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Professional Photograger salaries and earnings (info-question)

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Speaking as a pro I have really been interested in these posts.. I want to say that I am a strong believer in the freedom to run your business as you see fit no matter what any one says. One point I don't think that as been brought up, is the business ignorance( I don't mean stupidity) of "low ballers". There are a lot of business policies and pricing points veteran shooters have fought for over the years that 'low ballers" are completely unaware of. One in particular is copyright and usage pricing. So many people are just giving this away to make a quick buck and having a truly negative affect on everyone. Again I totally support your right to opperate your business however you want as long as you are aware of the long term affects on the entire proffesion. I really believe you are affecting the profession and yourself in the long run. It's like pouring oil in the drain. 1 person wont affect much but the more and more people that do it will result in incredible pollution. I really believe "lbs" have a ripple effect on the profession and it eventully will touch most photographers, even you will soon find yourself losing jobs to someone charging $50 an hour and throwing in a free set of steak knives. On a day to day basis I'm not worried about "lbs" but in an overall view of the profession I'm really worried that we are all throwing it away. I think you need to realize that this is what some people do for a living. You have another job and do this "on the side". You do affect our business. I don't think you're doing anything wrong but I think you need to realize it does have an accumulative affect. The word ethical was brought up earlier and I think that's what I'm talking about. I think there are a lot of pros worried that the "lbs" are going to leave this profession in worst shape than what they found it.
 
djturner said:
I think you need
to realize that this is what some people do for a living. You have
another job and do this "on the side". You do affect our business.
Click to expand...
If you do a job that can be done "on the side" you have to wonder just how valuable is the service you perform.

If your job isn't hard -- if it's not hard to get into -- then you are going to have a difficult time keeping prices high.

Oh -- but photography is hard you say. The "on the siders" can't produce what I produce, you say. Then what is the worry? If I can't produce what you produce, then nothing I do really matters.

But if I can produce what you produce, or a reasonable facsimile thereof, and do it "on the side" -- and "I" being representative of a growing class of people -- then yes, your livelihood really is in danger.

Reminds me of growing up in a blue collar community where all my friends thought they'd graduate HS and go to work at the local factory, and make good enough money to have a house on a lake, a van and a boat -- working on a factory line like their dads did.

But in order to accomplish that you have to have a union that controls the labor and prevents people from working for less money. You need a guild that hands out liscenses and prevents people from working that aren't part of the guild.

In essence that's what you are arguing. As "guild representative" you are lecturing folks for not obeying the rules of the guild. How dare we "make fire" when the guild controls all fire-making.

All I can say is that I never liked unions all that much -- and there is no photography guild. And if me making some money on the weekends to pay for my hobby affects your economics -- than that's your problem. Just as it's "my problem" that folks over seas are programming for cheaper than I do.

Finally -- as a tactic -- I think you'd do far better to show folks how to maximize their incomes in photography rather than complain that they are charging too low.

Lee
 
there is a saying that goes: How do you make a small fortune in photography? First start with a large fortune.

I report all of my earnings but I do write off a lot since my business is such an integral part of my life. Food is only written off when with a client but most other stuff is used in the business. I don't count the hours I work as I enjoy what I do. Yes. I could make more money in other profressions but I use more skills in photography than even teaching. There is more to life than money. One big problem is health insurance. Retirement doesn't really happen to a photographer as long as someone can still mostly see. My wife's last shoot was a week before she died and that was a good ending. I laughingly say I am retired as I am doing what I want to do. Fortunaely I do not have a family to support (much), no mortgage, but have a lot of old equipment & props. As to what I make: my/our income ranged from $150k as a high to $30k. As I said, it is not for the money.
 
I think you missed my point. I am not a big fan of unions either and would never argue for that. I have no problem with you going after work. I'm not worried at all about you taking work from me. I am concerned about an overall attitude about the profession I see happening that is having an affect on all photographers. I'll give you a real world example. I had a client question my usage charges by saying "we hired a guy the other day to do some low end stuff and he didn't charge usage". I explained to the client the difference in the work and it really wasn't an issue but I saw the start of something. The start of something that I think is going to take us all down a scary road of lessing the value of a photograph. I think we are all to blame. The market is oversaturated with competent photographers and naturaly that will drive down fees. But I'm really worried about people who give stuff away. If somebody wants to under bid me fine I'll stand by my rate but people that completely ignore the usage structure are slowly chipping away at something that has made advertising a promising field to try and make a living at. I don't shoot weddings so I am approaching this from a different angle. I'm not bothered by your working on the side. I wish you all the luck and if you decide to make it fulltime I would be more than willing to give you any help I could. It's just you seem to have an attitude that says "I don't care the affect I have on your field, tough, deal with it". I feel like you think if it gets too hard you always have your day job and screw the rest of us. That is what bothers me and is one of MANY things that I fear is making photography a harder field to make a living at.
LeeBase said:
LeeBase said:
I think you need
to realize that this is what some people do for a living. You have
another job and do this "on the side". You do affect our business.
Click to expand...
If you do a job that can be done "on the side" you have to wonder
just how valuable is the service you perform.

