Does Anybody Back to Film after Digital???

No it will be dead when nobody still makes the stuff!

5-10 years tops.
I'd say it's going to take longer as certain specialty films will continue to have a market until digital imaging improves to the point that it can compete with them. But I agree with the basic sentiment. At some point it companies won't make enough money selling film so they'll stop.

As for posting great pictures made on film, that doesn't prove those same images couldn't be made with digital.

Marie
 
There may always be some exceptions, but it's about business and technology works as if its in ( sorta ) multiples. Traditional film manufactures have embraced digital and its periphials or have gone out of business. They see the writing on the wall. As I said earlier, one need not like it, but you need to accept it. Photography is going GUNG HO ALL OUT DIGITAL. The technology in 5 years will blow away the already awesome digital technology we have today.
No it will be dead when nobody still makes the stuff!

5-10 years tops.
I'd say it's going to take longer as certain specialty films will
continue to have a market until digital imaging improves to the
point that it can compete with them. But I agree with the basic
sentiment. At some point it companies won't make enough money
selling film so they'll stop.

As for posting great pictures made on film, that doesn't prove
those same images couldn't be made with digital.

Marie
--
visit my photo gallary of images from my 10D

http://phileas.fotopic.net/c258181.html
 
They see the writing on the wall. As I said
earlier, one need not like it, but you need to accept it.
Photography is going GUNG HO ALL OUT DIGITAL. The technology in
5 years will blow away the already awesome digital technology we
have today.
That might be true down the road but right now is what matters and right now, film is still in wide use by top pros.

You have to make a single piece of film make you over $20,000 to understand this.

It's O.K. if you don't.

Just look at my links to see how I shoot and how I make my living.

Very, very few "Pros" out there actually make a living off of such a great lifestyle.

Both film and digital together have increased my success by a big margin, but not one without the other.

This "Pro Digital Talk"

If you are a person who makes 100% of their living off of shooting high level photographs, not talking about weddings, portraits and other mainstream, then you might understand.

Good night, I have a client flying in tomorrow, off to bed.
 
I hate to rain on your parade fellow Colorad'n but I make HUGE
sales off of film with big agencies..
Well good for you. I used to make huge sales off film too, but
since 1995 I've make a VERY good living off primarily digital.
I am not semi-pro and niether are my Colorado friends Chris Ranier,
John Feilder, Ace Kvale to name a few.
Did someone say you were (semi-pro)? What has this to do with this
being a digital forum?
Many on here are...most are not even that.
Sorry Dan, perhaps you are not quite as informed as you believe you are.
We shoot film and digital ( Except John ) because our clients
demand what they are used to, the very best.
My clients demand the very best also and they get it with digital...
Lots of us shoot film and digital - but that's not the point is it?
It kind of is as I am trying to make it pretty clear that top
agencies, magazines and other art buyers still preffer film.
Example: Patagonia.
Maybe the magazines you deal with still prefer film, but there are many, many who use accept digital and are very happy with the results. Whether an AD prefers film or digital is totally irrelevant to capabilities and limitations and speaks primarily to bias and resistance to change. Apparently you haven't seen top digital work in landscapes, etc., or didn't recognize that it was digital when you did see it. Next time you're in California admiring Galen's beautiful landscapes, stop by Steve Johnson's and look at some superior digital landscapes and then tell me digital isn't up to the task :-)
Digital is great but film has some other limitations that make it
great to able to see beyond the human perception of light.
Well, the above is lost on me - I haven't a clue what you're saying...
Film responds different...
Show me your top ten slide images and I will be to see if you have
touched this realm.
Show me your top ten digital images and I'll do likewise for you....
If you are truly brilliant at shooting slide film, then you will
know what I mean. If not, then you simply won't know.
What does "brilliant" at shooting slide film mean?
David Alan Harvey
John Fielder
Ace Kvale
Frans Lanting
Anne Griffiths-Belt
Bill Hatcher
Jimmy Chin
Gordon Wiltsie
Peter Essick
Daniel Bayer..:-)
Well I'm glad you're proud of your transparency work Daniel, but it still has nothing to do with the issues of promoting film on a digital forum which is what my response was about. You're trying to start a "film versus digital" quality argument and that has been discussed here for many years before you ever visited this forum.
Take a close look at the work above and tell me if have
consistently seen this type of image from digital.
You don't see "this type of image" consistently from film or transparency either but that doesn't mean that it can't or isn't being done because it can and is.
Hint: Some of the links are close by.
I guess it also depends on who your clients are and how big the
checks are.
My clients are world wide and the checks are big enough to buy me
all the equipment I need to continue to make a very comfortable
living.
Digital does not respond like this top seller yet Lin:
Like "what" top seller??
The one on the link below
http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=1055515

