To sign, or not to sign

I recently received an order and a $750 good faith advance for 5 24”x36” prints to be displayed in a fairly well trafficked real estate office. The (extremely low) price I quoted factored in the benefit of public exposure. Now the guy tells me he doesn’t want the prints signed (he told me this in an e-mail—I haven’t spoken to him to learn his rationale).

The prints are ready for delivery—considering my time for processing (among other things), and the cost of printing and mounting, I’m probably into this whole thing a little more than the $750 he’s already paid. Any suggestions on how I should handle it? My inclination is to tell him no, that I must sign them. But I’ve never encountered a situation quite like this. My concerns are two-fold: first, I don’t want to lose an opportunity for public exposure; and second, my signature is essentially a copyright mark—am I putting myself in legal jeopardy by putting unsigned prints out there?

Any feedback will be most appreciated.

Thanks.

Gary Hart
http://www.eloquentimages.com

What's the difference between a painting that would most definately be signed and your photo? I'd go for signing them, myself. Doesn't have to be obtrusive, but just so it's there if people look for it.

Gary Hart said:

I recently received an order and a $750 good faith advance for 5
24”x36” prints to be displayed in a fairly well trafficked real
estate office. The (extremely low) price I quoted factored in the
benefit of public exposure. Now the guy tells me he doesn’t want
the prints signed (he told me this in an e-mail—I haven’t spoken to
him to learn his rationale).

The prints are ready for delivery—considering my time for
processing (among other things), and the cost of printing and
mounting, I’m probably into this whole thing a little more than the
$750 he’s already paid. Any suggestions on how I should handle it?
My inclination is to tell him no, that I must sign them. But I’ve
never encountered a situation quite like this. My concerns are
two-fold: first, I don’t want to lose an opportunity for public
exposure; and second, my signature is essentially a copyright
mark—am I putting myself in legal jeopardy by putting unsigned
prints out there?

Any feedback will be most appreciated.

Thanks.

Gary Hart
http://www.eloquentimages.com

Click to expand...

The image is copyrighted wether you sign it or not. FYI.

But you are right - you don't get the exposure if you don't sign it... perhaps ask him if he'd rather put up little business cards of yours next to the prints. ?

Gary;

That guy's full of it. Take the $750 and sign em and tell him either pays you the remainder and THEN you'll deliver the prints - or- you'll sell em to someone else. I'd prefer the latter option. You will sell em to someone or various someones. Don't let him BS you. You sign your work. Period. And you put a business card in the frame of every print. Otherwise he pays full price. If he doesn't want your signature, he's not going to do ANYTHING to help you get exposure, cause who even knows it's you??

Gary Hart said:

I recently received an order and a $750 good faith advance for 5
24”x36” prints to be displayed in a fairly well trafficked real
estate office. The (extremely low) price I quoted factored in the
benefit of public exposure. Now the guy tells me he doesn’t want
the prints signed (he told me this in an e-mail—I haven’t spoken to
him to learn his rationale).

The prints are ready for delivery—considering my time for
processing (among other things), and the cost of printing and
mounting, I’m probably into this whole thing a little more than the
$750 he’s already paid. Any suggestions on how I should handle it?
My inclination is to tell him no, that I must sign them. But I’ve
never encountered a situation quite like this. My concerns are
two-fold: first, I don’t want to lose an opportunity for public
exposure; and second, my signature is essentially a copyright
mark—am I putting myself in legal jeopardy by putting unsigned
prints out there?

Any feedback will be most appreciated.

Thanks.

Gary Hart
http://www.eloquentimages.com

Click to expand...

photosrme said:

Gary Hart said:

I recently received an order and a $750 good faith advance for 5
24”x36” prints to be displayed in a fairly well trafficked real
estate office. The (extremely low) price I quoted factored in the
benefit of public exposure. Now the guy tells me he doesn’t want
the prints signed (he told me this in an e-mail—I haven’t spoken to
him to learn his rationale).

The prints are ready for delivery—considering my time for
processing (among other things), and the cost of printing and
mounting, I’m probably into this whole thing a little more than the
$750 he’s already paid. Any suggestions on how I should handle it?
My inclination is to tell him no, that I must sign them. But I’ve
never encountered a situation quite like this. My concerns are
two-fold: first, I don’t want to lose an opportunity for public
exposure; and second, my signature is essentially a copyright
mark—am I putting myself in legal jeopardy by putting unsigned
prints out there?

