No orange shift from MIS for Epson?

Andy Small · May 23, 2001

I am not sure if people are aware of this already, but http://www.inksupply.com seem to claim that their refill inks for Epson 870/1270 do not fade toward orange as Epson inks sometimes do, at least as far as Ozone is concerned. They say:
...

Further more, we have tested this ink in our lab for shifting towards orange in the presence of Ozone. We have not seen any tendency for this new ink to shift with any of the Epson papers. When we test with the ink produced by Epson the Orange shift is present. We believe this is caused by the Epson light cyan and light magenta inks. Our equivalent inks do not have this shifting problem. We submitted print samples to independent testers, such as Bob Meyer, and they have confirmed that indeed, the MIS Epson equivalent inks do not shift.--Sung

Michael Thomas Mitchell · May 23, 2001

That does indeed seem to be the case right now. I didn't experience any shifts to begin with, but my MIS prints certainly show no sign of it.

M

Sung Kim said:
I am not sure if people are aware of this already, but
http://www.inksupply.com seem to claim that their refill inks for Epson
870/1270 do not fade toward orange as Epson inks sometimes do, at
least as far as Ozone is concerned. They say:
...
Further more, we have tested this ink in our lab for shifting
towards orange in the presence of Ozone. We have not seen any
tendency for this new ink to shift with any of the Epson papers.
When we test with the ink produced by Epson the Orange shift is
present. We believe this is caused by the Epson light cyan and
light magenta inks. Our equivalent inks do not have this shifting
problem. We submitted print samples to independent testers, such as
Bob Meyer, and they have confirmed that indeed, the MIS Epson
equivalent inks do not shift.
--
Sung

Travis · May 23, 2001

So far so good with the MIS inks... there are some scans on Bob Meyer's site that seem to support this. The MIS inks WILL fade over time just like all other dye inks, but if they have gotten rid of the peculiar orange shift problem, then that's terrific!

Of course, Mediastreet.com makes the same claim regarding their Plug-N-Play inksets for the Epson photo printers:

http://www.mediastreet.com/cgi-bin/tame/mediastreet/ink_bottles.tam?anchor=#top

"If you are looking for an inkset that will not shift or change to orange, you have found them

"

However, I would remain skeptical until more testing is done and more of us use these inks in the Epson printers. But there is definitely potential!

Travis

Bob Meyer · May 23, 2001

Sung Kim said:
I am not sure if people are aware of this already, but
http://www.inksupply.com seem to claim that their refill inks for Epson
870/1270 do not fade toward orange as Epson inks sometimes do, at
least as far as Ozone is concerned. They say:
...
Further more, we have tested this ink in our lab for shifting
towards orange in the presence of Ozone. We have not seen any
tendency for this new ink to shift with any of the Epson papers.
When we test with the ink produced by Epson the Orange shift is
present. We believe this is caused by the Epson light cyan and
light magenta inks. Our equivalent inks do not have this shifting
problem. We submitted print samples to independent testers, such as
Bob Meyer, and they have confirmed that indeed, the MIS Epson
equivalent inks do not shift.

Well, well. I'm the Bob Meyer mentioned in that quote, and I'm afraid I need to get in touch with MIS again.

Yes, MIS did submit a print for me to test, and upon my first review it's true that the Epson OEM inks had orange shifted and the MIS inks had not. BUT, and this is a big BUT, further testing has shown some orange shift on the MIS inks, too. The shift MUCH, MUCH more slowly than the Epson OEM inks, but I wouldn't say they "do not shift."

You can read my own tests, and see an image scan, at:

http://www.meyerweb.net/epson

Cilck on the MIS Inks link in the menu.

Bob Meyer · May 23, 2001

Bob Meyer said:
You can read my own tests, and see an image scan, at:

http://www.meyerweb.net/epson

Cilck on the MIS Inks link in the menu.

I should probably add that in a more normal environment the MIS inks will probably be quite long lived. My tests subject the prints to a constant flow of air, and a fairly high ozone level, which is a rather extreme test, I think.

The MIS inks are, as I said before, certainly much better than the OEM inks iwith respect to orange shift. I've recently begun a light fade comparison of the two inks, too.

Travis · May 23, 2001

Bob, forgive me if you aren't ready to post the information yet, but I'm curious to hear how the fade tests are going with the MIS inks + Epson and the Canon S800 with OEM inks. What has been going on with the sample print I sent you with MIS inks on my 1280?

Also, I noticed in a couple of other threads that you said both printers (Epson 890 and Canon S800) will shift orange at the same rate. Is that statement based on what you've been seeing in your fade tests? Am I understanding correctly that you have confirmed that the prints on the S800 are shifting to orange as well? I know there were a couple of reports of orange shift with the S800 posted on here in the last week or two. Have your tests confirmed it?

Travis

Bob Meyer · May 23, 2001

Travis said:
Bob, forgive me if you aren't ready to post the information yet,
but I'm curious to hear how the fade tests are going with the MIS
inks + Epson and the Canon S800 with OEM inks. What has been going
on with the sample print I sent you with MIS inks on my 1280?

Travis: As of a few days ago, (4 or 5 days of exposure), there didn't seem to be any visible shift on the MIS samples you sent. But there was only very slight shift on the OEM ink sample I printed. I've put them back in for more "baking." I've also got samples in the window. I'll take a look at all of them again on Sunday.

