Does Anybody Back to Film after Digital???

This entire post just shows your ignorance regarding film.
Seems to be a lot of film religious people in this forum and most
make that claim and just as baseless as you did.
Sorry Candidate, your opinions have been proven worthless and not based on fact. The links I've provided and the prints I have prove it. Why don't you take the trolling elsewhere....although I find it entertaining pointing out and providing proof of your lack of understanding.
First let me say that there are some VERY low grain films available
today. Much lower than just a few years ago.
Interesting. What ISO? Any online resolution tests of such a film?
Yes, there have been plently of online tests for Agfa APX25, Kodak Technical Pan, Ilford Pan F 50, Fuji Reala, Fuji NPS 160, Fuji NPH 400, Konica Impressia, etc, etc, etc.
professionals shooting MF or larger with film are shooting
Polaroids before committing to a shot.
So? That just means they pay twice the price to take a shot.
And with the 1Ds mkII digital has surpassed medium format as well.
That's got to make you really mad : )
Actually, if you look at Michael Reichmans testing of the 1DS, you'll see the photo where he says the 1DS offered more detail actually shows the film to have more detail. Once again, your basing this argument on opinion, and not fact. The 16x20 I have from Fuji Reala 100 on an RB67 MF camera, look more detailed than the 1DS. And, the film shows no grain at that size either. Once again, your opinion....not fact.
 
I love digital, but after shooting medium format film, 35mm digital
camera image quality looks akin to the images the brides mother got
with her 35mm disposable! IMHO (Sorry, can't afford a digital back)

The test reports that I've read say it takes about 22-25 meg with a
bayer sensor to equal good 100iso 35mm images. What does it take
to equal medium format?
The test reports which you've read are totally wrong and that's been proven time and again. Medium format is a range of size, not a single size such as 35mm.

Six megapixel pro level digital is a suitable replacement for 35mm fine grain color film or transparency. Eight megapixel pro level sensors equal 35mm fine grain color film. Eleven megapixel digial far exceeds 35mm color film or transparency capability, approaches 645 for most purposes and exceeds some larger format for certain enlargement purposes. Sixteen megapixel digital is roughly equivalent to 4x5 for nearly any conceivable purpose and 22 megapixel backs exceed what you can get with anything less than drum scanned 8x10's. Aesthetic difference may make one or the other more suitable for certain tasks....

Lin
 
This entire post just shows your ignorance regarding film.
Seems to be a lot of film religious people in this forum and most
make that claim and just as baseless as you did.
First let me say that there are some VERY low grain films available
today. Much lower than just a few years ago.
Interesting. What ISO? Any online resolution tests of such a film?
professionals shooting MF or larger with film are shooting
Polaroids before committing to a shot.
So? That just means they pay twice the price to take a shot.
And with the 1Ds mkII digital has surpassed medium format as well.
That's got to make you really mad : )
Make no mistake candidate or any other that thinks that digital is the "Second Coming".

There a quite a few of the world's best photographers who stick to their methods while exploring what is emerging. They see the benefits as being equal in using both mediums for the present and know when to emphasize one or the other. I guarantee that they know far more than you in terms of practical use and end product when it comes to digital. While you are on the web with your micrometer measuring half to death, they are out breaking new limits and sales records, on film and digital.

There is not a soul on Earth who can tell them that they have a better way because quite frankly, there is none for the artist who is constantly upping there own ante.

This is supposed to be a Pro category, LOL.

Too bad it can not be filtered in terms of portfolio content for it it were, the numbers would diminish to less than a dozen.

No truly renown photographer would limit them selves by thinking that digital solves everything now.
It simply does not.

No matter how much post processing you do, Film looks* different*.

Digital may work to all the math you want, but until the best photographers in the world can get out of it the soul that film has, it will not be the cure all you think it is.

This is fact.

Fact is that the benefits of digital do not yet out weigh those of film.
Not yet anyway.

So go ahead and reach out to the world's very best. You will find a whole new world of opinions on something you all seem to think is absolute. I dare you to contact the shooters who are world famous and have the by lines below the photos that leave you speechless.

Or...... just keep your minds closed and consult the middle to low tier "Experts" that seem to make thier living at software design or more along the lines of sites dedicated to measurbating than truly exceptional photography.

You know, most of the ones who hang around here.

