Minolta challenge

Phil c said

"I hope those E10 owners feel better, though, after j* king each other off about how great the E10 is... Progress and obsolescence... "

Do you realize(maybe you don't care) that you've just alienated yourself from the entire Olympus SLR forum with that poorly thought out comment. What were you thinking? You could have easily expressed your opinion with a little more respect to everyone here and most importantly showed that you have class and not the maturity of a 5 year old. Personally, I hate to say, I will bypass any comment or post of yours from now on and I'm sure most others who read your comment were just as offended and will do the same. Best of luck wherever you go!

Bill H
 
Bill,

Sorry that you are so sensitive...

Phil C
Phil c said
"I hope those E10 owners feel better, though, after j* king each
other off about how great the E10 is... Progress and
obsolescence... "


Do you realize(maybe you don't care) that you've just alienated
yourself from the entire Olympus SLR forum with that poorly thought
out comment. What were you thinking? You could have easily
expressed your opinion with a little more respect to everyone here
and most importantly showed that you have class and not the
maturity of a 5 year old. Personally, I hate to say, I will bypass
any comment or post of yours from now on and I'm sure most others
who read your comment were just as offended and will do the same.
Best of luck wherever you go!

Bill H
 
Sorry, but that was the best way to describe what is going on in this thread...

Phil
Well, Phil - it's good that you're entertained. With commentary
like that, you have just proven that you don't belong on ANY forum
anywhere.

Oh, by the way, your bus is waiting outside. It's the big blue
one with BFI printed on it...
 
So you are emotionally attached to a camera... Hmmm... Strange...

Phil
Bill H
LOL! This thread is so funny to read, especially the responses
from E10 owners! Already bashing the Minolta when a production
model hasn't been tested yet.

I hope those E10 owners feel better, though, after j* king each
other off about how great the E10 is...


Progress and obsolescence...

Phil

PS I own an E10 and I do think it is a good camera with some
obvious deficiencies. But I also look forward to future digital
cameras kicking the E10's butt and being less expensive.
 
I read with amusement, the opinions of all in this thread. Unfortunately, I lost interest when trolls such as Phil C likes to join without the maturity to express a thought.

The Minolta looks to be an interesting camera. Is it in the same class as the E-10. I have no idea what that means. I hope it takes great shots for its owners and will be admired by its ownders as much as I admire mine.
Mike
Sorry that you are so sensitive...

Phil C
Phil c said
"I hope those E10 owners feel better, though, after j* king each
other off about how great the E10 is... Progress and
obsolescence... "


Do you realize(maybe you don't care) that you've just alienated
yourself from the entire Olympus SLR forum with that poorly thought
out comment. What were you thinking? You could have easily
expressed your opinion with a little more respect to everyone here
and most importantly showed that you have class and not the
maturity of a 5 year old. Personally, I hate to say, I will bypass
any comment or post of yours from now on and I'm sure most others
who read your comment were just as offended and will do the same.
Best of luck wherever you go!

Bill H
 
Phil,

Sensitive? Nah, not at all. I can be an ass too. I also complain too much, or so my wife says. We all slip sometimes saying stupid things but you fell flat on your face.
Time to grow up dude.

Bill H
Sorry that you are so sensitive...

Phil C
Phil c said
"I hope those E10 owners feel better, though, after j* king each
other off about how great the E10 is... Progress and
obsolescence... "


Do you realize(maybe you don't care) that you've just alienated
yourself from the entire Olympus SLR forum with that poorly thought
out comment. What were you thinking? You could have easily
expressed your opinion with a little more respect to everyone here
and most importantly showed that you have class and not the
maturity of a 5 year old. Personally, I hate to say, I will bypass
any comment or post of yours from now on and I'm sure most others
who read your comment were just as offended and will do the same.
Best of luck wherever you go!

