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20D, AI Servo and Kids Sports Question

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I was wrong...must go back and memorize manual (which i had read :)

Lee
richardharris said:
In servo mode, if all points selected uses centre to focus but will
follow with any that become covered by object. If manual point
selected only that one is used.

Thus uses all points for best esults, plus fast lens.

Richard
richardharris said:
Richard
richardharris said:
Thing is...when you go into AI Servo mode -- you lose the focus
lights completely. Thus no way to change focus points. I was just
trying to be polite.....there is no way to select focus point when
you are in AI Servo mode.

Read the manual, it explains how it works.

Lee
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
great reads.

http://photonotes.org/other/ai-servo.html
MelD said:
I usually am more of a nature/landscape photographer, but this past
weekend decided to try out my new 20D on some kids' soccer matches,
just to experiment. I used a 70-200 f/4, set the focus to AI Servo
and proceeded shoot. These were mostly pretty small kids, so the
action was not very fast really, but I found that very few of the
shots were in focus.

So I was curious what technique you use to get sharp sports shots.
Do you use manual focus? Or if using AI Servo, do you use automatic
focal points, center focal points, etc?

As I mentioned, this is not my typical type of photography, but I
would really like some tips on how to improve the results for
future attempts at action shots.
Click to expand...
--
-tim
http://www.pbase.com/pdqgp
 
Mark Gillett said:
Mark Gillett said:
I think you missed a point some one made earlier on. With all
points you have no control over which object is creating or
controlling the focus point.
Click to expand...
Using all points you have total control. The camera alway locks on
with the centre point in AI Servo then uses the other to aid focus.
It will not use another point to focus.

All these were taken in AI servo using 7 points activiated.

http://www.pbase.com/markgillett/tennis
Click to expand...
While you are correctly quoting the manual, I still stand by what I said, if another moving object comes into the focus field of one of the other points and your central focus point is not on your subject, then the focus will change to the new object. The manual only talks about one subject in the focus field not many moving subjects.

Unless my memory is failing me, there are other players usually chasing the ball in a soccer match etc.

So you don't have total control of the focus.

--
Ian the pbase supporter.
http://pbase.com/ianm_au
An amateur with dreams of being a good to excellent photographer.
 
My suggestion, and I've taken a fair amount of pictures and by and large 80%+ of them are in focus, is to keep the athelete center frame on center focus and shoot the framing a little "loose" so that you and "recompose" in post. There is no way in action sports photography to set the focus and then recompose. Then you miss the shot.

Also, althougth it takes getting used to, the CF4.1 is a great option and one that I use ALL the time. Allows you a lot more options by being able to control the focus and shutter seperatly.

Cameron
addysdaddy said:
which is currently causing my confusion. Can anyone help clarify?
Click to expand...
 
I gotta tell you, I think your percentage of in-focus shots is going to be MUCH lower doing this than staying CF only. Now, for the 10D I KNOW that is the case, because I've done it both ways and the 10D functions MUCH better on CF that all points.

I haven't tried the 20D on all points yet, but on center point and a 2.8 or faster lens, you get a cross-hair pattern on the center point, which should offer you even better focusing on fast action. My first try at sports this weekend with the 20D really seemed to bear that out.

Cameron
rlindabury said:
While I've done this with the 10D, from what I understand, you
should NOT be using ONLY the center AF point.

The way the AF points are supposed to work is that they are all
used to detect movement of the subject in the frame and adjust
focus (predict) accordingly.

If you're only using the center point, you will have a lot of
problems when the subject isn't centered in the frame, which may be
much of the time.

Like I said, with the 10D I used center a lot and I tried all
points but the 10D was just too slow especially with the slow
100-400L I've been using. So I ended up using center point.

With the 20D I'm going to try to use all points and see what happens.
MelD said:
I usually am more of a nature/landscape photographer, but this past
weekend decided to try out my new 20D on some kids' soccer matches,
just to experiment. I used a 70-200 f/4, set the focus to AI Servo
and proceeded shoot. These were mostly pretty small kids, so the
action was not very fast really, but I found that very few of the
shots were in focus.

So I was curious what technique you use to get sharp sports shots.
Do you use manual focus? Or if using AI Servo, do you use automatic
focal points, center focal points, etc?

As I mentioned, this is not my typical type of photography, but I
would really like some tips on how to improve the results for
future attempts at action shots.
Click to expand...
--
Bob Lindabury
Click to expand...
 
Lee,

You should have looked at my mea culpa for the same mistake. That's what you get for not reading the threads before posting! :-).

DSC
LeeBase said:
I was wrong...must go back and memorize manual (which i had read :)
Click to expand...
 
Shooting multiple frames vs. one shot should not have any effect on the percent of pictures in focus. It is a RARE day that I shoot TWO in a row, let alone five. I think you issue is more with technique and practice. Keep that kid in the center, use CF, and keep trying. Sometimes it FEELS like you keep the kid center, but in the lag between when you hit the shutter and it actually fires, the kid moves and your focus point is off. It does take a little practice to "know" where the player will be.

