D1X Metering from preflash question

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I have had lots of problems with consistent flash use w/ the SB-80DX and my camera. I have called Nikon, read all the posts on it and it still just doesn't work as expected except in manual mode.

Finally I put my flash on a Kodak 14N and shot the same scene with both 3d matrix metering and standard TTL metering with no comp dialed on the flash. It worked perfectly. Then I put the flash back on my camera and shot the same scene, same fstop, focal length, lense etc and the image was totally blown out with flash.

My question for anyone who may know is: Does the camera use the same metering method or part of the camera to meter the pre-flash as it does to meter without flash? I don't seem to have the inconsistent metering problems without flash.

I know I need to eventually send the camera/flash back to Nikon for repair AGAIN but anyone have ideas? Thanks.
Chip
http://www.pbase.com/chip_g

chip1 said:

--
I have had lots of problems with consistent flash use w/ the
SB-80DX and my camera. I have called Nikon, read all the posts on
it and it still just doesn't work as expected except in manual mode.

Finally I put my flash on a Kodak 14N and shot the same scene with
both 3d matrix metering and standard TTL metering with no comp
dialed on the flash. It worked perfectly. Then I put the flash
back on my camera and shot the same scene, same fstop, focal
length, lense etc and the image was totally blown out with flash.

My question for anyone who may know is: Does the camera use the
same metering method or part of the camera to meter the pre-flash
as it does to meter without flash? I don't seem to have the
inconsistent metering problems without flash.

I know I need to eventually send the camera/flash back to Nikon for
repair AGAIN but anyone have ideas? Thanks.
Chip
http://www.pbase.com/chip_g

Click to expand...

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Chip
http://www.pbase.com/chip_g

Best advice is to send the camera back. They will look everything over when doing so and therefore becomes the best fix of all. My thinking is that if you spend $3500 to $5000 on a unit (depending on when you purchased it?), what is a few hundred dollars every couple of years for factory maintenance if nothing else?

chip1 said:

--
I have had lots of problems with consistent flash use w/ the
SB-80DX and my camera. I have called Nikon, read all the posts on
it and it still just doesn't work as expected except in manual mode.

Finally I put my flash on a Kodak 14N and shot the same scene with
both 3d matrix metering and standard TTL metering with no comp
dialed on the flash. It worked perfectly. Then I put the flash
back on my camera and shot the same scene, same fstop, focal
length, lense etc and the image was totally blown out with flash.

My question for anyone who may know is: Does the camera use the
same metering method or part of the camera to meter the pre-flash
as it does to meter without flash? I don't seem to have the
inconsistent metering problems without flash.

I know I need to eventually send the camera/flash back to Nikon for
repair AGAIN but anyone have ideas? Thanks.
Chip
http://www.pbase.com/chip_g

Click to expand...

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Mel

Mel said:

chip1 said:

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Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Thanks for the post Mel. It would be easier to swallow if I had not had my camera in Torrence 3 times since Spring. They have looked everything over all 3 times supposedly. They have replaced half of the cameras parts it seems but to their credit did not charge for a lot of it. It still aint right.

Just trying to find a little bit about how the metering system works... on a photo forum.
Chip
http://www.pbase.com/chip_g

Don't send your camera in... I just haven't met a single person who got reliable consistent decent flash exposure with the D1x + SB-80 (and no, SB-800 isn't much better).

100% of the people I talked to had the same reaction as you:
1. I must be doing soemthing wrong
2. The camera must be broken.

Now that tells a story, doesn't it? D1x with flash sucks (a great camera on all other aspects!)
--
p.carly
---
'capturing today tomorrow's memories'

http://www.newwavephotos.com

once you do that, it will be easier for the members to help

chip1 said:

--
I have had lots of problems with consistent flash use w/ the
SB-80DX and my camera. I have called Nikon, read all the posts on
it and it still just doesn't work as expected except in manual mode.

Finally I put my flash on a Kodak 14N and shot the same scene with
both 3d matrix metering and standard TTL metering with no comp
dialed on the flash. It worked perfectly. Then I put the flash
back on my camera and shot the same scene, same fstop, focal
length, lense etc and the image was totally blown out with flash.

My question for anyone who may know is: Does the camera use the
same metering method or part of the camera to meter the pre-flash
as it does to meter without flash? I don't seem to have the
inconsistent metering problems without flash.

I know I need to eventually send the camera/flash back to Nikon for
repair AGAIN but anyone have ideas? Thanks.
Chip
http://www.pbase.com/chip_g

Click to expand...

True, The reason they brought out the sb80dx is to provide 3stops of compensation, because it is so bad. I only use A on my sb28dx, TTL is seemingly random in its exposures. A works fine. I too sent mine in 3 times and finally gave up. I wish they had of said that it isnt meant to work the first time

a.

chip1 said:

--
I have had lots of problems with consistent flash use w/ the
SB-80DX and my camera. I have called Nikon, read all the posts on
it and it still just doesn't work as expected except in manual mode.

