Jobs cut in Europe

by contemporary Nords who have forsaken Christianity and its implicit restraints on behavior.

The Nords are given to meretricious arguments advancing both sides vigorously all the while insidiously promoting a post-modern nihilism embracing absolutely nothing and everything at the same time.

They care not a whit about Western Civilization and would prefer the nighmarish vision of their Muslim immigrants to the progressive advancements offered by their own civilization. All in the name of an oppressive egalitarian vision that will never be realized.

These people embrace the culture of death with open arms, bobbing heads and gaping grins all the while congratulating themselves for their moral superiority.

They are pathetic.
Prohibition was a complete failure. There wasn't really any other
choice.

If gay marriage was legallized, then my guess would be that
polygamy would soon follow.
Gay marriage (or a similar civil structure) has been legalized in
many countries, with no agitation for polygamy in any of them,
AFAIK.

OTOH, polygamy is legal in many countries where homosexuality is a
crime punishable by death.

This suggests very strongly that there's no connection between the
two.

(How different would legal concurrent polygamy be from the current
system of legal serial polygamy anyway?)

FWIW, personally I think that marriage should be taken out of the
legal system altogether. Instead, define a "pact of civil
solidarity" between two or more adults of either sex. This would
regulate stuff like inheritance, taxation, holding property in
common, adoption, guardianship, etc.

Marriage would be something purely in the private sphere, most
commonly associated with religion. Religious communities could pile
up their own additional restrictions or obligations as they see
fit. This way, liberal Christians could permit gay marriage while
conservative Christians could forbid it, Muslims (and Mormons)
could permit polygyny while Christians wouldn't, and so on.

All in all a simpler, freer, and more agreeable arrangement for
everybody, methinks.

Petteri
--
Me on photography: [ http://www.prime-junta.tk ]
Me on politics: [ http://p-on-p.blogspot.com/ ]
 
Keep taking the pills. You are clearly bonkers.
The Nords are given to meretricious arguments advancing both sides
vigorously all the while insidiously promoting a post-modern
nihilism embracing absolutely nothing and everything at the same
time.

They care not a whit about Western Civilization and would prefer
the nighmarish vision of their Muslim immigrants to the progressive
advancements offered by their own civilization. All in the name of
an oppressive egalitarian vision that will never be realized.

These people embrace the culture of death with open arms, bobbing
heads and gaping grins all the while congratulating themselves for
their moral superiority.

They are pathetic.
Prohibition was a complete failure. There wasn't really any other
choice.

If gay marriage was legallized, then my guess would be that
polygamy would soon follow.
Gay marriage (or a similar civil structure) has been legalized in
many countries, with no agitation for polygamy in any of them,
AFAIK.

OTOH, polygamy is legal in many countries where homosexuality is a
crime punishable by death.

This suggests very strongly that there's no connection between the
two.

(How different would legal concurrent polygamy be from the current
system of legal serial polygamy anyway?)

FWIW, personally I think that marriage should be taken out of the
legal system altogether. Instead, define a "pact of civil
solidarity" between two or more adults of either sex. This would
regulate stuff like inheritance, taxation, holding property in
common, adoption, guardianship, etc.

Marriage would be something purely in the private sphere, most
commonly associated with religion. Religious communities could pile
up their own additional restrictions or obligations as they see
fit. This way, liberal Christians could permit gay marriage while
conservative Christians could forbid it, Muslims (and Mormons)
could permit polygyny while Christians wouldn't, and so on.

All in all a simpler, freer, and more agreeable arrangement for
everybody, methinks.

Petteri
--
Me on photography: [ http://www.prime-junta.tk ]
Me on politics: [ http://p-on-p.blogspot.com/ ]
 
..always hankering for your pagan roots (though not sure what they
were in Finland?)
Following is an extract (excuse the source) describing
pre-christian Celtic marriage laws. I gather Viking ones were
similar...
Perhaps somewhat. Although most pre-literate societies were pretty brutal places; women were considered chattel rather than people, y'know. Anyway, Finns weren't vikings. We scared the shït out of them. :-)
http://www.psychicjournal.com/archives/000228/000228f2.htm
Funny but doesnt it sound like where we are heading all over again?
2000 years of christianity and where do we end up?
Ah well, history would have been far less fun without monogamy,
witch hunting, the inquisition, the crusades, the Borgias and the
dark ages so I guess we mustn't grumble...
Heh.

Petteri
--
Me on photography: [ http://www.prime-junta.tk ]
Me on politics: [ http://p-on-p.blogspot.com/ ]
 
by contemporary Nords who have forsaken Christianity and its
implicit restraints on behavior.

