Reading mode: Light Dark

Sony DSLR next year?

Go to last post
Zal. said:
If it will use an EVF, there has to be a signficant advance in EVF
resolution--even well above the 900pixels of the Minolta A2. I've
used an A2, and while the EVF is decent (definatley the best on the
market), it is still WAY WAY inferior to an optical viewfinder.
Click to expand...
I see this as a long-term venture, and reckon in the first iteration Sony and Panasonic will just be trying to do the best EVF yet, rather than match an optical viewer.
Zal. said:
The second issue is the lens mount. I see 2 possibilities:
1. Proprietary (typical Sony fashion), with the lenses being built
by Zeiss.
or, more likely:
2. Sony throws their hat into the 4/3 ring, using a Sony-built 4/3
sensor and the 4/3 mount, with Zeiss also throwing their hat in the
ring by releasing Ziess 4/3 lenses.
Click to expand...
Yeah, initially in my last post I was thinking that Sony were going to go with the 4/3rds format, as it would be a lot easier and would explain how Oly knew their plans, but Sony is so proprietory that maybe not.

Perhaps they are even talking about a fixed lens evolution of the 828 as their first offering, although a DSLR is more likely I feel.

What I really expect from Sony is a camera which is similar to the 4/3rds, but not compatible with it, and released together with perhaps 3 Zeiss-designed lenses.
Zal. said:
Next year will be interesting!
Click to expand...
--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment
 
David Martin said:
I see this as a long-term venture, and reckon in the first
iteration Sony and Panasonic will just be trying to do the best EVF
yet, rather than match an optical viewer.
Click to expand...
Exactly.

It's too easy to say that an EVF is inferior to an OVF. While an OVF can have some advantages in some ways, they usually show only a partial field of view whereas an EVF shows exactly what is going to be recorded. While an EVF has limited resolution, they can be designed with an assisting enlargement feature to help with focusing. No OVF can give you that.

Each has its advantages and disadvantages.
Member said:
Yeah, initially in my last post I was thinking that Sony were going
to go with the 4/3rds format, as it would be a lot easier and would
explain how Oly knew their plans, but Sony is so proprietory that
maybe not.
Click to expand...
While I can see Sony going with someone's existing lenses, I just don't know that I see it being the 4/3rd setup. They've never hinted at joining the consortium of manufacturers who are onboard with that one. It's possible that they may do their own thing (with Carl Zeiss or some other smaller OEM) making the lenses for them. It wouldn't be such a stretch. Sony has been in the lens game for a long time, just not the INTERCHANGEABLE lens game.
Member said:
Perhaps they are even talking about a fixed lens evolution of the
828 as their first offering, although a DSLR is more likely I feel.
Click to expand...
There are two things at work here:
1) interchangeable lenses or non-interchangeable lenses
2) a dSLR-like format or a non-dSLR format

By dSLR I am referring specifically to the design of having a mirror swinging up and out of the way from the sensor for recording the images, not the body styling alone

--
Ulysses
http://www.ulyssesphotography.com
 
Ulysses said:
David Martin said:
I see this as a long-term venture, and reckon in the first
iteration Sony and Panasonic will just be trying to do the best EVF
yet, rather than match an optical viewer.
Click to expand...
Exactly.

It's too easy to say that an EVF is inferior to an OVF. While an
OVF can have some advantages in some ways, they usually show only a
partial field of view whereas an EVF shows exactly what is going to
be recorded. While an EVF has limited resolution, they can be
designed with an assisting enlargement feature to help with
focusing. No OVF can give you that.

