Professional Photograger salaries and earnings (info-question)

Everything is cyclical, Low ballers have forced creative pros to change and yes at times expect less, but low ballers are come and go soon as more realise they are unprepared to make a real go at it will move on and the market will reflect such changes.

Consumers always want something for nothing, (never gonna happen in reality) but also will pay a fair price for a good product or service. Luxury cars sales are flying high while economy cars cant't be given away right now.

Undercutters and low ballers have always been a thorn in the side of working pros, but they generally cut their own noses off while doing so. The sooner most low ballers spite themselves, the sooner working pros can absorb the lost market share. When the 35mm slr came out, Joe Shmo tried to make an added income by using its flexiblity and this in turn caused loss of business from traditional view camera pros. The result was the industry making 35 mm and 120 format films higher quality where traditional view camera photogs could switch and use the speed and efficiency of 35mm or med. format. This with being a better quality shooters and marketing brought the industry back into the light of working pros.

Digital is a new revelation for P&S shooters, other mateurs, low ballaers and real pros. It will force those who want to greatly supplement or make a fair living at pro-photography to adapt and change,

Undercutters, wanabes and low ballers will lose interest in doing such and the market will reflect this. As time moves by sophisticated clients be they portrait/wedding, commercial and clients of Pj's will see that low ballers are often not dependable nor good enough and these more sophisticated clients will search out real pros.

Is it going to be easy, quick and a joyful panacea? NOPE but name any real business that is??? Dot Coms... DOT BOMBS, CAR INDUSTRY, MERGER HEAVEN to survive, discount stores, Hah real easy sure even for Wally World it's a slugfest, Sports teams, most lose money, You see my point?

Shooting for fun as a hobby or amteur is free of this. Amateurs who think they can make a quick buck and undercut pros may get away with it for a while but soon they tire of the B.S. and work that goes along to make a buck or two. Professionals know the B.S. side of things be it photography, music, cars sales or whatever. They accept the work and the B.S. in order to take something atleast in photography that is to be a passion and make some form of living off of it.

I knew I would not get rich shooting as a pro, I just accepted that making a decent living and maybe giving up a better car or a bigger home etc. is one thing in my quest to make a living as a shooting pro.

Lowballers have always been a throrn, creative business types learn to deal with these and adapt and accept fluctuations in income and business cylces.

People who want beautiful imagery will always search out a pro they can afford and one they understand will give them REAL VALUE ( not just low price ) for their money.

mauriceramirez said:

mauriceramirez said:

It's all too frequent that I meet 'professionals' who have the
personality of a toilet seat. I'm sorry, unless you're the best
photographer in town or the universe, just being a good
photographer isn't enough. Self promotion is the key.

Click to expand...

Sad, and funny at the same time, but true.

All the low-ballers in this business pretty much killed it. I make
a lot more compared to my pj colleagues just by doing wedding and
corporate stuff. And my work isn't even as good as some of theirs.
Frankly, in order to maintain a standard of living I've gotten into
real estate. Keep in mind that I'm very good at photo, and have a
lot of industry experience and big-name contacts, but I would still
work 80 hours/week for 52 weeks a year in order to live well.

I feel sorry for the newbies and especially all the photography
students about to finish college about to get into this. They've
chosen a hard life for themselves.

Basically, if you're only NOW starting out in photography and you
choose this as a profession, you can basically kiss the other
really good things in life goodbye, like home ownership, health
care, family vacations, private school for the kids, etc. This is
perhaps not true for those who are either amazing business people
or amazing photographers, but they're not exactly "starting out",
either.

there was a time not so long ago when photographers, even just the
good ones, could make a good living, but lowballers have ended that
era.

-m

--
http://www.mauriceramirez.com

Click to expand...

Doug, very reasonable points in your post. I appreciate very much the information and your point of view.

Thanks much indeed.

miguel

Newk,

I see well your point. I love photography and I admire the people that are able to cut down the salary to do what they like most.

