Forced to Buy Film SLR

There is a point to learning on b/w film. If you want to be a professional photographer, you cannot rely on chimping and histograms to get you through when you have to get the shot. A professional has a very good idea of light temperature, f stop and required shutter speed before they put the camera up to their eye. Not everybody and everything will wait around until you've tested the shot a few times. The time you spend post-processing to fix your poor images can then be spent out taking more photos to earn you money. Shooting b/w film gives you an understanding of what you need to do to get the shot you want first time, rather than rely on feedback from your equipment. Learning b/w first helps to not develop bad amateur habits. Of course, you could always put some black tape over the LCD and only use manual as an alternative learning method.

I could certainly understand getting a full manual camera that forced you to understand metering, etc. and to take time to "choose" a shot, as well as the historical aspects of photography. But I couldn't see investing money in a new film SLR. After thought about this topic from earlier, I can see the merits of the "study" of film techniques to better appreciate the newer technologies...

The f-stops here said:

The B/W photo class I took 15 years ago got me hooked and just
plain fun. I would recommed taking such a class to anyone who
jumped right into digital.

There is an allure to the old school B/W techniques...

• dodging/burning
• pushing film up a stop or two
• orange filters, red filters, etc...

Interesting that all the above are can be done in Photoshop. Don't
think of the film class so much as a prereq, think of it more of a
history class

And about obtaining a film SLR, definitely get a used one. You
might even consider getting a fully manual. An FM2n, while it is
an awsome photographic tool, will allow you to fully appreciate the
D70.

Brivers said:

Jim Carr said:

Jonathan F/2 said:

By the time you graduate in photography, you will realize that a
large percentage of the photography industry has transferred to
digital. Most of all images in print magazines are digital. Yet
these teachers have no clue of the real market. Instead they are
making students unprepared for the realities of the industry.

An understanding of the digital tools are sorely lacking from the
photographers coming into the market.

kjandb said:

I'm attending Boise State University and have decided to take the
intro to creative photography course. Unfortunately, the class
requires a film SLR and I do not have one. I would like to get one
to compliment the D70 well...one that has interchangeable lenses
and equipment. I don't want to spend too much money because I don't
see myself using film very often, but I want to buy one that can be
used as a backup for weddings. $500 max and preferably around $300.
Any suggestions? Is the N80 what I'm looking for?

Click to expand...

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If you are on a budget, you can get N65, N75 or even N50.

We all know we'll be able to open them, as well as our great grandchildren. No, it may not be in it's .jpg format of today, however, it will easily be converted as the number of .jpgs out there today will only grow exponentially until a new and better standard is developed. Until then, continue archiving to DVD and rotate stock periodically as well as keeping separate hard drive(s) for quick access. Storage is cheap cheap....

Joe E Baker said:

I bought a D70 because I enjoy the speed, convenience and instant
gratification of digital -- not to mention the savings on film and
film processing.

However...I kept my F5 for really "important" photos.

Digital still has a long way to go to catch up with the resolution
contained within the space in a 35mm negative. (Perhaps when there
are 50 megapixel cameras this will be less of an issue.) Also, It's
hard to argue with the durability of film negatives. Who knows if
50 years from now you'll be able to read those CDs or open those
old JPEGs. But 50 years from now, you will still be able to get a
great image from that neg.

Joe

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Joe E Baker said:

Also, It's
hard to argue with the durability of film negatives. Who knows if
50 years from now you'll be able to read those CDs or open those
old JPEGs. But 50 years from now, you will still be able to get a
great image from that neg.

Click to expand...

Not that hard to argue. It all depends on how you take care of the media. My 40 year old Tri-X negatives and (my father's) 57 year old Kodachrome slides look good except for scratches (hard to scratch a digital image) while most commercial slides bought in the 60-70's are shot and the Ektachromes from the 50's and 60's have color shifted and must be digitized and processed to restore.