Member said:
Also, I noticed in a couple of other threads that you said both
printers (Epson 890 and Canon S800) will shift orange at the same
rate. Is that statement based on what you've been seeing in your
fade tests? Am I understanding correctly that you have confirmed
that the prints on the S800 are shifting to orange as well? I know
there were a couple of reports of orange shift with the S800 posted
on here in the last week or two. Have your tests confirmed it?

I guess I went an spoiled the surprise . But yes, after 4 or 5 days, both the prints made on my 1270, and the prints made on the s800, were slowing slight orange shift. On all the papers I tried the printers looked identical to each other. The shift was very slight though, and wouldn't show up very well on a scan, so I put them back in for a few more days exposure. Hopefully I'll have scannable results by Sunday. (Samples of these are in my window, too.)

Mark38311 · May 24, 2001

Bob Meyer said:
Well, well. I'm the Bob Meyer mentioned in that quote, and I'm
afraid I need to get in touch with MIS again.
Yes, MIS did submit a print for me to test, and upon my first
review it's true that the Epson OEM inks had orange shifted and the
MIS inks had not. BUT, and this is a big BUT, further testing has
shown some orange shift on the MIS inks, too.

Bob,

Ive seen your site and reviews of the MIS inks regarding orange fade.

I think an important point needs to be emphasized with testing the MIS sample print.
...The print MIS submitted for testing was quite blue to begin with...

Have you had a chance to test two near identical prints (starting color wise) using MIS ink and epsons ink? The results from a test that used near identical prints using the two different inks would seem to be a more accurate test. I can only assume that If I had a print made with Epsons ink that was very blue to begin with, it too would seem to go orange slower.

Im not being critical of you, or your tests. But based on my experience with MIS, and their decietful business practices your recieving a "blue" print for "orange fade" testing was NO accident.

Meanwhile MIS uses your name and tests you've done to make more FALSE claims, now, that their ink does NOT fade to orange....

" We submitted print samples to independent testers, such as Bob Meyer, and they have confirmed that indeed, the MIS Epson equivalent inks do not shift."

You updated your findings April 29th, the above was added to the MIS site May 7th.

The deciet and fraudulent claims made by MIS and their inks continues.....
For now.....

Mark Glessinger

Travis · May 24, 2001

Mark38311 said:
Im not being critical of you, or your tests. But based on my
experience with MIS, and their decietful business practices your
recieving a "blue" print for "orange fade" testing was NO accident.

Forgive me if I seem naive, but I doubt the "blue" print was purposely made that way for Bob to test. Indeed, that bluish/purpish cast is exactly the way my Epson 1280 was printing with the MIS inks when I first got started with refilling. More than likely, the print MIS sent Bob was made with an Epson printer without any slider adjustments.

Mark38311 said:
" We submitted print samples to independent testers, such as Bob
Meyer, and they have confirmed that indeed, the MIS Epson
equivalent inks do not shift."

Without contacting Bob first, they should not have posted that on their website - to that I must agree. On one hand, they are obviously going to make their product look as good as possible... this is the same as any other company (including Epson) will do and has done. However, too much extrapolation or hyperbole does indeed present them in the "grey" area of false advertising.

They do, however, seem to have a good ink alternative though. I'm sure you remember our conversations on this matter not too long ago. Well, I have refilled approximately 6-8 more times with the MIS ink and have NOT needed to adjust the sliders at all anymore. Colors are great and I haven't noticed any shifting (haven't done any testing though). The only problem I've run into is clogging when I first install the cartridge after refilling. It soemtimes takes several head cleans in order to get the nozzles clear again. But once they are clear, I have no more clogs until I change carts again. I suspect this is a result of the actual refilling process - air bubbles OR perhaps just the result of switching carts twice in order to do the chip reset. All of that, however, will hopefully be a thing of the past when I get the CIS from Nomorecarts!

Mark, have you tried the Plug-N-Play inks from Mediastreet.com? They also make the claim that their OEM equivalent inks won't orange shift, but I have not read any reports of anyone using these inks on the Epson photo printers. I have not ordered the bulk ink that I will be using for the CIS on my 1280 yet, so I am trying to find someone who has used the inks on the x70 or x80 printers... basically concerned with color matching and the orange shift.

Travis

PMurphy · May 24, 2001

Bob Meyer said:
You can read my own tests, and see an image scan, at:

http://www.meyerweb.net/epson

I would like to comment here how all of us Epson owners owe Bob Meyer a debt of gratitude for his work on explaining and testing the orange shift problem. I'm also glad to see him in this forum as his opinion is to be valued. Thanks Bob!

Pat

Mark38311 · May 25, 2001

Travis said:
Forgive me if I seem naive, but I doubt the "blue" print was
purposely made that way for Bob to test. Indeed, that
bluish/purpish cast is exactly the way my Epson 1280 was printing
with the MIS inks when I first got started with refilling.

I thought that your original tests were similar to mine.... Red Magenta. NOT blueish toned. If I remember correctly you were subtracting quite a bit of magenta, and adding alot of cyan and subtracting yellow(adding more blue). The blueish toned print Bob recieved is no doubt, very similar to the one I recieved from MIS when I first complained to them, that their ink was printing very much on the red/magenta side.

Take the sample scans Bob has on his site into photoshop and carefully make the MIS ink scan top half look like the Epson printed scan. If you allow the bottom half ( the part that was subjected to testing) change with the top half of the MIS print the orange shift is MUCH more prominant.