Finally I put my flash on a Kodak 14N and shot the same scene with
both 3d matrix metering and standard TTL metering with no comp
dialed on the flash. It worked perfectly. Then I put the flash
back on my camera and shot the same scene, same fstop, focal
length, lense etc and the image was totally blown out with flash.

My question for anyone who may know is: Does the camera use the
same metering method or part of the camera to meter the pre-flash
as it does to meter without flash? I don't seem to have the
inconsistent metering problems without flash.

I know I need to eventually send the camera/flash back to Nikon for
repair AGAIN but anyone have ideas? Thanks.
Chip
http://www.pbase.com/chip_g

Click to expand...

philippe carly said:

Don't send your camera in... I just haven't met a single person who
got reliable consistent decent flash exposure with the D1x + SB-80
(and no, SB-800 isn't much better).

100% of the people I talked to had the same reaction as you:
1. I must be doing soemthing wrong
2. The camera must be broken.

Now that tells a story, doesn't it? D1x with flash sucks (a great
camera on all other aspects!)
--
p.carly
---
'capturing today tomorrow's memories'

http://www.newwavephotos.com

Click to expand...

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Phillipe,

Thanks for the advise. You know, folks like Thom H and other well respected professionals seem to believe it is so easy when following their advise. -1.7 for people, -1.x for things bla...bla...bla. I agree the flash camera combo is nearly unuseable. I was kinda hoping there was something wrong and there still might be but the more I hear from you folks, the more I believe this is one of the major screwups that will never be fixed.

And while I am at it, I have heard a lot of comparisions to Canon not being any better in a lot of areas, ie; service, sensor noise etc..well...I don't compare my camera to the other products. For $4000 it should be useable and consistent regardless of what the competition is. And yes I am doing it right.

That may well be the problem. There is no better mouse trap so why make a product that is head and shoulders above the rest. We will buy it anyway and complain regardless. sheesh! Could you imagine a forum for say automobiles and people were complaining that their car wouldn't start half the time. It should start. The manual says so. The camera should meter with a flash, the manual says so.

At this point being I am on first name basis with most of Nikon Torrence, I am sending it in and I will keep sending it in until it does what the manual, advertisements and Nikon's web page says it is supposed to do. I will let you know if interested.

Rant off.

Chip
http://www.pbase.com/chip_g

I made the following (very) interesting test:

I placed a white styrofoam board against the wall, aimed my camera (on a tripod) and pinned a grey Kodak card and a black cardboard piece so that
top center AF/spot sensor measured exclusively the white styrofoam,
middle center AF/spot sensor measured exclusively the Kodak grey card,
bootom center AF/spot sensor measured exclusively the black card.

(please excuse the variations in WB, I did this test in a hurry and didn't feel like redoing them, I was mixing light, flash and flash+ correction filter )

I set up the camera in A(perture priority mode), f4, spot metering.

First I used ambiant light (modelling light from a studio strobe with large diffuser) and took three successive photos using top, middle and bottom sensors as expected the first photo ws underexposed, the second properly exposed and the third overexposed:

with D1x:







same with D2h







well, that was to be expected.
Now the weird part:

I tried the same thing with D1x+SB-80 and D1x+SB-800, both in D-TTL and AA mode, using exclusively the flash light (turned off the modelling light of the strobe) and all exposures came out almost identical

D1x + SB-80 D-TTL (f4, 1/60 s)







D1x + SB-80 AA (f4, 1/60 s)







D1x + SB-800 D-TTL (f4, 1/60 s)







D1x + SB-800 AA (f4, 1/60 s)







same thing with D2h (used SB-800 only)
D2h + SB-800 TTL (f4, 1/60 s)







D2h + SB-800 AA (f4, 1/60 s)







By setting the flash mode to slow sync, was I able to get the exposure I expected...
D2h + SB-800 TTL f4 + slow sync







D2h + SB-800 AA f4 + slow sync







Now that's not exactly how I expected the flash metering to work....
Did you expect that? I am missing something??????

--
p.carly
---
'capturing today tomorrow's memories'

http://www.newwavephotos.com

I have this combo d1x and flash and it's never worked. I use it on manual. I gave up a long time ago.
kevin

I have 2 D1x cameras that are used almost exclusively for wedding work. I don't think the issue is with the sb80dx it's the way that the D1x determines flash requirement. It just uses the monitor preflash and doesn't actually read anything off of the CCD. The flash inaccuracy isn't limited to the sb80dx I also use quantuam x2d flashes and have exactly the same issues with both cameras. Just from my own experiece I've found that D-TTL to be almost 100% useless. I seem to be able to get more consistant results using AA modes on both flashes, but I still have to play with flash compensation alot.

Craig Hermle

chip1 said:

--
I have had lots of problems with consistent flash use w/ the
SB-80DX and my camera. I have called Nikon, read all the posts on
it and it still just doesn't work as expected except in manual mode.