I am personally not unhappy in my job, although it may get stressing sometimes. I wonder what bothered you so much that you were ready to get 5 times less money to become a photographer . ops! I missed the point it was you passion for photography what forced you to make the change.
Congratulations and my appreciation for your feedback.

Miguel

thanks much for your feedback. very interesting and inspiring.

Best,

Miguel

Guys, I appreciate the heartfelt honesty and all, but it's not just about blue collar or white collar. Nor is it just a middle class thing. But the middle class is just barely making. The larger picture is very true... I've seen a helluva lot of W2's and bank statements in my other job and you would be SHOCKED at how many people, no matter WHERE they live, even here in Silicon Valley, who are two paychecks away from broke.

But this is especially regarding photographers in general. They as a whole are a lot less better off than they were even only a few years ago.

The photography business as we know it, the professional imaging artist as independent businessperson is quickly dying as a career path.

The editorial market is already in the toilet. How many of the guys shooting at the Olympics actually OWNED any of their images? I would guess less than 1 percent of them. The other niches are quickly following suit, of course, especially as those same stubborn editorial shooters take their bad habits into the commercial, advertising, wedding, and studio industry to make their nut.

We all screw ourselves every day. How many posts are their in here about people not having a clue about the most essential and basic aspects of copyright law???? And yet, this is supposedly a "pro" forum. Not one, single time have i ever come here and read, "how much should i charge to license this image, for this usage?". Nope. It's always, "uhhh, client wants to buy my copyright. How much?"

don't board a sinking ship. pro photography is now about business, nothing else. it is better now to learn and enjoy it as a hobby, and when you DO get a paying gig, make sure you know what you're doing.

As for the guys charging 1000 for a wedding, your cost of living should be much less, right? So that part of the equation should work itself out. The really telling part -- the real crime -- is that here, in the same area as myself, in the expensive SF bay area, there are photographers actually doing a lot of $1000 weddings. (Just look up Craigslist.com) Those are the guys who are cutting our their own throats.

And in the long run, all of ours too.

-m

John said:

Yep. You are in a Blue Collar location. Middle class folks barely
making it. I'm surprised anyone will pay $1000. for a wedding in
your location. Good luck!!!
--
John

Click to expand...

--
http://www.mauriceramirez.com

John,

Though I empathise with some aspects you make, I again point out that things are cyclical. Everytime photography saw new technologies come fourth you see a preponderance of Joe Shmoes trying to think that they can make a buck or two. Yes they add to the complexities of making a living at pro-photography, but in the end they kill themselves off before they may kill you off.

If I recall correctly the average business person has 2-3 business failures in their life before they make it. It is about perserverance and making sure ( in our case ) that pro-photography is your calling. Nobody promises us anything be it photography or other. Yes, undercutting wannabes may deal blows to our profession but the cream rises to the top. Wannabes steal business away from good musicians and singers too, but the cream rises to the top.

Anyone who thinks going into a REAL business will be simple and easy aswell as a piece of cake, is deluding themselves. It requires knowledge, skills, sacrifice ( sometimes more than others ) networking, marketing and SELLING YOUR BUTT OFF!!!

Is pro-photography different today than in 1994 or 1984? YES! but it was different in 1984 than it was in 1974 or 1964. Pros will adjust or if they truly lack the perserverance move on to other careers ( which is fine, no shame in that ) wannabes will blow their own proverbial brains out even faster under tougher times than under good times. When business of photography is on a rise the wannabes will hold out longer, undercutting enough but still making fair money for their generally lousy work and poor ethics. In tougher times the money will dry up for them too and soon they will leave or at least there will be fewer of them. The industry will come back in varying states to the established pros.

Maybe it may mean you taking on a second job for a while or so, but if you close up shop totally you will need another job anyways. Giving up is easy we have all done so in our lives over various things. But if it is your desire to make some sort of living or to supplemnnt your living as a REAL PRO, you will find a way.

Pro-photographers rarely get rich, but you can make a decent living, it may be harder and take longer than you had hoped but this is for many businesses not just photography.

mauriceramirez said:

But this is especially regarding photographers in general. They
as a whole are a lot less better off than they were even only a few
years ago.