If your job isn't hard -- if it's not hard to get into -- then you
are going to have a difficult time keeping prices high.

Oh -- but photography is hard you say. The "on the siders" can't
produce what I produce, you say. Then what is the worry? If I
can't produce what you produce, then nothing I do really matters.

But if I can produce what you produce, or a reasonable facsimile
thereof, and do it "on the side" -- and "I" being representative of
a growing class of people -- then yes, your livelihood really is in
danger.

Reminds me of growing up in a blue collar community where all my
friends thought they'd graduate HS and go to work at the local
factory, and make good enough money to have a house on a lake, a
van and a boat -- working on a factory line like their dads did.

But in order to accomplish that you have to have a union that
controls the labor and prevents people from working for less money.
You need a guild that hands out liscenses and prevents people from
working that aren't part of the guild.

In essence that's what you are arguing. As "guild representative"
you are lecturing folks for not obeying the rules of the guild.
How dare we "make fire" when the guild controls all fire-making.

All I can say is that I never liked unions all that much -- and
there is no photography guild. And if me making some money on the
weekends to pay for my hobby affects your economics -- than that's
your problem. Just as it's "my problem" that folks over seas are
programming for cheaper than I do.

Finally -- as a tactic -- I think you'd do far better to show folks
how to maximize their incomes in photography rather than complain
that they are charging too low.

Lee
Click to expand...
 
I've been a professional photographer for 25+ years. Weddings, families, senior portraits in a medium price range in rural Washington. My net income varies year to year, but about $30k-$40k, which is slightly above average for the incomes in my area. I'm not getting rich off photography, but I enjoy what I do and live quite well. It's a quality of life and attitute toward life.

I never get out of bed thinking, "I wish I didn't have to go to work today" as I did working for others before I became a phototgrapher. I'm self emplyed, no employees and my wife doen't help in the business. In fact she doesn't work so it is possible to raise a family on a single income.

My house and cars are paid for. I have a 1000sq ft studio attached to the house; my morning commute is a short walk. My advise to beginning photographs is give great service and learn to manage your money wisely.

Accept that photography is a seasonal business and adjust your lifestyle. I work hard July-Nov and hardly work Jan-May. And that's ok. Don't spend all the fall income on new stuff and it'll get you through the winter.

I like the European attitude towards work and vacation. When I sit down in January to reflect on the previous year and plan my marketing for next year, my goal is no longer to increase my gross by x% or increase weddings by x#, it' to increase my vacation time to 6 weeks a year-usually 3wks in Feb-Mar and 3 in May or June, or to increase time spent with my daughter.
--
Dennis
 
djturner said:
"I don't care the
affect I have on your field, tough, deal with it". I feel like you
think if it gets too hard you always have your day job and screw
the rest of us. That is what bothers me and is one of MANY things
that I fear is making photography a harder field to make a living
at.
Click to expand...
I understand how I could have come across that way. It typically comes after someone accuses me of being "unethical" for serving the "bottom" segment of the market -- as if these folks were going to pay "big money" for photography anyway.

Still the idea that photography "belongs" to the "full time professional" is ridiculous. And that's another perspective that will come out from me when I'm pushed.

We are all selfish. When you go to buy a car and you negotiate the price, you are negotiating how much of the cash stays in your pocket and how much goes in his. It's basic economics.

For the salesman to get upset because I reasearched on the internet so I know what his costs are -- know what his competitors are charging -- and can negotiate a price that leaves him with a LOT less in his pocket -- what's that to me? Am I "ruining the profession of the car salesman"? Who knows. I may well be -- but I'm not worried about the car sales profession -- and neither are you. I'm worrying about baces for my kids' teet, and paying for their college education and so on -- just like the car salesman is.