The Nords are given to meretricious arguments advancing both sides
vigorously all the while insidiously promoting a post-modern
nihilism embracing absolutely nothing and everything at the same
time.

They care not a whit about Western Civilization and would prefer
the nighmarish vision of their Muslim immigrants to the progressive
advancements offered by their own civilization. All in the name of
an oppressive egalitarian vision that will never be realized.

These people embrace the culture of death with open arms, bobbing
heads and gaping grins all the while congratulating themselves for
their moral superiority.

They are pathetic.
I'll have to save this one for my collection. You're proving to be a great source of amusement for me and my supercilious post-modern nihilist friends. :-)

Petteri
--
Me on photography: [ http://www.prime-junta.tk ]
Me on politics: [ http://p-on-p.blogspot.com/ ]
 
How about those
"radical" elements that said that women should be paid the same
amount as men for the same work, or that blacks should not be
denied employment, housing loans, etc., on the basis of skin color?
It seems that we are talking about different things. My point was that "correctness", be it political or otherwise, implies assessment of things as being "right" as opposed to "wrong". I prefer to decide myself what I consider right and wrong, not have it imposed on me by the media or some loud activist. If my current values are the same that were widely accepted (politically correct"?) a decade ago, I do not want to be called "politically incorrect" or even rude just because the trend is different today.
Yesterday's "current trends" (the abolition of slavery) are today's
accepted morals. Does this make slavery any less wrong?
We're venturing far off topic Luke...

You may have heard of a chap named Buttiglione who was recently proposed for a EU Commissioner. The guy made the mistake of stating in public that he as a Christian thought single mothers did not make very good parents, among other things. Wasn't too long before he was ousted from his candidate's position as someone terribly "out of date".

While views such as his were more or less usual some years ago, it seems today the trend is completely the opposite. Do single mothers objectively make any better parents simply because of this change in assessment?
Moral facts are on a par with scientific facts. It doesn't matter
who discovered them, and it doesn't matter how you came to know
them. They are right or wrong independently of your beliefs.
I have to disagree here. Morality isn't an objective fact; it stems from the dominating belief of what's good and what's not, i e a purely subjective assessment.

If
you want to argue that a certain moral claim is right or wrong, go
ahead. But you cannot refute any such merely on the basis of
"origin".
I would have no problem with the political origin if it did not reflect the interests of selected groups of society rather than the majority of the population (because in the latter case it would likely reflect also my views, and even if not, I would find it acceptable as something stemming from "the people").
 
I agree,

It was in the newspaper the other day; stats show that Italians perform the least working hours per week in the whole of Europe. Italy is not doing that good when it comes to employment, and is certainly not an example for the whole of Europe.

But of course there are more aspects to economic health as employment alone. Government debt is another one for example . Belgium (where I live) is't doing great either when it comes to employment, but during the last years we've managed to reduce our debt to about 0.

And if you add it all up (a very good social security including health-insurance and unemployment fees, the fact that the Euro stands strong, etc...) it seems Belgium is almost on top, together with the Nordic countries and Canada. A big and independent study that looked at all aspects of quality of life figured that out recently. US does not make top 10.

For me personally, the low $ and the fact that it will most probably stay low (GW behind the wheel, war going on, debt way up there and Greenspan warning for uncontrolled spending, ...) has some great benefits; I can finally afford to go on safari now. A lodge costing 400$, that was 500€ for me a few years ago. Now it's 300€... Thats a 40% drop in price.

This is pure facts. Not meaning to start an anti-US flame here. In fact, I believe that if they get their act together, things will improve very fast for them.

--
Ciao,

J.

-------------------------
http://www.pixelpower.be
-------------------------
Cams: Canon 300D / Olympus UZI
Lenses: Canon 18-55 EF-S / Canon 35-350 L USM

Tools: Battery grip / X-drive I / Lowepro Trim trekker / Velbon Tripod / left eye / brain
 
How about those
"radical" elements that said that women should be paid the same
amount as men for the same work, or that blacks should not be
denied employment, housing loans, etc., on the basis of skin color?
It seems that we are talking about different things. My point was
that "correctness", be it political or otherwise, implies
assessment of things as being "right" as opposed to "wrong".
I always understood that the "correct" in PC was used in the same sense as "correct" in behaviour -- that is, well-mannered. Not "correct" as in "not incorrect." But come to think of it, you may be right.

[snip]
Moral facts are on a par with scientific facts. It doesn't matter
who discovered them, and it doesn't matter how you came to know
them. They are right or wrong independently of your beliefs.
I have to disagree here. Morality isn't an objective fact; it stems
from the dominating belief of what's good and what's not, i e a
purely subjective assessment.
Intersubjective, IMO. Not purely subjective. Morality is an internalized code of ethics, and this happens through an intersubjective process that involves some ratiocination but mostly just social conditioning. Starts with getting grounded for getting at the cookie jar.

