with total pixels of 207,000 pixels
20D LCD is 1.8" with total pixels of 118,000 pixels
Smaller but higher resolution on 20D LCD
Click to expand...
--
Vance Zachary
http://www.pbase.com/photoworkszach
http://www.photoworksbyzachary.com
 
The 20d LCD is 72% of the size of the 7D and the pixel count of the 20d is 57% of the 7d. I am clearly missing something here and if so I apologize
Tim
H4ng0ver said:
Jay Williams said:
Jay
http://www.jpwphoto.com
Vance Zachary said:
because the screen resolution is higher with the 20D, you can
actually tell better whether the image is critically sharp
significantly more often when zooming in. It is because of the
resolution.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
Andrew
http://h4ng0ver.smugmug.com
smugmug.com, coupon code: P398zmgQ5QBQw
Click to expand...
 
because the zoom feature on both cameras is different and the playback of the 7D cannot be magnified to the extent it can with the 20D. So while I can verify this with certainty for the 20D vs 10D, I must confess that a side by side comparison between 20D and 7D is not practical. Again, it is apples and oranges. I do feel more comfortable that I can determine critical sharpness by zooming with 20D than 7D.

However, I can more readily determine focus through the viewfinder with 7D over 20D.

--
Vance Zachary
http://www.pbase.com/photoworkszach
http://www.photoworksbyzachary.com
 
Just for the helluva of it I measured my 20d LCD . It is 1 in x 1.5 inch. The The 1.8 is a diagonal measurement. Taking the 118000 pixelss , yoiu get therefore 74920 pixels per inch or ~ 7500 pixels per .1 inch.

Since I don't have a 7d yet, I cannot do the calculations for the pixek density of the 7d.

Tim
Vance Zachary said:
I can see the difference in practical use when I study the playback
of the images I make with 20D. I can more readily assure critical
sharpness by zooming in than I could with 10D. By boosting the
pixel density over what we had with 10D Canon improved our ability
to zoom in and determine sharpness. It seems that this holds true
for 7D as well.
H4ng0ver said:
D7 LCD is 2.5" with total pixels of 207,000 pixels
20D LCD is 1.8" with total pixels of 118,000 pixels
Smaller but higher resolution on 20D LCD
Click to expand...
--
Vance Zachary
http://www.pbase.com/photoworkszach
http://www.photoworksbyzachary.com
Click to expand...
 
First of all, thanks a bunch for spending so much time and effort on this project. I'm sure hundreds more people than are replying appreciate it!

My question has to do with what you're calling "spot focussing."
Vance Zachary said:
THE AF SYSTEM of 7D, when well calibrated and used properly, is
fast and accurate; it also offers more options than the 20D. such
as spot focusing...
Click to expand...
You can use each of the nine points individually on the 20D, and you can control them with the joystick thingy using your thumb. In all honesty, coming from a D30, even the outer AF points seem lightning fast and accurate.

Am I misunderstanding you, or did you not realize this?

Again, thanks for the comparison.
--
JCDoss
 
Hi Timothy,

I do not know how did you arrive to your calculations, but according to my semi-forgotten trigonometry, the 20D LCD size is actually only 52% of the D7's, so it has slight advantage in pixel density obviously being almost twice smaller. We also know nothing of pixel size in each LCD panel. Just comparing pixel density does not give us a complete picture as the panel with larger pixels will be much sharper then a comparable panel with smaller pixels at the same density. Simply put, two waterlemons put together would be much more visible to you then two cherries spread to cover the same distance as waterlemons :-)
Timothy S Broadley said:
The 20d LCD is 72% of the size of the 7D and the pixel count of
the 20d is 57% of the 7d. I am clearly missing something here and
if so I apologize
Tim
Click to expand...
 
Vance,

First of all, thanks for the nice and very informative review.

I kow you commented on noise differences between 7D and 20D cameras but would it be possible for you to provide two controlled shots made with each camera with 100% crops to be able to visually assess high-level ISO noise? Something of the nature Phill provides in his reviews. Since I assume both cameras have very good characteristics up to ISO 800, I would really like to see how ISO 1600 and 3200 compares.
Thanks,

netscorer.
 