Member said:
Member said:

" We submitted print samples to independent testers, such as Bob
Meyer, and they have confirmed that indeed, the MIS Epson
equivalent inks do not shift."

Click to expand...

Without contacting Bob first, they should not have posted that on
their website - to that I must agree. On one hand, they are
obviously going to make their product look as good as possible...
this is the same as any other company (including Epson) will do and
has done. However, too much extrapolation or hyperbole does indeed
present them in the "grey" area of false advertising.

MIS is USING an initial report by Bob Myers to FALSELY promote their product. Bob had updated his report BEFORE MIS used his findings. Do you really think that the folks at MIS were unaware that his site was updated, or that their ink also exhibitted the orange shift?

It is claims like the one that MIS is making that MAY harm Bob Myers reputation as an independant tester. Look at this thread... Some people are reading those claims by MIS, and believe MIS sells the only ink that does not shift. (Bob Myers tested it and says there is no orange shift)

Bob Myers has done a great job and service to all Epson printer users. If the folks at MIS were as honest as they would like everyone to believe, why dont they post Bobs UPDATED test results?

MIS is in the business of selling ink,and making FRAUDULENT claims about their ink. This time they have involved Bob Myers, and DISTORTING HIS ACTUAL test results.

What MIS is doing goes beyond false advertising. Its pathetic to see them use Bob Myers name as an independant tester to falsely confirm their claim of no orange shifting.

Member said:
They do, however, seem to have a good ink alternative though. I'm
sure you remember our conversations on this matter not too long
ago.

A "good" ink alternative does not give them License to make fraudulent claims, in the name of selling more ink.

Member said:
Mark, have you tried the Plug-N-Play inks from Mediastreet.com?

I havent tried them yet, but did contact them about their ink. There response was that their ink WAS" NOT an EXACT match to Epsons, but VERY similar".

Imagine that..... an HONEST ink supplier.

Mark

Bob Meyer · May 25, 2001

Mark said:
Ive seen your site and reviews of the MIS inks regarding orange fade.
I think an important point needs to be emphasized with testing the
MIS sample print.
...The print MIS submitted for testing was quite blue to begin with...

Have you had a chance to test two near identical prints (starting
color wise) using MIS ink and epsons ink? The results from a test
that used near identical prints using the two different inks would
seem to be a more accurate test. I can only assume that If I had a
print made with Epsons ink that was very blue to begin with, it too
would seem to go orange slower.

I'm testing a 2nd set of prints now. The new MIS prints are much closer in color balance to my 1270 prints, although still not identical (a bit green, actually). I've also received a 3rd set of MIS ink prints which I'll start testing this weekend.

I've thought about the blue color balance and it's affect on the tests. I don't think it's responsible for the better performance of the MIS inks. While it's true that if you compared eqaully shifted prints from MIS and OEM inks the MIS print would appear less orange, that's not all I did. Comparing the relative difference between the control and test samples, there's a much greater delta in the OEM print than the MIS print. Remember that on my first review, the OS was clearly visible on the OEM print, but not visible at all on the MIS print. That tells me the OS was occuring more slowly with the MIS inks.

Mark38311 said:
Im not being critical of you, or your tests. But based on my
experience with MIS, and their decietful business practices your
recieving a "blue" print for "orange fade" testing was NO accident.

That I can't say, but other users of the MIS prints have told me they come out a bit too blue using the Epson driver settings, too.

Mark38311 said:
Meanwhile MIS uses your name and tests you've done to make more
FALSE claims, now, that their ink does NOT fade to orange....

This does bother me, and I've sent an e-mail to MIS asking them to remove this statement from their site, and inviting them to put a link to my site in it's place.

Mark38311 · May 25, 2001

Bob M. said:
I've thought about the blue color balance and it's affect on the
tests. I don't think it's responsible for the better performance
of the MIS inks.

Based on your tests, it does seem that the MIS ink prints are SLOWER to shift to orange, or a warmer tone. While the blue tone may not be resposible for the slower fading/shifting, it somewhat masks the OS and how quickly it becomes apparent.

Bob Meyer said:
That tells me the OS was occuring more slowly with the MIS inks.

This is something that MIS has distorted into a sales pitch of "our inks DONT shift"

Bob Meyer said:
That I can't say, but other users of the MIS prints have told me
they come out a bit too blue using the Epson driver settings, too.

I guess the color balance of prints was dependent on which "version" of ink a person recieved from MIS, as well as printers. I have recieved several versions of their ink to use in my 1200's and 860. The 1200's I printed with , printed very warm, the 860 also printed warm yet not as pronounced as the 1200's.

Bob Meyer said:
Bob Meyer said:

Meanwhile MIS uses your name and tests you've done to make more
FALSE claims, now, that their ink does NOT fade to orange....

Click to expand...

This does bother me, and I've sent an e-mail to MIS asking them to
remove this statement from their site, and inviting them to put a
link to my site in it's place.

GOOD LUCK, based on my dealings with MIS getting them to do so may take quite a bit of doing.

Mark

Travis · May 25, 2001

Mark38311 said:
I thought that your original tests were similar to mine.... Red
Magenta. NOT blueish toned. If I remember correctly you were
subtracting quite a bit of magenta, and adding alot of cyan and
subtracting yellow(adding more blue).