[snip]

Petteri
--
Me on photography: [ http://www.prime-junta.tk ]
Me on politics: [ http://p-on-p.blogspot.com/ ]
 
Jochen wrote:
[snip]
This is pure facts. Not meaning to start an anti-US flame here. In
fact, I believe that if they get their act together, things will
improve very fast for them.
I'm not so optimistic. The reasons for the decline of the US are structural. There's no fast fix for them. For example, the American literacy rate is the lowest in the developed world, incarceration rate is the highest anywhere, and the economy is indebted from top to bottom. All of these things take between 10 and 30...50 years to fix, and that with a concerted effort and political consensus about it. I believe it will happen, but not "very fast" by any means. In the meantime, the US looks set to be the first developed country to acquire a social/political structure typically associated with "emerging" countries -- an island of highly dynamic centers of wealth and production in a sea of stagnation and poverty. Dunno if it'll go that far, though...

Petteri
--
Me on photography: [ http://www.prime-junta.tk ]
Me on politics: [ http://p-on-p.blogspot.com/ ]
 
Intersubjective, IMO. Not purely subjective.
I agree 'intersubjective' is a more appropriate term for this.
Morality is an
internalized code of ethics, and this happens through an
intersubjective process that involves some ratiocination but mostly
just social conditioning. Starts with getting grounded for getting
at the cookie jar.
You've summed it better than myself.
 
Intersubjective, IMO. Not purely subjective.
I agree 'intersubjective' is a more appropriate term for this.
Morality is an
internalized code of ethics, and this happens through an
intersubjective process that involves some ratiocination but mostly
just social conditioning. Starts with getting grounded for getting
at the cookie jar.
You've summed it better than myself.
Are you familiar with Karl Popper's ideas about "social engineering" (and I don't mean it in the Mitnick sense of the word?) I find the same principles apply quite well to "moral engineering" as well. After all, morals are the glue that binds societies together, and you can't really engineer the latter without touching on the former.

Petteri
--
Me on photography: [ http://www.prime-junta.tk ]
Me on politics: [ http://p-on-p.blogspot.com/ ]
 
Are you familiar with Karl Popper's ideas about "social
engineering" (and I don't mean it in the Mitnick sense of the
word?)
Err, don't think so. Can only guess what it is. Could you provide a brief outline please?
I find the same principles apply quite well to "moral
engineering" as well. After all, morals are the glue that binds
societies together, and you can't really engineer the latter
without touching on the former.
I can easily agree with that.
 
I agree,

It was in the newspaper the other day; stats show that Italians
perform the least working hours per week in the whole of Europe.
Italy is not doing that good when it comes to employment, and is
certainly not an example for the whole of Europe.

But of course there are more aspects to economic health as
employment alone. Government debt is another one for example .
Belgium (where I live) is't doing great either when it comes to
employment, but during the last years we've managed to reduce our
debt to about 0.

And if you add it all up (a very good social security including
health-insurance and unemployment fees, the fact that the Euro
stands strong, etc...) it seems Belgium is almost on top, together
with the Nordic countries and Canada. A big and independent study
that looked at all aspects of quality of life figured that out
recently. US does not make top 10.

For me personally, the low $ and the fact that it will most
probably stay low (GW behind the wheel, war going on, debt way up
there and Greenspan warning for uncontrolled spending, ...) has
some great benefits; I can finally afford to go on safari now. A
lodge costing 400$, that was 500€ for me a few years ago. Now it's
300€... Thats a 40% drop in price.

This is pure facts. Not meaning to start an anti-US flame here. In
fact, I believe that if they get their act together, things will
improve very fast for them.

--
Ciao,

J.

-------------------------
http://www.pixelpower.be
-------------------------
Cams: Canon 300D / Olympus UZI
Lenses: Canon 18-55 EF-S / Canon 35-350 L USM
Tools: Battery grip / X-drive I / Lowepro Trim trekker / Velbon
Tripod / left eye / brain
Jochen don't know where your getting your info, but as at 31st October Belgian state debt 267.18 Billion EUR.

Unless you paid off a whole lot this month that is a long way from 0. The figures come from your own government and can be found at

http://treasury.fgov.be/interdette/en_data_indicators.htm

and unemployment was @ 13.2 % Italy 8.1%

but things ARE getting better

And I think I would still rather live in most of Belgium than most of the US

Greg.