In order to properly compare the two camera's noise performance, you would need to resample the 20D image down to the size of the 7D. This would give the comparative noise for any given print size.
netscorer said:
Vance,

First of all, thanks for the nice and very informative review.
I kow you commented on noise differences between 7D and 20D cameras
but would it be possible for you to provide two controlled shots
made with each camera with 100% crops to be able to visually assess
high-level ISO noise? Something of the nature Phill provides in his
reviews. Since I assume both cameras have very good characteristics
up to ISO 800, I would really like to see how ISO 1600 and 3200
compares.
Thanks,

netscorer.
Click to expand...
--
Arnold for President!

 
Both 20D and 7D offer the opportunity for users to select an AF point from among the sensors or to allow the camera to choose one. The Af point most often selected is the center AF point.

The AF points are not really points but zones covered by the AF sensor. Sometimes the area covered by the sensor is still larger than the subject photographed. Well, 7D offers the neat option of even narrowing the autofocus sensor area even further to fine tune the zone covered by that AF sensor. This is a great help when the subject is small in the frame. I am still testing this out in actual practice to see what practical significance this has in fine tuning the sharpness of ones images.

As for the noise issue, I am a working photographer and have no interest in performing detailed scientific test such as professional reviewers like Phil does. It will be interesting to see his analysis. I do plan on posting the images size by side with 100% crops so you can judge for yourself image quality and the extent of noise.

I have mostly been using my 7D and not shooting it side by side with my 20D but I plan to do so during the holidays. I don't think the noise difference is great but I do see more noise even at 400 iso with 7D. This could well be due to the way I am exposing the images rather than due to the sensor so I am still testing. I have had the 7D for less than a week so, as I gain more experience with the 7D, it is entirely possible that some of my impressions will change.

Lastly, thanks to all of you who have thanked me and participated in this discussion. I am initially energized by my own natural curiosity but your encouraging remarks lead me to try to accomplish even more. Again, thanks!!!

--
Vance Zachary
http://www.pbase.com/photoworkszach
http://www.photoworksbyzachary.com
 
I was going from the diagonal...The Canon is 1.8" and the 7d is 2.5". I did calculate the area of the 20d which gave me 3.25" sq in (1 x 1.5). The sq root of which is 1.8 .

The pixel count is slightly more than half. And it is true and you are correct we know nothing of the pixel size just the display size although if you divided 3.25 by 118,000 you'd come close. Likewise if you did the calculation for the 7d you'd get an approximation. My guess is they are close enough that the human eye would not know the difference but that is an opinion nothing more nothing less.

Stilll Vance feels that he can use the 20d for good fcusing and it works better for him than the 7d....which is fine. Vance knows what he is doing and what is comfortable for him I was just trying to make a point that on critical focusing applications I would use an optical instrument rather than a LCD display.

Tim
netscorer said:
I do not know how did you arrive to your calculations, but
according to my semi-forgotten trigonometry, the 20D LCD size is
actually only 52% of the D7's, so it has slight advantage in pixel
density obviously being almost twice smaller. We also know nothing
of pixel size in each LCD panel. Just comparing pixel density does
not give us a complete picture as the panel with larger pixels will
be much sharper then a comparable panel with smaller pixels at the
same density. Simply put, two waterlemons put together would be
much more visible to you then two cherries spread to cover the same
distance as waterlemons :-)
Timothy S Broadley said:
The 20d LCD is 72% of the size of the 7D and the pixel count of
the 20d is 57% of the 7d. I am clearly missing something here and
if so I apologize
Tim
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Yes but...

if you're relying on the ability to crop the 8MP image down to 6MP the comparison needs to be at native resolutions.

daveR
Jack Riley said:
netscorer said:
Vance,

First of all, thanks for the nice and very informative review.
I kow you commented on noise differences between 7D and 20D cameras
but would it be possible for you to provide two controlled shots
made with each camera with 100% crops to be able to visually assess
high-level ISO noise? Something of the nature Phill provides in his
reviews. Since I assume both cameras have very good characteristics
up to ISO 800, I would really like to see how ISO 1600 and 3200
compares.
Thanks,

netscorer.
Click to expand...
--
Arnold for President!

Click to expand...
 
Vance Zachary said:
Well, 7D offers the neat option of
even narrowing the autofocus sensor area even further to fine tune
the zone covered by that AF sensor. This is a great help when the
subject is small in the frame. I am still testing this out in
actual practice to see what practical significance this has in fine
tuning the sharpness of ones images.
Click to expand...
Now that's a feature I don't think I've come across Vance. Can you expand on what you're doing to fine tune the area?

Cheers and happy holiday

daveR
 
That is for sure. Spot focusing is one of them.