The photography business as we know it, the professional imaging
artist as independent businessperson is quickly dying as a career
path.

The editorial market is already in the toilet. How many of the
guys shooting at the Olympics actually OWNED any of their images?
I would guess less than 1 percent of them. The other niches are
quickly following suit, of course, especially as those same
stubborn editorial shooters take their bad habits into the
commercial, advertising, wedding, and studio industry to make their
nut.

We all screw ourselves every day. How many posts are their in here
about people not having a clue about the most essential and basic
aspects of copyright law???? And yet, this is supposedly a "pro"
forum. Not one, single time have i ever come here and read, "how
much should i charge to license this image, for this usage?".
Nope. It's always, "uhhh, client wants to buy my copyright. How
much?"

don't board a sinking ship. pro photography is now about business,
nothing else. it is better now to learn and enjoy it as a hobby,
and when you DO get a paying gig, make sure you know what you're
doing.

As for the guys charging 1000 for a wedding, your cost of living
should be much less, right? So that part of the equation should
work itself out. The really telling part -- the real crime -- is
that here, in the same area as myself, in the expensive SF bay
area, there are photographers actually doing a lot of $1000
weddings. (Just look up Craigslist.com) Those are the guys who
are cutting our their own throats.

And in the long run, all of ours too.

-m

John said:

Yep. You are in a Blue Collar location. Middle class folks barely
making it. I'm surprised anyone will pay $1000. for a wedding in
your location. Good luck!!!
--
John

Click to expand...

--
http://www.mauriceramirez.com

Click to expand...

Miguel G207943 said:

A question for you pros. Are these numbers real? Is it true that
the earnings of 50% of the photographers are between
$17,740-$34,910.

Without having to disclose your salary, it would be useful
information to many of us to know from you pro, what is your area
of photography and what are the earnings expected for that area
according to your experience and knowledge. Statistics are
sometimes a bit misleading.

Click to expand...

From this side of the pond those sound very low...like £10,000 - £19,000 at today's xchange rate. When I started as a darkroom tech, lowest of the low, I was making the lower limit. Publishing isn't a highly paid sector of the market but even a junior photographer would expect the upper end of that scale.

I'm a staffer the UK and I earn well over the $34,910 figure, I also have a company car, and my equipment is providied. I also get 25 days hols (+ bank hols), extra money for working weekends and time off in lieu. (All ex's paid)

I work a 5 day week, when I'm not shooting I'm in the office. I live in London.

I work for 2 specialist magazines, one covering power and motor boats costing from £50,000 - £9M, one sailing yachts £12,000 - £400,000 both of which belong to the same publisher. I have a love of the sea, sailing and photography.

I studied photography for 4 years in college, and worked in a darkroom for 2 more. While working in the darkroom, I was also a studio tech, wire tech and photographer.

I still don't think I'm on enough money (is there such a thing)...ok then, I don't think I'm on a lot of money, but at the end of the day I travel the world photographing yachts and motorboats, life isn't that bad

--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Always give the client a vertical-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I shoot on 1.D.s, 35mm and 6x7 Pentax
http://www.photo.net/photodb/folder.tcl?folder_id=280578

Everything goes in cylcles, that's for sure For example, IT is in a real slump after riding high for a long time. Offshoring is all the rage -- even though we KNOW that most companies will find that they spend more trying to save money than by hiring local professionals.

Then again -- some careers do just evaporate. Cars replaced horses for transportation.

What person makes their living as a "typist" anymore? Even the bosses have computers with spell checkers these days.

I think the jury is out on whether photography will remain a viable profession for the numbers of folks that it used to. The barrier to entry has been lowered. More people can make better pictures. What it takes to REALLY stand out, to provide what other folks simply can't -- becomes harder.

I'm one of the bottom feeders. I like to have photo equipment for my own use, so I sell myself occassionally to make income to pay for the equipment. But I couldn't do that if the barrier hadn't been lowered by digital photography and if I couldn't produce an acceptable result.