Bill H
 
With a mirror I would not have silent operation and a live LCD.
Also, for long exposures I would have mirror shake.
I don't like silent operation. I like knowing that the camera has shot the image. A live image preview is nice, but I would rather have a faster shutter speed and less noise. The E-10 image preview isn't even very good. I would never use it.
With mirror lock up, there is no mirror shake.
The beam splitter, if it does contribute to noise, most likely
results in the E-10 having the same amount of noise at ISO80 with
the beam splitter as it would at ISO100 with a mirror. All in all
a very acceptable trade off. However, I don't think that the beam
splitter has any material impact on noise. The reduction in light
reaching the CCD is easily made up for by having a F2/2.4 lens.
Wouldn't you rather have a fast lens and ISO 100 with less noise.
The Minolta will get slightly more detail and like the E-10 will be
silent and not have mirror shake. However, for people who want to
see the actual subject through the camera lens and want the build
quality, stability and ergonomics of a high quality 35mm camera the
E-10 is still the only camera in its price range to offer these
features.
That is true. The Miinolta looks like a really cheap camcorder. The controls are horrible. Unless the image quality is better there would be no reason to buy the Minolta.
As far as noise is concerned the preproduction Minolta pictures
have about the same amount of noise as the E-10. Unless, the
production model is much bettter this will not be a potential
reason to prefer the Minolta over the E-10.
You may be right, the Minolta does have smaller pixels. However the images were probably shot at higher ISOs than the E10 images you are looking at.
 
No, I hit the nail squarely on the head... That you are upset by it proves my point about your E10 circle j* k

Phil
Sensitive? Nah, not at all. I can be an ass too. I also complain
too much, or so my wife says. We all slip sometimes saying stupid
things but you fell flat on your face.
Time to grow up dude.

Bill H
Sorry that you are so sensitive...

Phil C
Phil c said
"I hope those E10 owners feel better, though, after j* king each
other off about how great the E10 is... Progress and
obsolescence... "


Do you realize(maybe you don't care) that you've just alienated
yourself from the entire Olympus SLR forum with that poorly thought
out comment. What were you thinking? You could have easily
expressed your opinion with a little more respect to everyone here
and most importantly showed that you have class and not the
maturity of a 5 year old. Personally, I hate to say, I will bypass
any comment or post of yours from now on and I'm sure most others
who read your comment were just as offended and will do the same.
Best of luck wherever you go!

Bill H
 
Ok, Zen moment here folks. Everyone find your center, deep breaths, let the the tension go. Repeat as needed.

My take on this is that the photograph is born in the mind of the photographer, it is not created by a camera. Having a Hasselblad does not make me a professional photographer, merely a Hasselblad owner. Cameras are tools. Even the best tool fails in untalented hands. Whereas the most gifted can create with the worst of tools.

Yes there are considerations as to what tool is the best in terms of features, price etc. And it's ok to be passionate about works for you. But in the end what really matters is the photograph, the image. The camera is just the vehicle that gets the image from the mind to the physical photograph.

Sometimes it's very easy to get caught up in the tech specs and the features of the technology and forget that really all we want is a good picture. I have a Hassie, I believe that it helps me create good images, my colleague has a Mamiya, he believes the same, we are both right. We both create good images.....and we both enjoy each others photos.

The question of which camera is better is not as simple as money or specs or even what anyone else thinks of it. The question should be, which is better for you. What tool is the best way to realise the images in your head. Frankly if a Kodak box camera brings you the images you dream of, then don't stop using it.
But that's just the way I think.
Keep shooting all of ya! - Oost
 
Thanks oost,

I had been thinking of how to phrase just what you have said. I couldn't agree more. The camera is just the mechanics for expressing our ideas and imagination. The make of camera and its specifications mean nothing if they do not satisfy your personal photographic creativity.

I have purchased very few cameras (but used many) over the past 35 years but each one was the end result of evaluating the best for my needs at the price I was willing to pay.
Just 2c worth.
John W.
Ok, Zen moment here folks. Everyone find your center, deep breaths,
let the the tension go. Repeat as needed.
My take on this is that the photograph is born in the mind of the
photographer, it is not created by a camera. Having a Hasselblad
does not make me a professional photographer, merely a Hasselblad
owner. Cameras are tools. Even the best tool fails in untalented
hands. Whereas the most gifted can create with the worst of tools.
Yes there are considerations as to what tool is the best in terms
of features, price etc. And it's ok to be passionate about works
for you. But in the end what really matters is the photograph, the
image. The camera is just the vehicle that gets the image from the
mind to the physical photograph.
Sometimes it's very easy to get caught up in the tech specs and the
features of the technology and forget that really all we want is a
good picture. I have a Hassie, I believe that it helps me create
good images, my colleague has a Mamiya, he believes the same, we
are both right. We both create good images.....and we both enjoy
each others photos.
The question of which camera is better is not as simple as money or
specs or even what anyone else thinks of it. The question should
be, which is better for you. What tool is the best way to realise
the images in your head. Frankly if a Kodak box camera brings you
the images you dream of, then don't stop using it.
But that's just the way I think.
Keep shooting all of ya! - Oost
 