OTOH, a digital image is forever as long as you maintain it on readable media. Just transfer the the latest technology every five years. I wouldn't trust a 50 year old CD, but if those 1947 Kodachromes were instead digital images, saved on punch cards, converted to paper tape in the 1970's, then 8" floppies, then 5.25" floppies, then 3.5" floppies then CDs, and now DVDs, they would be perfect!

(Now I just have to hope that someone 50 years from now will care!)

I love to debate the "longevity" issue with optical media, especially when the cost of a single sided DVD is now below .30 USA. It takes all of about 15 minutes to burn a completely new disk, so the idea of 3 or more backup solutions failing at one time are against the odds. I do rotate stock out just to be safe, but the costs are so insignificant, I burn multiple copies for storage with various family members as well as for safedeposit box keeping.

talmy said:

Joe E Baker said:

Also, It's
hard to argue with the durability of film negatives. Who knows if
50 years from now you'll be able to read those CDs or open those
old JPEGs. But 50 years from now, you will still be able to get a
great image from that neg.

Click to expand...

Not that hard to argue. It all depends on how you take care of the
media. My 40 year old Tri-X negatives and (my father's) 57 year old
Kodachrome slides look good except for scratches (hard to scratch a
digital image) while most commercial slides bought in the 60-70's
are shot and the Ektachromes from the 50's and 60's have color
shifted and must be digitized and processed to restore.

OTOH, a digital image is forever as long as you maintain it on
readable media. Just transfer the the latest technology every five
years. I wouldn't trust a 50 year old CD, but if those 1947
Kodachromes were instead digital images, saved on punch cards,
converted to paper tape in the 1970's, then 8" floppies, then 5.25"
floppies, then 3.5" floppies then CDs, and now DVDs, they would be
perfect!

(Now I just have to hope that someone 50 years from now will care!)

Click to expand...

--
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I wish I had your confidence. I have lost digital photos that were stored on CDs because the metal film on the CD literally "peeled off" and was rendered completely useless.

One thing is for sure, I no longer buy the cheapest CDs -- I now look for the most expensive!

I heard a talk at a Texas Press Association convention given by a professional archivist who said he had "grave concerns" about the shift to digital photography because CDs and DVDs are not reliable media and have not stood the test of time.

Hard drives also, unfortunately, fail from time to time.

Joe

Brivers said:

Joe E Baker said:

I bought a D70 because I enjoy the speed, convenience and instant
gratification of digital -- not to mention the savings on film and
film processing.

However...I kept my F5 for really "important" photos.

Digital still has a long way to go to catch up with the resolution
contained within the space in a 35mm negative. (Perhaps when there
are 50 megapixel cameras this will be less of an issue.) Also, It's
hard to argue with the durability of film negatives. Who knows if
50 years from now you'll be able to read those CDs or open those
old JPEGs. But 50 years from now, you will still be able to get a
great image from that neg.

Joe

Click to expand...

--
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You must have an incredibly well-organized sock drawer.

You make it sound so simple -- just remember every five years to reburn to a new format -- what if you're shooting 200 photos a day? That means that every single day you need to reburn the 200 photos that you shot on that day five years earlier -- every single day -- who is going to remember to do that? Who has that kind of time?

I have a hard enough time (as my wife reminds me) remembering to take out the trash and pick up diapers, milk and eggs after work

Joe

talmy said:

Joe E Baker said:

Also, It's
hard to argue with the durability of film negatives. Who knows if
50 years from now you'll be able to read those CDs or open those
old JPEGs. But 50 years from now, you will still be able to get a
great image from that neg.

Click to expand...

Not that hard to argue. It all depends on how you take care of the
media. My 40 year old Tri-X negatives and (my father's) 57 year old
Kodachrome slides look good except for scratches (hard to scratch a
digital image) while most commercial slides bought in the 60-70's
are shot and the Ektachromes from the 50's and 60's have color
shifted and must be digitized and processed to restore.

OTOH, a digital image is forever as long as you maintain it on
readable media. Just transfer the the latest technology every five
years. I wouldn't trust a 50 year old CD, but if those 1947
Kodachromes were instead digital images, saved on punch cards,
converted to paper tape in the 1970's, then 8" floppies, then 5.25"
floppies, then 3.5" floppies then CDs, and now DVDs, they would be
perfect!