Look at my original post when I first started using the refills. Look under the "initial testing" header in my post:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1003&page=1&message=1017926

As you will see, I said "the dark brown hair on the subject was tinted PURPLE". The purple I referred to there was just like the purplish/bluish tint on the hair of Bob's MIS sample. Once I adjusted the sliders, the purple cast on hair was gone and browns looked good again.

Mark38311 said:
Take the sample scans Bob has on his site into photoshop and
carefully make the MIS ink scan top half look like the Epson
printed scan. If you allow the bottom half ( the part that was
subjected to testing) change with the top half of the MIS print the
orange shift is MUCH more prominant.

I have to agree with Bob that it seems like the MIS print has shifted much less. Although I can't state with 100% certainly that you are wrong, I don't believe the bluish cast contributed to the less noticeable shift.

Furthermore, I have to wonder if ANY of the lightfast equivalent inks would show NO shifting after being subjected to Bob's fade tests. I don't think the purpose of doing these fade tests is to test the inks for fading in general. Obviously, under that amount of exposure, we wouldn't be surprised to see some shifting with any of these inks (except maybe the archival inks). BUT what we DO want to discover is if they have the peculiar orange shifting that makes the fading process irregular and accelerated.

A real determination has to be made: Are the MIS inks shifting to orange or are they simply fading naturally like we would expect under those conditions? If they ARE shifting to orange in the same way as Epson's, are they doing it more slowly, at the same rate, or faster? And furthermore, are there any other fading/shifting problems that are apparent with the MIS inks that are NOT apparent with the MIS inks.

Now then, this has to be done not only with the MIS inks, but any other ink supplier that makes the claim that they don't have the shifting problem. This means that your "honest" supplier - Mediastreet - has to be put through the same tests with their Plug-N-Play inks. And although they might not make the claim that their colors are "exact", they DO indeed say on their website the following: "If you are looking for an inkset that will not shift or change to orange, you have found them

" This statement is just as bold as the MIS statements and will have to be proved as well.

Personally, I suspect that this shifting problem will be around for some time. With reports now from two users on here and Bob's intial testing that the Canon S800 also shifts, I think it's safe to assume that we have not come as far with longevity as we had onced hoped. The archival solutions such as the Epson 2000P, along with some of the 3rd party archival inks may fare much better in this respect. But those solutions come at a cost - financially, media-wise, and in color gamut.

Travis

Don Donikowski · May 25, 2001

Mark...It is obvious to all that the only color that isn't going to shift for you is your "brown" atitude. Get a different ink supplier and get off of your "royal horse" or... enlighten us with what camera(s) you use and how they are setup, your monitor, photo program, the scanner? How is it color matched to your camera and monitor?- the papers you print on, precisely what your settings are, resolution, profiles? -as in "What you see is what you..." You know, Old Pro, How do YOU setup your color coordination? What color(s) are the lights in your work room? By the way, do you runprint quality checks or color charts? No one is trying to cheat or mislead you. See the light Mark... It isn't a perfect subject or art. Ever take a print outside and look at it? The difference can be amazing.

You are expecting perfection from an art. Then tell us why you are so hostile. Traditional photography is a starting point. Not an education in Inkjet printing.

Each print size you make changes the attributes of the subject, do you know how to allow for this? Have you ever worked with 6 color printing? I have for many years. I owned an offset printing business and was a consultant doing printing supervision as well. Your attacks on MIS are not neccessary. Anyone can be a critic. Show us your credentials. Show us -in fact PROVE you are being cheated, lied to, misled. In fact tho, all colors including black will change with time alone. Any media too. It's impossible to produce a product subject to an infinite range of user experience, ability, preference and equipment settings that will please everyone all at once. We all know this is art. If you do not like the ink, buy some elsewhere and start over. I did...and never once attacked the manufacturer of it. I simply tried another. Have some class.

By the way...did you use virgin cartridges, or did you refill over the original ink? Had no choice? It does matter. This forum is for info and sharing, not for bashing over and over. Your mission would be best served elsewhere.
DD

Mark said:
Bob Meyer said:

Well, well. I'm the Bob Meyer mentioned in that quote, and I'm
afraid I need to get in touch with MIS again.
Yes, MIS did submit a print for me to test, and upon my first
review it's true that the Epson OEM inks had orange shifted and the
MIS inks had not. BUT, and this is a big BUT, further testing has
shown some orange shift on the MIS inks, too.

Click to expand...

Bob,

Ive seen your site and reviews of the MIS inks regarding orange fade.
I think an important point needs to be emphasized with testing the
MIS sample print.
...The print MIS submitted for testing was quite blue to begin with...

Have you had a chance to test two near identical prints (starting
color wise) using MIS ink and epsons ink? The results from a test
that used near identical prints using the two different inks would
seem to be a more accurate test. I can only assume that If I had a
print made with Epsons ink that was very blue to begin with, it too
would seem to go orange slower.
Im not being critical of you, or your tests. But based on my
experience with MIS, and their decietful business practices your
recieving a "blue" print for "orange fade" testing was NO accident.

Meanwhile MIS uses your name and tests you've done to make more
FALSE claims, now, that their ink does NOT fade to orange....

" We submitted print samples to independent testers, such as Bob
Meyer, and they have confirmed that indeed, the MIS Epson
equivalent inks do not shift."