Any feedback will be most appreciated.

Thanks.

Gary Hart
http://www.eloquentimages.com

Click to expand...

I wouldn't make a decision withuout having a direct conversation with the client. He may have a valid reason for not wishing the prints to be signed. Remember, he has reasons for displaying your photographs which probably don't include promoting your studio, and you are providing prints to fill his needs not yours. Where in the discussion of price and terms did you state the prints would be signed, and did the client have any objection at the time the deal was finalized. If he is changing his requirement after the fact, it may be reasonable to re-negotiate the price baced on the changed expectations of publicity.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't put a business card in the frame unless the print containing it was for sale and that seems unlikely in this scenario.

My thought on the whole matter is this- Signing the print has no effect on copyright. You own that unless you specifically sign it away.

Most people will not see your signature on the print unless it's dominant, which whould make it a detraction from the image which I would find undesirable.

Perhaps you could request leaving a number of brouchures with the client to pass on to interested viewers who ask about the photos. In that way there is something for them to carry away that has your contact information.

I understand you discounted the price assuming you would get a return from the public exposure, but perhaps this isn't the appropriate usage for such an expectation. If your images generate interest from people who visit your clients offices, then they will ask who took them and your client being happy with his good judgement will pass your name along without you having to push him.

Now, if you are selling these prints as fine art pieces, then it does seem sort of reasonable that they be signed, and a statement to that affect should be included in your terms and conditions document. Bottom line, I think is to be certain both you and your client understand the terms of the deal before closing it, and if either party changes the conditions then the portion of the price that is reflected in that change should be open for re-negotiation.

Some "business" people are so full of it... cr@p that is....

He is a sales person and they do this which drives me crazy.
Instead of being honest and helping you, he is trying to degrade
your work. You can be his name is all over town, in every local
magazine and newspaper. He makes his living only because he
is know in town. Do you expect any different? Don't lower yourself
to his level.

You have a contract to complete. Deliver the pictures with your
signature. Small if you like, but there and with a phone number
and address on the back. We put a whole label with our info on
the back at least.

If he does not take delivery, then he looses the deposit and pictures.
Take a witness at the time of delivery. You get full payment or walk
and keep the deposit. Hope you made sure it was non refundable or
you deliver only with full "cash" payment. No checks, this guy is trying
to play with your head and he know it.

Respect is a gift you give to yourself..... don't let anyone tell you not
to sign your own work.....

Signing is an immediate thing I do... the first thing I do when I get a large print back from the lab, I immediatly take to it with a permanent marker and sign it, and date it. Not large, but enough so you can see it if you turn the print over. I just find it some sought of security for some reason. And also you never know if your work might one day become very famous, and with your name on it, people will know it was you, which leaves some sought of legacy. So if you ask me just go I already signed it, it's something I do automatically when I get prints from the lab.

Hope this helps, Alex.
--
People take photo's, Photographers make photo's
Alex Tempone
Modern Photography

Gary Hart said:

I recently received an order and a $750 good faith advance for 5
24”x36” prints to be displayed in a fairly well trafficked real
estate office. The (extremely low) price I quoted factored in the
benefit of public exposure. Now the guy tells me he doesn’t want
the prints signed (he told me this in an e-mail—I haven’t spoken to
him to learn his rationale).

The prints are ready for delivery—considering my time for
processing (among other things), and the cost of printing and
mounting, I’m probably into this whole thing a little more than the
$750 he’s already paid. Any suggestions on how I should handle it?
My inclination is to tell him no, that I must sign them. But I’ve
never encountered a situation quite like this. My concerns are
two-fold: first, I don’t want to lose an opportunity for public
exposure; and second, my signature is essentially a copyright
mark—am I putting myself in legal jeopardy by putting unsigned
prints out there?

Any feedback will be most appreciated.

Thanks.

Gary Hart
http://www.eloquentimages.com

Click to expand...

You did not ask for a full price for the photos so sign them. Matter of fact, sign all of your photographs--it is YOUR WORK. Any artitst, and that is what we as photographers are, signs their work. If he does not agree with you walk away.

I guarantee you that he would not sell your house if you told him that you do not want him to put his real eastate sign in your yard.