I come to this site because I like to keep track of tecnical advances and because I like to shake up the stale thinking around here.

Digital is GREAT! But if you are a pro who is not:

1. Wedding & events photographer
2. Portrait photographer
2. Newspaper photographer

Then you had better wake up and look around, the competition may be up to something you would never guess.
 
If you want to learn about what new technical gear is measuring out to or what lens will best photograph a group of lines and numbers, wade through the photos of flowers, babies, cars, cats and dogs of dpReview.

But if you want to learn how digital is affecting photography in practical terms, spend $80, receive the magazine and go to this link:

http://www.pdnonline.com/

There you will find the practical anwser to your question.
Does Anybody Back to Film after Digital???

I used to click with my Nikon F100, today I scanned all my films
and saw lot of details in these images. Details I can't see in
digital negatives.

I'm not starting a discussion film or digital.

I love digital and all its advantages. I will present this month
500 pics in a International Festival of Electronic Language I did
with digital, etc...

I just want to know, does anybody back to film and forgot digital
because of film quality?

Regards from Brasil!

OficinaDsG [ João Francisco Mariano ]
 
Richard,

How are you?

Nice! You know how o speak portuguese. I live in Brasil, our portuguese is really different.

Thanks for your answer!

I never used a digital back for medium, I know a guy that uses it to capture some old books, he loves it.

The thing is, I'm feeling that some things were missed with digital, I scanned some negatives and saw sharper images.

At this time, I don't know what to do. And in the digital market I'm feeling in a horrible state of consume, our digitals become trash in 2 or 3 years. It is totally different with film, we use old cameras, etc...

I'll back to film just for my art works. It is a very personal opinion, but in film a can feel poetry.

Um grande abraço! E obrigado novamente!

OficinaDsG [ João Francisco Mariano ]
 
... if you just match the reasonable things together

Personally, sensor area and film area should not be much different.

-> 10D (22.7 x 15.1 mm) vs 645 film (60 x 45 mm) -> film area = 7.88x of digital sensor, not good to compare them.

-> 10D vs 35mm -> 2.52 , good (more pixels -> 20D , D2X)

-> 1Ds II vs 645 -> 3x , reasonable

-> 1Ds II vs 6x6 -> 4.17x , ok

-> 1Ds II vs 6x7 -> 4.86x , ok

-> 22mp back (48 x 36 mm) vs 645 -> 1.56x , good to be compared seriously in quality aspects

-> 22mp back vs 6x7 -> 2.43x , good

-> 22mp back vs 4x5 -> 7.47x , not good to compare seriously

-> 10D vs 6x7 -> 12.25x , switch back to film ? I have to agree with this pair !

The number of pixels should be considered as well.
 
Let's just take this since this gave the best result for the 35mm by far.

If this is a true result and I have no reason to believe it isn't then there seems to be much greater potential in 35mm film than people normally get out of them. Just between the links you provided there is very significant quality variation for the same 35mm film. From 15MP down to less than the 10D and these no doubt are the result of very careful effort to prove film at it's best. My albeit limited experience with film tells me that professional photographers gets MUCH less quality from their use of 35mm filmin practice.

If 35mm film still can compete against even the worst digital slrs today would you agree this is not the reality of the matter even if theoretically possible?

Keep luminous landscape in mind when you answer
 
Let's just take this since this gave the best result for the 35mm
by far.
If this is a true result and I have no reason to believe it isn't
then there seems to be much greater potential in 35mm film than
people normally get out of them. Just between the links you
provided there is very significant quality variation for the same
35mm film. From 15MP down to less than the 10D and these no doubt
are the result of very careful effort to prove film at it's best.
My albeit limited experience with film tells me that professional
photographers gets MUCH less quality from their use of 35mm filmin
practice.

If 35mm film still can compete against even the worst digital slrs
today would you agree this is not the reality of the matter even if
theoretically possible?

Keep luminous landscape in mind when you answer
I would say that for the most part, you are completely correct in saying that most people don't get all the quality out of a 35mm piece of film. I've seen horrible scans done by people who say "see, DSLR's are better than film", however, they often compare a shot done on a point and shoot 35mm camera with that of a Canon 10D. Most people are amazed at what can be taken off of a 35mm, 6x7cm or 4x5" neg. I will also agree that for 35mm, I consider the 10D to be a good match. It's not just the rez, it's also the grain.