You updated your findings April 29th, the above was added to the
MIS site May 7th.

The deciet and fraudulent claims made by MIS and their inks
continues.....
For now.....

Mark Glessinger

Mark38311 · May 25, 2001

Don Donikowski said:
Mark...It is obvious to all that the only color that isn't going to
shift for you is your "brown" atitude.

It also obvious that the sole purpose of your post to me is an attempt at bashing...... something you condem me for. Its also obvious you choose to defend the actions of YOUR ink supplier, and friend Bob, at MIS.

Member said:
Get a different ink supplier and get off of your "royal horse"

ARE YOU saying that its OK for MIS to make FALSE, Misleading, and Fraudulent claims regarding their ink? Are you still "beta testing" MIS FS inks for them? That would explain your attitude towards me....

Member said:
or... enlighten us with what
camera(s) you use and how they are setup, your monitor, photo
program, the scanner?

I use photoshop 6.01, a Sony monitor,Epson 1200 printer and an 860 as a back up as well. My Scanners and cameras are irrelevant,. (Unless of course your buddy, Bob at MIS gave you my address and you would like to burglarize my home) they figured NO part in my testing

Member said:
precisely what your settings are, resolution,

I could go on and outline my entire workflow for you, but it would be rather lenghthy. go to http://www.computer-darkroom.co.uk/ Ian Lyons does a great job of stepping you through any workflow problems YOU may be having.

Member said:
profiles? -as in "What you see is what you..."

Why would I need a profile? MIS claims an "EXACT" match to Epsons inks. I was able to obtain respectable prints using Epsons inks. Its interesting that you mention "what you see is what you...", Im sure your pal Bob at MIS shared with you that I even Purchased the wiziwyg program through him in an attempt to get the junk ink he sent me, profiled to work.

Member said:
You know, Old Pro, How do YOU setup your color coordination?

Unlike you I NEVER "claimed' to be a pro. I simply have several years experience color correcting digital prints for the areas largerest school photoraphic company. I dont have a degree in color management, nor should I or any other person need one... if the claims made by MIS were FACTUAL rather than Fictitious.

Member said:
What color(s) are the lights in your work room?
By the way, do you run print quality checks or color charts?

I use GE 75 watt bulbs postioned exactly 5.8 feet from my monitor, I have all the windows and doors boarded up and no external light can reflect on my monitor. I also have a black cloth hood I designed that completely encapsulates my monitor,I stick my head in the other end of the cloth hood so as not to alllow stray light hit my monitor. I suppose I could buy some 6500k lights to illuminate my work area, but that would defeat the purpose of the hood. GET REAL WOULD YOU? How many people in this or other forums would go through such lenghts? Most people simply want to make some prints at a reduced cost. WITHOUT the hassles and extra expenses you seem to think is nessasary.

Member said:
No one is trying to cheat or mislead you.

Not any more, Ive already been cheated and mislead by your pal Bob at MIS. There continues to be many people being misled by MIS every day though.

Member said:
See the light Mark... It isn't a perfect subject or art.You are expecting perfection from an art.

I never expected perfection. I DID, as do many others, expect a product that comes close to its HYPE though. I also expected a bit of honesty when dealing with your "inkman Bob" at MIS.

Member said:
Have you ever worked with 6 color printing?

I have for many years. I owned an offset printing business and was a > consultant doing printing supervision as well.

GREAT!!!!, If your ever near me stop by, I still have some of the original JUNK ink I was sold. Maybe you can teach me a few things. (your "inkman" has my address)

Member said:
Your attacks on MIS are not neccessary. Anyone can be a critic.

My "Attacks on MIS" are not "attacks".... I Simply relay MY experience I encountered with Bob at MIS, their inks, and their fraudulent claims.... its people like you that turn to attacks

Member said:
Show us -in fact PROVE you are being cheated, lied to, misled.

With THIS site owners permission (due to the number of emails) I would/will copy and paste EACH email I sent to Bob at MIS, and each one HE sent me. I would also copy and paste an email a friend of mine sent MIS, and the reply he was sent. I could also post receipts from Epson showing I had my printer replaced, when Bob from MIS INSISTED the problem was my printer NOT his ink. AFTER I had the printer replaced Bob fessed up that his "old Version" of ink printed heavily magenta, and that I "might have gotten some old ink"

Aside from my experiences with MIS, a quick look at their website and the claims they make is proof enough.

Member said:
By the way...did you use virgin cartridges, or did you refill over
the original ink?

I used VIRGIN cartridges with EACH version of MIS ink.

Member said:
Had no choice?

Sure I did... Got the empties from MIS.

Member said:
It does matter.

OF COURSE it matters! Im the one that has been saying that all along. Many people have been refilling EPSON cartridges with MIS inks, and making claims that the MIS inks are identical in color to epsons based on first refill impressions.

Member said:
This forum is for info and sharing,

EXACTLY what Im doing.... SHARING INFO, and MY EXPERIENCE using MIS inks. Unfortunately that includes the deciet, and fraudulent claims made by them. It also unfortunately brings out people like you that feel the need to launch personal attacks simply because we have had different experiences dealing with MIS.

Member said:
Have some class.

I didnt search you out and attack you...Unless your real name is Bob and you are from MIS.... Take your own advice

As long as MIS continues to make FALSE claims regarding THEIR inks, people that are looking to purchase third party inks need, and deserve to know that not all claims made by MIS are accurate.