And when someone says to me...."you undercut now, and next week someone will undercut you."...well, to me that's just a truism. There is a certain segment of any market that is very price sensitive. If you want to do work in a price sensitive sector of a market, you gotta work hard to be the low cost provider.

All of this means nothing to the creative photographer who can produce a product that people are willing to pay more for. That is not the "price sensitive" segment of the market.

To conlude -- I mean no disrespect to the profession. Why would I want all the money to go out of photography if I plan to work (even if it's part time) in the photography field.

But market realities are what they are, whether you are selling your photography skills, or selling cars. Me taking the time to talk about it is not me CREATING the situation.

Lee
 
Dennis Collins said:
I've been a professional photographer for 25+ years. Weddings,
families, senior portraits in a medium price range in rural
Washington. My net income varies year to year, but about
$30k-$40k, which is slightly above average for the incomes in my
area. I'm not getting rich off photography, but I enjoy what I do
and live quite well. It's a quality of life and attitute toward
life.

I never get out of bed thinking, "I wish I didn't have to go to
work today" as I did working for others before I became a
phototgrapher. I'm self emplyed, no employees and my wife doen't
help in the business. In fact she doesn't work so it is possible
to raise a family on a single income.

My house and cars are paid for. I have a 1000sq ft studio attached
to the house; my morning commute is a short walk. My advise to
beginning photographs is give great service and learn to manage
your money wisely.
Accept that photography is a seasonal business and adjust your
lifestyle. I work hard July-Nov and hardly work Jan-May. And
that's ok. Don't spend all the fall income on new stuff and it'll
get you through the winter.

I like the European attitude towards work and vacation. When I sit
down in January to reflect on the previous year and plan my
marketing for next year, my goal is no longer to increase my gross
by x% or increase weddings by x#, it' to increase my vacation time
to 6 weeks a year-usually 3wks in Feb-Mar and 3 in May or June, or
to increase time spent with my daughter.
--
Dennis
Click to expand...
 
Hi Miguel,

This has been a fascinating series of threads to read through. All good points put forth so eloquently I feel I should've hired a ghost writer for visiting this forum. Miguel I think you have collected some great insights here and I'd lke add my 2 cents worth.

I work full time as a photographer in a midwestern state working for a state government agency. My pre-tax salary is in the 33-34K range, plus benefits, for what are 'officially 40hr weeks but are more often than not stretch to about 50hr weeks with no OT.

Due to a co-worker retiring, after this coming Wednesday I'll be the only state employee with the job title photographer. You'd think that would make me a very busy guy and right now I'm busier than I was just 6 months ago. But I also see nearly every office in my agency getting their own P&S digital camera so they can 'do it themselves.'

As a state agency we don't operate to make a profit, nevertheless we have to continue to show that we are a needful/required function that should remain in-house. You see, outsourcing is the 'belle of the ball' with our current governor.

Good thing I really like what I do as I'd have to agree that the big bucks aren't in photography but the personal satisfaction factor is extremely high.

Photography started out as hobby while in school and to be paid to work at my hobby for 26 years has been a real blessing.

And on the subject of weddings; I don't seek out weddings but end up with 2-4 a year. When approached by a potential client I make sure they know that my milieu is photographing heavy equipment, construction work zones, structures and public relations events and that they should consider getting in touch with so and so who is in the business of photographing weddings. If they return and explain that so ansd so had a great portfolio but they simply could not afford to hire him or it wasn't what tey wanted then I will help see to it that they special day is documented. I don't feel I'm uethically taking another photographer's bread off his/her table as my client has already determined that they couldn't afford the mid to high end pricing OR were not sold on the value of the package versus the money being asked.

I'm satisfied with my own gear, my employer, after being put between a rock and hard place sort to speak, has begun to replace outdated/broken gear and I my 'lens lust' inoculations are all current.
Happy shooting.

Camperjoe
Miguel G said:
Many of you are professional photographers and many of you dream to
become in the future (myself also, if opportunity comes and I
decide to change careers).

One important think to consider are the working conditions and
earnings that a photographer should expect. The national statistics
are published by the U.S. Department of Labor (www.bls.gov). You
will find interesting info there. I copied some information from
the website below.

I personally find striking the that the median annual earnings are
just a mere $24,040 in 2002. This surely is very little money if
you consider that the cost of living in places with more demand are
very high (NYC, LA).

