D2X and F6 : OFFICIAL PRESENTATION to RESELLERS

Ron Parr · Sep 14, 2004

fjp said:
Which is precisely why I call this such a bonehead feature. My
jaws will drop to the floor if Nikon put such a lame, amateurish
feature in their $5,000, flagship camera.

It's a smart feature because it lets you work around the bandwidth limitations of your imaging pipeline.

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daytontp · Sep 14, 2004

Buy a 200-400 f/4 VR.
Then you have a 300-600 f/4 at 1.5x and 400-800 f/4 at 2.0x.

Then grab a 200 f/2 VR
The you have a 300 f/2 at 1.5x and a 400 f/2 at 2.0x.

Just think of the reduced number of lenses you would need.

Paul Johnson said:
Anthony Medici said:

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Paul Johnson said:

If you think about it, you can get the same shot by shooting the
1.5x at 12.4mp as you would at 2x/ 6.9mp just by croping the shot
later on. The in-camera crop just saves space and allows a higher
fps. This is assuming that this rumored feature is real anyway.

Paul

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

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David Lane · Sep 14, 2004

Ron Parr said:
David Lane said:

because of the bayer method. What pixles would you throw out? If it
is rgbg style sensor, it would not work. If it were Foveon, it
would work.

Click to expand...

The Bayer has no influence on this issue. You just throw out the
pixels on the borders exactly the way you'd expect.

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Iliah Borg · Sep 14, 2004

daytontp said:
Faster Wi-Fi and in two ways : the camera can be remotely operated
from a computer.

http://nikonimaging.com/global/news/2004/0913_01.htm

--
no text

fjp · Sep 14, 2004

Paul Johnson said:
I'm sure some people will like the feature(if it's real), but I
hope Nikon hasn't sacrifised anything else (including additional
cost) in order to provide that feature.

What would be nice -- and I've said this before without any response from anybody -- is if Nikon used a DSP to resample a full-size (i.e. DX-size) image down to 8 or 6 MPixels, to save download time and space. They could even use tricks to increase the dynamic range by combining information from adjacent pixels. Now that would require finesse, not the idiotic, brute force that all these people talking about a 2X crop would require.
--
FJP

fjp · Sep 14, 2004

Ron Parr said:
fjp said:

Which is precisely why I call this such a bonehead feature. My
jaws will drop to the floor if Nikon put such a lame, amateurish
feature in their $5,000, flagship camera.

Click to expand...

It's a smart feature because it lets you work around the bandwidth
limitations of your imaging pipeline.

It's a dumb feature that way more sophisticated and useful functionality can accomplish those goals. See my suggestion above.

--
FJP

fjp · Sep 14, 2004

Actually it would be kind of sad if it's true.

--
FJP

daytontp · Sep 14, 2004

.. think about it, it the feature is there, you can likely turn it off. If you would never use it fine, don't. But, for the people that like it, they can turn it on. Nikon is making 2 sides of a debate happy at the same time. Just like ash trays in cars. If you do not smoke, do not use the ash tray in your car.

fjp said:
Ron Parr said:

fjp said:

Which is precisely why I call this such a bonehead feature. My
jaws will drop to the floor if Nikon put such a lame, amateurish
feature in their $5,000, flagship camera.

Click to expand...

It's a smart feature because it lets you work around the bandwidth
limitations of your imaging pipeline.

Click to expand...

It's a dumb feature that way more sophisticated and useful
functionality can accomplish those goals. See my suggestion above.

--
FJP

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Ron Parr · Sep 14, 2004

fjp said:
What would be nice -- and I've said this before without any
response from anybody -- is if Nikon used a DSP to resample a
full-size (i.e. DX-size) image down to 8 or 6 MPixels, to save
download time and space.

Most cameras that have the processing power do something like this. For example, the 8.2MP 1D Mk II also offers 6.3MP, 4.3MP and 2MP modes.

fjp said:
They could even use tricks to increase the
dynamic range by combining information from adjacent pixels.

There's not much you can do here unless you want to permanently sacrifice some sensitivity for some of your pixels. Techniques for dynamically adjusting the behavior of pixels exist, but you sacrifice a fair amount of pixel real estate to do this given current technology. Perhaps in a few years though...

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Ron Parr · Sep 14, 2004

fjp said:
fjp said:

It's a smart feature because it lets you work around the bandwidth
limitations of your imaging pipeline.

Click to expand...

It's a dumb feature that way more sophisticated and useful
functionality can accomplish those goals. See my suggestion above.

Sorry, but that's just wrong. It's not matter of opinion here. If you're limited by your sensor's bandwidth, then grabbing fewer pixels is the only way to get more frames per second.

--
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fjp · Sep 14, 2004

ib1yysguy said:
What I'm saying is: Why would they have to have a 2.0x crop as
opposed to having the camera just shrink the filesize? With less
data it could process the images twice as fast, in theory, and
shoot more quickly, without having to engineer a double-purpose
viewfinder for the thing. Just a straight 1.5x crop with dual frame
rates.