I WAS NOT bashing.... I'm SHARING info based on my experiences dealing with MIS.

What was the motive for YOUR posrt?

Mark Glessinger

Mark38311 · May 25, 2001

Travis said:
As you will see, I said "the dark brown hair on the subject was
tinted PURPLE".

Sorry, I "thought" you said you were experiencing the same red magenta color cast I originally had, not purple.

Member said:
I have to agree with Bob that it seems like the MIS print has
shifted much less. Although I can't state with 100% certainly that
you are wrong, I don't believe the bluish cast contributed to the
less noticeable shift.

I agree with Bob as well, the MIS ink "seems" to have shifted less.

Member said:
A real determination has to be made: Are the MIS inks shifting to
orange or are they simply fading naturally like we would expect
under those conditions? If they ARE shifting to orange in the same
way as Epson's, are they doing it more slowly, at the same rate, or
faster?

The MIS supplied print Bob used is the FIRST variable that would need to be removed from the equation. As I understand it, he has in fact eliminated that variable and is in the process of testing an MIS ink made print that is closer to a neutural color.

Member said:
Now then, this has to be done not only with the MIS inks, but any
other ink supplier that makes the claim that they don't have the
shifting problem. This means that your "honest" supplier -
Mediastreet - has to be put through the same tests with their
Plug-N-Play inks.

AGREED. I am Not saying that Mediastreet is honest or dishonest at this point, just that I admired their honesty when posed with the question of how close their inks were to Epsons OEM ink.

Member said:
And although they might not make the claim that
their colors are "exact", they DO indeed say on their website the
following: "If you are looking for an inkset that will not shift
or change to orange, you have found them" This statement is
just as bold as the MIS statements and will have to be proved as
well.

MIS stepped over the edge of bold, into BS, when they used Bob Myers name as if he somehow endorsed or confirmed their own independent tests.

"Bold statements" are one thing but MIS is stating their ink DOES not SHIFT as FACT based on tests done by Bob Myers.... when IN FACT his tests have shown otherwise.

Member said:
Personally, I suspect that this shifting problem will be around for
some time. With reports now from two users on here and Bob's
intial testing that the Canon S800 also shifts, I think it's safe
to assume that we have not come as far with longevity as we had
onced hoped. The archival solutions such as the Epson 2000P, along
with some of the 3rd party archival inks may fare much better in
this respect. But those solutions come at a cost - financially,
media-wise, and in color gamut.

I guess we could do as another forum member suggests...laminate EVERYTHING. Talk about expense!

After my experiences with MIS, I cant bring myself to be the ink tester using Media streets inks.... YOU FIRST....
try em and let me know how it works out

Mark

Travis · May 25, 2001

If Don is the MIS defender and Mark is the MIS critic, then perhaps I fall somewhere in the middle. I think you are both out of line, but after this post, I'm sure you'll both submit that I am as well... but I promise to behave! ;-) I'll only address remarks that I found objectionable:

Mark38311 said:
It also obvious that the sole purpose of your post to me is an
attempt at bashing...... something you condem me for. Its also
obvious you choose to defend the actions of YOUR ink supplier, and
friend Bob, at MIS.

I would agree that Don was out of line in his initial reply. However, some of your wording invited the remarks. Indeed, MIS does have a pretty good reputation and there have been quite a few users other than Don who have posted favorable remarks. If Don has had good experiences with MIS - and even if he is "friends" with Bob - there's nothing wrong with that and why not offer his supporting remarks? On the other hand, you clearly had unfavorable dealings with them, so your experiences are also valid.

Mark38311 said:
Why would I need a profile? MIS claims an "EXACT" match to Epsons
inks.

If you are referring to the info at http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/epsoninks.html then I would have to disagree... to a point. On their site, they say:

"These inks are exactly the same as the ink Epson uses in their cartridges. They are dye based waterfast inks made specifically for the printers listed. Each ink has been adjusted for viscosity, drying time, color balance, and surface tension."

I don't know about everyone else, but I never expected the MIS inks to be "exact" in color. Although the paragraph above states that they are "exactly the same as the ink Epson uses in their cartridges", I did not interpret this to mean the colors would be exactly the same. Rather, I interpreted it to mean that they are dye-based lightfast inks just like Epson's. Obviously, we don't want them to be EXACTLY the same as Epson's because Epson's shift to ORANGE! I do think, however, they should also point out that slider adjustments and/or profiling MAY be necessary (depending on the printer).

Mark38311 said:
Not any more, Ive already been cheated and mislead by your pal Bob
at MIS. There continues to be many people being misled by MIS
every day though.

You are only misled if you are naive and literal in interpretation. After everything that has happened with Epson's claims about THEIR ink/paper, it is quite clear that we should ALL be skeptical of any claims being made. For example, both MIS and Mediastreet claim to have eliminated the orange shift problem, yet we don't know whether it's actually true or not. If you buy the MIS ink (or any other 3rd party ink) with the understanding that you may have to make some color adjustments, then you won't be misled. I think you have taken this a little too far. Bob Meyer has a legitimate gripe since they used his results without permission and without the update. And if they don't remove and/or correct the statement, then I would certainly be angry. No one is stating that they are the perfect company, but if their ink is good and reasonably priced, then don't insist that we are all being misled.