A question for you pros. Are these numbers real? Is it true that
the earnings of 50% of the photographers are between
$17,740-$34,910.

Without having to disclose your salary, it would be useful
information to many of us to know from you pro, what is your area
of photography and what are the earnings expected for that area
according to your experience and knowledge. Statistics are
sometimes a bit misleading.

I personally earn > 3x this salary and I can't imagine with the
living cost in San Diego (my location) how a photographer with
theses earnings can maintain a family and have a middle class
living.

Thanks much for your feedback.

Miguel
  1. #########
Median annual earnings of salaried photographers were $24,040 in
2002. The middle 50 percent earned between $17,740 and $34,910. The
lowest 10 percent earned less than $14,640, and the highest 10
percent earned more than $49,920. Median annual earnings in the
industries employing the largest numbers of salaried photographers
were $31,460 for newspapers and periodicals and $21,860 for other
professional or scientific services.

Salaried photographers—more of whom work full time—tend to earn
more than those who are self-employed. Because most freelance and
portrait photographers purchase their own equipment, they incur
considerable expense acquiring and maintaining cameras and
accessories. Unlike news and commercial photographers, few fine
arts photographers are successful enough to support themselves
solely through their art.
Click to expand...
 
camper_joe said:
But I also see nearly every office in
my agency getting their own P&S digital camera so they can 'do it
themselves.'
Click to expand...
People should pay attention to this. While we may "know" that someone with a digi-cam can't get the shots that a pro does -- many people are indeed turning to "do it ourselves" -- and are satisfied.

As more people do this, it does affect the pro market. Certainly at the bottom level.
camper_joe said:
I don't feel I'm
uethically taking another photographer's bread off his/her table as
my client has already determined that they couldn't afford the mid
to high end pricing OR were not sold on the value of the package
versus the money being asked.
Click to expand...
Another good point.

Lee
 
The statistics for average income for photographers is slighted because they include people who take pictures at department stores. Believe it or not, that composes over 20% of the photographer population!

My humble opinion is that many photographers out there, especially portrait / wedding photographers, work way too hard on re-creating the wheel with lighting & posing skills, gadgets, equipment and not as hard on their marketing skills. I know of many photographers in my area who do wonderful work but not many people know about it and they struggle to make a good living.

To be a sucessfull marketer, you must answer these 3 questions in all marketing peices;

Why should I buy what you do?

Why should I buy it from you and not the next guy?

Whay should I buy it from you now?

In other words, learn what makes you better than the next guy, turn that into how the client will benefit from what you do better and why they should do it with you now. Deliver that message to a targeted audiance very regurlarly (I personally use direct mail but radio, tv newspaper all will work too) and you will have more business than you can shake a stick at.

Once the focus is placed more on the business end, the salary potential is very strong. 100k+ for a 1 photographer / small staff home town portrait studio is easily attainable after a few years of carefully written, consistantly delivered targeted marketing.

Just my long winded humble opinion....

BT
Miguel G said:
Many of you are professional photographers and many of you dream to
become in the future (myself also, if opportunity comes and I
decide to change careers).

One important think to consider are the working conditions and
earnings that a photographer should expect. The national statistics
are published by the U.S. Department of Labor (www.bls.gov). You
will find interesting info there. I copied some information from
the website below.

I personally find striking the that the median annual earnings are
just a mere $24,040 in 2002. This surely is very little money if
you consider that the cost of living in places with more demand are
very high (NYC, LA).

A question for you pros. Are these numbers real? Is it true that
the earnings of 50% of the photographers are between
$17,740-$34,910.

Without having to disclose your salary, it would be useful
information to many of us to know from you pro, what is your area
of photography and what are the earnings expected for that area
according to your experience and knowledge. Statistics are
sometimes a bit misleading.

I personally earn > 3x this salary and I can't imagine with the
living cost in San Diego (my location) how a photographer with
theses earnings can maintain a family and have a middle class
living.

Thanks much for your feedback.

Miguel
  1. #########
Median annual earnings of salaried photographers were $24,040 in
2002. The middle 50 percent earned between $17,740 and $34,910. The
lowest 10 percent earned less than $14,640, and the highest 10
percent earned more than $49,920. Median annual earnings in the
industries employing the largest numbers of salaried photographers
were $31,460 for newspapers and periodicals and $21,860 for other
professional or scientific services.