My clients know they won't get from me what a $5,000 wedding photographer would give them. So the few guys working in that realm have nothing to worry about from me. But the middle to low range guys who are depending on photography for a living are endangered as my $100 per hour rate which gives the client full use of the digital files -- comes with a quality that makes me more attractive than the $1500 per wedding guy.

And that's fine with me as I make my living developing software (a much lower level of living than during the late nineties through 2002) and all I want is to pay for my expensive photography hobby.

I had a request for softball photos from a parent who wanted 15 -- but they balked at the $3 per photo price (which I thought was really low, set only to pay for the hosting fees). Why? Well, they had taken photos themselves, and they liked by photos but only $2 each worth. Did I sell my photos? Nope. Not a chance.

But the economics lesson is the same. Everyone has a camera. People can get photos they like by themselves. They don't need a photographer.

This doesn't cover the high end with very talented photographers and clients who appreciate the art.

But there may indeed be a sea change this time with digital that simply shrinks the market in a way that cars did to horses. I mean...there are still SOME cowboy jobs, just not as many as there used to be.

Lee

Actually, it wasn't a passion for photography that made me quit. It was pure and simple job stress -- mostly a partner that fought everything I did but did little constructive. We started with a small business (newspaper) and it grew rapidly. Before long it was 10 times the size plus we had added a few smaller newspapers spread out over two states, several hundred miles apart. I never set out to become a wealthy businessman and money was never too important to me. When you have a lot of money but no time for your family, a good income means little. I sold out when I was 35 and never thought I'd have to work again.

But a divorce and some bad investments turned that around. If I was to go back to work I wanted it to be something I enjoyed and something I knew, but that could be done with few or no employes. I tried a couple things (real estate and retail) and then started doing desktop publishing and tech writing. I added photography as a normal extension of it. But photography was the part I enjoyed the most, so I began consentrating more and more on that end of it. Now it's 90% photography.

Oh yeah, and money is now important again. LOL When you've got bills to pay and nothing to pay them with, money gets REAL important!

Miguel G said:

Newk,

I see well your point. I love photography and I admire the people
that are able to cut down the salary to do what they like most.

I am personally not unhappy in my job, although it may get
stressing sometimes. I wonder what bothered you so much that you
were ready to get 5 times less money to become a photographer .
ops! I missed the point it was you passion for photography what
forced you to make the change.
Congratulations and my appreciation for your feedback.

Miguel

Click to expand...

LeeBase said:

Everything goes in cylcles, that's for sure For example, IT is in
a real slump after riding high for a long time. Offshoring is all
the rage

Click to expand...

Yes, that is because the potential for profit dropped out of IT. But nothing says it will always be as it is today. Things change, jobs come and go and comeback at times depending on economics.

LeeBase said:

Then again -- some careers do just evaporate. Cars replaced horses
for transportation.

Click to expand...

True, but what has replaced photography? Nothing. People will still want professional style photos. The level of income in such field is like all businesses dependant on the economic suroundings of any particular market. Low balling wannabes do steal business away, but that has always been the case to varying extents.

LeeBase said:

My clients know they won't get from me what a $5,000 wedding
photographer would give them. So the few guys working in that
realm have nothing to worry about from me. But the middle to low
range guys who are depending on photography for a living are
endangered as my $100 per hour rate which gives the client full use
of the digital files -- comes with a quality that makes me more
attractive than the $1500 per wedding guy.

Click to expand...

Why are you selling yourself out? You realise you are "whoring " yourself out but you tell us that is acceptable to you, why? Why not adjust your pricing to suit your quality within your market range and geographic area. If you truly think you can provide a professional quality product ( I'm not saying to the level of the $5000 wedding pro you noted ) why are you giving much of yourself away? May I suggest why and please take no offence, you lack confidence in charging more and do not want to accept responsibiilty for your shooting style and final product delivered, so therefor you charge less and give more away knowing that it is an 'OUT' for you if the product is not exactly what the customer thought he or she would get. Because of this you are making life in the industry harder for those who are at the next level above you and have a growing confidence in their work. You may think the $300-$500 you make on a Saturday or Sunday shooting a wedding is gravy for you, but it is not, the few bucks you made do not outweigh the time you gave and the loss of potential income because you go and say to the client " Here is your digital files, it's your problem now." Again please do take offence I'm just trying to shine a light on you to maybe have you look at things differently. You sell yourself as a pro or you would not be charging at all, but you do not want to take full responsibilty.