When considering the Luminous Landscape, I take things with a grain of salt. Michael Reichman prefers ink jet prints. Yet, I find better results with Lightjet out put. For B&W, he prefers inkjet. When I compare the two, I prefer conventional silver gelatin. However, the differences are getting smaller all the time. Digital will win out in the end....but we're not htere yet.

All the best.
 
What do you get from 35mm?
And give me typical figures (or preferable images) if you have them.
Don't be selective to sway the truth. Be honest.
 
This is supposed to be a Pro category, LOL.
Too bad it can not be filtered in terms of portfolio content for it
it were, the numbers would diminish to less than a dozen.

No truly renown photographer would limit them selves by thinking
that digital solves everything now.
It simply does not.
The above depends nearly entirely on what you shoot and for what purpose. Your assumptions are based on your personal experience and circle of photographer friends. There are many of us who find that digital serves our complete professional needs quite well. Let me give you a few examples:

Let's take sports photography as an example. Sports Illustrated had gone 100% digital because of "quality" of product per renowned photographer Peter Read Miller in a recent interview (if you don't know who he is, look up the history of Sports Illustrated). Attend any major sports venue and count the number of people shooting film - hint, you won't need both hands... As SI has gone, so have many other major sports publications and there are more every day who have been enlightened.

Now let's look at Fashion and Glamour photography. Talk to celebrated fashion photographer Melvin Sokolsky and see what he has to say about his own personal preferences (hint - his work has appeared in major high grade fashion publications for over 20 years)...
No matter how much post processing you do, Film looks* different*.
Digital may work to all the math you want, but until the best
photographers in the world can get out of it the soul that film
has, it will not be the cure all you think it is.
"Soul" is a subjective issue. Just as you prefer Galen's film to Stephen Johnson's digital, I prefer the digital look Stephen gets because to me it looks more like the real thing. It's "subjective" not carved in stone and because you and your circle of professional friends like the film look doesn't mean the world agrees with you. Conversely because I and my circle of professional friends like the digital look doesn't mean the world agrees with me. What works is what one can and does "sell." Digital works for me as it works for a large number of professionals. Film works for you and apparently for many of your friends as well. No argument - different strokes!
This is fact.
No, it's "opinion." Facts are quantifiable, opinions about ethereal notions like "soul" are not facts but rather conjecture based on personal taste and opinion.
Fact is that the benefits of digital do not yet out weigh those of
film.
Not yet anyway.
Again - conjecture and based on statistical projections and use models by leading photography conventions (PMA, Photokina, etc.) and the downsizing of major film producers apparently not a correct assessment of what's actually happening in the world of photography.
So go ahead and reach out to the world's very best. You will find a
whole new world of opinions on something you all seem to think is
absolute. I dare you to contact the shooters who are world famous
and have the by lines below the photos that leave you speechless.
But you're making the assumption that your readers have not done this; another incorrect assumption. First you believe that your opinion of who represents the "world's best" is somehow "correct" and that other's here are somehow "beneath" your level of understanding and "vision". Those type assumptions simply invite revelation when you realize that you don't quite know as much as you believe you do....
Or...... just keep your minds closed and consult the middle to low
tier "Experts" that seem to make their living at software design or
more along the lines of sites dedicated to measurbating than truly
exceptional photography.
You know, most of the ones who hang around here.
Insulting those who "hang around here" is not going to win you any debate points.....
I come to this site because I like to keep track of tecnical
advances and because I like to shake up the stale thinking around
here.
You express a pretty inflated opinion about your importance in both the world of photography and about your influence on the "thinking" here. It's a digital forum and the majority here are using and enjoying digital rather than film. Daniel, how do you think I would be received if I frequented a film biased forum and used the handle "DigitalRules - FilmDrools"?? :-)
Digital is GREAT! But if you are a pro who is not:

1. Wedding & events photographer
2. Portrait photographer
2. Newspaper photographer

Then you had better wake up and look around, the competition may be
up to something you would never guess.
And that "competition" would be what - "landscape photographer"?? My friend there are many, many other venues of photography where digital has and is making serious inroads on film's traditional base. Don't get hung up on the concept implicit in your words that somehow "landscape" photographers are "real professionals" while those of us who specialize in other venues of photography are somehow second class and clueless about "real" photography. That condescending attitude doesn't fly well here.