I don't understand it, but they just don't get it. From the looks of things, if Nikon does what you're suggesting here (and what I've been suggesting for weeks), people will be so puzzled by the results it will cut into sales.

--
FJP

Mark Tuccillo · Sep 14, 2004

In your scenario, if both are shooting with the same length lens, a real possibility, then the resolution difference is only 21%. If you think this will make a significant difference, then you are dreaming.

Mark

Jonathan F/2 said:
The guy with the 1Dmark2 was in the same exact situation, except
with the extra megapixels he is able to crop into the image and
pull something out that is acceptable for print. You try doing the
same thing, unfortunately with only 4mp you are unable to salvage
such a detailed image. You loose the shot and you loose the sale.

This is a real life work situation. The ability to crop into an
image can make the difference if you make a sale or not.

I don't need to print large, I just need more reassurance to
guarantee the shot. More megapixels is that reassurance.

Mel said:

Jason Milliron said:

Jonathan F/2 said:

I still think Canon's line-up seems more effective. There seems to
be overlap between the D2H and the D2X.

Click to expand...

Yeah, a lot of overlap between the D2h and D2x and a huge gap
between the D70 and D2h. Maybe a major price drop for the D2h?

-jason m

--
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Click to expand...

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Click to expand...

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fjp · Sep 14, 2004

Ron Parr said:
fjp said:

ib1yysguy said:

Member said:

-- Crop x2 = 8fps / 6.9
MP (I don't remember how many pictures in the buffer then)

Click to expand...

'nuf said

Click to expand...

This would be such a bonehead move I'd think Nikon was taken over
by retards.

Click to expand...

What he probably meant is that the math isn't right.

I HARDLY think so, although people have preoccupied themselves with more useless nit picking than even this.

Member said:
One would
expect 7.9MP, not 6.9.

Yawn...you're boring me to death. And before you say, then don't read your posts, I'm just being rhetorical, in case you can't figure that out, either.

Nothing personal. All this is just so amusing.

--
FJP

David Martin · Sep 14, 2004

At least about the D2x - otherwise the guys here who have actually handled the D2x would have stomped on this - they have on several other posts which gave different specs so dealt with.

If the F6 part of the post is accurate, the reason why Nikon have not registered the name F6 may be because they have not chosen to actually call the camera that, and it is being referred to by that name here because that is what the camera actually is.

Don't I reall that there is some other Nikon-registered name floating about? The Lightening, or some such?
Both God and marketing departments move in mysterious ways

daytontp said:
D2X and F6 : OFFICIAL PRESENTATION to RESELLERS.

(Please excuse my english, I know it sucks. Thank you !)

Yesterday at Nikon France, product presentation :
D2X, F6 and AF-s VR 300/2.8. Nothing else.

D2X : 12.4 MP, 5 fps, 15 NEF picts buffer. -- Crop x2 = 8fps / 6.9
MP (I don't remember how many pictures in the buffer then)
ISO 100 to 800, then only 1600 and 3200 accessible by custom settings.
Faster Wi-Fi and in two ways : the camera can be remotely operated
from a computer.
DXO integrated : each lens is recognised and corrected by DXO in
the camera...
Special setting : individual treatment of bright groups of pixels
to avoid or delay overexposure and improve dynamic response.
Same body as D2H, except a minor improvement on the vertical grip.
Improved (!) 3D metering system - still 1005 rvb pixels but new
algorythm.
Price in France : 5200 € - VAT included

Dave --> I don't know how they address the 2x mode in the
viewfinder, sorry ! I'll ask my friend tomorrow. By the way : this
person is the biggest Nikon reseller in France. I fully trust him :
these are NOT rumors. I only wish I could have been there with him.
But I'm "just" a pro photographer, not a reseller...

F6 : replaces F5 and F100. As big as F100. Unlike the F5, it is not
monobloc (do you say "monobloc" in english ?) External battery pack
available.
Without it, it needs lithium batteries (!?!) and reaches 5fps. With
the MB-something, it uses either 8 AA standard batteries or the
same EN-EL4 as D2 series. It then reaches 8fps.
Improved 3D metering system over the F5, i-TTL also available.
D2-like AF, adapted to 24x36mm.
100 % viewfinder. Not interchangeable.
Construction quality is F5/D2 like. Much better than the plastic
F100 (my friend said).
Price in France : 2200 € - VAT included. => this is good news...

Availability : I don't know !!! I forgot to ask ! Sorry !

Taken from:
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/112358/39

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Anthony Medici · Sep 14, 2004

Paul Johnson said:
Except if you shoot raw and process with C1 PRO then cropping 100
images takes about 1 second. Plus if you want 2.2x crop or 1.7x
crop or anything else, you can decide that at that time.

I didn't realize I could run C1 on my Nikon cameras while I'm in the field. Won't that take up memory on my card thatI was trying to save using the cropping feature? Does it allow me to shoot a faster frame rate too?

Neat!