Egon

I disagree with most of the posts here.

This is a commercial use, not an art gallery. If his financial offer was too low, say: NO, thank you. But you are kidding yourself if you believe that signing your work means you'll need to add a phone line to accomodate all the new business calls.

What was in your original written agreement that both parties signed before you began this work? No written agreement? Why not?

If you had a written agreement, you would not have this problem, right? All these issues would have been covered by the written agreement, right? Therefore, the reason you have this issue is NOT because he's a "salesman" and rejects your interests, not because he's cheap, but because YOU did not conduct yourself as a professional.

When I make a mistake (like not obtaining a signed a written agreement in advance), I suck it up, deliver to the client's expectations (however unreasonable) and LEARN from MY mistake.

sorry- I'm a little grouchy.

p

PS: Of course you should put your business information on the back of the print. That goes without question, and it should contain copyright information and the specific license your granted, ie: Licensed for display purposes only, no reproduction rights granted.

--
http://www.paulmbowers.com

This post represents the personal opinion of Paul M Bowers, and every opinion,
while likely to be factual, should be independently verified. Your mileage may
vary, standard disclaimers apply. I maintain the copyright on my posts, and they
may not be republished without express permission. But seriously, folks, it's a
forum, not a big deal. And please don't feed the trolls.

I've always had a healthy "side line" selling "art photography" in a number of galleries. Here is the "gallery/art world accepted practice". Unless you had an agreement before hand, then the client gets to pick how they are presented. By agreement i mean "I'll give them to you cheap but my name goes on them for PR", not "I'll give them to you cheap for PR".

I had a large medical outfit order 8 large platinum prints, and insist they be matted in an ugly purple mat board without signitures. That one really hurt! But to get "snooty" and refuse the order would have been a foolish move, both because of the $$$ and because it would have really ticked off the art dealer handling the sale.

Sign the back of the prints or matt if it makes you feel better. The signiture has nothing to do with legal copyright. None of my work goes out without a name and copyright notice on the back of the print or matt. It not that it is needed legally to protect my copyright, it is there to "remind" everyone of it. It is easier to fix these thing before they get to the "lawyers, guns, and money" stage. In 20+ years I've only had 2 bad experiences with copyright issues

As a side note, art prints in most commercial settings are worth next to nothing to the artist in PR. No one visiting a real estate office is going to remember your name. One of the national clothing store chains has been a real good art client of mine. Bought a huge number of prints for their corporate office. They wanted a set of prints to "travel" around the country store to store, one month at each store. They didn't want to buy these, just wanted a one year "loan". Basically they wanted a free way to "spruce up and make new/different" the locations. I agreed because they paid for framing (which I got to keep at the end of the year) and because they were a good customer. Signiture fully visible. Zero sales generated :-(

Paul M Bowers said:

I disagree with most of the posts here.

This is a commercial use, not an art gallery. If his financial
offer was too low, say: NO, thank you. But you are kidding
yourself if you believe that signing your work means you'll need to
add a phone line to accomodate all the new business calls.

What was in your original written agreement that both parties
signed before you began this work? No written agreement? Why not?

If you had a written agreement, you would not have this problem,
right? All these issues would have been covered by the written
agreement, right? Therefore, the reason you have this issue is NOT
because he's a "salesman" and rejects your interests, not because
he's cheap, but because YOU did not conduct yourself as a
professional.

When I make a mistake (like not obtaining a signed a written
agreement in advance), I suck it up, deliver to the client's
expectations (however unreasonable) and LEARN from MY mistake.

sorry- I'm a little grouchy.

p

PS: Of course you should put your business information on the back
of the print. That goes without question, and it should contain
copyright information and the specific license your granted, ie:
Licensed for display purposes only, no reproduction rights granted.

--
http://www.paulmbowers.com

This post represents the personal opinion of Paul M Bowers, and
every opinion,
while likely to be factual, should be independently verified. Your
mileage may
vary, standard disclaimers apply. I maintain the copyright on my
posts, and they
may not be republished without express permission. But seriously,
folks, it's a
forum, not a big deal. And please don't feed the trolls.

Click to expand...

--
Tom Ferguson
http://www.ferguson-photo-design.com

Your more likely to get extra sales from an happy customer, than a signature that nobody notices.

