Reading mode: Light Dark

FZ20 Haze...

Go to last post
I haven't really noticed much image quality difference. See mys site: http://art4less.smugmug.com - except for galleries in FZ20 review, all pics were from FZ10 - old, new, better and so-so. I haven't cleaned out my site and there are test, original, carefully done and some bad shots.
cheers,
gil
brightrock said:
Hi,

I'm having a really hard time getting completely confortable with
the FZ20 images. Believe me, I'm trying. Here's my story and my
problem; if it is a problem; if it isnt' just all in my head.

I've been interested in the FZ10 ever since I got my little LC33
point and shoot. I was waiting until the price went down, and then
the FZ20 and FZ15 came along. I was very excited-- most of the
features that I would have liked on the FZ10 were added and the
price was still great. I looked at the sample photos at
panasonic's web site and waited for reviews. The panasonic samples
were very impressive in some ways (details on the eagle picture and
others) but a number of them looked underexposed, or like the
camera was capturing a haze in the air, or like the camera's engine
was creating some kind of atmosphere in the images. I couldn't put
my finger on it, and I had an especially hard time figuring it out
since it was not in all the pictures. As more pictures and reviews
have become available I've kept looking. And I still see this in a
number of the pictures that are taken. In some instances I'm very
impressed with the FZ20 detail beside other cameras, then I compare
other pictures and that hazy feel seems to still be there. For a
couple of examples. Compare the FZ10 and FZ20 pictures from
Steve's gallery. Especially, the red brick building and the
marina. I know that the time of day, and weather can make a
difference, but after looking at many many FZ20 shots I've become
pretty convinced that this is something that there is some
characteristic of the camera I'm noticing here. I'm not even
saying whether or not it is a bad characteristic. In some
instances it just looks as though the FZ20 has probably taken a
more realistically colored picture and that other cameras are
recording colors brighter than they actually are (the statue in
DCPReview gallery is an example of this). One possible explanation
has occurred to me. That is that the above-average noise which is
only visible in blue skies and darker and shadowed areas of the
pictures is actually also present in the rest of the image causing,
in some instances, the whole picture too look a bit dull or flat,
or hazy. I've looked at many pictures for the noise and am
convinced that the visible noise (in skies, etc) is managable and
handleable-- who's ever glad about noise? But honestly, you don't
see it unless you are looking for it.

Anyhow, I'm interested to know what you all have to say about this.
I've enjoyed reading many of your posts and looking at your photos.
I've actually been able to handle the FZ20 and like its feel and
features a lot better than the 10, so I really hope there is a good
explanation, or something.

Thanks,

Brightrock
p.s. To complicate matters in the color department, I'm red/green
color-blind. In many cases the appearance of texture in a picture
or situation stands out to me more than to others, and colors kind
of take second place. Perhaps this means I'm describing a texture
difference in the pictures, not a color difference. I don't know.
Click to expand...
--
Old/new/good/maybe pics in http://art4less.smugmug.com
 
brightrock said:
I haven't seen the haze be as much of an issue in the FZ10. But
maybe I should go back and look at some more FZ10 images.
Click to expand...
Perhaps it could be as simple a matter as flare that you are seeing in your pictures. If you are shooting into the sun, or slightly against it, even, without a sunshade (lens hood), there is a real opportunity for sunlight to strike the lens. This can manifest itself in several ways, one of which is highly reduced contrast, giving the effect you seem to be describing.

dc3
 
I didn't have haze in all photos, but a significant amount either had a thin haze and/or looked slightly overexposed. But I think it depends a lot on your climate. I want to add that this is not a camera defect, rather, I consider it adjusting for the climate and atmosphere where I live, which I have to do with all my cameras to some degree.
brightrock said:
Thanks for your input.
Darlene Goff said:
I had a similar problem down here in sunny South Texas with my
FZ10. I believe it is only overexposure and nothing more serious.
It also could just be atmospheric haze that you can't see but the
camera does. It can be tweaked in PS and corrected, but a circular
polarizer fixed the problem for me on my FZ10. In addition, even
with the polarizer I still minus the EV. Without a polarizer, I use
a -1-1/3 on the FZ10 during the sunny days. I have polarizers for
most of my cameras. An ND filter should also work. Haze/UV filters
don't really help with this.

--
Darlene
Nikon 995, 4300, 4500, 5700, 8800
Panasonic FZ10
http://www.pbase.com/imacatmom
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
Darlene
Nikon 995, 4300, 4500, 5700, 8800
Panasonic FZ10
http://www.pbase.com/imacatmom
 
No thanks, you're welcome,

As an 'old-school' photographer (coming from analoge) I agree. The lens is most important. Serious lens flaws will ruin every picture and are hard to correct (if at all) by post-processing.