Salaried photographers—more of whom work full time—tend to earn
more than those who are self-employed. Because most freelance and
portrait photographers purchase their own equipment, they incur
considerable expense acquiring and maintaining cameras and
accessories. Unlike news and commercial photographers, few fine
arts photographers are successful enough to support themselves
solely through their art.
Click to expand...
--
Thanks,

Bob
 
You got it, pro-photography if you run your own business is much more than cameras and making images. Its heavily slanted on marketing and selling along with careful cost management.

Once you realise it is a business and not just a hobby with some pay from time to time, the more likely you will have success and will charge proper pricing and offer products your geographical area wants.
Mr Keepsake said:
The statistics for average income for photographers is slighted
because they include people who take pictures at department stores.
Believe it or not, that composes over 20% of the photographer
population!

My humble opinion is that many photographers out there, especially
portrait / wedding photographers, work way too hard on re-creating
the wheel with lighting & posing skills, gadgets, equipment and not
as hard on their marketing skills. I know of many photographers in
my area who do wonderful work but not many people know about it and
they struggle to make a good living.

To be a sucessfull marketer, you must answer these 3 questions in
all marketing peices;

Why should I buy what you do?

Why should I buy it from you and not the next guy?

Whay should I buy it from you now?

In other words, learn what makes you better than the next guy, turn
that into how the client will benefit from what you do better and
why they should do it with you now. Deliver that message to a
targeted audiance very regurlarly (I personally use direct mail but
radio, tv newspaper all will work too) and you will have more
business than you can shake a stick at.

Once the focus is placed more on the business end, the salary
potential is very strong. 100k+ for a 1 photographer / small staff
home town portrait studio is easily attainable after a few years of
carefully written, consistantly delivered targeted marketing.

Just my long winded humble opinion....

BT
Click to expand...
 
I'm a little over a year into a new photography business after a 20 year hiatus from the profession and I'm far exceeding the bleak potential set forth in the opening msg.

The key is maketing, assuming you have the requisite talent. No amt of marketing will overcome bad photography, although good marketing can make mediocre photography profitable, and great photography very profitable. The key is getting out there and getting to know people. Become active in your local chamber and other civic groups. Volunteer your services for community-oriented events and promote the heck out of your business the whole time you're doing it.

There will always be a market for quality photography services. You just have to get out there and find it.
Phileas Fogg said:
You got it, pro-photography if you run your own business is much
more than cameras and making images. Its heavily slanted on
marketing and selling along with careful cost management.

Once you realise it is a business and not just a hobby with some
pay from time to time, the more likely you will have success and
will charge proper pricing and offer products your geographical
area wants.
Click to expand...
 
...and that's what i'm cautioning for.

sure, marketing is one key to success. but not all. For example, it doesn't factor in editorial work anymore because that niche's been blown to smithereens by low-ballers. ever wonder why image quality in the magazines isn't quite what it used to be? it's because quality doesn't matter to the publishers as much as the bottom line. all the good shooters pulled out because $175+byline for a 1/4 page doesn't cut it for them while it sure sounded great to many, many others.

So pros in the other niches need to be vigilant against the same type of practices that brought down editorial. Especially those working in the higher-priced markets. Educate your peers. Go to colleges and speak. Share your rates with other pros in your area and network about improving end products. Hone your craft. Be relentless in your negotiations with clients.

It's not prices we should be trying to beat each other on. It's SKILL. that's why I personally hand out my rate cards to every pro photographer that i know, or at least the ones i think are worth getting to know. If they have a problem it's usually because at some level they're reminded that they don't charge enough. A few times, it's because they think I'm not charging enough. (Those few are ones I want to learn from.)

Sorry, but I'm just a little tired of all the wispy "oh follow your dream and don't worry about the money" talk. Puhleeze. Do you make more than your local Canon rep or camera store owner? Well, you should. Imaging is a freaking HUGE world industry and photographers are it's foundation. This isn't a social service. It's a highly technical and CREATIVE profession and we should be able to earn boatloads of $$ if we're talented enough.

That's right. Boatloads.

-m
LorenDJones said:
The key is maketing, assuming you have the requisite talent. No amt
of marketing will overcome bad photography, although good marketing
can make mediocre photography profitable, and great photography
very profitable. The key is getting out there and getting to know
people. Become active in your local chamber and other civic
groups. Volunteer your services for community-oriented events and
promote the heck out of your business the whole time you're doing
it.