You're welcome John and many thanks for the "Shadows" assignment, my brain is overwhelmed! Hope some of the stuff in my head can make it to a photo!
All the best - Oost
Thanks oost,
I had been thinking of how to phrase just what you have said. I
couldn't agree more. The camera is just the mechanics for
expressing our ideas and imagination. The make of camera and its
specifications mean nothing if they do not satisfy your personal
photographic creativity.
I have purchased very few cameras (but used many) over the past 35
years but each one was the end result of evaluating the best for my
needs at the price I was willing to pay.
Just 2c worth.
John W.
 
This Dimage is a "toy". Its so small, barely larger than an Elph
and about the same size as a 990 series(see Steves-digicam review
for side by side comparison). Why would anyone looking for a true
size SLR even consider this unit. The only ones that should be
oogling over this camera are those that own a 3040, 990 or such and
think smaller is better. If I saw this unit in a store I might
pause to look at it and envy the MP power, make a sigh, and move on
to look at a "real" camera. I would not be swayed even if the
images were excellent.
This is a incredible statement in my opinion. What is the purpose of ANY camera be film or digital? To capture high quality images I would think. But Bill, you seem to be more concerned about how a camera makes you look than what it's capable of doing. You seem to be saying that even if the Dimage 7 surpasses the E-10 in every category except looks, you still prefer the E-10. Well, to each his own.
 
With a mirror I would not have silent operation and a live LCD.
Also, for long exposures I would have mirror shake.
I don't like silent operation. I like knowing that the camera has
shot the image. A live image preview is nice, but I would rather
have a faster shutter speed and less noise. The E-10 image preview
isn't even very good. I would never use it.
With mirror lock up, there is no mirror shake.
I agree that a mirror lock up would eliminate mirror shake, but many SLRs don't have this feature. With the E-10 you do know when you have shot the image as the viewfinder blacks out (as if there was a mirror) just AFTER the shot is taken. The advantage is that you see your subject at the moment the picture is taken. Canon has even designed special 35mm SLR camera's just for photographers who want this feature. I agree the LCD is not very good, but it comes in handy for overhead shots (above the crowd) and certain other shots where it would be awkward to use the viewfinder.
The beam splitter, if it does contribute to noise, most likely
results in the E-10 having the same amount of noise at ISO80 with
the beam splitter as it would at ISO100 with a mirror. All in all
a very acceptable trade off. However, I don't think that the beam
splitter has any material impact on noise. The reduction in light
reaching the CCD is easily made up for by having a F2/2.4 lens.
Wouldn't you rather have a fast lens and ISO 100 with less noise.
At ISO 100 I would not have less noise than at ISO 80. In anycase I don't think the fraction of an f/stop lost to the beam splitter results in any material increase in noise. What noise there is is due to other reasons (e.g. small CCD, electronics etc). I will gladly accept the benefits of the beam splitter in exchange for the fraction of an f/stop lost.
The Minolta will get slightly more detail and like the E-10 will be
silent and not have mirror shake. However, for people who want to
see the actual subject through the camera lens and want the build
quality, stability and ergonomics of a high quality 35mm camera the
E-10 is still the only camera in its price range to offer these
features.
That is true. The Miinolta looks like a really cheap camcorder. The
controls are horrible. Unless the image quality is better there
would be no reason to buy the Minolta.
As far as noise is concerned the preproduction Minolta pictures
have about the same amount of noise as the E-10. Unless, the
production model is much bettter this will not be a potential
reason to prefer the Minolta over the E-10.
You may be right, the Minolta does have smaller pixels. However the
images were probably shot at higher ISOs than the E10 images you
are looking at.
 
The new Dimage continues Minolta's long tradition of producing ugly, amateurish-looking cameras.

Camera aethetics cannot be ignored, in some ways it's as as important as ergonomics. If every time you look at the thing you want to cringe, the negative psychological factor will be detrimental to your photography.
 
I want to point out that I traded in a Canon EOS-1v for my E-10. Let this sink in for a moment--the most advanced professional 35mm SLR ever built! Do you really think I would have done that for a consumer toy like the Minolta?
 