Mark38311 said:
GREAT!!!!, If your ever near me stop by, I still have some of the
original JUNK ink I was sold. Maybe you can teach me a few things.
(your "inkman" has my address)

JUNK ink? So basically you are saying that since the colors weren't EXACTLY like Epson's that the ink is junk, huh? Oooookay. Well I've been using the ink for a while now, and I would certainly disagree. I had to make some slider adjustments to get what I wanted, but for the last 6 or 7 refills, I have been getting equally good prints as Epson's without any further need for adjustment. If you sole argument against the ink itself if the fact that the colors aren't exact without adjustments, then you'd pretty much have to say that all other 3rd party ink is junk too!

Anyway, can't we just be nice and admit that there really is no perfect solution yet? Your experiences with MIS have to be considered just as much as the others we have read about. Generally speaking, however, most of what I have read regarding MIS has been good. And my own experiences thus far have supported that. Until I get burned, I'll stick with them. But if I DO get burned, rest assured that I will post my experiences as well...

Travis

Travis · May 25, 2001

Mark38311 said:
Sorry, I "thought" you said you were experiencing the same red
magenta color cast I originally had, not purple.

Well, I did have to reduce the magenta in the sliders. I think it is the magenta that causes the purplish tint, not the blue ink. So that would still coincide with your original assumption. I don't think I ever had any of the "old" heavily magenta ink though...

Mark38311 said:
The MIS supplied print Bob used is the FIRST variable that would
need to be removed from the equation. As I understand it, he has in
fact eliminated that variable and is in the process of testing an
MIS ink made print that is closer to a neutural color.

Yes, I am one who has given Bob Meyer a sample to test. Mine won't be 100% accurate, however, since I did not use virgin empties. If anything, mine had a slight green cast rather than blue/purple. We'll see what happens with it... Once I get the CIS, I will be able to make a sample using 100% MIS inks, so perhaps I could send another sample to Bob?

Mark38311 said:
AGREED. I am Not saying that Mediastreet is honest or dishonest
at this point, just that I admired their honesty when posed with
the question of how close their inks were to Epsons OEM ink.

Now come'on Mark! You DID say Mediastreet is honest: "Imagine that... an HONEST..." Or were you just being misleading? hehee. Just teasing!

Mark38311 said:
MIS stepped over the edge of bold, into BS, when they used Bob
Myers name as if he somehow endorsed or confirmed their own
independent tests.
"Bold statements" are one thing but MIS is stating their ink DOES
not SHIFT as FACT based on tests done by Bob Myers.... when IN FACT
his tests have shown otherwise.

Well I agree they should have used Bob in that way, but I don't think there is much difference between the claims. And if Mediastreet's ink turns orange too, then someone who used them will be making the same statements that YOU made about MIS: that they are misleading, fraudulent, blah blah blah. Don't you think?

Mark38311 said:
I guess we could do as another forum member suggests...laminate
EVERYTHING. Talk about expense!

Or just make sure they are covered in a photo album or frame. The vast majority of my prints are stored in that way, but not all of the people I make prints for might not right away, so I still have a great interest in finding a solution to this problem.

Mark38311 said:
After my experiences with MIS, I cant bring myself to be the ink
tester using Media streets inks.... YOU FIRST....
try em and let me know how it works out

LOL! Well, I would be happy to try Mediastreet's ink if they offered it in cartridge form. Then I could just buy a cart with their ink and try it out. However, I don't see them available for the Epson x70/x80 printers - just bulk ink. And I have NO desire to refill another cart with different ink at this time.

Travis

Don Donikowski · May 25, 2001

Mark, I'm glad you got my intent. you proved every point I made. Read my past posts. I'm not concerned with bashing. You are simply on a mission against MIS. I am not part of MIS. In fact if you read my profile you saw that I live in CA. I pay full price for my ink and supplies. As anyone else would. No freebies, no obligations. I am very pleased with MIS Full Spectrum ink and wish to convey that message to everyone reading this forum. As I said, if you don't like the ink, do not use it. Move on. I am not bashing you. I'm pointing out to all that you have a lousy atitude and ought to clean it up. You had problems. OK, they didn't get resolved to your satisfaction. You stated your displeasure. We've read about it many times. Now change ink. I personally don't need assistance for my workflow, but thanx for ref. Bob is my friend, but I am using his ink because it worked so well for me. Yes I am beta testing the FS ink. Do you know what that means? I pay for it, use it on my paper, at my expense then report results, observations and suggestions to him so he can make a better product for people like you AND me. Too bad you can't understand the process. Leave out the derogatories like "fraudulent" ficticious". State your concerns and leave out the name calling. Oh by the way... I too sent back an Epson 1200. I also used Epson carts in it. While I'm on the subject, your digital input is very relevant to the final printed piece.
Now go change ink.
DD

Mark said:
Don Donikowski said:

Mark...It is obvious to all that the only color that isn't going to
shift for you is your "brown" atitude.

Click to expand...

It also obvious that the sole purpose of your post to me is an
attempt at bashing...... something you condem me for. Its also
obvious you choose to defend the actions of YOUR ink supplier, and
friend Bob, at MIS.

Mark38311 said:

Get a different ink supplier and get off of your "royal horse"

Click to expand...

ARE YOU saying that its OK for MIS to make FALSE, Misleading, and
Fraudulent claims regarding their ink? Are you still "beta testing"
MIS FS inks for them? That would explain your attitude towards
me....