Finally I put my flash on a Kodak 14N and shot the same scene with
both 3d matrix metering and standard TTL metering with no comp
dialed on the flash. It worked perfectly. Then I put the flash
back on my camera and shot the same scene, same fstop, focal
length, lense etc and the image was totally blown out with flash.

My question for anyone who may know is: Does the camera use the
same metering method or part of the camera to meter the pre-flash
as it does to meter without flash? I don't seem to have the
inconsistent metering problems without flash.

I know I need to eventually send the camera/flash back to Nikon for
repair AGAIN but anyone have ideas? Thanks.
Chip
http://www.pbase.com/chip_g

Click to expand...

I concur with Craig. For the style of shooting I do (Aperture priority or Shutter priority, cneter weighted with the subject filling most of the weighted zone, subjects at 15-30 feet away, lighting varying by 5 stops from shot to shot at times, and about 1-2 seconds to grab the shot) this camera has NEVER been able to ge it right (or repeat itself on 2 nearly identical shots). I have an SB28DX, and have fill flash balance variations of up to 2 stops when using D-TTL or TTL.

The interesting thing is it varies by ISO selection and ambient light... if I have 125 dialled in, it behaves one way... some scenes are blown out horribly, while others look fine, whereas if I have 400 dialed in, I get a totally different set of curves. At times it has been easier for me to dial the ISO and shoot that way rather than throw away 70% of the frames because the fill flash makes it look like garbage.

There is one other interesting thing I have noted lately... if I am shooting in manual (camera, not flash mode), using D-TTL or TTL, I get most of the shots to come out as usable, without having to resort to the ISO setting trick. I don't know why. Does this work on anyone else's?

I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade here... the D1X is EXCELLENT at AMBIENT shots, however in my experience the balanced fill flash performance of the D1X (at least my sample of 1 camera) is a joke for shooting candids. I can grab my F4 and SB24, shoot 1 frame, and NAIL IT. I don't even have to guess... I KNOW it got it. With the D1X, I shoot OVER and OVER and OVER to get a reasonable ratio of fill to ambient.

I may get around to doing Auto on the flash, but my subjects are well outside of 15 ft... I don't think the flash will average correctly on 3-5% of its FOV and give me the exposure I need based on the subject.

I'm waiting for the D2X to prove it's worth at fill flash, then I'll get one. Until then, I am lumbering along with the miserable performance of the D1X's fill flash function (in my opinion and my style of shooting, that is, your mileage may vary ;-)

Craig Hermle said:

I have 2 D1x cameras that are used almost exclusively for wedding
work. I don't think the issue is with the sb80dx it's the way that
the D1x determines flash requirement. It just uses the monitor
preflash and doesn't actually read anything off of the CCD. The
flash inaccuracy isn't limited to the sb80dx I also use quantuam
x2d flashes and have exactly the same issues with both cameras.
Just from my own experiece I've found that D-TTL to be almost 100%
useless. I seem to be able to get more consistant results using AA
modes on both flashes, but I still have to play with flash
compensation alot.

Craig Hermle

Click to expand...

--
... Stalk Well ;-)
http://www.stalkwell.com

If this helps, the D70 and SB800 works MUCH better! I now use my D1X and SB80 as my Back-up camera at weddings! Evidently Nikon has stuff much better with the next generation of camera. I am sure that the D2x will be much better in the flash department.

If you put the flash of AA and the camera on Aperature Mode and Center Weighted Metering, the D1x will shoot about 80% good exposures at a wedding. But, the D70 on iTTL with the SB800 on TTL will shoot about 95% good exposures at a wedding! For the Money, everyone should get the D70 for now and wait for the D2x!! My two cents...

Kevin Hawkins
hawkinsphoto.com

cameracommando said:

Craig Hermle said:

I have 2 D1x cameras that are used almost exclusively for wedding
work. I don't think the issue is with the sb80dx it's the way that
the D1x determines flash requirement. It just uses the monitor
preflash and doesn't actually read anything off of the CCD. The
flash inaccuracy isn't limited to the sb80dx I also use quantuam
x2d flashes and have exactly the same issues with both cameras.
Just from my own experiece I've found that D-TTL to be almost 100%
useless. I seem to be able to get more consistant results using AA
modes on both flashes, but I still have to play with flash
compensation alot.

Craig Hermle

Click to expand...

--
... Stalk Well ;-)
http://www.stalkwell.com

Click to expand...

--
Phillippe,

Thanks for this test. It begs more questions than answers now. Why the spot meter was reading the same exposure in allo 3 flash test shots baffles me. Would be interested to see what the shutter speed was on the three. Was 1/60 sec the true exposure needed or was the camera bumbing up on the slowest sync speed? If 1/60 was correct, then slow sync would't change unless the shutter needed to get slower for proper exposure....the way I understand it.

I think I know why no one has printed an update to the Nikon flash guide including SB-80DX. It can't be done.
Chip
http://www.pbase.com/chip_g