D7D better than 20D??

Your humor is too sublime. It took me a minute to figure it out. ;)

He doesn't use that printer much, it's a color laser. He uses a B&W laser connected to a wifi print server in another room.
Messy teenagers...

ISO 800, 17-85 IS at 17mm f4, handheld at 1/6 second.

--
JusGene
'The easiest thing you can be ... is wrong!' -Me (7/29/1993)
'Statistically, people make mistakes 70% of the time' -Independent
Research Firm
'The more you know, the more you don't know' -Me (8/14/1987)
'Life is nothing, but for a bunch of words' -Me (11/4/1990)
 
William, if you did in fact read my previuos posts, then you would
have come across one that sums up my position regarding AS.

I wrote:

"I still think the benfits of AS in a DSLR (with good ISO perf. )
is being overstated. IMO the other features of the D7, build,
viewfinder, ergonomics, these are much more compelling."
Jack:

Fair enough, I did read that part. Having played with the 20D myself with the 24-70 f2.8L, I found it to be an exceptional camera combo, the equivalent of a Merdeces in the camera world in terms of performance, build quality, and design. It doesn't mean though that an unique Audi Quattro or BMW M5 can't generate as much excitement among their enthusiasts, don't you think? :-) Pitching the benefits of AS is like Audi telling people that their Quattro drive system will help you drive better, which for some people, it does. ;-)
Wil
 
I'm just as excited about it as you guys. I do enjoy using and reading about fine cameras.

It looks like some will have camera in hand in the next couple of weeks. Should be interesting...
William, if you did in fact read my previuos posts, then you would
have come across one that sums up my position regarding AS.

I wrote:

"I still think the benfits of AS in a DSLR (with good ISO perf. )
is being overstated. IMO the other features of the D7, build,
viewfinder, ergonomics, these are much more compelling."
Jack:
Fair enough, I did read that part. Having played with the 20D
myself with the 24-70 f2.8L, I found it to be an exceptional camera
combo, the equivalent of a Merdeces in the camera world in terms of
performance, build quality, and design. It doesn't mean though
that an unique Audi Quattro or BMW M5 can't generate as much
excitement among their enthusiasts, don't you think? :-) Pitching
the benefits of AS is like Audi telling people that their Quattro
drive system will help you drive better, which for some people, it
does. ;-)
Wil
 
Wil,

I have to say, I really like that Analogy...

Quattro (or high performance AWD) won't help 99% of drivers 99% of the time, who are mostly interested in getting from pt-A to pt-B on the road... For those drivers interested in performance driving, however (Active SCCA member, Solo-II driver here;)) It can be absolutely crucial...

Kinda like AS- might not help most photographers most of the time, but its spectacular for those few nuts out there who love it;)

And Jack - If you're out here on the west coast ever (northern CA), drop me an email and we can go do a little camera comparison...

San Fran is a spectacular photography destination:)

-Scott
 
I'm a 20D owner who hopes the 7D is all that and a basket of chips. Competition is good for all of us.

In the canon world we can get IS on our lenses by paying more. But I never bought an IS lens. The subjects I shoot move, as I'm a people shooter.

It doesn't help me if I had a tripod if I'm shooting low light and my subjects are moving. As such, I always opted to spend my money on getting faster lenses and I use a monopod to add "IS" without the inflexibility of a tripod.

However, if I had the choice of IS at the same price for my lenses, then i would have, of course, bought fast lenses with IS.

The 7D promises to do just that, make all your lenses stabilized, whether they be fast or slow. But just as IS is not all that helpful to me for what I shoot -- it's not necessarily the killer feature that some think it is -- for what I shoot.

Yet if the camera performs equally in all other areas, and then as IS to boot, then it's a no-brainer.

If it's a stop slower in ISO noise performance, then that kinda mutes the value of the IS to a shooter like myself.

Lee
 
That a number of Canon-forum types love combat. They seem to be a relatively tough crowd, spoiling for a fight, especially if you dare attempt to question any Canon product or feature.

It's a shame really, for those who just want to share information.
--
Thom--
 
She is so beautiful and precious Paulo. I hope that all is well
with her now.
That's an amazing shot considering the conditions under which you
had to shoot.
Thanks David, she is doing great now. She recovered from her stomach operation really quickly and now she's getting fat.
 
You see it a lot from Nikonians even sometimes from people with Olympus or Pentax. People can become amazingly defensive(or offensive ;) ) about their equipment. Perhaps if it appears that you are questioning thier system then you are questioning their choice and hence their intelligence.

Competition is good it keeps the feature list going up and the price going dwown. I think most cameras have their strong points and some are just better suited for some styles of photography.
That a number of Canon-forum types love combat. They seem to be a
relatively tough crowd, spoiling for a fight, especially if you
dare attempt to question any Canon product or feature.