Best regards,

Lin
 
I recently sold my D2h and bought the new F6 with the proceeds. I feel like a real photojournalist again, for some reason. The images just have so much more character to them. $700 from now, I'll even own my own film processor. Just last night I designed a valve that will let me store dark room chemicals indefinitely by vacuuming out all the spoiling oxygen from some self-made ABS containers. Process each roll for about $1.30... scan in the negs... its just like shooting digital, 'cept you can't preview your shots.

I'm glad I did it. The f6 is a better designed camera anyway.

Alex
 
Sixteen megapixel digital is roughly
equivalent to 4x5 for nearly any conceivable purpose
These are just my opinions so....

Yikes. Not hardly. Somebody is really missing the big (LF) picture. The whole purpose of shooting larger format film or bigger MP chips is for bigger enlargements which we all know.

Take the 1ds mkII Thats roughly 5000x3300 or 16,5 mp. Thats roughly equal to a cropped 4x5 scanned at 1000 dpi.

If the 1dsII can actually resolve single pixel detail (which I doubt it can) then each two rows of dots would equal one line pair. In that condition the 1ds mkII can resolve around 70 lp/mm at its best if the AA filter does not soften it too much. Also at 70lp/mm at the sensor you better have some good lenses laying around.

Take a scenario where you want to print at 4 lp/mm. 70/4 = 17.5x enlargement thats if it can attain single pixel resolution, which I doubt.

A 35mm (.94" x 1.42") 1dsmkII file enlarged 17.5x = 16" x 24" which a very respectable size for a 35mm enlargement but thats the limit at that level of detail in print. You cant capture detail below the pixel size. The apparent sharpness may be better than and equivilant scan though.

Take velvia or provia. It can capture 60 lp/mm, but for argument sake lets knock it down to 40 lp/mm at the film plane due to camera shake, soft lens or whatever which incidentally can affect any camera. Mind you I have a couple of LF lenses that resolve up into the low 50's. A few of the newer computer designed LF lenses are even better.

40 lp/mm / 4 at print buys you a 10x enlargement or a tad smaller that 40x50. Although you can enlarge a digital photo to 40x60 and they do look good at a distance, they tend to lose a lot of detail.

I shot the 14N next to a 645, 6x9 camera and a 35mm film and a 6 mp digital camera and this is what my end conclusion was.

All drum scanned.

6-8mp bayer is roughly equal to 35mm slide film.
The 14N carried about 2x the detail of 35mm.
645 and the 14n were close to a wash depending on the conditions.
6x9 MF carried roughly about 2x the detail of the 14n.

Outside that test a 2000 dpi 4x5 (3.8" x 4.8") drum scan gets you roughly 73mp or a whopping big file. At 48 bit its massive. Of yes i forgot. Most digital wont do 16 bit either.

The grain size of Velvia is around 6 microns which is equal to about 1 dot at 4200 dpi, so a 2000 dpi scan of velvia is very clean.

I will say that digital has a clear advantage due to the fact that it is so clean, but Kodak and fuji keep refining their films to make them cleaner scanning. The new 100G film is nice. I expect one day that they will cook up some super thin color emulsion layer film with stacked dye packets optimised for scanning.

For instance....

If they could get the dye packets aligned and down to 2.5 microns you would end up with 4 packets of three colors at each 3000 dpi scan dot which would produce an image that would blow away a lot of people.

With a super sharp lens, like a 80+ lp/mm lens you would be very close to resolving single pixel detail with a 3000 dpi drum scan. At 3000 dpi a 645 film shot would equal 7000 x 4600 or 32mp or double a 1ds mkII.

To me its not about this vs that. This is a pretty beat argument as far as I am concerned because each individual chooses the tool for the job. Persoanlly like a friend told me a while back you should shoot both.

I shoot digital too and have owned quite a few D cameras and to be honest I would not want to wade through and scan 800 negatives, but for one off shots I prefer MF or LF film.

No offense intended.
--
http://www.troyammons.com
http://www.pbase.com/tammons
http://www.troyammons.deviantart.com
 
I recently sold my D2h and bought the new F6 with the proceeds. I
feel like a real photojournalist again, for some reason. The images
just have so much more character to them. $700 from now, I'll even
own my own film processor. Just last night I designed a valve that
will let me store dark room chemicals indefinitely by vacuuming out
all the spoiling oxygen from some self-made ABS containers. Process
each roll for about $1.30... scan in the negs... its just like
shooting digital, 'cept you can't preview your shots.