LeeBase said:

And that's fine with me as I make my living developing software (a
much lower level of living than during the late nineties through
2002) and all I want is to pay for my expensive photography hobby.

Click to expand...

You just verify that you have no intention to adjust pricing to support any quality you may have. You are telling me that you either don't care and/or have no cinfidence so it's just a so what thing for you. You are not doing yourself a favour and especially a client who wants to use you because you are cheap. Oh I'm sure they think initially that they are getting a steal but in the end I'm sure they know they are not getting what they hoped for. Again please I'm not trying to offend you, but you are the one who is spiting yourself. You are continuing to lower the income bar and soon it will be too low for even you and you will say" Meh it's not worth it to waste a weekend to only make a few bucks." You will then reach a crossroads, move on and stop doing any photography for money ( 9/10 entyry-level shooters and wannabes do this ) or you learn to make it a business and run with it all the pain, glory, stress, joy and other things to come and like 1/10 remaining you fight to make a living of sorts.

LeeBase said:

I had a request for softball photos from a parent who wanted 15 --
but they balked at the $3 per photo price (which I thought was
really low, set only to pay for the hosting fees). Why? Well,
they had taken photos themselves, and they liked by photos but only
$2 each worth. Did I sell my photos? Nope.

Click to expand...

If they liked what they had previously shot, why were they asking you to sell yourself then? They thought they would get you to lower your price for the 'gig' you held out, they did not get you and in the end some yahoo in the group snapped pics themself. The parents may have been happy, but it was because they had no basis to really compare. Your fault was not selling yourself and product well enough to get $3.00 each. This is a result of my points above, you either did not care enough or had too little confidence. Business is TOUGH and it requires confidence. For instance in the 1980's GM knew most of its cars were junk and hardly of the quality one expects. Did they go hide in a corner? close up shop? Nope they pushed telling the public that they made GREAT CARS and that the public should buy them. Even though GM knew it was a streatch in truth, they had CONFIDENCE and sold it hard to keep money coming in. While this was happening they reevaluated themselves and began to make institutional changes. You should have done they same with the $3 pics, but it was not important to you, if you required it to feed yourself and pay your studio rent, you may have thought differntly.

LeeBase said:

But the economics lesson is the same. Everyone has a camera.
People can get photos they like by themselves. They don't need a
photographer.

Click to expand...

No they can't, some may think so initially and this has always been the case atleast since the last 40 or so years. Pros must sell themselves, not have it the other way around just sitting there waiting for clients to see them.

LeeBase said:

Lee

Click to expand...

You asked some good questions...and rather than writing piecemeal...I'll just start fresh.

Why so low? Do I lack confidence? No, I lack experience. Well, ok...maybe confidence and experience are related. Keep in mind that I've been very successful as a consultant selling my services in another field. I'm not unaware of pricing issues. I'm not unaware that the price you set for yourself affects what "value" others place on you.

However -- consider the following.

Do I have a portfolio? No, I do not. I've shot 4 weddings but all of them with my previous digi-cam, the Nikon Coolpix 990 or my film camera (and I don't have the photos). Haven't shot any wedding since getting my "pro" equipment, but I do have 2 booked.

Am I great at posing or lighting? Not a bit. Something I'm working on. I'm a "candid/photo journalist" style shooter mostly.

Can I work with people? Yes. I have very good people skills. I'm constantly told I'm "doing a good job" when I'm shooting and I used to be baffled because "how can you know, you can't see the prints yet". But they are referring to my manor.