--
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fjp · Sep 14, 2004

daytontp said:
.. think about it, it the feature is there, you can likely turn it
off. If you would never use it fine, don't. But, for the people
that like it, they can turn it on. Nikon is making 2 sides of a
debate happy at the same time. Just like ash trays in cars. If
you do not smoke, do not use the ash tray in your car.

Whether they do it or not, it's still a bonehead move.

--
FJP

fjp · Sep 14, 2004

Ron Parr said:
fjp said:

Member said:

It's a smart feature because it lets you work around the bandwidth
limitations of your imaging pipeline.

Click to expand...

It's a dumb feature that way more sophisticated and useful
functionality can accomplish those goals. See my suggestion above.

Click to expand...

Sorry, but that's just wrong. It's not matter of opinion here. If
you're limited by your sensor's bandwidth, then grabbing fewer
pixels is the only way to get more frames per second.

Are we saying we're limited by the sensor's bandwidth? Or some other data path? What is it?

--
FJP

maxz · Sep 14, 2004

F6 info IS accurate ;-)

David Martin said:
daytontp said:

D2X and F6 : OFFICIAL PRESENTATION to RESELLERS.

(Please excuse my english, I know it sucks. Thank you !)

Yesterday at Nikon France, product presentation :
D2X, F6 and AF-s VR 300/2.8. Nothing else.

D2X : 12.4 MP, 5 fps, 15 NEF picts buffer. -- Crop x2 = 8fps / 6.9
MP (I don't remember how many pictures in the buffer then)
ISO 100 to 800, then only 1600 and 3200 accessible by custom settings.
Faster Wi-Fi and in two ways : the camera can be remotely operated
from a computer.
DXO integrated : each lens is recognised and corrected by DXO in
the camera...
Special setting : individual treatment of bright groups of pixels
to avoid or delay overexposure and improve dynamic response.
Same body as D2H, except a minor improvement on the vertical grip.
Improved (!) 3D metering system - still 1005 rvb pixels but new
algorythm.
Price in France : 5200 € - VAT included

Dave --> I don't know how they address the 2x mode in the
viewfinder, sorry ! I'll ask my friend tomorrow. By the way : this
person is the biggest Nikon reseller in France. I fully trust him :
these are NOT rumors. I only wish I could have been there with him.
But I'm "just" a pro photographer, not a reseller...

F6 : replaces F5 and F100. As big as F100. Unlike the F5, it is not
monobloc (do you say "monobloc" in english ?) External battery pack
available.
Without it, it needs lithium batteries (!?!) and reaches 5fps. With
the MB-something, it uses either 8 AA standard batteries or the
same EN-EL4 as D2 series. It then reaches 8fps.
Improved 3D metering system over the F5, i-TTL also available.
D2-like AF, adapted to 24x36mm.
100 % viewfinder. Not interchangeable.
Construction quality is F5/D2 like. Much better than the plastic
F100 (my friend said).
Price in France : 2200 € - VAT included. => this is good news...

Availability : I don't know !!! I forgot to ask ! Sorry !

Taken from:
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/112358/39

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Click to expand...

--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment

fjp · Sep 14, 2004

Anthony Medici said:
fjp said:

I don't understand it, but they just don't get it. From the looks
of things, if Nikon does what you're suggesting here (and what I've
been suggesting for weeks), people will be so puzzled by the
results it will cut into sales.

Click to expand...

I understand you are a software developer. Most software developers
I know can usually name a few good reasons for any feature. But you
seem to want to do this feature, with a less images and a slower
frame rate, with your computer after the shoot. I can understand
why the feature is there and I know how I would used it, assuming
it comes to pass.

But I agree with your subject, I think I'm wasting my breath on you
since you can only see this as a negative. I guess that will leave
one more camera available for me.

Dream on. I want two features out of a high end camera: higher resolution and greater dynamic range. That may be asking for too much. If it is, only then will there be one more camera available for you. If the D2x gives me both, there will be one less camera available for you, even if it has the lame 2X crop. In camera-sharpening did not stop me from buying the D70.

--
FJP

Otel Garcia · Sep 14, 2004

daytontp said:
F6 : replaces F5 and F100. As big as F100. Unlike the F5, it is not
monobloc (do you say "monobloc" in english ?) External battery pack
available.
Without it, it needs lithium batteries (!?!) and reaches 5fps. With
the MB-something, it uses either 8 AA standard batteries or the
same EN-EL4 as D2 series. It then reaches 8fps.
Improved 3D metering system over the F5, i-TTL also available.
D2-like AF, adapted to 24x36mm.
100 % viewfinder. Not interchangeable.
Construction quality is F5/D2 like. Much better than the plastic
F100 (my friend said).
Price in France : 2200 € - VAT included. => this is good news...

daytontp said:

--

Click to expand...

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If this is true, then the F5 is the last of the interchangeable finder Nikons. Nikon will probably say this improves weather sealing (and the alternative finders are too expensive and far too limited in metering anyway), but this will make the F6 look more like another manufacturer's pro SLR. Especially with the lithium batteries.

Besides, why did they bother at all, with the world going digital?

D2X and F6 : OFFICIAL PRESENTATION to RESELLERS

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