Cameron
Imola Red said:
Give the camera a chance to follow everything. When I would do
sports with my D70 I would fire off a shot just before the action
and then fire thru the action. Then delete the shots I didn't need.
MelD said:
Donald Cooper said:
FWIW, his problem was that he was using One Shot. This will not
work for sports since it won't change the focus plane after locking
focus. AI Focus would work though -- and you can select the focus
point in this mode -- but AI Servo works better for sports since
there is no hesitation attributable to determining the subject is
moving.

DSC
Imola Red said:
with taking shots of sports the center focus point is the mid body.
What about adjusting the focus point to the top focus point?

Would that help get the faces in focus?

I don't have my 20D yet but I know it helped with my D70 on
portraits and other full body shots.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
I have a question for you. In AI-Servo, if you select one point instead of auto (any point really), if the subject moves to another focus point, will the camera focus using that second point? Or will it just use the selected point (like in one shot)?

My point is that I'm sure you can use a custom function to temporarily stop the focal point switching in AI-Servo. I've never tried this though so it may be awkward as all get out.

DSC
irm said:
Mark Gillett said:
irm said:
I think you missed a point some one made earlier on. With all
points you have no control over which object is creating or
controlling the focus point.
Click to expand...
Using all points you have total control. The camera alway locks on
with the centre point in AI Servo then uses the other to aid focus.
It will not use another point to focus.

All these were taken in AI servo using 7 points activiated.

http://www.pbase.com/markgillett/tennis
Click to expand...
While you are correctly quoting the manual, I still stand by what I
said, if another moving object comes into the focus field of one of
the other points and your central focus point is not on your
subject, then the focus will change to the new object. The manual
only talks about one subject in the focus field not many moving
subjects.

Unless my memory is failing me, there are other players usually
chasing the ball in a soccer match etc.

So you don't have total control of the focus.

--
Ian the pbase supporter.
http://pbase.com/ianm_au
An amateur with dreams of being a good to excellent photographer.
Click to expand...
 
Donald Cooper said:
I have a question for you. In AI-Servo, if you select one point
instead of auto (any point really), if the subject moves to another
focus point, will the camera focus using that second point? Or will
it just use the selected point (like in one shot)?
Click to expand...
No it doesn't and that is the limitation of single-point AI servo. You have in fact "turned-off" all the other points - your might as well think of the camera as having only 1 focus point and you must keep it on the subject for AI servo to keep the focus there and not wander off. If you can do this, then you'll have greater accuracy and less chance of some other focus point locking-on to the wrong player/thing.

Auto multipoint selections is more forgiving for tracking a single subject. It uses the center point to achieve initial focus and then uses any of the points to keep it in focus. The downside is that with a bigger area, another player/thing can fall under 1 of those points which makes it possible (but not certain!) that the camera will get fooled and switch focus to this new player/thing.
 
I'm shooting with a 20D and 70-200 f4 like the origional poster. I shoot both my kids soccer games every sat. now for 3 weeks since I got the 20D. I have been shooting about 400 shots every weekend and get good results. I moved from the DReb and the AI Servo makes a huge difference in the number of keepers. I would say 75 to 80%. I use F4 and in the following examples I had to go to ISO 800 to get the shutter speed up. I also us AV mode. Here is a sequence of 3 shots where the first is oof and then got the second and third in focus. I have nothing to do with all of those shots but I share them with the other parents and they seem to like to look. Its fun for me and keeps me in the game.
Greg






Frank Weston said:
Next, you should consider DOF. If you want your subjects to stand
out from distracting background, consider shooting at wider
apertures. f/8 will bring in too much background. Try apertures
from f/2.8 to f/4.

AI Servo and centerpoint focus are generally the correct choices,
but you do have to be flexible. Consider each shot and choose the
correct setup. Players in a huddle will require a different setup
than players on the run.

Finally, don't be afraid to sacrifice ISO for shutter speed with
the 20D. You can get very nice shots at ISO 1600. Also, don't be
afraid to use a monopod. The 70-200 isn't that heavy, but the
smoother panning action you can get with a monopod will improve
your results.

Good luck with your next game!
MelD said:
I usually am more of a nature/landscape photographer, but this past
weekend decided to try out my new 20D on some kids' soccer matches,
just to experiment. I used a 70-200 f/4, set the focus to AI Servo
and proceeded shoot. These were mostly pretty small kids, so the
action was not very fast really, but I found that very few of the
shots were in focus.

So I was curious what technique you use to get sharp sports shots.
Do you use manual focus? Or if using AI Servo, do you use automatic
focal points, center focal points, etc?

As I mentioned, this is not my typical type of photography, but I
would really like some tips on how to improve the results for
future attempts at action shots.
Click to expand...
--
Frank Weston - http://www.weston.smugmug.com
Click to expand...
 
Seriously. I never focus on the eyes; i.e. the head when I shoot sport. First... I am going to be so far away so it isn't practical (the target is too small). I aim for the biggest target; that is, the body, because it is easier to track.

And as Lee said, I'm so far away that if I get the body in focus, the whole player will be in focus regardless of aparture (I often use 5.6 or faster)

Perhaps it is feasible in baseball (I don't know, we don't play baseball in Sweden) where the players are more stationary, but in soccer and other team sports the players are moving so fast and "random" that aiming for the eyes isn't practical, after all, sometime it is hard to keep the whole body within the center focus point.

