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Are these sharp or Out of Focus? (Pt 2)

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elwood

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Thanks for checking these out. This is from a 20D and 24-70 L. I think they are a bit soft, but I wanted to get an opinion from the people who know best. There was no sharpening. The chair lift pics are the softest.

Thanks for your help with this! I want to ensure that the camera and lens are performing to their best. I think it's too soft, but maybe I need to do more post-processing. Or higher f-stop #?

The pics are at http://www.pbase.com/p1800volvo/20d_test
 
Hi Elwood:

I find most of them very soft, it looks like you focused on the little boys knee, unless he moved his head.
Nice capture on the squirrel, too bad it's not in focus!
Don.
elwood said:
Thanks for checking these out. This is from a 20D and 24-70 L. I
think they are a bit soft, but I wanted to get an opinion from the
people who know best. There was no sharpening. The chair lift pics
are the softest.

Thanks for your help with this! I want to ensure that the camera
and lens are performing to their best. I think it's too soft, but
maybe I need to do more post-processing. Or higher f-stop #?

The pics are at http://www.pbase.com/p1800volvo/20d_test
Click to expand...
 
It does not readily appear that the lens is the problem. Your chair lift pics are at f/2.8 which is really far far too wide for a landscape type pic with a lot of depth to it. Even the pic of the boy on the toy tractor might benefit from a little more DOF. Some things are in focus and some are not. DOF likely explains that. On that same photo which focus point were you using. For people you normally want to make sure the eyes/face are in focus. This might mean you need to focus lock and re-compose, or move the focus point. You definitely don't want to have all the focus points active and simply let the camera choose.
  • Peter
elwood said:
Thanks for checking these out. This is from a 20D and 24-70 L. I
think they are a bit soft, but I wanted to get an opinion from the
people who know best. There was no sharpening. The chair lift pics
are the softest.

Thanks for your help with this! I want to ensure that the camera
and lens are performing to their best. I think it's too soft, but
maybe I need to do more post-processing. Or higher f-stop #?

The pics are at http://www.pbase.com/p1800volvo/20d_test
Click to expand...
 
First up, Canon DSLR images tend to be a little soft but respond well to post processing.

Secondly, none of these image represent good tests, however let's break down the issues:

Depth of Field

Referring to this shot:

http://www.pbase.com/p1800volvo/image/35195171

If using an aperture of f/2.8 and focusing at something about 80ft away will mean that anything within 20ft of you will be outside the area of acceptable sharpness.

Aperture

Wide open (at f/2.8) you lens might not perform as well as it would at f/8.

Movement

To me the picture of the boy looks pretty good. However, at that shutter speed some slight movement of the subject might lead to a little blur.

I think you need to do some better tests in controlled conditions, but from these shots the one issue that can possibly be detected is that your lens might have significant edge softness on the left side. This is especially noticeable in the chair lift shots. Compare the right and left halves of the frame. Objects on the left seem signifcantly less sharp than those on the right.

Simon C
http://www.eyematter.com
elwood said:
Thanks for checking these out. This is from a 20D and 24-70 L. I
think they are a bit soft, but I wanted to get an opinion from the
people who know best. There was no sharpening. The chair lift pics
are the softest.

Thanks for your help with this! I want to ensure that the camera
and lens are performing to their best. I think it's too soft, but
maybe I need to do more post-processing. Or higher f-stop #?

The pics are at http://www.pbase.com/p1800volvo/20d_test
Click to expand...
 
pmelsa said:
It does not readily appear that the lens is the problem. Your chair
lift pics are at f/2.8 which is really far far too wide for a
landscape type pic with a lot of depth to it.
Click to expand...
f2.8 is always going to be less sharp than stopping down a lil', even with an L lens. Due to the higher resolution of the 20D it's likey that a 1:1 crop will look slightly softer than say a 10D crop simply because you're asking more of the lens.

The watch looks ok and it looks like you could sharpen it a lot more without getting halos ...

--
------
AdrianX - BSc. MSc. Director.
http://www.AdrianJudd.com
 
From your statement "First up, Canon DSLR images tend to be a little soft..." why do a lot of people post that they get tack sharp pictures right out of the camera. I've had my 20D a little over a week and while the pictures appear to be in focus, I defintily wouldn't describe them as 'tack sharp'. This is my first DSLR(actually first digital camera), so I'm definitely the early learning stages. Are these people just not as picky as I am or can the 20D produce truly 'tack sharp' with no post processing?
Simon Courcha said:
well to post processing
Click to expand...
Simon Courcha said:
Secondly, none of these image represent good tests, however let's
break down the issues:

Depth of Field

Referring to this shot:

http://www.pbase.com/p1800volvo/image/35195171

If using an aperture of f/2.8 and focusing at something about 80ft
away will mean that anything within 20ft of you will be outside the
area of acceptable sharpness.