Each has its advantages and disadvantages.
Member said:
Yeah, initially in my last post I was thinking that Sony were going
to go with the 4/3rds format, as it would be a lot easier and would
explain how Oly knew their plans, but Sony is so proprietory that
maybe not.
Click to expand...
While I can see Sony going with someone's existing lenses, I just
don't know that I see it being the 4/3rd setup. They've never
hinted at joining the consortium of manufacturers who are onboard
with that one. It's possible that they may do their own thing (with
Carl Zeiss or some other smaller OEM) making the lenses for them.
It wouldn't be such a stretch. Sony has been in the lens game for a
long time, just not the INTERCHANGEABLE lens game.
Member said:
Perhaps they are even talking about a fixed lens evolution of the
828 as their first offering, although a DSLR is more likely I feel.
Click to expand...
There are two things at work here:
1) interchangeable lenses or non-interchangeable lenses
2) a dSLR-like format or a non-dSLR format

By dSLR I am referring specifically to the design of having a
mirror swinging up and out of the way from the sensor for recording
the images, not the body styling alone
Click to expand...
Well, according to Oly it will not use a mirror, so if we give any credence to the Oly statement that presumably rules that out.

Although strictly speaking a DSLR should have both a mirror and interchangeable lenses, I don't find it out of the question that the term may be being used loosely, and that Sony might have gone to a rather larger sensor to reduce noise issues on the 2/3rds sensor, whilst keeping a fixed lens as some on this forum have advocated.

I don't think it very likely, however,as getting any reasonable zoom on sucha camera would be pretty bulky and impracticable.

What does seem clear is that Sony have now decided that the time has come for DSLR's, as they are also pretty gung-ho about the new sensor for the Nikon, so i expect quite a lot of action from them over the next 18months.
Member said:
--
Ulysses
http://www.ulyssesphotography.com
Click to expand...
--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment
 
David Martin said:
I don't find it out of the question that
the term may be being used loosely
Click to expand...
You know how it is. While I'm not a real stickler on the definition of this one, just figuring out whether people are talking about the same thing is also important. For example, to get EVF capability, they're going to have to discard with the strict dSLR definition, although the end result is going to be the same --- seeing in the viewfinder exactly what the lens sees.
Member said:
What does seem clear is that Sony have now decided that the time
has come for DSLR's
Click to expand...
Yes. I'm actually hoping PMA 2005 will be the time.

--
Ulysses
http://www.ulyssesphotography.com
 
Well, Matthew, it looks like you are going to get pretty much what you've wanted for a long time now - I don't see it being a mirror, in fact the Oly guy seems to specifically rule that out, but you should be good to go on the live preview.

The bit I would worry about is the AF being slow compared to a muirror-based DSLR, but that is not going to worry you in your use, and it seems likely that you will get a high megapixel-density sensor, so if it is possible to take images fairly fast then you should get great panos.
Matthew Cromer said:
I'd prefer a 10+ megapixel, 4/3 compatible solution with live LCD
and a mirror, along with some nice Zeiss zooms and primes.

I'd trade the mirror for an EFV if I had to to keep the live LCD,
but the mirror based viewfinder is probably better for now.

If it doesn't have a live LCD, I'm not interested.

--
my favorite work:
http://www.pbase.com/sdaconsulting/featured_art&page=1
Click to expand...
--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment
 
I find this to be a very interesting consideration, and I have been looking at it from a company profit angle for several months now. Sony is manking the D2X's sensor already, so it is certainly possible that Sony could get the Nikon lens mount in exchange. Sony also talks in their share holder's report about continuing CMOS research, as well as how the RGB+E Filter is going to be kept in house and used in the future to differentiate Sony cameras from the competition in "all segments". And the D2X sensor has 4 channel outputs which certainly looks tailor made for the RGB+E filter, not to mention 4 channels is the most cost effective way to make a sensor that is both higher resolution than the 828 and faster too. Sony is known for their shall we say modification of the way we look at various products (Like the refrigeration in some new computer models, the wireless wall mounted computers, the nightshot feature, and other "high tech" solutions) therefor I feel a mirror would be too old fasioned for Sony. Zeiss also talks about ongoing research and developement in their partnership with Sony, and so I think what I will call a new generation dSLR is a very real possibility. And here is a quick history that I think points the way.

5 or 10 years ago Sony could not get into the pro market, it was too dominated by Cannon, Nikon, et al. Not to mention the pro market is small both with few pros out there, as well as many pros sticking with the same camera for many years. Therefor Sony built some of the best compact cameras with good durability and high user ratings. Throw in interesting features like nightshot, and people in the P&S catagory take notice. Over the years, Sony has added a couple more professional features, better lens here, more controls there, a histogram, more resolution, finally the bigger black body and fast lens. Each time the cameras have been very user friendly and fun to use, and as a result, plenty of customers have upgraded often as they become more interested in taking their pictures to that next level. Sony has been growing it's own future Pros. This is brilliant market strategy, if you cannot fit into a market that is already saturated and small to begin with, then grow your own.