Bill:

What an intriguing post! If you saw a D7 in a store you might pause to look at it - then move on to a "real" camera - and would not be swayed even if the images were excellent. This is surely the way to buy a paperweight (How does it look and will it hold my papers down?), but hardly the way to evaluate a tool for taking photographs.

It seems to me that cameras, be they film, digital or camera obscura are devices intended for the capturing of images. Pesonally, I wouldn't care if the thing looked like a barn door, so long as the controls were convenient to my hand and it captured excellent images. Yes, I know, PS is always there. But PS can offer only limited creative control - it will never be the substitute for my vision.

I evaluate a camera for its ability to reflect, enhance and capture my vision - to give permanency to the fleeting, to give longevity to the transient. This has not one whit to do with what it weighs or looks like.

Bill says that many (if not most) E-10 users purchased their cameras for the fact that it looks, feels and acts like a true 35mm SLR, and goes on to say that the E-10 "...replaced or supplemented a full 35mm SLR package...". Well, I know that my 35mm experience included at least 6 other lenses , interchangeable backs and prisms and a 2 FPS motor drive. Clearly the E-10, nor any other digital camera will replace my 35mm kit. But that is not why I got into digital photography. If I had wanted a cognate for my 35, I'd have stayed in film. I love digital, even with its shortcomings. I love exchanging my dank darkroom for my laptop w/PS. I love the spontaneity of the deletion process. I love being able to share my images widely with others. But all of this does not mean that I am willing to compromise my image quality to more than the least degree necessary. It is a compromise to be sure, but to me, (and my vision) image quality is the most importtant attribute. Thus I will wait to see the D7 before I make my purchase decision (which MUST be made in early July). Minolta's 35mm optics were always quite good, and all the prelims say the lens is tack sharp with virtually no CA. Further, distortion seems to be minimal. I am concerned somewhat about the noise, for I do enjoy nighttime photography a great deal and often find myself with long exposure times. I do like the availability of the 7x zoom - again, an enhancement to my vision.

Sorry for being so long winded - Bill's post just struck a chord with me. I mean him no malice - I just have a different point of view. Our visions, perhaps, differ.............

lawprofkk
Bill H
Heres hoping Oly get on with an E-10 successor with the D-7
announcement today. I for one will be going to Minolta Dimage 7
unless Oly fight back before July
Reading the prelimanary reviews and the comments in the thread, it
seems that while the Dimage has more pixels the ergonomics and EVF
will make it appeal to a very different user group.

I agree that for most of us increasing the number of pixels is not
the bottom line.

I do wish that Oly would consider improving the firmware to address
some of the issues that have been noted in this forum; i.e. speed
of LCD reviews; noise at high ISO's, compression algorithms etc.,
but at least now I'm not looking for more pixels.

Mike
 
Sorry, but that was the best way to describe what is going on in
this thread...

Phil
Dear Sir:

Any criterion for determining "best," especially in writing, would require even the slightest measure of tact and/or courtesy.

Your response may have just been hasty, so I didn't reply initially, but further defending it is rather uncouth.

I remain, Sir,

Sincerely yours,

F.J.
 
The Minolta is SO ugly I would be ashamed to be seen in public with
it.
Agreed. One needs to have one's tools appeal to the user, giving
confidence and alowing for the best results from the combination.
I've seen some pretty nice images taken with the ugliest digicam of them all - the Nikon 99x.
I do alot shooting in the city, sometimes in dangerous neighborhoods.
The last thing I want is to be carrying around something that looks
expensive or ostentatious.

Chuck
Eeeek! Certainly better leave the Dimage 7 at home then (can't get
more ostentatious than that funky silver case!) For that matter,
leave the S10 at home too, and pickup a Kodak single-use.
The D-7 does look a little funky, maybe even cheap, but not pretentious. If I was robber and I had to choose between the E-10 and the D-7, I'd go for the sleek black beauty.
Be Well. Take Pictures. Enjoy Life! :-)

F.J.
 