Tony

Tom Ferguson said:

I had a large medical outfit order 8 large platinum prints, and
insist they be matted in an ugly purple mat board without
signitures. That one really hurt! But to get "snooty" and refuse
the order would have been a foolish move, both because of the $$$
and because it would have really ticked off the art dealer handling
the sale.

Sign the back of the prints or matt if it makes you feel better.
The signiture has nothing to do with legal copyright. None of my
work goes out without a name and copyright notice on the back of
the print or matt. It not that it is needed legally to protect my
copyright, it is there to "remind" everyone of it. It is easier to
fix these thing before they get to the "lawyers, guns, and money"
stage. In 20+ years I've only had 2 bad experiences with copyright
issues

As a side note, art prints in most commercial settings are worth
next to nothing to the artist in PR. No one visiting a real estate
office is going to remember your name. One of the national clothing
store chains has been a real good art client of mine. Bought a huge
number of prints for their corporate office. They wanted a set of
prints to "travel" around the country store to store, one month at
each store. They didn't want to buy these, just wanted a one year
"loan". Basically they wanted a free way to "spruce up and make
new/different" the locations. I agreed because they paid for
framing (which I got to keep at the end of the year) and because
they were a good customer. Signiture fully visible. Zero sales
generated :-(

Paul M Bowers said:

I disagree with most of the posts here.

This is a commercial use, not an art gallery. If his financial
offer was too low, say: NO, thank you. But you are kidding
yourself if you believe that signing your work means you'll need to
add a phone line to accomodate all the new business calls.

What was in your original written agreement that both parties
signed before you began this work? No written agreement? Why not?

If you had a written agreement, you would not have this problem,
right? All these issues would have been covered by the written
agreement, right? Therefore, the reason you have this issue is NOT
because he's a "salesman" and rejects your interests, not because
he's cheap, but because YOU did not conduct yourself as a
professional.

When I make a mistake (like not obtaining a signed a written
agreement in advance), I suck it up, deliver to the client's
expectations (however unreasonable) and LEARN from MY mistake.

sorry- I'm a little grouchy.

p

PS: Of course you should put your business information on the back
of the print. That goes without question, and it should contain
copyright information and the specific license your granted, ie:
Licensed for display purposes only, no reproduction rights granted.

--
http://www.paulmbowers.com

This post represents the personal opinion of Paul M Bowers, and
every opinion,
while likely to be factual, should be independently verified. Your
mileage may
vary, standard disclaimers apply. I maintain the copyright on my
posts, and they
may not be republished without express permission. But seriously,
folks, it's a
forum, not a big deal. And please don't feed the trolls.

Click to expand...

--
Tom Ferguson
http://www.ferguson-photo-design.com

Click to expand...

Thanks everybody for your feedback. I should probably clarify a few things: First, I do indeed have a written agreement with the client, but it never occurred to me that I should stipulate “signature required”—that will change. (I did, however, specify “signed prints” in writing in the bid he accepted.) Second, I realize that my work is copyrighted with or without a signature—I'm more concerned about my ability to defend my copyright. And third, this is fine art photography (not sure what else you’d call large custom prints someone hangs on a wall and pays hundreds of dollars for) and this kind of exposure really is an important part of my business (i.e., it generates sales).

So far I’ve read nothing to diminish my inclination to stick to my guns. Of course I’m not even sure this is going to be a problem—he could very well say, “Sure, fine” when I insist on signing the prints. I just want to be prepared if he does resist. Fortunately, I have lots of experience dealing with difficult people and have no problem making decisions based on my long term best interests—I doubt this transaction will become antagonistic. I should be talking to the client in the next day or two and will let you know how it goes.

Thanks again.

Gary Hart
http://www.eloquentimages.com

Tom Ferguson said:

I had a large medical outfit order 8 large platinum prints, and
insist they be matted in an ugly purple mat board without
signitures. That one really hurt! But to get "snooty" and refuse
the order would have been a foolish move, both because of the $$$
and because it would have really ticked off the art dealer handling
the sale.