At the rates I charge I can be VERY upfront with my experience level. I even go so far as to reccomend that folks go to a more experienced photographer and let them know what they are likely to get that they won't get from me. In doing so, I am managing their expectations.

And then I exceed their expectations with my work....most of the time anyway.

As for the prints -- I have no interest in making prints. I always make one set because it just doesn't feel right to give folks a CD and say "thanks for the $500". And they get to see the photos, printed well, with the right colors. Who knows what they'll see on their computer monitor.

I have no worries about them scanning or copying because I got all the money I wanted to make upfront. And it's a competitive advantage. And I don't have to hassle with them coming back and wanting one print of this and two of that. They can order prints from my website (fulfilled by someone else, and I just get a check) -- or they can go print themselves.

Why not charge more? When I can produce better quality, on demand, with confidence -- then I will. I've been "whoring" myself out for a long time. At the height of the IT cylcle, I was getting a really great rate for my time. But I didn't start out at that rate. I started low and increased the rate as my experience warranted.

And it works for me. I shoot a lot for free for my church -- and my photos are on the walls and people like them alot, though no one ever orders any.

But -- I got a gig shooting a wedding rehearsal dinner...for my "whorish" rate of $100 per shooting hour. 2.5 hours....oh, but do I know someone who could shoot the wedding. Well...I could for the same rate -- or I can give you the name of a professional videographer for $3000. He'll make you a wonderful wedding movie, where what I can produce is more like a home movie.

All said and done, $850 in my pocket. Which is just shy of paying for my camera. Oh....but I got two weddings from that for next summer. And I'm getting requests for senior pictures and family portraits.

Uggg....I'm not good at portraiture...but I can work on it, and make money while I do....which will hopefully pay for my $3500 investment in the two year time frame I promised my wife when I convinced her to allow me to make the purchase.

All of which goes to make the point the the lower barrier to entry that digital has brought to the market has allowed folks like me to eat at the low end of the business.

You say "but those folks won't last". But why shouldn't I last. I have another $3000 or more in "I wanna buy" that will have to wait until I've paid for what I've already purchased.

And if I don't last, there's more and more like me.

Which means nothing to the mid to high end of the market. Those folks who's quality takes your breath away and who have access to plenty of folks with money to pay.

But I don't think the lower end will recover.

Just like the world will never be the same for software developers now that we have to compete with India, Russia, China etc.

Lee

I wonder how well does those averages represents the full time photographers. Let's say for someone like me who has a full time job and then work as a photographer on days off and makes only 15K per year. How is my 15K represented in that average?

--
Simon-Ph

Leebase.

Your candor is great.

I undestand how it feels starting out in wedding photography. It's easy not to have confidence. My first few almost made me sick. But you get through, you learn and get better. You then get better confidence and sales skills to begin charging a fair price for what you believe you are worth. ( try this with your next booking add even $25.00 hr. more to your hourly rates, I bet you still get the business and make a little more money for yourself )This will vary from person to person, but you will get the hang of it, trust me if you really care to make a fair buck out of it all.

You reccomending better more involved photographers is great, this way clients will know better what to expect from you and not think you are just trying to steal business.

Anywayas I was not trying to slag you, but in reality if lowballers keep droping the bar the desire to shoot for a few bucks will knock a lot of them out.

From my initial sizing you up. I sense a person who would desire to move your skills up and make fair money for your effort. You are as I said on a crossroads, you are not in just to do things for free, but you are not sure how much you and your work is worth. Keep at it and you will make fair money to supplement your lifestyle and will not be seen only as a guy who steals weddings from more fulltime pros.

NewK,

It is funny how life evolves, eh!

Your history is indeed more interesting than I expected.

Congratulations again for driving your live in the direction that your heart tells you.

Miguel

I am not sure how the statistics are made, but I guess that the labor department will include only the people which primary ocupation (income) is photography.

So if your income is mainly from a different occupation probably it will not be part of the statistics, but I don'y know were they set the limit.