Aperture

Wide open (at f/2.8) you lens might not perform as well as it would
at f/8.

Movement

To me the picture of the boy looks pretty good. However, at that
shutter speed some slight movement of the subject might lead to a
little blur.

I think you need to do some better tests in controlled conditions,
but from these shots the one issue that can possibly be detected is
that your lens might have significant edge softness on the left
side. This is especially noticeable in the chair lift shots.
Compare the right and left halves of the frame. Objects on the left
seem signifcantly less sharp than those on the right.

Simon C
http://www.eyematter.com
elwood said:
Thanks for checking these out. This is from a 20D and 24-70 L. I
think they are a bit soft, but I wanted to get an opinion from the
people who know best. There was no sharpening. The chair lift pics
are the softest.

Thanks for your help with this! I want to ensure that the camera
and lens are performing to their best. I think it's too soft, but
maybe I need to do more post-processing. Or higher f-stop #?

The pics are at http://www.pbase.com/p1800volvo/20d_test
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
First, just let me emphasise your point that being soft and being out of focus are not the same thing.

Second, different people do indeed have different 'standards' when it comes to sharpness. One person's 'tack sharp' may not be the same as another's. In Amateur Photographer's (UK magazine) recent review of the 20D the relative softness of the pictures was mentioned, as well as the need to post process to really get the best out of the images.

Many people who feel Canon DSLR images are soft come from using compact digicams. These tend to do far more in camera sharpening. The images often look sharper out of the camera and people that are used to this find the transition difficult. Once you get used to Canon DSLR output you'll find that many compact digicam images look horribly oversharpened.

You can always change the camera's parameters to product sharper and more contrasty images straight from the camera. Most people seem to advise against this as in-camera processing is not as effective as post-processing using Elements or similar programs.

It would be interesting to see some of your shots with exposure and lens info. We could then see if you are indeed more picky than average!

Simon C
http://www.eyematter.com
SGW said:
SGW said:
well to post processing
Click to expand...
Simon Courcha said:
Secondly, none of these image represent good tests, however let's
break down the issues:

Depth of Field

Referring to this shot:

http://www.pbase.com/p1800volvo/image/35195171

If using an aperture of f/2.8 and focusing at something about 80ft
away will mean that anything within 20ft of you will be outside the
area of acceptable sharpness.

Aperture

Wide open (at f/2.8) you lens might not perform as well as it would
at f/8.

Movement

To me the picture of the boy looks pretty good. However, at that
shutter speed some slight movement of the subject might lead to a
little blur.

I think you need to do some better tests in controlled conditions,
but from these shots the one issue that can possibly be detected is
that your lens might have significant edge softness on the left
side. This is especially noticeable in the chair lift shots.
Compare the right and left halves of the frame. Objects on the left
seem signifcantly less sharp than those on the right.

Simon C
http://www.eyematter.com
elwood said:
Thanks for checking these out. This is from a 20D and 24-70 L. I
think they are a bit soft, but I wanted to get an opinion from the
people who know best. There was no sharpening. The chair lift pics
are the softest.

Thanks for your help with this! I want to ensure that the camera
and lens are performing to their best. I think it's too soft, but
maybe I need to do more post-processing. Or higher f-stop #?

The pics are at http://www.pbase.com/p1800volvo/20d_test
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Look soft to me as well, and from experiance with the 24-70L I had one that was like that also, the one I have now is better but still not perfect has horible red fringing at times and is a bit soft at 2.8.
Simon Courcha said:
Second, different people do indeed have different 'standards' when
it comes to sharpness. One person's 'tack sharp' may not be the
same as another's. In Amateur Photographer's (UK magazine) recent
review of the 20D the relative softness of the pictures was
mentioned, as well as the need to post process to really get the
best out of the images.

Many people who feel Canon DSLR images are soft come from using
compact digicams. These tend to do far more in camera sharpening.
The images often look sharper out of the camera and people that are
used to this find the transition difficult. Once you get used to
Canon DSLR output you'll find that many compact digicam images look
horribly oversharpened.

You can always change the camera's parameters to product sharper
and more contrasty images straight from the camera. Most people
seem to advise against this as in-camera processing is not as
effective as post-processing using Elements or similar programs.

It would be interesting to see some of your shots with exposure and
lens info. We could then see if you are indeed more picky than
average!

Simon C
http://www.eyematter.com
SGW said:
Simon Courcha said:
well to post processing
Click to expand...
Simon Courcha said:
Secondly, none of these image represent good tests, however let's
break down the issues:

Depth of Field

Referring to this shot:

http://www.pbase.com/p1800volvo/image/35195171

If using an aperture of f/2.8 and focusing at something about 80ft
away will mean that anything within 20ft of you will be outside the
area of acceptable sharpness.