(Now I just have to hope that someone 50 years from now will care!)

Click to expand...

kjandb said:

I'm attending Boise State University and have decided to take the
intro to creative photography course. Unfortunately, the class
requires a film SLR and I do not have one. I would like to get one
to compliment the D70 well...one that has interchangeable lenses
and equipment. I don't want to spend too much money because I don't
see myself using film very often, but I want to buy one that can be
used as a backup for weddings. $500 max and preferably around $300.
Any suggestions? Is the N80 what I'm looking for?

Click to expand...

--
Ken Eis

sting said:

It's faster to learn these with the digital camera as you can inspect
your results on the LCD display or on the computer a few
minutes later.

Click to expand...

I have a theory about that..

Back when I first attended a school I had an FE-2 and slide film. Every week everyone exposed a few rolls and we would lay them on several light boxes and we would examine them all. It was obvious if you had exposed incorrectly and by examining the photo you could usually determine what had gone wrong and how to fix it.

So far it'd be the same for digital, but here's the difference: The image remained a mistake. You couldn't pull it into photoshop and save it. You couldn't immediately take another photo. The mistake really hurt. And if it was some shot you thought was special at the time and took you ages to find, setup, wait for, it hurt even more. What you did was resolve to remember what caused the mistake and never to do it again. i.e. it's the painful lessons that stick the most.

A dozen or so rolls later, nobody was making exposure mistakes. In the second that you survey a subject you would know how the exposure would be affected and what you needed to do to get teh shot you wanted. One girl got such a good feel for how light affected exposure that when the meter broke in her camera she was still able to get within 1/2 a stop for almost 100% of her shots. (I found that quite freaky!)

Fast forward to now. I've had my D70 for a few of months and whilst trying to become accustomed to how it works I recently found myself falling into the habit of using the lcd histogram/highlights as a feedback loop after each shot. i.e. rather than learn how the camera would expose a given scene and compensating for artistic purpose it became too easy to take a shot, look at the lcd and say "I guess I need a bit of exposure compensation" and take another shot without necessarily understanding why or learning how to exposure would be affected given a similar scene. (The complexity of matrix metering probably doesn't help though). At a conference I was at I saw a pro (the conference photographer) doing the same thing. He would check the lcd after every shot. It was usually a case of click, check lcd, twiddle somthing, click, check lcd, twiddle something, click..

The lcd does provide valuable information. But if it starts becoming part of an iterative process then you learn less about how to adjust for the correct exposure before hand and more about how the controls move the histogram peaks to the left or right.

(I should probably wear my flameproof suit about now?)

Shawn

Shawn Foo said:

At a conference I was at I saw a pro (the conference photographer) doing the same
thing. He would check the lcd after every shot. It was usually a
case of click, check lcd, twiddle somthing, click, check lcd,
twiddle something, click..

Click to expand...

That's a normal process in the PJ workflow nowadays. I check my LCD only to make sure my focus was correct and sharp. I shoot manual most the time and adjust accordingly to the lighting conditions. I rarely have out of focus shots as compared to many other press photographers still trying to grasp the concept of digital, many who curse the day they had to switch from film.

In fact my girlfriend who specializes in digital photo editing, is getting job offers from agencies and freelancers who can't handle the work that comes from these photographers who are unable to process their own photos.

The beauty of digital is that I have control of my image from the time the shutter goes off, to when my photo goes to the client. I have COMPLETE control. I do my own cropping, sharpening and color correction. My entire workflow is integrated with my camera. I then can send my photos worldwide withing an hour from when I took the shot. My darkroom is my laptop, and with an internet connection you can work anywhere in the world.

I know this doesn't apply to all within the photography industry, but in the PJ work this is how it is and those who still cling to film are becoming a dying breed.

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I absolutely endorse the prior posts advice.

Check with the instructor first.