Miguel

Simon-Ph said:

I wonder how well does those averages represents the full time
photographers. Let's say for someone like me who has a full time
job and then work as a photographer on days off and makes only 15K
per year. How is my 15K represented in that average?

--
Simon-Ph

Click to expand...

I think everything goes full circle, I have spent the last 28 years in the floor covering business, had a bad accident on my new Harley, and during recovery I went into photography, (my longtime passion), I now do photography part time and still run my flooring business. I can tell you that many years ago hardwood floors were in, then carpet, tile, vinyl, then right back to wood again, Starting out as a carpet installer, this trade paid a better then fair salary at the time, (1979- $50,000.00 net anually) if you leaned your trade well and marketed your craft properly, you could, as I did, earn 80-100,000.00 anually, which was quite good for that time period. Today, lowballers, legal & illegal aliens, have ruined the business and retailers are not able to find quality craftsmen, soon the real pros will, and this has allready started, be able to name there price.

I think photography as well as many other business, will follow the same pattern, the wannabies & lowballers will lose ground and there will be a demand for those who are true pros. I live in the NY area and find that there appears to be no lack of work for anyone who puts out the effort, I can't speak for other parts of the country, but in 2 years I have shot some commercial, advertising, 1 wedding, parties, event & real estate photos. I guess I have a bit of a head start as I have been in business before, but I truly belive that the oppurtunity is there for anyone who really wants it.

Good luck & never quit.
Dennis

You pretty much have it nailed. I might quibble on the "then you'll charge a fair price" -- I think I'm charging a fair price for my current level of expertise.

But make no mistake, I'm working very hard on my skills and I'm not taking things lightly. I don't see myself doing this full time, ever, as I really do make a decent living as a software developer -- and I also like that job very much.

But I like taking photos as well, and I like having good equipment. I no longer make the kind of money that allows me to spend 10 grand on a hobby. But if I at least break even (when factoring in tax writeoffs) then I've made my goal.

I'll probably get to the point where I'm doing a half dozen or so weddings a year. And I'll probably get to the point of charging $1500 to $2500 for them.

But that will come as my experience and expertise fairly warrant that price.

And if it never does...then that's ok too.

But back to the topic of this thread. There is no doubt in my mind that I'm enabled to do this because of digital photography -- as will others. The barrier to entry for professional photography has been lowered....the ability to learn and improve is much easier.

Take me....I've shot 17,000 photos with my digital camera since last Oct. I'm shooting all the time. Shooting at church. Shooting my kid's (3 daughters) sports. Shooting family events. Shooting, shooting, shooting.

And not just shooting. But I'm learning. I'm on the boards asking questions, hanging my "dirty laundry" out for others to critique and then learning from their experience.

Before the internet -- before digital photography -- you simply couldn't learn as fast as you can now. And it's not just me.

So sure -- there will be those "I gotta camera, let me shoot a wedding" folks that will find out that it's really work and they'll stop.

But there's others, like me, who will put the effort in.

And when you increase supply -- you lower prices.

Lee

From what I've read from you I'd say you sound like you are not a real worry for other pros. You sound like you care enough to get better at your craft ( even if part tme ) and you undestand that undecutting does not serve you, the market or the other pros well.

I think you have a grasp on what I'm saying about cheapie undercutters and how they have always been around. Yes they can be a pain, but my optimistic side and confidence tells me that these too can be overcome, be you a full timer or part timer.

I wish you the best and never stop tryng to learn this most interesting craft. Open minds make you a better artist, salesperson and pro in general.

Cheers!

LeeBase said:

You pretty much have it nailed. I might quibble on the "then
you'll charge a fair price" -- I think I'm charging a fair price
for my current level of expertise.

But make no mistake, I'm working very hard on my skills and I'm not
taking things lightly. I don't see myself doing this full time,
ever, as I really do make a decent living as a software developer
-- and I also like that job very much.

But I like taking photos as well, and I like having good equipment.
I no longer make the kind of money that allows me to spend 10 grand
on a hobby. But if I at least break even (when factoring in tax
writeoffs) then I've made my goal.