Aperture

Wide open (at f/2.8) you lens might not perform as well as it would
at f/8.

Movement

To me the picture of the boy looks pretty good. However, at that
shutter speed some slight movement of the subject might lead to a
little blur.

I think you need to do some better tests in controlled conditions,
but from these shots the one issue that can possibly be detected is
that your lens might have significant edge softness on the left
side. This is especially noticeable in the chair lift shots.
Compare the right and left halves of the frame. Objects on the left
seem signifcantly less sharp than those on the right.

Simon C
http://www.eyematter.com
elwood said:
Thanks for checking these out. This is from a 20D and 24-70 L. I
think they are a bit soft, but I wanted to get an opinion from the
people who know best. There was no sharpening. The chair lift pics
are the softest.

Thanks for your help with this! I want to ensure that the camera
and lens are performing to their best. I think it's too soft, but
maybe I need to do more post-processing. Or higher f-stop #?

The pics are at http://www.pbase.com/p1800volvo/20d_test
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
--

I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.

Visit my:
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/wintermist
Website: http://www.avantphoto.com
and Sister site: http://www.starfire-graphics.net
 
I do not see an issue here that could be the camera. I see images that are just not exposed correctly and not post processed. Everyone of these images could be improved with a bit of post processing and improved photography skills. Will they ever look like images taken by a pro with a 1DS MkII using L lenses....probably not, but they could look "wow!"

The kindest way I can say this is: If you apply yourself to developing your photography skills and knowledge of the camera you will eventually see images that you will love.

If you have prior experience with other digital SLRs and were getting "tack sharp" images with them then send in your 20D for service.

Sorry, but each time I open a thread about the "soft" images of the 20D, I see strong evidence of user error and lack of basic skills.

I have yet to see images that show a severe issue with the camera or lens.

Perhaps it is expectations... I have 30 yrs experience with film SLRs and 3 years with digital SLRs. I know what can be expected. I have seen my own images improve with time. I can pull out a box of prints from my Canon F-1 (Top pro film camera) and see images from "yuck" to wow.

There is no camera out there that is going to produce a "tack sharp" perfectly exposed images out of the camera without some human skill....even if it is skill at pressing the shutter. I can spend 15 minutes teaching you about "squeezing" the shutter and how to eliminate camera shake, but it will take practice to improve.

--
http://www.pbase.com/richo/
'Life is a dance, Love is the music.'
 
elwood said:
Thanks for checking these out. This is from a 20D and 24-70 L. I
think they are a bit soft, but I wanted to get an opinion from the
people who know best. There was no sharpening. The chair lift pics
are the softest.

Thanks for your help with this! I want to ensure that the camera
and lens are performing to their best. I think it's too soft, but
maybe I need to do more post-processing. Or higher f-stop #?

The pics are at http://www.pbase.com/p1800volvo/20d_test
Click to expand...
--
To over-expose is human...
 
Using f2.8 does not mean less sharp. When shooting wide open the Depth of Field is much narrower...that is what it means.

JT
MrX said:
pmelsa said:
It does not readily appear that the lens is the problem. Your chair
lift pics are at f/2.8 which is really far far too wide for a
landscape type pic with a lot of depth to it.
Click to expand...
f2.8 is always going to be less sharp than stopping down a lil',
even with an L lens. Due to the higher resolution of the 20D it's
likey that a 1:1 crop will look slightly softer than say a 10D crop
simply because you're asking more of the lens.

The watch looks ok and it looks like you could sharpen it a lot
more without getting halos ...

--
------
AdrianX - BSc. MSc. Director.
http://www.AdrianJudd.com
Click to expand...
--
To over-expose is human...
 
Simon Courcha said:
First up, Canon DSLR images tend to be a little soft but respond
well to post processing.
Click to expand...
When shooting JPG, Canon DSLR images are supposed to be tack sharp.
Simon Courcha said:
Secondly, none of these image represent good tests, however let's
break down the issues:

Depth of Field

Referring to this shot:

http://www.pbase.com/p1800volvo/image/35195171

If using an aperture of f/2.8 and focusing at something about 80ft
away will mean that anything within 20ft of you will be outside the
area of acceptable sharpness.

Aperture

Wide open (at f/2.8) you lens might not perform as well as it would
at f/8.

Movement

To me the picture of the boy looks pretty good. However, at that
shutter speed some slight movement of the subject might lead to a
little blur.

I think you need to do some better tests in controlled conditions,
but from these shots the one issue that can possibly be detected is
that your lens might have significant edge softness on the left
side. This is especially noticeable in the chair lift shots.
Compare the right and left halves of the frame. Objects on the left
seem signifcantly less sharp than those on the right.