E 1, grip, 11-22, 50-200; E 20; C 5050
 
Are you familiar with Karl Popper's ideas about "social
engineering" (and I don't mean it in the Mitnick sense of the
word?)
Err, don't think so. Can only guess what it is. Could you provide a
brief outline please?
Here's a very small nutshell, probably doing tremendous damage to his ideas:

Take essentialism and nominalism in epistemology: "If it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, it's a duck" versus "If it actualizes the essence of a duck, it's a duck."

Take the intersubjective, provisional, negotiated approach to definitions: "If we both agree that it walks and quacks like a duck, we can agree that it's a duck. We can always change our definition later if it proves to be necessary."

Consider a similar approach to norms that define societies:

(1) "If it works, it's a good norm" versus "If it actualizes the essence of a good society, it's a good norm." For example, instead of wondering (for example) "is this norm compatible with Kant's categorical imperative / the Golden Rule / the Bible / the liberation of the proletariat" we consider the question "does this norm make things better or worse in our society?"

(2) Nominalist questions like the one proposed above can be considered with the intersubjective method (including, of course, the question of which questions we should be asking).

Therefore, we shouldn't be trying to construct societies based on essentialist models (revolutionary change), but rather we should concentrate on improving the societies we have. We can examine individual norms, whether or not they contribute the well-being of society, and whether or not we could find better norms that do the job better. This way, we can "engineer" societies in an incremental, evolutive way, rather the same way we engineer engines. We base our intersubjective discussions on objectively verifiable phenomena (e.g. measurable economic and social statistics) but more importantly on our intersubjective agreements about what value we should give them, and what kinds of things we value about society in general.

Popper came up with this structure in response to what he termed utopian, essentialist social philosophies (basically everybody from Plato's Republic to Marx's Communism). He argues that trying to construct a society based on an imagined one that is founded in a philosophy that attempts to describe "the good society" starting from first principles is almost certain to fail at huge human cost. No matter how good the intentions of the guy who described the utopia, once the utopian structure becomes the measure of things, horrible things start to happen.

While Marxism is if not dead at least pining for the fjords, essentialist political philosphies are alive and well, so I think his thinking is quite relevant in today's political landscape too. IMO most of the neo-con disasters stem from this essentialist mindset -- and of course the "Islamofascists" on the other side of the divide are identical in this respect.

Check out Popper's "The Open Society And Its Enemies." Fantastic book.

[snip]

Petteri
--
Me on photography: [ http://www.prime-junta.tk ]
Me on politics: [ http://p-on-p.blogspot.com/ ]
 
this moral relativistic love orgiastic love fest, BUT asking Petteri for a "brief" outline is more than sufficient reason for him to get on his nihilistic soapbox and pontificate ad nauseum!
Are you familiar with Karl Popper's ideas about "social
engineering" (and I don't mean it in the Mitnick sense of the
word?)
Err, don't think so. Can only guess what it is. Could you provide a
brief outline please?
I find the same principles apply quite well to "moral
engineering" as well. After all, morals are the glue that binds
societies together, and you can't really engineer the latter
without touching on the former.
I can easily agree with that.
 
Are you familiar with Karl Popper's ideas about "social
engineering" (and I don't mean it in the Mitnick sense of the
word?)
Err, don't think so. Can only guess what it is. Could you provide a
brief outline please?
Here's a very small nutshell, probably doing tremendous damage to
his ideas:

Take essentialism and nominalism in epistemology: "If it quacks
like a duck and walks like a duck, it's a duck" versus "If it
actualizes the essence of a duck, it's a duck."

Take the intersubjective, provisional, negotiated approach to
definitions: "If we both agree that it walks and quacks like a
duck, we can agree that it's a duck. We can always change our
definition later if it proves to be necessary."

Consider a similar approach to norms that define societies:

(1) "If it works, it's a good norm" versus "If it actualizes the
essence of a good society, it's a good norm." For example, instead
of wondering (for example) "is this norm compatible with Kant's
categorical imperative / the Golden Rule / the Bible / the
liberation of the proletariat" we consider the question "does this
norm make things better or worse in our society?"

(2) Nominalist questions like the one proposed above can be
considered with the intersubjective method (including, of course,
the question of which questions we should be asking).

Therefore, we shouldn't be trying to construct societies based on
essentialist models (revolutionary change), but rather we should
concentrate on improving the societies we have. We can examine
individual norms, whether or not they contribute the well-being of
society, and whether or not we could find better norms that do the
job better. This way, we can "engineer" societies in an
incremental, evolutive way, rather the same way we engineer
engines. We base our intersubjective discussions on objectively
verifiable phenomena (e.g. measurable economic and social
statistics) but more importantly on our intersubjective agreements
about what value we should give them, and what kinds of things we
value about society in general.