There will always be a market for quality photography services.
You just have to get out there and find it.
Phileas Fogg said:
You got it, pro-photography if you run your own business is much
more than cameras and making images. Its heavily slanted on
marketing and selling along with careful cost management.

Once you realise it is a business and not just a hobby with some
pay from time to time, the more likely you will have success and
will charge proper pricing and offer products your geographical
area wants.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
http://www.mauriceramirez.com
 
mauriceramirez said:
It's not prices we should be trying to beat each other on. It's
SKILL. that's why I personally hand out my rate cards to every
pro photographer that i know, or at least the ones i think are
worth getting to know. If they have a problem it's usually
because at some level they're reminded that they don't charge
enough. A few times, it's because they think I'm not charging
enough. (Those few are ones I want to learn from.)
Click to expand...
Finally someone taking a positive approach to the situation of "low ballers". Help them up THEIR rates. Criticizing them for not charging enough is not going to work.

Lee
 
LeeBase said:
LeeBase said:
It's not prices we should be trying to beat each other on. It's
SKILL. that's why I personally hand out my rate cards to every
pro photographer that i know, or at least the ones i think are
worth getting to know. If they have a problem it's usually
because at some level they're reminded that they don't charge
enough. A few times, it's because they think I'm not charging
enough. (Those few are ones I want to learn from.)
Click to expand...
Finally someone taking a positive approach to the situation of "low
ballers". Help them up THEIR rates. Criticizing them for not
charging enough is not going to work.

Lee
Click to expand...
Actually he said lowballers destroyed part of the industry (editorial photography) so he's giving out his rates to encourage lowballers to raise prices. I doubt you'd listen to him anymore than you listened to anyone else here. After all you have a real job and if photographers see their businesses die because of you, it's their fault! The market has dictated poverty for everyone but you, so they ough to just shut up and accept it. Tell us, lee, when the industry you work in full time decides to reduce everyone's wage to $7 an hour and you lose your home and your kids starve, will you say the kids deserved to die because that's capitalism and it works; or will you fight for your human dignity and the lives of your loved ones?
--
Chris Crawford

http://www.crawfordandkline.com
Featured in the November, 2003 issue
Popular Photography
 
Ron,
Ron, would you be so kind to check my gallery please….
http://bowens.co.uk/gallery/miodrag

I would like to hear opinion of some more optimistically oriented person.

I live in Eastern Europe, but maybe because of some family reason relocate in USA in year or something like that.

What are you think, what chance I have, according to my gallery? (That is only very small part of my portfolio, and mostly IT stuff.)

I do very successfully here a lot of other things like portraits, landscapes, fashion etc, but those are directly connected to studio light I use.

Thanks a lot!
Ron Gee said:
DON'T SAY THAT! I stumbled into self employment, blisfully
unaware...I have carved out a very nice living doing what I love.
I own a home, take vacations and support kids. I think there is
plenty of room for talented photographers in most fields...some pay
better than others, but with good personal skills and photographic
talent I say go for it!
Click to expand...
--
------------------------
Regards.
 
do comments and sharing of alternate opinions bother you so much? And why can't you see that what Maurice just said ( and what you are agreeing with now) is exactly what others were trying to tell you?

Try to take the comments here as what they are (mostly at least) - constructuve!

Believe me, I wish you well in your side business!
LeeBase said:
LeeBase said:
It's not prices we should be trying to beat each other on. It's
SKILL. that's why I personally hand out my rate cards to every
pro photographer that i know, or at least the ones i think are
worth getting to know. If they have a problem it's usually
because at some level they're reminded that they don't charge
enough. A few times, it's because they think I'm not charging
enough. (Those few are ones I want to learn from.)
Click to expand...
Finally someone taking a positive approach to the situation of "low
ballers". Help them up THEIR rates. Criticizing them for not
charging enough is not going to work.

Lee
Click to expand...
 
subtle - but there's a man who gets it!

The lowballing, undercutting version of capitalism which some people march blindly to needs some direction now and then - for it to be healthy and result in efficiencies and opportunity for all it needs to take place on a fair playing field.

Many of the people who happily join (and even lead) the "race to the bottom" in the name of free enterprise have never heard one of the prime caveats of economics - ceteris paribus.
Christopher Crawford said:
LeeBase said:
Christopher Crawford said:
It's not prices we should be trying to beat each other on. It's
SKILL. that's why I personally hand out my rate cards to every
pro photographer that i know, or at least the ones i think are
worth getting to know. If they have a problem it's usually
because at some level they're reminded that they don't charge
enough. A few times, it's because they think I'm not charging
enough. (Those few are ones I want to learn from.)
Click to expand...
Finally someone taking a positive approach to the situation of "low
ballers". Help them up THEIR rates. Criticizing them for not
charging enough is not going to work.