Zoom up to the last year, and the 828. The most pro-type features yet, professional look and handling charicteristics and resolution, yet still with the nifty gadets like the swivel body and nightshot, and you have a serious amature, semi-pro level product that has grown along side the skills of the main customer base. But two things become apparent:

First, the F-series, L-body design is reaching its limit. With the noise and PF of the 828 (and no, it isn't THAT significant, but certainly worse than the previous generation) more pixels cannot resonably be added to the 2/3. Also, plenty of 828 users, and even a lot of the 7*7 users have grown in skill more quickly, and are jumping off the growth chart over to the 300D, 20D and others. Some are finding what they are looking for while plenty of others are cetainly finding the learning curve a little steep or are missing the live histogram and other "prosumer" features that the dSRL's lack. Therefor, following Sony's apparent market strategy, it finally makes sense for them to come up with a suedo dSLR. It will certainly use their new CMOS, have at least 12MP and the RGB+E output through 4 separate channels. You can bet it will be at least very close to the Cannon and Nikons in terms of speed. Zeiss will almost certainly make the lenses, though there is a slim chance of using Nikon lenses too. And Sony will take more time to make sure there is no controversy like there was over the 828, that is why there is nothing now, and won't be untill at least February, though it could be a full year. But it will definitely be known by way of a leak within the next 10 months for sure.
 
There are some good points there, and I think you are correct on timing issues.

Where I would differ from what you are saying is that I don't think Sony will go to full APS -sized sensor

The biggest advantage of the EVF as well as the live preview is that it makes it easier to minaturise, so I reckon they wil use something similar to the 4/3rds system.

If this guess is correctm they might want to keep the pixel count under 12MP, but would presumably want to put in more than the 828 for marketing reasons.
My guess is that they will go for around 10DMP.

Of course, if they want to economise on sensor development costs they might use a full APS-size sensor and use the 12MP they have developed for Nikon, as you say.
HUM469 said:
I find this to be a very interesting consideration, and I have been
looking at it from a company profit angle for several months now.
Sony is manking the D2X's sensor already, so it is certainly
possible that Sony could get the Nikon lens mount in exchange.
Sony also talks in their share holder's report about continuing
CMOS research, as well as how the RGB+E Filter is going to be kept
in house and used in the future to differentiate Sony cameras from
the competition in "all segments". And the D2X sensor has 4
channel outputs which certainly looks tailor made for the RGB+E
filter, not to mention 4 channels is the most cost effective way to
make a sensor that is both higher resolution than the 828 and
faster too. Sony is known for their shall we say modification of
the way we look at various products (Like the refrigeration in some
new computer models, the wireless wall mounted computers, the
nightshot feature, and other "high tech" solutions) therefor I feel
a mirror would be too old fasioned for Sony. Zeiss also talks
about ongoing research and developement in their partnership with
Sony, and so I think what I will call a new generation dSLR is a
very real possibility. And here is a quick history that I think
points the way.

5 or 10 years ago Sony could not get into the pro market, it was
too dominated by Cannon, Nikon, et al. Not to mention the pro
market is small both with few pros out there, as well as many pros
sticking with the same camera for many years. Therefor Sony built
some of the best compact cameras with good durability and high user
ratings. Throw in interesting features like nightshot, and people
in the P&S catagory take notice. Over the years, Sony has added a
couple more professional features, better lens here, more controls
there, a histogram, more resolution, finally the bigger black body
and fast lens. Each time the cameras have been very user friendly
and fun to use, and as a result, plenty of customers have upgraded
often as they become more interested in taking their pictures to
that next level. Sony has been growing it's own future Pros. This
is brilliant market strategy, if you cannot fit into a market that
is already saturated and small to begin with, then grow your own.