I'm glad I did it. The f6 is a better designed camera anyway.

Alex
I am not that technical so maybe someone who is might have an answer.
If you shoot say a wedding on 35mm film and then have it scanned, does the
average scan give you more "range" than a good dslr? Alex is scanning his

own negs, are they better.....dynamic range, color, sharpness...then what you would
get from a pro dslr? Thanks for any thoughts, Dana
 
What do you get from 35mm?
And give me typical figures (or preferable images) if you have them.
Don't be selective to sway the truth. Be honest.
I don't shoot that much 35mm at all any more. The 1DS kind of ended that for me. Now the bulk of my work is on the 1DS, the Mamiya RB67, and a Shen Hao 4x5. But in all honesty, I don't have the time to go thru old 35mm negs to do new comparisons. This is old news to all those still using film. The links I provided speak for themselves and agree with the results I've obtained. Well scanned fine grain 35mm exceeds the output from a 6MP sensor....not by a lot, but enough to prove that 35mm is still a viable format. Well scanned 6x7 medium format exceeds the output from all but the highest resolution digital output. Why would I want to spend $20,000 to equal what a $600 camera can produce? Well scanned 4x5 films exceeds the output from ALL digital sensors on the market. The closest I've seen is the betterlight backs....however, they are multi pass single color devices and not suited to anything but fixed product photography.

So there ya have it. Just because there are people who are not talented in obtaining the most from their film, doesn't mean it can't be done. But as I've said numerous times, I've never considered 35mm to be a high quality format....and thus, don't consider 6MP DSLR's to be high quality either. Everyone I've shown 16x20 lightjet prints comparing a 6MP DSLR vs a 6x7 neg, has ALWAYS chosen the MF film version.

I done here!

regards,

Dave Luttmann
 
I recently sold my D2h and bought the new F6 with the proceeds. I
feel like a real photojournalist again, for some reason. The images
just have so much more character to them. $700 from now, I'll even
own my own film processor. Just last night I designed a valve that
will let me store dark room chemicals indefinitely by vacuuming out
all the spoiling oxygen from some self-made ABS containers. Process
each roll for about $1.30... scan in the negs... its just like
shooting digital, 'cept you can't preview your shots.

I'm glad I did it. The f6 is a better designed camera anyway.

Alex
I am not that technical so maybe someone who is might have an answer.
If you shoot say a wedding on 35mm film and then have it scanned,
does the
average scan give you more "range" than a good dslr? Alex is
scanning his
own negs, are they better.....dynamic range, color,
sharpness...then what you would
get from a pro dslr? Thanks for any thoughts, Dana
My opinion is that Kodak E100G slide film is more forgiving in DR than a camera like the S2 or 10d or 300d. I am not sure about the 20D DR.

Negative film has much more DR than almost any digital camera, but the grain is larger than slide film so it does not resolve as much detail and is much harder to get clean scan files from. Impressa is supposed to be super clean negative film but I have not tried it and am not sure about the DR. Reala just does not do it for me either.

The quality of the DR of the scan depends largely on the scanner. If it has a true dmax of 3.6 to 4 they should look great.

Color depth should be better again depending on the film used and scanner dmax and if it is scanned in 16 bit tiff. there are very few scanners that can get down into the darks of velvia and pull out details.

Color film scans and B+W scans are inherently softer than digital. The best pixel edges I have seen from a super clean slide 4000 dpi drum scan were about 4 pixels deep. There are a lot of variables going on there though. The emultion layers are stacked, aperture of the scanner lens and the actual scanner focus too. I am talking about drum scans though. Most other types of scanners are even softer. Film scanners are next best and flatbeds are the softest except for the 30G Creos and such.

The best I have seen from B+W film was 2 to 3 pixels deep, I would assume due to the single emulsion layer and it was tech pan.

All in all I think the best pixel edge sharpness you could acheive with color slide film in perfect conditions drum scanned at 4000 dpi would be about 3-4 deep but that might increase with noise/grain reduction. I think a 1ds has roughly pixel edges (or blurryness) of about 2 pixels.