This may be a digital forum but let's not go spreading around
rehtoric that is Simply not true.
What "rehtoric" might this be? You're tallking in riddles and vague
generalities, be specific and maybe we can discuss it...
That digital has film beat in pro use.
I hope you are not quoting me because I didn't comment on that issue, but as long as you brought it up film is rapidly being replaced in pro use by digital. When's the last time you attended PMA or Photokina? Take a look at their statistics and then show me which is being sold more to professionals. Have a look at the trends by film makers and their forecasts - you have an education coming. The world of photography is much larger than your personal experience and your bias is showing here.

You're not educating me about film, Daniel. I was shooting film professionally in 1967 when you were just the apple of you're mom's eye and learning about diapers. I saw the handwriting on the wall and the future is digital whether you like it or not. Apparently you don't have sufficient experience with professional level digial to fully appreciate it, but in time you will. Obviously there is still a place for film and there are certain aesthetics which film brings to the table that are different than digital. Conversely, digital brings it's own set of values and capabilities which film lacks. One may "prefer" to work in either media, but there are plenty of top paid professionals (yes, many of them make more than you do Daniel) working exclusively in digital today.

Lin
 
Good for you, you can stop patting yourself on your back...

The point is the DIRECTION the market is going. You challenged me earlier stating film has not lost the horse race. I've shown you it has. It's only going to fall further behind.

Now you may very well get some good cash for shooting film I don't care and I never argued that with you. This being said one may and probably does get similar compensation shooting high quality digital. Since neither you nor I can 100% support or deny such lets just say your point was moot.

Look I shot film as a pro for over 15 years. made some good coin at it and enjoyed it. I have many images on file from my film days. I was slow to embrace digital, but seeing what it offers and will continue to grow VASTLY as time passes in offering, well its aspects that may be negative are more than made up by its abilties and this is only circa 2004. Imagine in 2006-2008-2010?
earlier, one need not like it, but you need to accept it.
Photography is going GUNG HO ALL OUT DIGITAL. The technology in
5 years will blow away the already awesome digital technology we
have today.
That might be true down the road but right now is what matters and
right now, film is still in wide use by top pros.

You have to make a single piece of film make you over $20,000 to
understand this.

It's O.K. if you don't.

Just look at my links to see how I shoot and how I make my living.
Very, very few "Pros" out there actually make a living off of such
a great lifestyle.

Both film and digital together have increased my success by a big
margin, but not one without the other.

This "Pro Digital Talk"

If you are a person who makes 100% of their living off of shooting
high level photographs, not talking about weddings, portraits and
other mainstream, then you might understand.