The sensor is a different thing. Bayer-sensors (like in the FZ20) can't do without a processor for complex internal computing (Bayer-interpolation) even to get a RAW-picture. Looking at the examples on the net it is just my guess (there is no way to be sure) that the phenomena you discribe has to do with the sensor. But I also think it is possible to make adjustments easily and that the phenomena is intentional. It doesn't effect all pictures and is very dependent of lighting and circumstances. Some pictures are perfect, others a little low on contrast. So I think it has to do with the way Panasonic adjusted the internal processing for this processor with just a little less contrast than the FZ10. The reason might be that the FZ20 has a very small sensor even compared to other compact digital cameras. Putting 5 mpixels on it means that the sensitivity decreases (compared to the FZ10) and the noise increases. By turning down the contrast a notch the noise will be less vissible. This trick is wellknown and Fuji cameras like the S7000 are (in)famous for it. Fuji went as far to let the internal computer vary the amount of contrast, sharpening and noise suppression depending of the brightness of the picture, the shutterspeed used and the sensitivity (so the picture quality can vary also).

Again, it is my guess that Panasonic had to change the internal processing because of the different output from the small 5 Mpixel sensor to get a grip on noise. I played around with some of the examples and was able to get very nice results with a little post-processing (a touch more contrast and a little sharpening, no big deal). It does however produce a bit more vissible noise, but that is only important for the noise-fetishists out there. I, coming from analoge film, am used to a lot more film noise so I don't mind. So I shouldn't worry to much. I actually like the results of the FZ20.

Ron
brightrock said:
Thanks again for the post!
Click to expand...
 
Hi gil,

Does the 1 Mp difference not matter that much? Does noise offset the increased resolution?

Also, I'm not necessarily talking about a quality difference only. I'm just interested in the impressions of those who use both and about the differences between the images that each produce. A number of people have given detailed reviews of the differences in features-- I'm wondering about the differences in pictures. Surely there must be some characteristics to notice as differences.

Thanks for the link to your gallery. I've looked before and looked again and enjoyed your art. I liked the Seattle point and shoot, especially. Isn't the Northwest a beautiful place? My screen's resolution makes the largest setting on your pictures a bit small to feel like I'm really looking at any details in the pictures, though. I need a gallery with 1600x1200 to look at samples my screen size. I found one from a guy in Northern Europe (Finland?) a couple of weeks ago and saved the link, but it stopped working promptly thereafter. :( But it was only an FZ20 gallery anyhow.

Thanks for your answers.

BR
gil said:
I haven't really noticed much image quality difference. See mys
site: http://art4less.smugmug.com - except for galleries in FZ20
review, all pics were from FZ10 - old, new, better and so-so. I
haven't cleaned out my site and there are test, original, carefully
done and some bad shots.
cheers,
gil
Click to expand...
 
It might be that the camera can have problems with it's internal contrast and saturation calculations...Post processing can bring it right up to WOW level. I also could input bad + - in EV.

Examples Before and After:
Before:



After by using Virtualphotographer plug in vith Irfanview (Both FREE)



Make - Panasonic
Model - DMC-FZ20
Orientation - Top left
XResolution - 72
YResolution - 72
ResolutionUnit - Inch
DateTime - 2004:10:23 13:03:41
YCbCrPositioning - Co-Sited
ExifOffset - 526
CustomRendered - Normal process
ExposureMode - Auto
WhiteBalance - Auto
DigitalZoomRatio - 0.00 x
FocalLengthIn35mmFilm - 182 mm
SceneCaptureType - Standard
GainControl - None
Contrast - Normal
Saturation - Normal
Sharpness - Normal
ExposureTime - 1/25 seconds
FNumber - 8.00
ExposureProgram - Aperture priority
ISOSpeedRatings - 80
ExifVersion - 0220
DateTimeOriginal - 2004:10:23 13:03:41
DateTimeDigitized - 2004:10:23 13:03:41
ComponentsConfiguration - YCbCr
CompressedBitsPerPixel - 4 (bits/pixel)
ExposureBiasValue - -0.66
MaxApertureValue - F 2.83
MeteringMode - Multi-segment
LightSource - Auto
Flash - Not fired, compulsory flash mode
FocalLength - 30.40 mm
FlashPixVersion - 0100
ColorSpace - sRGB
ExifImageWidth - 1920
ExifImageHeight - 2560
SensingMethod - One-chip color area sensor
FileSource - DSC - Digital still camera
SceneType - A directly photographed image
 
I found the same thing. Either a circular polarizer for bright sunny photos or a minor tweak in PS or adjusting the EV took care of the problem. Now I rarely have a problem because I adjust for it.