It depends on which pro dslr and how big you want to enlarge. I would say the top right now is the Mamiya 22mp MF back or ZD or a 4x5 scan back. More reasonable would be a used 1ds. the 14n was problematic and I am not sure about the new kodaks.

Personally i am going to wait on the next couple of Fovean products and keep shooting film for a while. I am hooked on single pixel resolution.

--
http://www.troyammons.com
http://www.pbase.com/tammons
http://www.troyammons.deviantart.com
 
tammons wrote:
snip.......
I shoot digital too and have owned quite a few D cameras and to be
honest I would not want to wade through and scan 800 negatives, but
for one off shots I prefer MF or LF film.

No offense intended.
Hi Tammons,

None taken :-) What you've forgotten here is twofold. First, there's the "theoretical" versus the real world then there's the magic of interpolation.

It's not possible to "capture" more detail than a sensor can resolve, but it's quite easy to "keep" what you have captured and enlarge it to the point of seeing "marker pixels" (improperly resolved detail). This pertains primarily to digital. With film it's virtually impossible to exhaust resolution because you simply run up against the wall of grain long before resolution exhaustion becomes an issue and because of this you never see marker pixels - just can't print large enough to reach that point. So the bottom line is that film printing is grain limited and digital printing, because of the extremely low noise, is resolution limited.

While my 1DS essentially exhausts its resolution for a wide angle hyperfocal landscapes at a little over 16x24 inch print size, for small fields of view and for subjects with less detail I can and do make beautiful prints 8 feet on the long axis. We frequently print life sized images of large tape libraries for electronic trade shows captured with the 1DS at up to 8 feet on the long axis. These are better in every way than I can get with my 4x5 because of grain. The detail is excellent even on close inspection and the clarity and sharpness is outstanding. Steve Eastwood printed beautiful head and shoulders portraits made with his 3.5 megapixel D30 at 75" on the long axis and said he could go larger. Try that with a 645 and you will be sorely disappointed.

The problem with using a math approach to determining the possible is that there are too many variables and it just doesn't obtain. I remember with Dr. Clark was determining by extrapolation of image resolution from a small HP and 2 megapixel digicam that to reach 35mm film quality digital would require 24 megapixel resolution. Finally he actually used a six megapixel dSLR and the story is drastically different now. Others estimated as much as 39 megapixels resolution. Obviously we all know that that argument died when expectations based on numbers and the reality of practical experience clashed.

Single pixel resolution? Yes, the 1DS Mark II will do single pixel resolution. Actually, my Sigma SD10 will do single pixel resolution (10.3 million sensors, 3.5 megapixel file size resolution). Check Phil's review on the SD10....

An excellent interpolation algorithm depends on data integrity. As long as there was "sufficient" resolution to properly define boundaries of fine detail, there is no practical limit to digital enlargement potential. How much resolution is "required" for this depends on the detail in the subject and frame geography. A wide angle hyperfocal landscape has incredible detail requirements. A featureless piece of unicolor plastic filling the frame has nearly no resolution requirements. A 2 megapixel digital capture of such a subject could be enlarged to flawless bill board size. A 35mm film capture of the same subject will still be overwhelmed by grain at somewhat over 16x24 inches enlargement.

There are simply too many variables to make absolute statements about digital/film equivalencies, but my comments were about general photographic equivalencies. There are always exceptions on either side.

Best regards,

Lin
 
I think we have agreed to disagree and I do follow your logic. I too have enlarged digital very big, I have owned the 14n (close in rez to the 1ds)and currently own the SD9 so we have a lot in common as far as cameras, but I still feel like I can get more pleasing detail in print out of LF than digital at this stage.

Of course if I had a Mamiya ZD back on a RZ67 II pro that attitude probably would change.
I shoot digital too and have owned quite a few D cameras and to be
honest I would not want to wade through and scan 800 negatives, but
for one off shots I prefer MF or LF film.

No offense intended.
Hi Tammons,

None taken :-) What you've forgotten here is twofold. First,
there's the "theoretical" versus the real world then there's the
magic of interpolation.