It's a shame really, for those who just want to share information.
--
Thom--
 
I keep hearing the above sentiments thrown around. The D7D will be
better than the 20D, or so people say, but as I look over the spec
list, I fail to see why, so help me understand your perspective.
What am I missing?
Of course since the 7D is not available we can't really say which is better. And it also depends on the needs and style of the user, but I would say for me:

...
Better Viewfinder? Yes (I'll give KM the nod here based on
expectations)
I expect so also and this is a big reason why I chose the Maxxum 7 film camera over other brands.
In-Camera AS? Yes
This could be very important for the way I shoot (longer FL lenses) if all my existing lenses work well with in camera AS.
Better Image Quality? No. (At best, this is debatable)
Agree, will have to wait for producion units.
Better High ISO performance? Nope
Supposedly 3200 is very good on 7D, but Canon has record of excellent high ISo photos.
Bigger top Shutter speed? Nope
True, more important is sync speed +1 point for Canon.
Better Metering? Questionable.
7D will have a spot meter. I use spot metering quite often. Again it was a reason I have stuck with Minolta over mid range Canon film cameras. I tried and didn't like the partial metering of the film cameras, have not tried 20D's yet. I realize that post shot review of image can minimize some need for spot. I don't think it will for me. (I usually compose, meter, wait to shoot until exact time I want the shot. Sometimes can't repeat the shot.)
Better X-sync speed? Nope.
Agee, see above
Faster Continuous shooting? Nope.
Not a big issue for me
Larger Frame Buffer? Nope.
Not a big issue for me - although with digital I might start to burn "film" more and then this and the previous characteristic might be important.
More custom functions? Nope.
Don't know yet, I havent seen a list of custom functions for the 7D yet. But if anything like the film 7, Minolta likes to add custom functions.
Someone please tell me what I'm missing. Again, this isn't a dig
at the D7D. I'm just trying to understand the perspective of some
other photogs here....
Some of the features I really like about the film 7 (which seem to be on the 7D) are the 3 exposure memories. Thats where you can program 3 different camera setups into the exposure mode dial and recall all of them just by setting 1,2, or 3. I use this all the time.

Another is that Minolta doesn't usually cripple some modes. For example some Canon models (don't remember which, but they were deal breakers) will not allow the user to select different shooting/focus/something modes in certain exposure modes (P??). Not sure about the 20D.

I also like DMF and the AF/MF button. DMF allows the user to fine tune focus after Af is locked. The AF/MF button on the back allows the user to interrupt AF at anytime and manually (1) pre focus followed by AF, (2) post focus after AF or (3) interrupt focus and shoot. It also allows the user to engage Af when in MF. I think that canon USM lenses allow something same or similar, but on the film 7 I can do that with any lens. The 7D has these features, but I don't know yet if it will work with all lenses.

With a "D" lens, the film 7 has a electronic DOF scale on the back display. I find this very useful. (Not as useful as a detailed DOF scale on a manual focus, single focal length lens, but much more useful than the short or nonexistant DOF scales on AF lenses).

I also like the 14 segment metering display on the back which shows the distribution of brightness in the scene. For my style of shooting, I prefer to get the exposure correct before I shoot. It would be nice if KM had added a low resolution CCD to the in prism metering system and would show a realtime histogram, but maybe in a 9D.

When you press the AE lock on the 7 (and the 800si and 9), the camera also activates the spot meter and as you scan the scene, the exposure meter shows the difference between the locked exposure and the reading of the area currently in the spot meter. This makes it very easy to compare the CW or evaluative metering against the darkest or brightest part of the scene. I assume that KM will keep this in the 7D, although it remains to be seen.

The film 7 also records all the shot info for each exposure. That probably isn't as important on digital cameras because the data is stored with the shot.

User interface. I really like dial settings much more than press buttons and select types of interfaces, but that's just me.

Tom
--
--The artist formerly known as The Krakken
 
I keep hearing the above sentiments thrown around. The D7D will be
better than the 20D, or so people say, but as I look over the spec
list, I fail to see why, so help me understand your perspective.
What am I missing?
Of course since the 7D is not available we can't really say which
is better. And it also depends on the needs and style of the user,
but I would say for me:

...
Better Viewfinder? Yes (I'll give KM the nod here based on
expectations)
I expect so also and this is a big reason why I chose the Maxxum 7
film camera over other brands.
In-Camera AS? Yes
This could be very important for the way I shoot (longer FL lenses)
if all my existing lenses work well with in camera AS.
Better Image Quality? No. (At best, this is debatable)
Agree, will have to wait for producion units.
Better High ISO performance? Nope
Supposedly 3200 is very good on 7D, but Canon has record of
excellent high ISo photos.
Bigger top Shutter speed? Nope
True, more important is sync speed +1 point for Canon.
Better Metering? Questionable.
7D will have a spot meter. I use spot metering quite often. Again
it was a reason I have stuck with Minolta over mid range Canon film
cameras. I tried and didn't like the partial metering of the film
cameras, have not tried 20D's yet. I realize that post shot review
of image can minimize some need for spot. I don't think it will
for me. (I usually compose, meter, wait to shoot until exact time I
want the shot. Sometimes can't repeat the shot.)
Better X-sync speed? Nope.
Agee, see above
Faster Continuous shooting? Nope.
Not a big issue for me
Larger Frame Buffer? Nope.
Not a big issue for me - although with digital I might start to
burn "film" more and then this and the previous characteristic
might be important.
More custom functions? Nope.
Don't know yet, I havent seen a list of custom functions for the 7D
yet. But if anything like the film 7, Minolta likes to add custom
functions.
Someone please tell me what I'm missing. Again, this isn't a dig
at the D7D. I'm just trying to understand the perspective of some
other photogs here....
Some of the features I really like about the film 7 (which seem to
be on the 7D) are the 3 exposure memories. Thats where you can
program 3 different camera setups into the exposure mode dial and
recall all of them just by setting 1,2, or 3. I use this all the
time.

Another is that Minolta doesn't usually cripple some modes. For
example some Canon models (don't remember which, but they were deal
breakers) will not allow the user to select different
shooting/focus/something modes in certain exposure modes (P??).
Not sure about the 20D.

I also like DMF and the AF/MF button. DMF allows the user to fine
tune focus after Af is locked. The AF/MF button on the back allows
the user to interrupt AF at anytime and manually (1) pre focus
followed by AF, (2) post focus after AF or (3) interrupt focus and
shoot. It also allows the user to engage Af when in MF. I think
that canon USM lenses allow something same or similar, but on the
film 7 I can do that with any lens. The 7D has these features, but
I don't know yet if it will work with all lenses.

With a "D" lens, the film 7 has a electronic DOF scale on the back
display. I find this very useful. (Not as useful as a detailed
DOF scale on a manual focus, single focal length lens, but much
more useful than the short or nonexistant DOF scales on AF lenses).

I also like the 14 segment metering display on the back which shows
the distribution of brightness in the scene. For my style of
shooting, I prefer to get the exposure correct before I shoot. It
would be nice if KM had added a low resolution CCD to the in prism
metering system and would show a realtime histogram, but maybe in a
9D.

When you press the AE lock on the 7 (and the 800si and 9), the
camera also activates the spot meter and as you scan the scene, the
exposure meter shows the difference between the locked exposure and
the reading of the area currently in the spot meter. This makes it
very easy to compare the CW or evaluative metering against the
darkest or brightest part of the scene. I assume that KM will keep
this in the 7D, although it remains to be seen.

The film 7 also records all the shot info for each exposure. That
probably isn't as important on digital cameras because the data is
stored with the shot.

User interface. I really like dial settings much more than press
buttons and select types of interfaces, but that's just me.

Tom
--
--The artist formerly known as The Krakken
--
--The artist formerly known as The Krakken
 
also like DMF and the AF/MF button. DMF allows the user to fine tune focus after Af is locked. The AF/MF button on the back allows the user to interrupt AF at anytime and manually (1) pre focus followed by AF, (2) post focus after AF or (3) interrupt focus and shoot. It also allows the user to engage Af when in MF. I think that canon USM lenses allow something same or similar, but on the film 7 I can do that with any lens. The 7D has these features, but I don't know yet if it will work with all lenses.
I do wish that Canon offered spot metering with the 20D. But I can easily workaround using the histogram. The histogram IMO is the most accurate way of getting proper exposure, but if I had a spot meter, I could at least get close.

All Canon lenses except for two cheapies offer fulltime focus. No buttons to push, just grab the focus ring and focus.
 
JackRiley wrote:
[snip]
All Canon lenses except for two cheapies offer fulltime focus. No
buttons to push, just grab the focus ring and focus.
Yeah, I've always liked that feature (although I've never had a Canon) which I guess is a side benefit of focus motors built into the lenses. Our (Minoltians) consolation prize is that the latest camera bodies with faster and more powerful focus motors result in faster performance even from 1st gen. AF lenses. Pros and cons, for sure. Actually, that philosophy carries over into the area of image stabilization (in-lens for Canon, in-body for Minolta). Yeah, just call me Mr. Obvious. ;-)

Canon, Nikon, Olympus, Minolta, Pentax, etc all have their strong points so it's a matter of finding what matches your own requirements. In this respect, we're quite lucky to have the choices that we do.
Larry
 
You put it very well!

I have both experience with Minolta and Canon analog film bodies (especially Elan 7e vs. Maxxum 7), and I would mention the same points as you. I like the combination of AEL and spot metering on the Maxxum 7 a lot. I managed to test the Maxxum 7D on the Photokina and this feature is kept, but unfortunately the EV scale in the viewfinder reaches only fom -2 to +2 now...