Mark38311 said:

or... enlighten us with what
camera(s) you use and how they are setup, your monitor, photo
program, the scanner?

Click to expand...

I use photoshop 6.01, a Sony monitor,Epson 1200 printer and an 860
as a back up as well. My Scanners and cameras are irrelevant,.
(Unless of course your buddy, Bob at MIS gave you my address and
you would like to burglarize my home) they figured NO part in my
testing

Mark38311 said:

precisely what your settings are, resolution,

Click to expand...

I could go on and outline my entire workflow for you, but it would
be rather lenghthy. go to http://www.computer-darkroom.co.uk/
Ian Lyons does a great job of stepping you through any workflow
problems YOU may be having.

Mark38311 said:

profiles? -as in "What you see is what you..."

Click to expand...

Why would I need a profile? MIS claims an "EXACT" match to Epsons
inks. I was able to obtain respectable prints using Epsons inks.
Its interesting that you mention "what you see is what you...", Im
sure your pal Bob at MIS shared with you that I even Purchased the
wiziwyg program through him in an attempt to get the junk ink he
sent me, profiled to work.

Mark38311 said:

You know, Old Pro, How do YOU setup your color coordination?

Click to expand...

Unlike you I NEVER "claimed' to be a pro. I simply have several
years experience color correcting digital prints for the areas
largerest school photoraphic company. I dont have a degree in color
management, nor should I or any other person need one... if the
claims made by MIS were FACTUAL rather than Fictitious.

Mark38311 said:

What color(s) are the lights in your work room?
By the way, do you run print quality checks or color charts?

Click to expand...

I use GE 75 watt bulbs postioned exactly 5.8 feet from my monitor,
I have all the windows and doors boarded up and no external light
can reflect on my monitor. I also have a black cloth hood I
designed that completely encapsulates my monitor,I stick my head in
the other end of the cloth hood so as not to alllow stray light hit
my monitor. I suppose I could buy some 6500k lights to illuminate
my work area, but that would defeat the purpose of the hood. GET
REAL WOULD YOU? How many people in this or other forums would go
through such lenghts? Most people simply want to make some prints
at a reduced cost. WITHOUT the hassles and extra expenses you seem
to think is nessasary.

Mark38311 said:

No one is trying to cheat or mislead you.

Click to expand...

Not any more, Ive already been cheated and mislead by your pal Bob
at MIS. There continues to be many people being misled by MIS
every day though.

Mark38311 said:

See the light Mark... It isn't a perfect subject or art.You are expecting perfection from an art.

Click to expand...

I never expected perfection. I DID, as do many others, expect a
product that comes close to its HYPE though. I also expected a
bit of honesty when dealing with your "inkman Bob" at MIS.

Mark38311 said:

Have you ever worked with 6 color printing?

I have for many years. I owned an offset printing business and was a > consultant doing printing supervision as well.

Click to expand...

GREAT!!!!, If your ever near me stop by, I still have some of the
original JUNK ink I was sold. Maybe you can teach me a few things.
(your "inkman" has my address)

Mark38311 said:

Your attacks on MIS are not neccessary. Anyone can be a critic.

Click to expand...

My "Attacks on MIS" are not "attacks".... I Simply relay MY
experience I encountered with Bob at MIS, their inks, and their
fraudulent claims.... its people like you that turn to attacks

Mark38311 said:

Show us -in fact PROVE you are being cheated, lied to, misled.

Click to expand...

With THIS site owners permission (due to the number of emails) I
would/will copy and paste EACH email I sent to Bob at MIS, and each
one HE sent me. I would also copy and paste an email a friend of
mine sent MIS, and the reply he was sent. I could also post
receipts from Epson showing I had my printer replaced, when Bob
from MIS INSISTED the problem was my printer NOT his ink. AFTER I
had the printer replaced Bob fessed up that his "old Version" of
ink printed heavily magenta, and that I "might have gotten some old
ink"

Aside from my experiences with MIS, a quick look at their website
and the claims they make is proof enough.

Mark38311 said:

By the way...did you use virgin cartridges, or did you refill over
the original ink?

Click to expand...

I used VIRGIN cartridges with EACH version of MIS ink.

Mark38311 said:

Had no choice?

Click to expand...

Sure I did... Got the empties from MIS.

Mark38311 said:

It does matter.

Click to expand...

OF COURSE it matters! Im the one that has been saying that all
along. Many people have been refilling EPSON cartridges with MIS
inks, and making claims that the MIS inks are identical in color to
epsons based on first refill impressions.

Mark38311 said:

This forum is for info and sharing,

Click to expand...

EXACTLY what Im doing.... SHARING INFO, and MY EXPERIENCE using MIS
inks. Unfortunately that includes the deciet, and fraudulent claims
made by them. It also unfortunately brings out people like you that
feel the need to launch personal attacks simply because we have had
different experiences dealing with MIS.

Mark38311 said:

Have some class.

Click to expand...

I didnt search you out and attack you...Unless your real name is
Bob and you are from MIS.... Take your own advice

As long as MIS continues to make FALSE claims regarding THEIR inks,
people that are looking to purchase third party inks need, and
deserve to know that not all claims made by MIS are accurate.

I WAS NOT bashing.... I'm SHARING info based on my experiences
dealing with MIS.

What was the motive for YOUR posrt?

Mark Glessinger

No orange shift from MIS for Epson?

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