Good night, I have a client flying in tomorrow, off to bed.
--
visit my photo gallary of images from my 10D

http://phileas.fotopic.net/c258181.html
 
I hate to rain on your parade fellow Colorad'n but I make HUGE
sales off of film with big agencies..
Well good for you. I used to make huge sales off film too, but
since 1995 I've make a VERY good living off primarily digital.
I am not semi-pro and niether are my Colorado friends Chris Ranier,
John Feilder, Ace Kvale to name a few.
Did someone say you were (semi-pro)? What has this to do with this
being a digital forum?
Many on here are...most are not even that.
Sorry Dan, perhaps you are not quite as informed as you believe you
are.
We shoot film and digital ( Except John ) because our clients
demand what they are used to, the very best.
My clients demand the very best also and they get it with digital...
Lots of us shoot film and digital - but that's not the point is it?
It kind of is as I am trying to make it pretty clear that top
agencies, magazines and other art buyers still preffer film.
Example: Patagonia.
Next time you're in California
admiring Galen's beautiful landscapes, stop by Steve Johnson's and
look at some superior digital landscapes and then tell me digital
isn't up to the task :-)
Been there, knew Galen.

Good stuff, different look, no where near the reality of Galen's. Not even close.
Digital is great but film has some other limitations that make it
great to able to see beyond the human perception of light.
Well, the above is lost on me - I haven't a clue what you're saying...
Film responds different...
Show me your top ten slide images and I will be to see if you have
touched this realm.
Show me your top ten digital images and I'll do likewise for you....
I think that might be fun. You are a fellow colorad'n, what the heck!
If you are truly brilliant at shooting slide film, then you will
know what I mean. If not, then you simply won't know.
What does "brilliant" at shooting slide film mean?
David Alan Harvey
John Fielder
Ace Kvale
Frans Lanting
Anne Griffiths-Belt
Bill Hatcher
Jimmy Chin
Gordon Wiltsie
Peter Essick
Daniel Bayer..:-)
Well I'm glad you're proud of your transparency work Daniel, but it
still has nothing to do with the issues of promoting film on a
digital forum which is what my response was about.
I promote both and try to dispel the hype.
You're trying to
start a "film versus digital" quality argument and that has been
discussed here for many years before you ever visited this forum.
Rightfully so.
Take a close look at the work above and tell me if have
consistently seen this type of image from digital.
You don't see "this type of image" consistently from film
I do
or
transparency either but that doesn't mean that it can't or isn't
being done because it can and is.
Hint: Some of the links are close by.
I guess it also depends on who your clients are and how big the
checks are.
My clients are world wide and the checks are big enough to buy me
all the equipment I need to continue to make a very comfortable
living.
Digital does not respond like this top seller yet Lin:
Like "what" top seller??
The one on the link below
http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=1055515

This may be a digital forum but let's not go spreading around
rehtoric that is Simply not true.
What "rehtoric" might this be? You're tallking in riddles and vague
generalities, be specific and maybe we can discuss it...
That digital has film beat in pro use.
I hope you are not quoting me because I didn't comment on that
issue, but as long as you brought it up film is rapidly being
replaced in pro use
by digital. When's the last time you attended
PMA or Photokina?
I would rather be out shooting or at a marketing type convention versus a gear fest.
But I do not take timeTake a look at their statistics and then show me
which is being sold more to professionals. Have a look at the
trends by film makers and their forecasts - you have an education
coming. The world of photography is much larger than your personal
experience and your bias is showing here.
I teach a digital workshop in Aspen. The famous David C. Hiser would only let me do that if I knew what the heck is going on.
You're not educating me about film, Daniel. I was shooting film
professionally in 1967 when you were just the apple of you're mom's
eye and learning about diapers.
Yep! Over 27 years of my 37 year old life knowing what my only method of living should be.
I saw the handwriting on the wall
and the future is digital whether you like it or not. Apparently
you don't have sufficient experience with professional level digial
to fully appreciate it, but in time you will. Obviously there is
still a place for film and there are certain aesthetics which film
brings to the table that are different than digital. Conversely,
digital brings it's own set of values and capabilities which film
lacks. One may "prefer" to work in either media, but there are
plenty of top paid professionals (yes, many of them make more than
you do Daniel) working exclusively in digital today.

Lin
It's all about what you prefer. No one has any basis for saying that film is dead, not that you did.
But it seems that is what is implied here and I think that is just plain crazy.