Sign the back of the prints or matt if it makes you feel better.
The signiture has nothing to do with legal copyright. None of my
work goes out without a name and copyright notice on the back of
the print or matt. It not that it is needed legally to protect my
copyright, it is there to "remind" everyone of it. It is easier to
fix these thing before they get to the "lawyers, guns, and money"
stage. In 20+ years I've only had 2 bad experiences with copyright
issues

As a side note, art prints in most commercial settings are worth
next to nothing to the artist in PR. No one visiting a real estate
office is going to remember your name. One of the national clothing
store chains has been a real good art client of mine. Bought a huge
number of prints for their corporate office. They wanted a set of
prints to "travel" around the country store to store, one month at
each store. They didn't want to buy these, just wanted a one year
"loan". Basically they wanted a free way to "spruce up and make
new/different" the locations. I agreed because they paid for
framing (which I got to keep at the end of the year) and because
they were a good customer. Signiture fully visible. Zero sales
generated :-(

Paul M Bowers said:

I disagree with most of the posts here.

This is a commercial use, not an art gallery. If his financial
offer was too low, say: NO, thank you. But you are kidding
yourself if you believe that signing your work means you'll need to
add a phone line to accomodate all the new business calls.

What was in your original written agreement that both parties
signed before you began this work? No written agreement? Why not?

If you had a written agreement, you would not have this problem,
right? All these issues would have been covered by the written
agreement, right? Therefore, the reason you have this issue is NOT
because he's a "salesman" and rejects your interests, not because
he's cheap, but because YOU did not conduct yourself as a
professional.

When I make a mistake (like not obtaining a signed a written
agreement in advance), I suck it up, deliver to the client's
expectations (however unreasonable) and LEARN from MY mistake.

sorry- I'm a little grouchy.

p

PS: Of course you should put your business information on the back
of the print. That goes without question, and it should contain
copyright information and the specific license your granted, ie:
Licensed for display purposes only, no reproduction rights granted.

--
http://www.paulmbowers.com

This post represents the personal opinion of Paul M Bowers, and
every opinion,
while likely to be factual, should be independently verified. Your
mileage may
vary, standard disclaimers apply. I maintain the copyright on my
posts, and they
may not be republished without express permission. But seriously,
folks, it's a
forum, not a big deal. And please don't feed the trolls.

Click to expand...

--
Tom Ferguson
http://www.ferguson-photo-design.com

Click to expand...

add a copyright to the front of the print.

Gary Hart said:

I recently received an order and a $750 good faith advance for 5
24”x36” prints to be displayed in a fairly well trafficked real
estate office. The (extremely low) price I quoted factored in the
benefit of public exposure. Now the guy tells me he doesn’t want
the prints signed (he told me this in an e-mail—I haven’t spoken to
him to learn his rationale).

The prints are ready for delivery—considering my time for
processing (among other things), and the cost of printing and
mounting, I’m probably into this whole thing a little more than the
$750 he’s already paid. Any suggestions on how I should handle it?
My inclination is to tell him no, that I must sign them. But I’ve
never encountered a situation quite like this. My concerns are
two-fold: first, I don’t want to lose an opportunity for public
exposure; and second, my signature is essentially a copyright
mark—am I putting myself in legal jeopardy by putting unsigned
prints out there?

Any feedback will be most appreciated.

Thanks.

Gary Hart
http://www.eloquentimages.com

Click to expand...

Gary Hart said:

requires that Realtor to place his name and address/phone number on the sign he places in front of his listings....... he should, unless there is a compelling reason ( ask him directly) understand your desire to identify your product with pride by identifying the artists name . You might find that his reasoning is sufficient for you to adhere to his request in order to maintain a civil relationship....... or if it just a "smoke screem\n" for something, then it is time to note to him that ALL your art work MUST be identified by signature.... and that is a DEMAND insisted to you by your attorney because of potential problems .....

Click to expand...

Ron

I have lots of experience dealing with difficult

Gary Hart said:

people and have no problem making decisions based on my long term
best interests—I doubt this transaction will become antagonistic.
I should be talking to the client in the next day or two and will
let you know how it goes.

Click to expand...

Sales people do this all the time. It is not about photography or
anything that some internal need for the salesperson to get the upper
hand. It is phychology, not about the photo or the signature. He
is tweeking you because that is what real estate people do on a daily
basis. They have this need to always be "on top" of the sales "BS" and
keep their clients off guard. They do it without noticing it because it
is so engrained in their minds and procedure.