An FM2 or old totally manual camera (I hauled a pair of Nikon F prism bodies (no meter) and an old Nikkormat to RIT back in the early 80's) is THE best way to learn some of the basics that will serve you well later when you shoot digital. Don't be afraid to go used either if you're on a budget.

But the instructors advice comes above all.

-m

A Nikon F65. You can buy a body for just 179 plus shipping from B&H.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?ci=1&O=&A=search&Q=&shs=NIF65B

Two interesting reviews of this camera from people that I am sure many of you are familiar with and I personally respect the opinion of...
http://www.bythom.com/n65.htm
http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/n65.htm

If you only want a film SLR because it is a requirement then I don't see the need to spend one dollar more than necessary and a used F65 usually sells on eBay for not much less than new so you can ditch it later on without much hassle.
--
I ignore all polical and PF threads!
My photography...
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OT, but I disagree with you on the Latin. I did this at school and hated it. However I'm now glad I did because it makes language (reading,writing and speaking) so much more interesting when you can recognise the root words that are common across so many european languages. Much the same applies to ancient Greek.

Those interested in flora/fauna (good latin words themselves) would also appreciate it too.

Monday is 'Moon-day', which comes from the French 'Lundi' which in turn is from the latin for Moon. Mad people were supposed to worship the moon and are thus known as Lunatics. (I mention this because the Lunar eclipse, oops there I go again is a popular topic at the moment.)

Also, if you saw the last Harry Potter movie you would guess that Professor Lupin was a werewolf (from Latin Lupus) well before it was revealed.

Oh, and of course there is Camera Obscura...

OK, you're not necessarily going to benefit as much as you might with maths or science but I'm happy to know a little and hope it doesn't dissapear from the curriculum(!).

Brivers said:

which is also a waste. Unless you are to become a professor in a
language, otherwise, a waste. I took latin.....

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Do the N50 and N65 support VR & AF-S ? I thought that you needed at least the N75 ?

Dan said:

If you are on a budget, you can get N65, N75 or even N50.

Click to expand...

Klank said:

N80 is a great camera. Howerver, you cannot use the DX Kit lens
that comes with the D70 on the N80. The lens will mount, however
the lens is made for the Nikon DX sensor and will vignett quite a
lot...

-Ryan

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Which would give you a good reason for buying a 50 1.8D. It is cheaper than just about every memory card I own and fully compatible with the N80 or even better the cheaper F65. That along with some 1600 speed film (color or B&W) and you will also own a near perfect no flash/low light camera for hardly any money.
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My photography...
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Russ25 said:

I have a Nikon N90s that i will sell for 300.00 (body only) in
great shape a very reliable.

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I've seen them in mint condition go for less on eBay.
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I ignore all polical and PF threads!
My photography...
http://darkangel.smugmug.com/

G lenses are not fully compatibly with N90S/F90X, These lenses can only be used in Shutter Priority or Program modes due to the lack of perature ring.

Matt

brokenz said:

Russ25 said:

I have a Nikon N90s that i will sell for 300.00 (body only) in
great shape a very reliable.

Click to expand...

I've seen them in mint condition go for less on eBay.
--
I ignore all polical and PF threads!
My photography...
http://darkangel.smugmug.com/

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Any of: N65, N75, or N80 - then you will have all the features (AF-S, VR, matrix, distance metering, etc.) of the lenses you own.

You can verify this suggestion by reading Thom's table, here http://bythom.com/lensacronyms.htm (You of course want the 4th row down in the table).

Russ25 said:

I have a Nikon N90s that i will sell for 300.00 (body only) in
great shape a very reliable.

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Cheers, Paul.

Going way off-topic here ...

Without disagreeing with the gist of your argument, this bit isn't strictly correct - "Monday" actually comes (like much of English) from Anglo-Saxon (monendaeg) (and most of the days of the week are actually named after Anglo-Saxon, not Roman, Gods).

Perhaps an argument for teaching Anglo-Saxon as well as Latin ...

Richard Philpott

Schmee said:

Monday is 'Moon-day', which comes from the French 'Lundi' which in
turn is from the latin for Moon.

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