I shoot film and digital equally. I get great results from both and know when to use the right medium.

I would not be without either at this point.
 
Next time you're in California
admiring Galen's beautiful landscapes, stop by Steve Johnson's and
look at some superior digital landscapes and then tell me digital
isn't up to the task :-)
Been there, knew Galen.
Good stuff, different look, no where near the reality of Galen's.
Not even close.
You see, that's where we enter the world of "opinion." Terms like "reality" when applied to photos only have meaning in the subjective realm. Personally, though I also knew Galen and Barbara and love the work, prefer Steve's landscapes for the identical reason you prefer Galen's.
Show me your top ten slide images and I will be to see if you have
touched this realm.
Show me your top ten digital images and I'll do likewise for you....
I think that might be fun. You are a fellow colorad'n, what the heck!
We'll have to do that some day!
response was about.
I promote both and try to dispel the hype.
Likewise - but when in Rome......
You're trying to
start a "film versus digital" quality argument and that has been
discussed here for many years before you ever visited this forum.
Rightfully so.
Take a close look at the work above and tell me if have
consistently seen this type of image from digital.
You don't see "this type of image" consistently from film
I do
Only because you're looking at top film work - if you were looking at top digital work you would also see the same...
I hope you are not quoting me because I didn't comment on that
issue, but as long as you brought it up film is rapidly being
replaced in pro use
by digital. When's the last time you attended
PMA or Photokina?
I would rather be out shooting or at a marketing type convention
versus a gear fest.
I teach a digital workshop in Aspen. The famous David C. Hiser
would only let me do that if I knew what the heck is going on.
You're not educating me about film, Daniel. I was shooting film
professionally in 1967 when you were just the apple of you're mom's
eye and learning about diapers.
Yep! Over 27 years of my 37 year old life knowing what my only
method of living should be.
That's good, we need more dedicated photographers who can truly enjoy what they do and make a good living while doing it...
It's all about what you prefer. No one has any basis for saying
that film is dead, not that you did.
But it seems that is what is implied here and I think that is just
plain crazy.

I shoot film and digital equally. I get great results from both and
know when to use the right medium.

I would not be without either at this point.
 
In my case, I have a "compact" digital camera, and a film SLR.. The compact camera (Canon Powershot G3) was quite expensive for my amateur taste on photography.. And I only got 4 MP.. My film SLR, on the tther hand is 10 years old, and the resolution I get out of SOME cheap-slide shots is impressively higher..

With the digital, I can shoot a lot without worrying with film processing cost. With the film camera, I get more selective to what I shoot.

In terms of price, my G3 costed me the equivalent of 6000 slide shots. Given the speed the market is outputting new digital equipment, I cant take 6000 shots per year, to sustain a new camera each year..

That is why i'll wait a bit more, before I go into digital. I can't take 6000 shots er year, because I currently don't have the time. And don't have the job to earn enough to think about it. I'm still studying..

So for some of us, digital may not be the best choise we have..
Does Anybody Back to Film after Digital???
ActuallyI think quite a few people are going back to film. A Kodak
rep told me that their film sales for pro film were starting to
increase. There are situations where you have to have the exposure
latitude that film has (weddings)
OficinaDsG [ João Francisco Mariano ]
--
Fil.
 
But then you are also the person who said, "Digital left 35mm film
in the dust with the 3MP Canon EOS D30."
So I think we all know where you're coming from.
You have a clear impression but don't understand it.
And clearly you don't have a good grip on technology! (nor analogies)
Rather than bite on your distraction from the point, perhaps you could use your superior technological insight and begin a definition of this ellusive 3D quality?

I would also be most interested in a technological explanation that would allow this particular photon carried quality to be supported by celluloid and not a photovoltaic array, both inherently planar technologies.
 
It's true that there is a valid economy argument on the equipment if film quality is good enough but what price can you put on the time saved not developing film and the freedom of just clicking away and experimenting without the fear of cost and time.