Lee
Click to expand...
Actually he said lowballers destroyed part of the industry
(editorial photography) so he's giving out his rates to encourage
lowballers to raise prices. I doubt you'd listen to him anymore
than you listened to anyone else here. After all you have a real
job and if photographers see their businesses die because of you,
it's their fault! The market has dictated poverty for everyone but
you, so they ough to just shut up and accept it. Tell us, lee,
when the industry you work in full time decides to reduce
everyone's wage to $7 an hour and you lose your home and your kids
starve, will you say the kids deserved to die because that's
capitalism and it works; or will you fight for your human dignity
and the lives of your loved ones?
--
Chris Crawford

http://www.crawfordandkline.com
Featured in the November, 2003 issue
Popular Photography
Click to expand...
 
Christopher Crawford said:
Actually he said lowballers destroyed part of the industry
(editorial photography) so he's giving out his rates to encourage
lowballers to raise prices.
Click to expand...
Yeah...and now, instead of merely bitching about it...he's doing something to help. "Hey folks...guess what your work is worth...here's what you can get if you just ask for it".
Christopher Crawford said:
I doubt you'd listen to him anymore
than you listened to anyone else here.
Click to expand...
I listen. I just don't equate agreeing with listening. And, fwiw, I'm not a "low baller" but a "bottom feeder" -- someone who services the low end of the market because that's where my experience puts me.

As my experience grows, folks like this guy who shares his rates will be very helpful in my raising mine.
Christopher Crawford said:
After all you have a real
job and if photographers see their businesses die because of you,
it's their fault!
Click to expand...
Yep...and if the car salesman can't make a buck because I researched on the internet before walking into his showroom...I don't shed a tear for him either.

If you can lose business to a part timer with a digital camera and a whopping 4 weddings under his belt -- then you gotta problem. You can ***** and whine all you want, but economic realities are what they are.

If you make your money servicing the bottom part of the market, the one that's the most price sensitive -- then you get what comes with the territory.
Christopher Crawford said:
The market has dictated poverty for everyone but
you, so they ough to just shut up and accept it.
Click to expand...
No, by all means....spit into the wind. I hear it's real helpful.
Christopher Crawford said:
Tell us, lee,
when the industry you work in full time decides to reduce
everyone's wage to $7 an hour and you lose your home and your kids
starve, will you say the kids deserved to die because that's
capitalism and it works; or will you fight for your human dignity
and the lives of your loved ones?
Click to expand...
Fight in ways that make sense. Complaining gets you nothing. Observe and adapt. Our CIO talked to us, and in an unusual move, was very upfront about the future of IT at the company. 80% of the companies IT budget was spent on maintenance....and they want more of their IT dollars spent on new business enhancing initiatives. So they are outsourcing as much of that maintenance work as they can, in order to have more resources for new work. Now you can complain, and try to drag your feet -- or you can adapt and move your career to the new development side of the house.

If you've been a mainframe developer for 25 years in the company -- working on the same project for the last 10 years....you need to be worried.....he says.

I appreciated his honesty. Whether we lose our jobs because he outsourced them....or whether we lose our jobs because a competing company eats our lunch because we refused to do what it takes to lower our costs -- either way, we lose our jobs. So take note of what's "going away" and what's "going forward" and get your butt into the "going forward" side of the equation.

You think photographers are immune from the laws of economics? Go talk to the family farmers. Shooting the messenger won't help you. Rather you observe and adapt.

Lee
 
bdnc said:
do comments and sharing of alternate opinions bother you so much?
Click to expand...
Bother me so much?
bdnc said:
And why can't you see that what Maurice just said ( and what you
are agreeing with now) is exactly what others were trying to tell
you?
Click to expand...
When others have said it, I've agreed with them. When others have tried to argued that it's unethical to charge lower prices when you are new to the business...I disagree.
bdnc said:
Try to take the comments here as what they are (mostly at least) -
constructuve!
Click to expand...
Is that how you take my writings? All posts are not constructive. And even those that are can still be probed and discussed.
bdnc said:
Believe me, I wish you well in your side business!
Click to expand...
Thanks,

Lee
 
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