To spot focus, I am not doing anything other than what the manual says. It is a CAMERA SETTING just like spot metering is for exposure. I think that a copy of the 7D instruction manual is posted online on the K-M site and you can read about this and a whole host of extensive feature options such as zone matching,etc. It is readily available published material.

7D gives you many more interesting options than Canon 20D. This is one of the differences between the 20D and 7D. 7D has more personality. Once you become used to the buttons and knobs and extensive feature set, you tend to want to stick with Minolta.

I have yet to test all of these features out to see how useful they really are in actual practice. Stay tuned!

--
Vance Zachary
http://www.pbase.com/photoworkszach
http://www.photoworksbyzachary.com
 
FWIW there is a quantitaive assessment of noise in the Luminous Landscape review of the 7d across all ISOs at

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/minolta-7d.shtml

Cheers
Tim
netscorer said:
Vance,

First of all, thanks for the nice and very informative review.
I kow you commented on noise differences between 7D and 20D cameras
but would it be possible for you to provide two controlled shots
made with each camera with 100% crops to be able to visually assess
high-level ISO noise? Something of the nature Phill provides in his
reviews. Since I assume both cameras have very good characteristics
up to ISO 800, I would really like to see how ISO 1600 and 3200
compares.
Thanks,

netscorer.
Click to expand...
 
Already got me a 7D Vance and agree that it has bags of personality. But the only references I can find to the term "spot focus" seem to be the same as the use of the centrtal cross focus sensor.

Are you talking about something different? And if not, does the 20D not allow for this?

daveR
Vance Zachary said:
That is for sure. Spot focusing is one of them.

To spot focus, I am not doing anything other than what the manual
says. It is a CAMERA SETTING just like spot metering is for
exposure. I think that a copy of the 7D instruction manual is
posted online on the K-M site and you can read about this and a
whole host of extensive feature options such as zone matching,etc.
It is readily available published material.

7D gives you many more interesting options than Canon 20D. This is
one of the differences between the 20D and 7D. 7D has more
personality. Once you become used to the buttons and knobs and
extensive feature set, you tend to want to stick with Minolta.

I have yet to test all of these features out to see how useful they
really are in actual practice. Stay tuned!

--
Vance Zachary
http://www.pbase.com/photoworkszach
http://www.photoworksbyzachary.com
Click to expand...
 
I have re-read the Manual. What is referred to as spot metering is just narrowing the area of focus to one of the AF sensors and the 20D does allow one to do something similar. Thanks for helping to clarify that matter.

I will be a bit out of touch with the forum over the holidays, especially the next three or four days but I will try to check in once every one or two days to see what is on everyone's minds. I wish each and every one of you and your families a very Happy Holiday Season.

--
Vance Zachary
http://www.pbase.com/photoworkszach
http://www.photoworksbyzachary.com
 
Peter, the viewfinder screem IS interchangeble, altthough it is quite tricky and therefore, KM recommends, to do it in a KM service centre. I just stepped in the Swiss KM centre and a very friedly KM guy replaced my screen by a grid screen, which I already had in my AF 7000 and by software in my A2. The guy showed me how to do it (with a lot of care and a calm hand!) and now I am able to change the screen myself.

Where I agree 100% with you is card write speed, rotation flag, review zoom range.., but this are minor points, which can be improved by a firmware upgrade IMO.

Fritz
Peter Gregg said:
Thanks for this information Vance. That is good feedback. Looks
like the successor to the 7D is going to be a winner if KM does
it's homework.

What I am most sorry about is the overall KM mindset. Since they
came into the game last, they had a unique opportunity to use "hind
site". The 7D should have had a fast card writing ability and a
focus system that matched the 20D. if they wanted to really pierce
the 20D and it's market, they could have added a few high end silly
features that none of the other cameras have, like 1/3 stop ISO
choices and interchangeable viewfinder screens.
Click to expand...
 
Vance Zachary said:
I have re-read the Manual. What is referred to as spot metering is
just narrowing the area of focus to one of the AF sensors and the
20D does allow one to do something similar. Thanks for helping to
clarify that matter.

I will be a bit out of touch with the forum over the holidays,
especially the next three or four days but I will try to check in
once every one or two days to see what is on everyone's minds. I
wish each and every one of you and your families a very Happy
Holiday Season.

--
Vance Zachary
http://www.pbase.com/photoworkszach
http://www.photoworksbyzachary.com
Click to expand...
 
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