And indeed you put a price on it by buying a digicam.
Although one should ignore the novelty appeal in the equation : )

Film just stinks in comparison so it's human nature that you just have to have digital : )

It's like the terminator vs a wooden automaton.

'I see everything' vs 'I don't know, I'll know by tomorrow when I get the film developed, maybe' : )

It's like in that movie: 'I see dead film' : )
 
This entire post just shows your ignorance regarding film. First let me say that there are some VERY low grain films available today. Much lower than just a few years ago. So low in fact that it's not really an issue except in uncontrolled situations. Also, professionals shooting MF or larger with film are shooting Polaroids before committing to a shot. Check out some of the movies in the "Behind the Scenes" section of one of my favorite photographer's website. He's still shooting film too.
http://www.giulianobekor.com

He may shoot digital when tethered in a studio. But he's not using a D30. Probably more like a P25.
It's true that there is a valid economy argument on the equipment
if film quality is good enough but what price can you put on the
time saved not developing film and the freedom of just clicking
away and experimenting without the fear of cost and time.

And indeed you put a price on it by buying a digicam.
Although one should ignore the novelty appeal in the equation : )
Film just stinks in comparison so it's human nature that you just
have to have digital : )

It's like the terminator vs a wooden automaton.
'I see everything' vs 'I don't know, I'll know by tomorrow when I
get the film developed, maybe' : )

It's like in that movie: 'I see dead film' : )
--
Kev

http://www.whiteorangedesign.com/photo
 
But then you are also the person who said, "Digital left 35mm film
in the dust with the 3MP Canon EOS D30."
So I think we all know where you're coming from.
You have a clear impression but don't understand it.
And clearly you don't have a good grip on technology! (nor analogies)
Rather than bite on your distraction from the point, perhaps you
could use your superior technological insight and begin a
definition of this ellusive 3D quality?
I would also be most interested in a technological explanation that
would allow this particular photon carried quality to be supported
by celluloid and not a photovoltaic array, both inherently planar
technologies.
Candidate,

As Ed said,

Your statement that the old D30 (I own one by the way....do you?) surpassed 35mm capture sums up your knowledge of what film is capable of. What you're saying is that all those working pros, printing big enlargements from 35mm, 6x7 and 4x5 LF film simply don't know what they are talking about....and you do. We already have enough sites on the web comparing drum scans of 35mm vs 6MP capture, and showing that the 35mm still provides more detail, albeit barely. So yes, a scanner can do more than your DSLR. Your comparisons have to be in the same realm for them to prove your argument. And as I said in other post (the one you wouldn't respond to) 35mm has never been considered a high quality format. People who want that have always used MF & LF film sizes. It's funny then, when you really think about it, that DSLR's have always focussed on surpassing 35mm quality (which they did with the EOS 1DS....not before) which at the end of the day is like a new audio format trying to surpass the quality of 8 track tapes.....when we already have SACD.

Enjoy your DSLR Candidate. It truly is a wonderful tool. I use a couple for most of my wedding and portrait work. However, when it comes to B&W and color enlargements of 16x20 and beyond....out comes the RB67 and the Shen Hao 4x5.....and will for the foreseeable future.

Regards,

Dave Luttmann
 
I have a Canon EOS 1 for sale if there is anyone that would like to go back to film.

There is no right or wrong here, it just depends on the type of work you do. I've done the whole gamut of photography over the last 40+ years from toting a view camera to shooting and printing totally digital. We all evolve with our art in different ways, I got into digital because I wanted to catalog the "Polaroid Art Prints" I was producing. I started out making minor color adjustments to my images and that evolved to what I do today http://www.wearwear.com .

Film will have it's place for many years to come and those who stick with it will be considered the "Old Masters". There is still a great art to creating a quality print from film. Ten years ago I wouldn't shoot a picture if the lighting wasn't perfect, it didn't matter how good the composition was.