--
Darlene
Nikon 995, 4300, 4500, 5700, 8800
Panasonic FZ10
http://www.pbase.com/imacatmom
 
Well, try setting exposure comp down by -1/3 or -2/3, in almost all circumstances that will improve the picture.

I also seem to recall an article a while back where a Panasonic design engineer mentioned that the camera was optimized for producing prints, and that the images might sometimes seem odd on-screen. Something to do with the color space.

Though I have to say, I have a color-corrected large screen, and the pics tend to look pretty good on that.
 
Are you aware that the default noise-reduction setting in the FZ20 is too strong and gives noisy sections of photos a painted look? Setting it to LOW cures that problem.

I'm not sure if this relates to your "haze" but few people seem to mention Panasonic's unusual choice for "standard" noise-reduction.
brightrock said:
DCPReview gallery is an example of this). One possible explanation
has occurred to me. That is that the above-average noise which is
only visible in blue skies and darker and shadowed areas of the
pictures is actually also present in the rest of the image causing,
in some instances, the whole picture too look a bit dull or flat,
or hazy. I've looked at many pictures for the noise and am
convinced that the visible noise (in skies, etc) is managable and
handleable-- who's ever glad about noise? But honestly, you don't
see it unless you are looking for it.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks! All the ideas are helpful. The fact of the matter is that I don't have an FZ20 yet-- so I'm just observing results in sample photos. I can't seem to identify Noise Reduction settings in normal EXIF info-- so whether that is the problem I can't tell for sure-- if it is default it could easily be the problem. I'm pretty sure I'm going to get an FZ20 and play with it. You all have helped to convince me that I can probably tweek it to avoid what I think I might be seeing in the sample photos online.

Thanks Again,

Brightrock
lovelife said:
Two things cause this condition no lens hood and overexposure.

--
If you have time, visit http://lovelife.smugmug.com/

Click to expand...
 
Gian Pablo Villamil said:
I also seem to recall an article a while back where a Panasonic
design engineer mentioned that the camera was optimized for
producing prints, and that the images might sometimes seem odd
on-screen. Something to do with the color space.
Click to expand...
This fits with what we discovered - that milky looking pics onscreen are crystal clear, sharp pictures when printed (on our Canon, can't speak for other printers) As I said on another thread, sorry Panasonic
--
Pennyanne
 
It can be real frustrating. The only color correction I can do is whatever PS does automatically. If I try to do anything with colors, my wife is quick to ask what I was thinking. The good news is that I really like B&W, so I am trying to do most everything with B&W conversion. I typically try to tweak the colors first just to get some manner of contrast and brightness that I like. I pretty much ignore the colors themselves.

Good luck!
--
Jim B in Indiana
Panasonic FZ10
 
Dear Greg,

I have virtualphotographer and it works with Paint Shop Pro and Elements, but I cannot get it to work with latest Irfanview. How did you plug it in and where?
Thanks,
Bob
 
In Irfanview:
1. Open an image so the options will not be grayed out.

2. Menu Image/Effects/Adobe 8bf filters (Cntr-K)

3. Click the button on the right (Add 8BF filters)

this will bring up a browser. select the directory where the plugins for photoshop are.

Irfanview added all the plugins I had. Some of the only worked with photoshop while other photoshop plugins also worked with IrfanView. I just clicked the remove button on the above menu to take away filters that would not work with Irfanview.

Hope it helps.
Robert Reis said:
Dear Greg,
I have virtualphotographer and it works with Paint Shop Pro and
Elements, but I cannot get it to work with latest Irfanview. How
did you plug it in and where?
Thanks,
Bob
Click to expand...
 
Have you ruled out the possibility that long zoom shots will have more haze by the simple fact of seeing through more air, with or without particulates? When I see evidence of "haze" it's usually in long telephoto images, but I know this is a subjective thing. The Venus Engine may also be doing some sort of averaging or smoothing.

Also, a lower F-stop may give a less sharp picture, adding to the effect. See if the hazy shots are F2.8, etc..
brightrock said:
Hi,

I'm having a really hard time getting completely confortable with
the FZ20 images. Believe me, I'm trying. Here's my story and my
problem; if it is a problem; if it isnt' just all in my head.