At the moment I am trying to decide between the 20D and 7D. One strong point of Canon (for me) is the silent AF with USM lenses, on the other hand the AF motor in body (KM) might result in fewer AF problems (has to be seen).

I would like a stabilized Workaround lens. The 17-85 seems appealing, but obviously it has a CA problem at the wide end. With the 7D, one could use the Sigma 18-125 (if it is released soon for Minolta AF), but most probably AS function would result in dark corners (need for cropping) and AF is noisy...

It is so tough to arrive at a proper decision... ;-)

Best regards,
Wolfram
 
PS to my last post: The large LCD on the 7D is very, very appealing to me. After I saw it on the Photokina and used it for review, the small LCD of the 300D I can use at work (our lab cam) seems to me very small and dim...

And the viewfinder of the 7D is really great for a DSLR with crop factor. Brighter than 20D - my first impression, but stands to be corrected. (I looked through the 20D a few hours later at the canon stand, so no real side-by-side comparison. Also the attached lenses were different.)
 
You put it very well!

I have both experience with Minolta and Canon analog film bodies
(especially Elan 7e vs. Maxxum 7), and I would mention the same
points as you. I like the combination of AEL and spot metering on
the Maxxum 7 a lot. I managed to test the Maxxum 7D on the
Photokina and this feature is kept, but unfortunately the EV scale
in the viewfinder reaches only fom -2 to +2 now...

At the moment I am trying to decide between the 20D and 7D. One
strong point of Canon (for me) is the silent AF with USM lenses, on
the other hand the AF motor in body (KM) might result in fewer AF
problems (has to be seen).

I would like a stabilized Workaround lens. The 17-85 seems
appealing, but obviously it has a CA problem at the wide end. With
the 7D, one could use the Sigma 18-125 (if it is released soon for
Minolta AF), but most probably AS function would result in dark
corners (need for cropping) and AF is noisy...
Why dark corners with AS? Is this a lens designed for APS seize sensor?
It is so tough to arrive at a proper decision... ;-)

Best regards,
Wolfram
 
Yes, the 18-125 is designed for an APS sized sensor. As it is, it has some pretty good vignetting on my 20D, at wide angle.. Many have wondered whether the image cirle will be large enough to accomodate the shifting sensor. Personally, I think it will work.
You put it very well!

I have both experience with Minolta and Canon analog film bodies
(especially Elan 7e vs. Maxxum 7), and I would mention the same
points as you. I like the combination of AEL and spot metering on
the Maxxum 7 a lot. I managed to test the Maxxum 7D on the
Photokina and this feature is kept, but unfortunately the EV scale
in the viewfinder reaches only fom -2 to +2 now...

At the moment I am trying to decide between the 20D and 7D. One
strong point of Canon (for me) is the silent AF with USM lenses, on
the other hand the AF motor in body (KM) might result in fewer AF
problems (has to be seen).

I would like a stabilized Workaround lens. The 17-85 seems
appealing, but obviously it has a CA problem at the wide end. With
the 7D, one could use the Sigma 18-125 (if it is released soon for
Minolta AF), but most probably AS function would result in dark
corners (need for cropping) and AF is noisy...
Why dark corners with AS? Is this a lens designed for APS seize
sensor?
It is so tough to arrive at a proper decision... ;-)

Best regards,
Wolfram
 
Humm.

I have the Sigma 18-125 - I got a cracking deal in Gibralter. So, now I just need a camera to go with it. The UK is out of stock of the 20d (and the D7 isn't even released.....

I opted for the 20d (the Sigma ahas a canon mount) because of its suppsed fantastic focussing. If I am proved wrong, it will just cost me money....

Alan
You put it very well!

I have both experience with Minolta and Canon analog film bodies
(especially Elan 7e vs. Maxxum 7), and I would mention the same
points as you. I like the combination of AEL and spot metering on
the Maxxum 7 a lot. I managed to test the Maxxum 7D on the
Photokina and this feature is kept, but unfortunately the EV scale
in the viewfinder reaches only fom -2 to +2 now...

At the moment I am trying to decide between the 20D and 7D. One
strong point of Canon (for me) is the silent AF with USM lenses, on
the other hand the AF motor in body (KM) might result in fewer AF
problems (has to be seen).

I would like a stabilized Workaround lens. The 17-85 seems
appealing, but obviously it has a CA problem at the wide end. With
the 7D, one could use the Sigma 18-125 (if it is released soon for
Minolta AF), but most probably AS function would result in dark
corners (need for cropping) and AF is noisy...
Why dark corners with AS? Is this a lens designed for APS seize
sensor?
It is so tough to arrive at a proper decision... ;-)

Best regards,
Wolfram
 

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