For those of us that love the digital world and continue to grow with it, we will be considered the "New Masters". My new slogan is never pass us a great composition.

Paul Wear
http://www.wearwear.com/
 
I love digital, but after shooting medium format film, 35mm digital camera image quality looks akin to the images the brides mother got with her 35mm disposable! IMHO (Sorry, can't afford a digital back)

The test reports that I've read say it takes about 22-25 meg with a bayer sensor to equal good 100iso 35mm images. What does it take to equal medium format?

The other downer is the time needed to post process. I don't always have time, my lab does.

I shoot both, when image quality is paramount, it's film all the way! When manipulation is wanted, it's digital all the way!
 
I'll grant you that film and scanning can produce more detail than digital, but frankly, everything else about digitial is so much easier and faster that I'm not going back.

A photo isn't just the image, it's a combination of the image and the effort it took to get the image. Going digital, I'm shooting a lot more shots than I did with film. Paying a lot less, waiting a lot less. While film may have a slight edge in quality, I find that digital creates a lot more opportunities.
 
Your statement that the old D30 (I own one by the way....do you?)
surpassed 35mm capture sums up your knowledge of what film is
capable of. What you're saying is that all those working pros,
printing big enlargements from 35mm, 6x7 and 4x5 LF film simply
don't know what they are talking about....and you do.
That happens to be true but that doesn't follow from my statement about the D30.
We already
have enough sites on the web comparing drum scans of 35mm vs 6MP
capture, and showing that the 35mm still provides more detail,
albeit barely.
haven't seen those. Please link
Only seen luminous landscape's slaying by D30.
 
This entire post just shows your ignorance regarding film.
Seems to be a lot of film religious people in this forum and most make that claim and just as baseless as you did.
First let me say that there are some VERY low grain films available
today. Much lower than just a few years ago.
Interesting. What ISO? Any online resolution tests of such a film?
professionals shooting MF or larger with film are shooting
Polaroids before committing to a shot.
So? That just means they pay twice the price to take a shot.
And with the 1Ds mkII digital has surpassed medium format as well.
That's got to make you really mad : )
 
Your statement that the old D30 (I own one by the way....do you?)
surpassed 35mm capture sums up your knowledge of what film is
capable of. What you're saying is that all those working pros,
printing big enlargements from 35mm, 6x7 and 4x5 LF film simply
don't know what they are talking about....and you do.
That happens to be true but that doesn't follow from my statement
about the D30.
We already
have enough sites on the web comparing drum scans of 35mm vs 6MP
capture, and showing that the 35mm still provides more detail,
albeit barely.
haven't seen those. Please link
Only seen luminous landscape's slaying by D30.
First off, the D30 didn't slay 35mm. If you actually read his reviews, you'll see in his review of the D60, he says that it (the D60) now matches 35mm. How the D60 match 35mm, and the D30 be better than 35mm. Seems Michael Recihman changed his mind....something most of us film users already knew.

Now that we have clearified that, your comment that the D30 slays film does not hold water under testing. If that doesn't, it brings into question your understanding of the capabilities of film in general. As to links, here are some comparing different formats. Maybe you could focus in on the ones comparing 6MP capture to film. As an aside, if you haven't seen these before by doing a simple search in google, or if you have done the testing yourself by printing enlargements (I have) then really, you have little to offer based on fact, and much to say based on opinion....and I believe that opinions formed without fact (testing) are essentially worthless, and as such are nothing more than trolling. Nuff said, here's some links.

http://www.oprit.rug.nl/otten/Comparison.html

http://www.sphoto.com/techinfo/Cbflowers.htm

http://www.sphoto.com/techinfo/santaysablefarm.htm

I'll leave any further searches to you. I found these in about 30 seconds. As well, as I said, most fine art photographers never considered 35mm to be high quality. We use MF and LF. And I'll stand my RB67 negs, color or B&W, up to a 6MP DSLR any day. Got the prints to prove it, and eyes to see it.

Enjoy!

Dave
 

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