Zoom up to the last year, and the 828. The most pro-type features
yet, professional look and handling charicteristics and resolution,
yet still with the nifty gadets like the swivel body and nightshot,
and you have a serious amature, semi-pro level product that has
grown along side the skills of the main customer base. But two
things become apparent:
First, the F-series, L-body design is reaching its limit. With the
noise and PF of the 828 (and no, it isn't THAT significant, but
certainly worse than the previous generation) more pixels cannot
resonably be added to the 2/3. Also, plenty of 828 users, and even
a lot of the 7*7 users have grown in skill more quickly, and are
jumping off the growth chart over to the 300D, 20D and others.
Some are finding what they are looking for while plenty of others
are cetainly finding the learning curve a little steep or are
missing the live histogram and other "prosumer" features that the
dSRL's lack. Therefor, following Sony's apparent market strategy,
it finally makes sense for them to come up with a suedo dSLR. It
will certainly use their new CMOS, have at least 12MP and the RGB+E
output through 4 separate channels. You can bet it will be at
least very close to the Cannon and Nikons in terms of speed. Zeiss
will almost certainly make the lenses, though there is a slim
chance of using Nikon lenses too. And Sony will take more time to
make sure there is no controversy like there was over the 828, that
is why there is nothing now, and won't be untill at least February,
though it could be a full year. But it will definitely be known by
way of a leak within the next 10 months for sure.
Click to expand...
--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment
 
True there, I am not entirely sure they will use the full size either. But somewhere on the web I read an indepth technical report on it, and it sounded to me like it would be easily scalable in both size and pixel count. Something about the 12 MP strikes me as deja vue a little perhapse? That is why I don't think we will know about the new camera for several months. The ongoing research they refer to is probably either work to reduce the photosites and in turn the overall sensor size, or optimizing cutting pixels to reduce the size while keeping the same photosite size. Perhapse the research is comparing both these options. I just know every time I have seen controversy about quality in the past, Sony turns around with something that blows that consideration completely out of the water. Therefor smaller or not, I would not hesitate to bet that noise and PF will not even be mentioned next time around. (Not saying it will be totally absent as that is near impossible, but I am sure that is what they are focused on this time around)
 
... and WHAT have you done with Ulysses??? :-)

Bahahahahahahahahahah!!©

Complete agreement on just about all counts, Hummer. It's what I've been saying now for the past couple of years! Sony bears watching in this area. They're not simply going to follow the lead of everyone else. They're never the first out the door either. But Sony's typical style is to make a new nitch for themselves, redefining the way people will use their devices. It's a good nitch to be in.

I've also been theorizing for some time now that something is going on between Sony and Nikon. No one knows exactly what... but... let's see what happens here. Just a hunch.

Pseudo-DSLR. Hahahahah!! I love it.

The pSLR !! :-)

Good post, Hummer.

--
Ulysses
http://www.ulyssesphotography.com
 
Well I am glad you like it, and we are of a simila mond Ulysses. I have been watching closely, and doing some practice/learning exersize on a borrowed 828, and for my shooting I like it. I will probably be buying my own here in the next week or so (awaiting a special that is coming up in a Phoenix store according to inside sources).

As to Pseudo-dSLR, I think a lot of serious amatures and semi-pros who have grown up so to speak on Sony are ready for interchangeable lenses. I think the 828 was an expieriment into whether the market would handle the SLR like size and feature set, and it proved that the Sony customer base was. I think it will have interchangeable lenses. I think it will have a fast RAW mode, and I think it will have pretty much the same controls as a 20D or the like (But with the typical Sony interface) I do not think the next model will meet the pureists idea of a dSLR though in that I cannot imagine it having an optical viewfinder, and I think I might even be disappointed if it did. True, there are advantages to optical, but with EVF advantages of no mirror slap, fewer moving parts, the magnification advantage, not to mention Sony's massive work in screen resolution, they will never go optical, they will just continue to minimize the disadvantages to EVF. Therefor, Psuedo-dSLR is the only term I could come up with that would make the majority happy. Let it be known though, I do not mean it to suggest that the Sony approach will be flawed, in fact I find it to be exciting if in fact I am on the right track. I think it will be a very good tool, will change the way things are done in the photography world, and will all be for the better. I am getting my own 828 now instead of waiting because I like what I am doing, and I don't want any other lenses for myself and my backpacking travels.
Ulysses said:
... and WHAT have you done with Ulysses??? :-)

Bahahahahahahahahahah!!©

Complete agreement on just about all counts, Hummer. It's what I've
been saying now for the past couple of years! Sony bears watching
in this area. They're not simply going to follow the lead of
everyone else. They're never the first out the door either. But
Sony's typical style is to make a new nitch for themselves,
redefining the way people will use their devices. It's a good nitch
to be in.