It's not possible to "capture" more detail than a sensor can
resolve, but it's quite easy to "keep" what you have captured and
enlarge it to the point of seeing "marker pixels" (improperly
resolved detail). This pertains primarily to digital. With film
it's virtually impossible to exhaust resolution because you simply
run up against the wall of grain long before resolution exhaustion
becomes an issue and because of this you never see marker pixels -
just can't print large enough to reach that point. So the bottom
line is that film printing is grain limited and digital printing,
because of the extremely low noise, is resolution limited.

While my 1DS essentially exhausts its resolution for a wide angle
hyperfocal landscapes at a little over 16x24 inch print size, for
small fields of view and for subjects with less detail I can and do
make beautiful prints 8 feet on the long axis. We frequently print
life sized images of large tape libraries for electronic trade
shows captured with the 1DS at up to 8 feet on the long axis. These
are better in every way than I can get with my 4x5 because of
grain. The detail is excellent even on close inspection and the
clarity and sharpness is outstanding. Steve Eastwood printed
beautiful head and shoulders portraits made with his 3.5 megapixel
D30 at 75" on the long axis and said he could go larger. Try that
with a 645 and you will be sorely disappointed.

The problem with using a math approach to determining the possible
is that there are too many variables and it just doesn't obtain. I
remember with Dr. Clark was determining by extrapolation of image
resolution from a small HP and 2 megapixel digicam that to reach
35mm film quality digital would require 24 megapixel resolution.
Finally he actually used a six megapixel dSLR and the story is
drastically different now. Others estimated as much as 39
megapixels resolution. Obviously we all know that that argument
died when expectations based on numbers and the reality of
practical experience clashed.

Single pixel resolution? Yes, the 1DS Mark II will do single pixel
resolution. Actually, my Sigma SD10 will do single pixel resolution
(10.3 million sensors, 3.5 megapixel file size resolution). Check
Phil's review on the SD10....

An excellent interpolation algorithm depends on data integrity. As
long as there was "sufficient" resolution to properly define
boundaries of fine detail, there is no practical limit to digital
enlargement potential. How much resolution is "required" for this
depends on the detail in the subject and frame geography. A wide
angle hyperfocal landscape has incredible detail requirements. A
featureless piece of unicolor plastic filling the frame has nearly
no resolution requirements. A 2 megapixel digital capture of such a
subject could be enlarged to flawless bill board size. A 35mm film
capture of the same subject will still be overwhelmed by grain at
somewhat over 16x24 inches enlargement.

There are simply too many variables to make absolute statements
about digital/film equivalencies, but my comments were about
general photographic equivalencies. There are always exceptions on
either side.

Best regards,

Lin
--
http://www.troyammons.com
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That might be true down the road but right now is what matters and
right now, film is still in wide use by top pros.
The top pros in certain areas. Certainly not the top pros in sports
photography or photojournalism.
National Geographic shooters are 90% film.
National Geographic is one niche magazine which uses mostly nature and landscape photography with some documentary photography thrown in. It's not the photojournalism trade. It certainly isn't the sports photography market or the daily newspaper market or any of a number of markets where the top pros use digital, often exclusively.
Sorry but I do this for a living and know the market.
So do I (do photography for a living and know my market). The markets I serve have all gone to digital and the people I compete with are all digital. If I weren't digital, I would be at a disadvantage. It doesn't surprise me at all that your market is still largely film-based, but your inability to admit there are other markets and that they are better served by digital does surprise me.

You seem to think (based on what you say here) that people pay you a lot of money for your images because you use film. I think they are paying that amount of money because of your artistic vision and that if you learned digital the way you've already learned film, you'd continue to produce images that clients would pay $20,000 for. I'm also surprised that you would insist that you are incapable of doing so.

A camera is just a tool so a great photographer should have no trouble mastering a new tool and learning how to exploit it's strengths. Why would you continually make posts that make you look like less than a great photographer and then act like the fact that you haven't mastered this new tool is a virtue is beyond me. I think you'd be better off to think of digital as just a new type of film. Every film has it's own characteristics and you can get good pictures that exploit those characteristics from every one of them. This includes digital.
 
Do all the math you want. I have 24X30's hanging from 35mm that look great (yes, some grain shows). I have 30X40"s from medium format that are tack sharp. The largest I would ever sell from my S2 was 16X20. I could print larger, but they started looking like water colors.

Some items that mess up many folks math:
  • scanning the negatives, it is sharper if you skip this step and just print it.
  • Many use 400 iso film to compare with! thats not fair.
 

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