I've been interested in the FZ10 ever since I got my little LC33
point and shoot. I was waiting until the price went down, and then
the FZ20 and FZ15 came along. I was very excited-- most of the
features that I would have liked on the FZ10 were added and the
price was still great. I looked at the sample photos at
panasonic's web site and waited for reviews. The panasonic samples
were very impressive in some ways (details on the eagle picture and
others) but a number of them looked underexposed, or like the
camera was capturing a haze in the air, or like the camera's engine
was creating some kind of atmosphere in the images. I couldn't put
my finger on it, and I had an especially hard time figuring it out
since it was not in all the pictures. As more pictures and reviews
have become available I've kept looking. And I still see this in a
number of the pictures that are taken. In some instances I'm very
impressed with the FZ20 detail beside other cameras, then I compare
other pictures and that hazy feel seems to still be there. For a
couple of examples. Compare the FZ10 and FZ20 pictures from
Steve's gallery. Especially, the red brick building and the
marina. I know that the time of day, and weather can make a
difference, but after looking at many many FZ20 shots I've become
pretty convinced that this is something that there is some
characteristic of the camera I'm noticing here. I'm not even
saying whether or not it is a bad characteristic. In some
instances it just looks as though the FZ20 has probably taken a
more realistically colored picture and that other cameras are
recording colors brighter than they actually are (the statue in
DCPReview gallery is an example of this). One possible explanation
has occurred to me. That is that the above-average noise which is
only visible in blue skies and darker and shadowed areas of the
pictures is actually also present in the rest of the image causing,
in some instances, the whole picture too look a bit dull or flat,
or hazy. I've looked at many pictures for the noise and am
convinced that the visible noise (in skies, etc) is managable and
handleable-- who's ever glad about noise? But honestly, you don't
see it unless you are looking for it.

Anyhow, I'm interested to know what you all have to say about this.
I've enjoyed reading many of your posts and looking at your photos.
I've actually been able to handle the FZ20 and like its feel and
features a lot better than the 10, so I really hope there is a good
explanation, or something.

Thanks,

Brightrock
p.s. To complicate matters in the color department, I'm red/green
color-blind. In many cases the appearance of texture in a picture
or situation stands out to me more than to others, and colors kind
of take second place. Perhaps this means I'm describing a texture
difference in the pictures, not a color difference. I don't know.
Click to expand...
 
Can I ask - did you use one of the preset filters in Virtualphotographer or did you adjust settings manually? I just downloaded Virtualphotographer and it's helped my autumn color shots pop better, but I don't seem to be doing much to clear up hazy photos.

Thanks!

Sharon
greghFZ20 said:
It might be that the camera can have problems with it's internal
contrast and saturation calculations...Post processing can bring it
right up to WOW level. I also could input bad + - in EV.

Examples Before and After:
Before:



After by using Virtualphotographer plug in vith Irfanview (Both FREE)



Make - Panasonic
Model - DMC-FZ20
Orientation - Top left
XResolution - 72
YResolution - 72
ResolutionUnit - Inch
DateTime - 2004:10:23 13:03:41
YCbCrPositioning - Co-Sited
ExifOffset - 526
CustomRendered - Normal process
ExposureMode - Auto
WhiteBalance - Auto
DigitalZoomRatio - 0.00 x
FocalLengthIn35mmFilm - 182 mm
SceneCaptureType - Standard
GainControl - None
Contrast - Normal
Saturation - Normal
Sharpness - Normal
ExposureTime - 1/25 seconds
FNumber - 8.00
ExposureProgram - Aperture priority
ISOSpeedRatings - 80
ExifVersion - 0220
DateTimeOriginal - 2004:10:23 13:03:41
DateTimeDigitized - 2004:10:23 13:03:41
ComponentsConfiguration - YCbCr
CompressedBitsPerPixel - 4 (bits/pixel)
ExposureBiasValue - -0.66
MaxApertureValue - F 2.83
MeteringMode - Multi-segment
LightSource - Auto
Flash - Not fired, compulsory flash mode
FocalLength - 30.40 mm
FlashPixVersion - 0100
ColorSpace - sRGB
ExifImageWidth - 1920
ExifImageHeight - 2560
SensingMethod - One-chip color area sensor
FileSource - DSC - Digital still camera
SceneType - A directly photographed image
Click to expand...
 
I think I used the mountain preset and sharpened.

Can you post an example of a hazy photo?
sharonmg said:
Can I ask - did you use one of the preset filters in
Virtualphotographer or did you adjust settings manually? I just
downloaded Virtualphotographer and it's helped my autumn color
shots pop better, but I don't seem to be doing much to clear up
hazy photos.

Thanks!

Sharon
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Keyboard shortcuts

f
Forum
m
My threads
Mobile site
About
Editorial content
Cameras & Lenses
Community
All content, design, and layout are Copyright © 1998–2025 Digital Photography Review All Rights Reserved.
Reproduction in whole or part in any form or medium without specific written permission is prohibited.
When you use DPReview links to buy products, the site may earn a commission.
©GPS Media - Guides, Products, Services.
Back
Top