Regards

--jalle
DigitalEOS said:
I do not believe I said to use the center focus point. If I shoot
vertical or horizontal I use the closest focus point to the eyes.
Take this photo..sorry about the web compression....



the focus point I used was on the eyes.

or this one



again, on the eyes.

It is possible, even more easy now with the thumbstick. Just
practice. And yes, there are times when I do not go for the eyes
because of a snap shot, but I would say 7-8 out of 10 shots I would
be focusing on the head/eyes.

As for DOF and DOF tools, forget it. While they will give you an
idea, they are by no way accurate. The best way to know what your
DOF is is to get to know the lens. Once you know the behavior of
your lens, and it's capabilities, then you will realize what is
going on....one of my favorite photos currently is from a fellow
SportsShooter member of a table tennis player. Her eyes are in the
upper third and off center quite a bit and in sharp focus. The
player is at eye level looking at the ball. The ball is in Dead
Center and way out of focus. IIRC the lens used was a 200 1.8.
upper focus points used, not center, composed nicely, and if you
have seen real table tennis, you know that is an amazing capture,
and one that can not just be set up because of the rapid movment.
Click to expand...
 
I was wondering how t answer this but now do not have to.

The other point is that no way is perfect and what ever you do requires skill and practice.

Mark
Julio said:
Donald Cooper said:
I have a question for you. In AI-Servo, if you select one point
instead of auto (any point really), if the subject moves to another
focus point, will the camera focus using that second point? Or will
it just use the selected point (like in one shot)?
Click to expand...
No it doesn't and that is the limitation of single-point AI servo.
You have in fact "turned-off" all the other points - your might as
well think of the camera as having only 1 focus point and you must
keep it on the subject for AI servo to keep the focus there and not
wander off. If you can do this, then you'll have greater accuracy
and less chance of some other focus point locking-on to the wrong
player/thing.
Auto multipoint selections is more forgiving for tracking a single
subject. It uses the center point to achieve initial focus and then
uses any of the points to keep it in focus. The downside is that
with a bigger area, another player/thing can fall under 1 of those
points which makes it possible (but not certain!) that the camera
will get fooled and switch focus to this new player/thing.
Click to expand...
--
http://www.pbase.com/markgillett
 
"In fact, the first frame of a continuous sequence shot in AI Servo AF is likely to be out of focus, especially with a subject moving either toward or away from the EOS1..."

http://photonotes.org/other/ai-servo.html

Regards

--jalle
Cameron Bernadsky said:
Cameron
Imola Red said:
Give the camera a chance to follow everything. When I would do
sports with my D70 I would fire off a shot just before the action
and then fire thru the action. Then delete the shots I didn't need.
MelD said:
Donald Cooper said:
FWIW, his problem was that he was using One Shot. This will not
work for sports since it won't change the focus plane after locking
focus. AI Focus would work though -- and you can select the focus
point in this mode -- but AI Servo works better for sports since
there is no hesitation attributable to determining the subject is
moving.

DSC
Imola Red said:
with taking shots of sports the center focus point is the mid body.
What about adjusting the focus point to the top focus point?

Would that help get the faces in focus?

I don't have my 20D yet but I know it helped with my D70 on
portraits and other full body shots.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Yeah, CF was a requirement with the 10D but I'll see what I can come up with. I typically shot drive mode with AI Servo and CF only active AF point on the 10D.

I think I'll do some tests with the 100-400L IS and maybe my 50mm 1.8 on the 20D and see what I come up with.
Cameron Bernadsky said:
I haven't tried the 20D on all points yet, but on center point and
a 2.8 or faster lens, you get a cross-hair pattern on the center
point, which should offer you even better focusing on fast action.
My first try at sports this weekend with the 20D really seemed to
bear that out.

Cameron
rlindabury said:
While I've done this with the 10D, from what I understand, you
should NOT be using ONLY the center AF point.

The way the AF points are supposed to work is that they are all
used to detect movement of the subject in the frame and adjust
focus (predict) accordingly.

If you're only using the center point, you will have a lot of
problems when the subject isn't centered in the frame, which may be
much of the time.

Like I said, with the 10D I used center a lot and I tried all
points but the 10D was just too slow especially with the slow
100-400L I've been using. So I ended up using center point.

With the 20D I'm going to try to use all points and see what happens.
MelD said:
I usually am more of a nature/landscape photographer, but this past
weekend decided to try out my new 20D on some kids' soccer matches,
just to experiment. I used a 70-200 f/4, set the focus to AI Servo
and proceeded shoot. These were mostly pretty small kids, so the
action was not very fast really, but I found that very few of the
shots were in focus.

So I was curious what technique you use to get sharp sports shots.
Do you use manual focus? Or if using AI Servo, do you use automatic
focal points, center focal points, etc?

As I mentioned, this is not my typical type of photography, but I
would really like some tips on how to improve the results for
future attempts at action shots.
Click to expand...
--
Bob Lindabury
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
Bob Lindabury
 
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