Popper came up with this structure in response to what he termed
utopian, essentialist social philosophies (basically everybody from
Plato's Republic to Marx's Communism). He argues that trying to
construct a society based on an imagined one that is founded in a
philosophy that attempts to describe "the good society" starting
from first principles is almost certain to fail at huge human cost.
No matter how good the intentions of the guy who described the
utopia, once the utopian structure becomes the measure of things,
horrible things start to happen.

While Marxism is if not dead at least pining for the fjords,
essentialist political philosphies are alive and well, so I think
his thinking is quite relevant in today's political landscape too.
IMO most of the neo-con disasters stem from this essentialist
mindset -- and of course the "Islamofascists" on the other side of
the divide are identical in this respect.

Check out Popper's "The Open Society And Its Enemies." Fantastic book.

[snip]

Petteri
--
Me on photography: [ http://www.prime-junta.tk ]
Me on politics: [ http://p-on-p.blogspot.com/ ]
 
this moral relativistic love orgiastic love fest, BUT asking
Petteri for a "brief" outline is more than sufficient reason for
him to get on his nihilistic soapbox and pontificate ad nauseum!
Since you're so down on moral relativism, would you care to give an example of what you consider a moral absolute? Tautologies not allowed.

(For example, "murder is unjustifiable" is a tautology, since "murder" means "unjustifiable killing" -> "unjustifiable killing is unjustifiable.")

I'll wager that you'll find it very difficult to come up with one that stands up to scrutiny -- that doesn't turn out to be either a tautology, not an absolute after all (i.e., it's possible to come up with a scenario where applying the "absolute" would lead to morally untenable consequences), or so laden with qualifications that it ceases to be an ethical rule and becomes a description of a situation. Wanna give it a shot?

Petteri
--
Me on photography: [ http://www.prime-junta.tk ]
Me on politics: [ http://p-on-p.blogspot.com/ ]
 
...if the gypsies are offended when I use the term gyped! But I intend to go on offending them! I didn't even know that it refed to them.
How charming! If you insist on using it, at least get the spelling right.

Opinion is divided on whether this is slang or not. According to the Random House Unabridged (US) it's not; according to Collins (UK) and Oxford (UK) it is. However, none of these dictionaries lists it as derogatory.

The verb gyp (gypped, gypping; gypper, gypster) is American and dates from 1885-90. It is a back formation of Gypsy (1505-10), which in turn is a back formation of gipcyan, a variation of Egyptian, from a belief that Gypsies came originally from Egypt.

An alternative spelling is gip, gipped, gipping.

Dafydd
 
European taxes are just too darn high; that and other cultural issues combine to reduce productivity and actually discourage risk taking.
Too high for what? Americans pay in other ways, and pay handsomely.
Neither the US health system nor the US armed forces are cheap, for
example. Where do you think the money comes from? It's certainly
not from exports!
I work for a major European company. The difference in productivity between the American division (which is the only division making any money) and the European divisions is significant. Cost of operation is MUCH lower in the US and productivity is higher.
Well, I'm sure I'm not the only one who's dying to know the name of
this 'major European company'. Your experience is certainly not
shared by some of the major US companies I work for, such as IBM,
despite the much flatter organisations here in Europe and the much
longer and more frequent holidays.
Actually, my experience is similiar to that mentioned by the previous poster. I worked for Siemens for 12 years (left in 1998), on several multi-national projects. I spent considerable time in Munich, Vienna, and Gent. It was often the lament of the management with which I worked that they did not see the same level of productivity from their European workers, and experienced greater costs. As an example, German workers were provided 6 weeks holiday, and additional national and "church" holidays, for which, they were paid time and a half. On average, most American companies offer no more than 3 weeks a year, initially and ramp up after longer terms of employment. What I also noticed was a sense of entitlement by the workers, and it was very difficult to remove someone from a project for poor performance and almost impossible to remove them from their job. I will say that is changing, in some respects. At the very end of my employment, my German colleagues were talking about how the idea of "a job for life" was being left behind, there.
That isn't because we are better workers...
Suggestion: Try longer and more frequent holidays but maintain or
increase production targets. You'd be amazed at what happens!
From personal experience, I never once saw a production target in Europe that was nearly as agressive as those within the US. However, I am not saying that Europeans are not good workers or anything of the sort.
...it's because corprations are freer to abandon unprofictable operations and start up new operations with more potential. (this is an often overlooked aspect of the US economy)
It's not overlooked by Europeans, and it's not exactly uncommon in
Europe, either.

Dafydd
 

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