I've also been theorizing for some time now that something is
going on between Sony and Nikon. No one knows exactly what...
but... let's see what happens here. Just a hunch.

Pseudo-DSLR. Hahahahah!! I love it.

The pSLR !! :-)

Good post, Hummer.

--
Ulysses
http://www.ulyssesphotography.com
Click to expand...
 
Hum, my man... Only time will tell. But I suspect we are likely more right than we even realize.

All we have to do to theorize about the future is look back into the past to see what Sony has done up to this point. And that's why I like so many of the ideas we've talked about. I expect that at least on the large scale, if not the specifics, we're very close.

Each generation of camera is an experiment, as well as a stepping stone to what is to come for the next year or so. The F828 is definitely different in its outlook for where it points for the future.

I say: Sony, bring it on! Your market is ready. :-)

--
Ulysses
http://www.ulyssesphotography.com
 
Give me the F828 in a larger body (1.6x FoV sensor) and Canon lenses :-P and swivel body, EVF 2MP (30 fps) and live preview on the LCD as well [drewl] that would make me the happiest man in the world (oh and, 8 MP will do, as long as it has the 20D noise characteristics or better LOL)

Sorry for dreaming, it would be interesting to see if and what Sony will bring to the SLR world!
Cheers
--
  • Michiel de Brieder -


See profile for equipment!
http://www.pbase.com/giel/portfolio
Be aware of the optics of life!
 
Here's another interesting idea. What if Sony retains the L-body/swivel setup, and has a single element afocal mini-lens over the sensor to keep it sealed dust free, with focal lenses that screw over this stubby little setup? Now that would be particularly interesting to me! :-)
 
I have two systems:
Nikon D100 with all sort of lenses
Sony F828

I like my Nikon becasue of its ability at the extremes - macro and telephoto. But it is heavy. I have a backpack to carry everything. I like my Sony because it is all in one and I don't have to worry about changing lenses. Changing lenses slows down shooting and allows dust to get to the CMOS. Go to the Nikon forum and there is a lot of discussion about how to clean the sensor. Never have to worry about that with Sony.

I would be very happy with the next Fony 8*8 if it had a little more wide angle and especially telephoto. Add in some anti-shake techology and I am good to go.

Cliff
 
It took me a moment to visualize what you were describing, but now that I have the vision in my head, it sounds pretty cool. :)
HUM469 said:
Here's another interesting idea. What if Sony retains the
L-body/swivel setup, and has a single element afocal mini-lens over
the sensor to keep it sealed dust free, with focal lenses that
screw over this stubby little setup? Now that would be
particularly interesting to me! :-)
Click to expand...
--
Ulysses
http://www.ulyssesphotography.com
 
Cliff Kline said:
I would be very happy with the next Fony 8*8 if it had a little
more wide angle and especially telephoto. Add in some anti-shake
techology and I am good to go.
Click to expand...
Adding to both the wide and tele ends of a single lens adds a ton of cost and reduces overall quality (lots of geometric distortion, more CA/PF, sharpness, etc). That's why people love interchangeable lenses so much, you can get all the range you want, but sacrifice much less quality.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Keyboard shortcuts

f
Forum
m
My threads
Mobile site
About
Editorial content
Cameras & Lenses
Community
All content, design, and layout are Copyright © 1998–2025 Digital Photography Review All Rights Reserved.
Reproduction in whole or part in any form or medium without specific written permission is prohibited.
When you use DPReview links to buy products, the site may earn a commission.
©GPS Media - Guides, Products, Services.
Back
Top