8800 EV correction/manual misprint?

There is a section of the 8800 manual that confuses me to the point where I think it may be wrong. Of course, most likely what is faulty is my understanding.

On the bottom of page 44, the page describing exposure compensation, it states that one should select positive values when the scene is bright, and negative values when the scene is dark or backlit. Yet, at the top of the page, it says the negative numbers are underexposure and positive numbers over.

To my way of thinking, if the scene is a snow covered lake in bright sunshine, I would need to slightly underexpose the image, using a negative exposure compensation. That is exactly opposite of what is suggested in the manual.

What am I missing?

Thank you!
Bob
8 8 0 0 newbie

bobdela said:

There is a section of the 8800 manual that confuses me to the point
where I think it may be wrong. Of course, most likely what is
faulty is my understanding.

On the bottom of page 44, the page describing exposure
compensation, it states that one should select positive values when
the scene is bright, and negative values when the scene is dark or
backlit. Yet, at the top of the page, it says the negative numbers
are underexposure and positive numbers over.

To my way of thinking, if the scene is a snow covered lake in
bright sunshine, I would need to slightly underexpose the image,
using a negative exposure compensation. That is exactly opposite of
what is suggested in the manual.

What am I missing?

Thank you!
Bob
8 8 0 0 newbie

Click to expand...

--
http://www.pbase.com/johndig/italyfav
Johndig

The text is here. It explains what seems to be reverse logic. The plus is to brighten the subject and visa versa.

"As a rule of thumb, select positive values when large areas of the frame are very brightly

lit (for example, when photographing an expanse of sunlit water, sand, or snow) or

when the background is much brighter than the main subject. Choose negative values

when large areas of the frame are very dark (for example, when photographing a forest

of dark green leaves) or when the background is much darker than the main subject.

This is because the camera, in order to avoid extreme under- or over-exposure, tends

to lower exposure when the frame is very bright and raise exposure when the frame is

very dark, which can make naturally bright subjects look dim and naturally dark subjects
appear over-bright, or “washed out.”"

Re-read the paragraph at the bottom.

This is because the camera, in order to avoid extreme under- or over-exposure, tends to lower exposure when the frame is very bright and raise exposure when the frame is very dark, which can naturally bright subjects look dim and naturally dark subjects appear over-bright or "washed out".

What this says to me is that the camera set on automatic exposure will over compensate for the brightness at the beach....underexposing the picture TOO much. So you need to overexpose what the camera is going to do on it's own.

Does that make sense?

bobdela said:

There is a section of the 8800 manual that confuses me to the point
where I think it may be wrong. Of course, most likely what is
faulty is my understanding.

On the bottom of page 44, the page describing exposure
compensation, it states that one should select positive values when
the scene is bright, and negative values when the scene is dark or
backlit. Yet, at the top of the page, it says the negative numbers
are underexposure and positive numbers over.

To my way of thinking, if the scene is a snow covered lake in
bright sunshine, I would need to slightly underexpose the image,
using a negative exposure compensation. That is exactly opposite of
what is suggested in the manual.

What am I missing?

Thank you!
Bob
8 8 0 0 newbie

Click to expand...

generally at start (newbie) we think like you but manual is right (you must think opposite of what you think now).

When you see a bright scene for exemple snow with sun, camera (all) make undexposed picture, it's why you need to surexpose to have a good exposure.

If you see a dark scene, camera (all) generally surexpose and picture is too bright, it's why you need to underpose dark scene to have correct exposure.

Treehug said:

Does that make sense?

Click to expand...

I think so. Based on your message and the previous reply (thank you!) my logic is not faulty. I do understand properly the effects of exposure compensation in general. However, this specific camera tends to overcorrect in extreme situations, so the compensation which is usually needed is to moderate the camera's built-in adjusments.

Bob

bobdela said:

To my way of thinking, if the scene is a snow covered lake in
bright sunshine, I would need to slightly underexpose the image,
using a negative exposure compensation. That is exactly opposite of
what is suggested in the manual.

Click to expand...

Your logic is correct. The advise of the manual is to follow ONLY if your main subject's or area's brightness DIFFERS from the overall brightness.

Instead of adjusting the EV, you can select "spot" or "spot area" metering. Spot measures in the center, while spot area measures there, where the autofocus area spot is set. With that, you don't need to think of how much to add or to substract.

System calculates based on overall brightness, which will make your subject either under or over exposed if your subject's brightness is quite different from the background's.

e.g.shotting in snow, if snow (main background) is exposed right, your subject will be dark. So in order to make your subject show right, you need to increase the expose value, right?

bobdela said:

There is a section of the 8800 manual that confuses me to the point
where I think it may be wrong. Of course, most likely what is
faulty is my understanding.

On the bottom of page 44, the page describing exposure
compensation, it states that one should select positive values when
the scene is bright, and negative values when the scene is dark or
backlit. Yet, at the top of the page, it says the negative numbers
are underexposure and positive numbers over.

To my way of thinking, if the scene is a snow covered lake in
bright sunshine, I would need to slightly underexpose the image,
using a negative exposure compensation. That is exactly opposite of
what is suggested in the manual.

What am I missing?

Thank you!
Bob
8 8 0 0 newbie

Click to expand...

zoneu said:

System calculates based on overall brightness, which will make your
subject either under or over exposed if your subject's brightness
is quite different from the background's.

Click to expand...

Not if you use the "spot" or "area spot" metering. It's very easy to demonstrate.