back to the Minolta Dimage 7,
  • function is beauty, in my eyes, take a look at some 4x5 cameras, marvel...
  • for now the E-10 is still the king of the hill, and Olympus will come out with one with interchangeable lenses, but camera specific .....wait and see.
so what do I expect from the Dimage 7 for me to junk my E-10 ??
  • fast preview, has new DSP 32bit chip
  • larger viewfinder, still don't like cheap video viewfinder, but this is much better
  • can use a real flash system, Minolta wireless, sunpak,Metz, with Batterypack
  • has a real camera focus system, and continues focus
  • 1GB microdrive support
  • no prism reducing the ISO, better noise ratio
  • 12bit DAC,
  • maybe usable software for RAW mode
  • 28mm, wow, without that screw monster
  • all the way to 200mm ,
  • with the Olympus macro lens I could get down to 1:1 35mm terms,
where the olympus I need to stack 2 Mcons to do that
  • use a macroflash
  • uhh, a B&W mode, ahh
that's enough reason for me.
pitfalls ....
  • what's the Minolta service department like , hmmm
  • still no user upgradable camera os ..., damn,darn, how could I,....
  • it's a Minolta dud, big grin, (stupid Ass, it's not a Hasselblad),
still get laught at from Pro's if it is not a Nikon at least .....
  • stuck pixels all over again, see samples ....
  • still like my 35mm, just not the lab fees,waiting, and hate the scanning .....
  • 3 month later Olympus is going to announce a killer camera .....
hmm , have to work my A$# of to pay for all this camera equipment,
while the buddys, use their hasselblads, how old ? eh,

every year a digital camera cost you a sh*^ load of money, yes you save on film, but boy, we do accumulate tons of garbage pictures too,
if I could only have a few 6x6, I'll be happy to display them ...

thinking of keeping one digital with a 1:1 macro capabiltiy and shooting more 6x6 and useing the digital camera to digitize, and final scan only a few.

.....gotta go charge my batteries, flying to munich germany on this friday ....
click, Robert Schultz
What an intriguing post! If you saw a D7 in a store you might
pause to look at it - then move on to a "real" camera - and would
not be swayed even if the images were excellent. This is surely
the way to buy a paperweight (How does it look and will it hold my
papers down?), but hardly the way to evaluate a tool for taking
photographs.

It seems to me that cameras, be they film, digital or camera
obscura are devices intended for the capturing of images.
Pesonally, I wouldn't care if the thing looked like a barn door, so
long as the controls were convenient to my hand and it captured
excellent images. Yes, I know, PS is always there. But PS can
offer only limited creative control - it will never be the
substitute for my vision.

I evaluate a camera for its ability to reflect, enhance and capture
my vision - to give permanency to the fleeting, to give longevity
to the transient. This has not one whit to do with what it weighs
or looks like.

Bill says that many (if not most) E-10 users purchased their
cameras for the fact that it looks, feels and acts like a true 35mm
SLR, and goes on to say that the E-10 "...replaced or supplemented
a full 35mm SLR package...". Well, I know that my 35mm experience
included at least 6 other lenses , interchangeable backs and prisms
and a 2 FPS motor drive. Clearly the E-10, nor any other digital
camera will replace my 35mm kit. But that is not why I got into
digital photography. If I had wanted a cognate for my 35, I'd have
stayed in film. I love digital, even with its shortcomings. I
love exchanging my dank darkroom for my laptop w/PS. I love the
spontaneity of the deletion process. I love being able to share my
images widely with others. But all of this does not mean that I am
willing to compromise my image quality to more than the least
degree necessary. It is a compromise to be sure, but to me, (and
my vision) image quality is the most importtant attribute. Thus I
will wait to see the D7 before I make my purchase decision (which
MUST be made in early July). Minolta's 35mm optics were always
quite good, and all the prelims say the lens is tack sharp with
virtually no CA. Further, distortion seems to be minimal. I am
concerned somewhat about the noise, for I do enjoy nighttime
photography a great deal and often find myself with long exposure
times. I do like the availability of the 7x zoom - again, an
enhancement to my vision.

Sorry for being so long winded - Bill's post just struck a chord
with me. I mean him no malice - I just have a different point of
view. Our visions, perhaps, differ.............

lawprofkk
Bill H
Heres hoping Oly get on with an E-10 successor with the D-7
announcement today. I for one will be going to Minolta Dimage 7
unless Oly fight back before July
Reading the prelimanary reviews and the comments in the thread, it
seems that while the Dimage has more pixels the ergonomics and EVF
will make it appeal to a very different user group.

I agree that for most of us increasing the number of pixels is not
the bottom line.

I do wish that Oly would consider improving the firmware to address
some of the issues that have been noted in this forum; i.e. speed
of LCD reviews; noise at high ISO's, compression algorithms etc.,
but at least now I'm not looking for more pixels.

Mike
 

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