Any posts about the actul siging or the phots miss the mark although
they are right for just that one photographic area.

It is about this guys conception of "The art of the sale" ... nothing more.

If you sign them on the front and turn them in, he will probably have already forgotten

the comment, becuase he is just testing your limits as a salesperson always does....
it is habbit for him to do so.

Hope you get my point.... sales people can be jerks.....

Does anyone think that he might have said this because he had the idea that later on when clients would come into his office that he might try and say that he was the photographer and took the pictures. Trying to impress his real estate clients? Just a thought.

Shawn.

Gary Hart said:

I recently received an order and a $750 good faith advance for 5
24”x36” prints to be displayed in a fairly well trafficked real
estate office. The (extremely low) price I quoted factored in the
benefit of public exposure. Now the guy tells me he doesn’t want
the prints signed (he told me this in an e-mail—I haven’t spoken to
him to learn his rationale).

The prints are ready for delivery—considering my time for
processing (among other things), and the cost of printing and
mounting, I’m probably into this whole thing a little more than the
$750 he’s already paid. Any suggestions on how I should handle it?
My inclination is to tell him no, that I must sign them. But I’ve
never encountered a situation quite like this. My concerns are
two-fold: first, I don’t want to lose an opportunity for public
exposure; and second, my signature is essentially a copyright
mark—am I putting myself in legal jeopardy by putting unsigned
prints out there?

Any feedback will be most appreciated.

Thanks.

Gary Hart
http://www.eloquentimages.com

Click to expand...

--
http://www.pbase.com/dawsonsdad/root

You should have an original contract. If you have, and there's no mention of not signing, you should have your logo on the prints. I wouldn't cross the road without a firm contract.
Skipper494.

I delivered the prints today. I had arrived with them unsigned, and when I asked the customer why he wants them that way, he said he likes them so much he doesn’t want anything to distract the viewer (don't know if he meant it, but he really said that). When I explained that it's important to me that I sign them, he told me it wasn't a problem. I let him specify where and how large to sign, and everyone was happy.

One other mildly amusing story: I totally screwed up on my invoice and ended up charging him $1200 too much--he wrote the check without flinching. When I realized my mistake later, I couldn't get to the phone fast enough to let him know (lest he discover it first and accuse me of trying to cheat him). Apparently he had figured it out too, but fortunately my call came before he called me (phew). We had a good laugh, and I promised to correct the error tomorrow. I suspect I've made a loyal customer.

Thanks again for your input.

Gary Hart
http://www.eloquentimages.com

Gary Hart said:

Thanks everybody for your feedback. I should probably clarify a
few things: First, I do indeed have a written agreement with the
client, but it never occurred to me that I should stipulate
“signature required”—that will change. (I did, however, specify
“signed prints” in writing in the bid he accepted.) Second, I
realize that my work is copyrighted with or without a signature—I'm
more concerned about my ability to defend my copyright. And third,
this is fine art photography (not sure what else you’d call large
custom prints someone hangs on a wall and pays hundreds of dollars
for) and this kind of exposure really is an important part of my
business (i.e., it generates sales).

So far I’ve read nothing to diminish my inclination to stick to my
guns. Of course I’m not even sure this is going to be a problem—he
could very well say, “Sure, fine” when I insist on signing the
prints. I just want to be prepared if he does resist.
Fortunately, I have lots of experience dealing with difficult
people and have no problem making decisions based on my long term
best interests—I doubt this transaction will become antagonistic.
I should be talking to the client in the next day or two and will
let you know how it goes.

Thanks again.

Gary Hart
http://www.eloquentimages.com

Click to expand...

centralcoastmagazine said:

Hope you get my point.... sales people can be jerks.....

Click to expand...

So can photographers!

--
Rod

Day job is being a nice honest Real Estate agent

http://www.PtLPS.com

Ronald Rosenwald said:

Ronald Rosenwald said:

requires that Realtor to place his name and address/phone number on the sign he places in front of his listings.......> Ron

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Each state is different and in CA there is no law and any client can request that there be no sign. They can even request that it not be on the MLS or that there be no lock box. All of those are great ways of pointing a shotgun at your foot and pulling the trigger but AFAIK there are no states with "sign required"

FYI

--
Rod

The Real Estate agent with the best photos/flyers out there

http://www.PtLPS.com