Change the the "AF area mode" to "manual" and the metering to "area spot". In a well-lit room find a darker spot. Hold the camera (best on tripod) so, that the dark spot is "under" one of the nine AF area brackets. Look at the exposure and move the area selection to different brackets. The exposure changes, as you select darker or brighter spots.

You are correct. I was trying to explain the manual

Or if carema can read our mind to automatically identify and measure the "subject" in our mind, it would be real Auto mode

GaborSch said:

zoneu said:

System calculates based on overall brightness, which will make your
subject either under or over exposed if your subject's brightness
is quite different from the background's.

Click to expand...

Not if you use the "spot" or "area spot" metering. It's very easy
to demonstrate.

Change the the "AF area mode" to "manual" and the metering to "area
spot". In a well-lit room find a darker spot. Hold the camera (best
on tripod) so, that the dark spot is "under" one of the nine AF
area brackets. Look at the exposure and move the area selection to
different brackets. The exposure changes, as you select darker or
brighter spots.

Click to expand...

so I'm going to try and explain it - if you don't understand, sorry. It's rather tricky to explain.

Note: this has nothing to do with the subject being different to the background - you're right, that does require spot metering, but it is an entirely different problem.

The problem is where the entire photo is either very bright, or very dark.

All cameras are designed to correctly expose a photo containing the average mix of dark and light areas - so when ever it is asked to take a picture, it adjusts the exposure so it has the correct balance of light and dark according to this assumption. This works fine in a photo of, say, a park on a sunny day, which has a mixture of bright and dark areas, making up an averagely bright photo.

However it is worth remembering that a camera has no idea of what you are actually taking a picture of. So if you decide to take a picture of a white wall, for example, the camera will still assume it is an averagely bright scene.

Of course a white wall is not average - it is much brighter than the average scene. However the camera still follows the same assumption as with the park photo, and thinks that because the photo is so bright that it must be overexposed. It therefore reduces the exposure, underexposing the image, so the white wall looks grey. Of course, the white wall is meant to be bright, so in order to compensate this you must increase the exposure - i.e. introduce a positive exposure compensation. This produces a bright white wall.

Exactly the opposite is true when taking a dark wall. The camera thinks the photo is too dark, so overexposes, producing a too light image. Negative exposure compensation is required to reduce the exposure, and produce a correct dark image.

This trait is common to all cameras, be it film or digital. Until cameras can tell the difference between the subjects of a photo (unlikely in the near future), e.g. a park, white wall or dark wall, some human intervention will always be required.

I hope this clears some things up.

Dazed and Confused

That is right. Snow and sand you are going to want to use a plus EV because otherwise the camera will turn the snow/sand gray. But I shoot regular outdoors photos with a minus EV. Why? To underexpose. That gives me a better sky, richer color. If necessary, if there are shadows, I can use my shadow recovery tool from Fred Miranda to lighten only the highlights or the D-Light tool in the 8800 to do the same.

--
Darlene
Nikon 995, 4300, 4500, 5700, 8800
Panasonic FZ10
http://www.pbase.com/imacatmom

Dazed and Confused said:

Note: this has nothing to do with the subject being different to
the background - you're right, that does require spot metering, but
it is an entirely different problem.

Click to expand...

The main reason for adjusting the auto-exposure is just the different brightness of the main subject from the measured area(s), whatever that/they are. If the main subject (i.e. that, what you want to see with the correct exposure) has the same brightness as the average of the measured areas, there is no reason to manually adjust the EV, at least from this direction.

Darlene Goff said:

I shoot regular outdoors photos with a minus EV. Why? To
underexpose. That gives me a better sky, richer color. If
necessary, if there are shadows, I can use my shadow recovery tool
from Fred Miranda to lighten only the highlights or the D-Light
tool in the 8800 to do the same.

Click to expand...

Underexposure means losing information. Everything is underexposure, until sensor reading is lost at the higher end.

One can always make "lower exposure" from higher, but not the opposite.

Of course overexposing means, that one has to post-process the image.

There is a detailed description of this concept for example at
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/expose-right.shtml

GaborSch said:

The main reason for adjusting the auto-exposure is just the
different brightness of the main subject from the measured area(s),
whatever that/they are. If the main subject (i.e. that, what you
want to see with the correct exposure) has the same brightness as
the average of the measured areas, there is no reason to manually
adjust the EV, at least from this direction.

Click to expand...

If you try to take a picture of a white cat sprawled out on a white blanket, can we agree that the subject and background are of equal brightness? Assume they are. Now, if you don't set EV up to a positive number, then kitty and bedding will come out too dark no matter what metering (matrix, spot, etc.) you use. The camera's attempt to capture a "balanced" scene can be fooled if the whole image is either very bright or very dark. These situations require careful use of EV compensation just as much as when the subject and background are of very different brightness.
--
Thanks for reading......keep on clicking!
Dave
NIKON Fifty-Seven Hundred & Dee Seventy
Proud > ^..^

Dave Van Patten said:

If you try to take a picture of a white cat sprawled out on a white
blanket, can we agree that the subject and background are of equal
brightness? Assume they are. Now, if you don't set EV up to a
positive number, then kitty and bedding will come out too dark no
matter what metering (matrix, spot, etc.) you use.

Click to expand...

I agree, that this situation TOO may require manual adjustment. On the other hand, if you select the cat for the metering, you may get the same result.

Anyway, this discussion is of purely theoretic relevance. The beauty of digital photography is, that one can make a serioe of pictures with different EVs and another serie with different spot metering, and all that costs nothing.