Simon C
http://www.eyematter.com
elwood said:
Thanks for checking these out. This is from a 20D and 24-70 L. I
think they are a bit soft, but I wanted to get an opinion from the
people who know best. There was no sharpening. The chair lift pics
are the softest.

Thanks for your help with this! I want to ensure that the camera
and lens are performing to their best. I think it's too soft, but
maybe I need to do more post-processing. Or higher f-stop #?

The pics are at http://www.pbase.com/p1800volvo/20d_test
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
To over-expose is human...
 
RichO said:
I do not see an issue here that could be the camera. I see images
that are just not exposed correctly and not post processed.
Everyone of these images could be improved with a bit of post
processing and improved photography skills. Will they ever look
like images taken by a pro with a 1DS MkII using L
lenses....probably not, but they could look "wow!"

The kindest way I can say this is: If you apply yourself to
developing your photography skills and knowledge of the camera you
will eventually see images that you will love.

If you have prior experience with other digital SLRs and were
getting "tack sharp" images with them then send in your 20D for
service.

Sorry, but each time I open a thread about the "soft" images of the
20D, I see strong evidence of user error and lack of basic skills.

I have yet to see images that show a severe issue with the camera
or lens.

Perhaps it is expectations... I have 30 yrs experience with film
SLRs and 3 years with digital SLRs. I know what can be expected.
I have seen my own images improve with time. I can pull out a box
of prints from my Canon F-1 (Top pro film camera) and see images
from "yuck" to wow.

There is no camera out there that is going to produce a "tack
sharp" perfectly exposed images out of the camera without some
human skill....even if it is skill at pressing the shutter. I can
spend 15 minutes teaching you about "squeezing" the shutter and how
to eliminate camera shake, but it will take practice to improve.

--
http://www.pbase.com/richo/
'Life is a dance, Love is the music.'
Click to expand...
--
To over-expose is human...
 
Shootiing wide open is always less sharp. Lenses are designed to be sharpest at around f5.6/f8 ...
J Thompson said:
JT
MrX said:
pmelsa said:
It does not readily appear that the lens is the problem. Your chair
lift pics are at f/2.8 which is really far far too wide for a
landscape type pic with a lot of depth to it.
Click to expand...
f2.8 is always going to be less sharp than stopping down a lil',
even with an L lens. Due to the higher resolution of the 20D it's
likey that a 1:1 crop will look slightly softer than say a 10D crop
simply because you're asking more of the lens.

The watch looks ok and it looks like you could sharpen it a lot
more without getting halos ...

--
------
AdrianX - BSc. MSc. Director.
http://www.AdrianJudd.com
Click to expand...
--
To over-expose is human...
Click to expand...
--
------
AdrianX - BSc. MSc. Director.
http://www.AdrianJudd.com
 
It was on center, and I focused on his chest or face. This is the only pic with the kit lens. It's a lot lighter to walk around with!
Hans von der Crone said:
in fact, it looks a little my 20D which has focussing problems.
kinda interested though, did you use center point AF and if so,
what did you focus on in the kid picture?
Click to expand...
--
For clogging information do a search for the' i-950 fix'
 
The pic of the boy was focused, center, on his face.

After a lot of thought on this, I shot 100 pics today at a higher ISO. I haven't had time to look at them yet.

So you think the softness of the 24-70 2.8 is acceptable at 2.8?

Thanks!
pmelsa said:
  • Peter
elwood said:
Thanks for checking these out. This is from a 20D and 24-70 L. I
think they are a bit soft, but I wanted to get an opinion from the
people who know best. There was no sharpening. The chair lift pics
are the softest.

Thanks for your help with this! I want to ensure that the camera
and lens are performing to their best. I think it's too soft, but
maybe I need to do more post-processing. Or higher f-stop #?

The pics are at http://www.pbase.com/p1800volvo/20d_test
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
For clogging information do a search for the' i-950 fix'
 
This is a good bit of info for those (like me) who are coming from a compact digicam. In my case the G3.
Simon Courcha said:
Many people who feel Canon DSLR images are soft come from using
compact digicams. These tend to do far more in camera sharpening.
The images often look sharper out of the camera and people that are
used to this find the transition difficult. Once you get used to
Canon DSLR output you'll find that many compact digicam images look
horribly oversharpened.
Click to expand...
 
You may have it. I haven't used my film SLR for quite a few years. As we say in IT, perhaps the problem is between the keyboard and the chair?
RichO said:
The kindest way I can say this is: If you apply yourself to
developing your photography skills and knowledge of the camera you
will eventually see images that you will love.
Click to expand...
 
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