I'll probably get to the point where I'm doing a half dozen or so
weddings a year. And I'll probably get to the point of charging
$1500 to $2500 for them.

But that will come as my experience and expertise fairly warrant
that price.

And if it never does...then that's ok too.

But back to the topic of this thread. There is no doubt in my mind
that I'm enabled to do this because of digital photography -- as
will others. The barrier to entry for professional photography has
been lowered....the ability to learn and improve is much easier.

Take me....I've shot 17,000 photos with my digital camera since
last Oct. I'm shooting all the time. Shooting at church.
Shooting my kid's (3 daughters) sports. Shooting family events.
Shooting, shooting, shooting.

And not just shooting. But I'm learning. I'm on the boards asking
questions, hanging my "dirty laundry" out for others to critique
and then learning from their experience.

Before the internet -- before digital photography -- you simply
couldn't learn as fast as you can now. And it's not just me.

So sure -- there will be those "I gotta camera, let me shoot a
wedding" folks that will find out that it's really work and they'll
stop.

But there's others, like me, who will put the effort in.

And when you increase supply -- you lower prices.

Lee

Click to expand...

Phileas Fogg said:

and you undestand that undecutting does not serve you, the market
or the other pros well.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure we are in complete agreement here. I think pricing is many things, including a competitive tool. A person who prices themselves low is not somehow dishonorable.

On the other hand -- I think money is just as good in my pocket as it is in someone elses -- and just as I strove to be able to get the highest rates in my software development, I'll strive to be able to get the highest rates in my photography that my skill and experience and business sense will allow.

We tend to think that price and quality are connected...and most of the time there is a correlation. Yet -- sometimes the market changes. I'm better now as a software developer than I was 3 years ago -- yet I'm making 40% less. And I'm greatful to be making what I'm making. The market simply changed. And now, outsourcing is going to continue to apply price pressure to my career.

It's easy to say "damn the outsourcers". But we live in a free market economy. There is no guild of professionals holding trade secrets and agreeing to keep their prices at a certain level.

In software development the easier it is to learn something -- the less interested I am in doing it. That's why I try to stay clear of Microsoft products. They are just fine (most of the time) but they are cheaper and easier to learn -- thus not in the best interests of a professional who wants to maximize his income.

Digital photography and the internet, in my opinion, have indeed made photography easier. Not easy. But easier -- and less expensive.

Now there is a difference between me, a 20 year veteran of software development and the average "I know how to make a web page" college rookie. And that difference is worth money. But I am still affected by the over all economics of my industry where it is easier to become a software developer and it is easier to get cheaper labor from abroad.

I think the same is true of photography -- minus the "outsourcing" aspect. The economics of this industry is trending downward for the professional. Not ALL of them, there will still be a bell curve and folks on the "get's paid very well" side of things. It's just that the entire bell curve is shifting to "less pay".

Lee

I think the big change in society over the past 20 years is that we are a much more visual culture and images bombard us everywhere. And they are very, very good. No longer do we pause and admire an image because it is so breathtaking or well done. And every person is an image maker. Every person has a digital cam (or so it seems), and every person has a camcorder (I don't, never have owned one).

Meanwhile, the written word is being ignored. People don't read. And if they do read, they want short sentences, short packets of information and embellished with, guess what! More images and flashy graphics. Or so we are told (my day job is in the newspaper business, also dying).

The best we can hope for is to be a part of those situations where an outside photographer makes the most sense. That is, for me, the wedding. I don't like doing them. I don't like the stress. And I have seen bookings decrease dramatically in the last two years. And the brides expect all negs/digital files. Seldom do I get reprint orders.

I think the photo equipment industry needs to recognize these trends and realize pros simply won't be able to replace their DSLR every 18 months with a new model. Technology needs to level off and let earnings catch up to it.

I wish I knew what the solution was. If I did, I wouldn't be working 18 hours a day trying to just keep my head above water. My wife just lost her job (her boss, self-employed for 40 years, had to all but close his business and get a job at Home Depot). The newspaper I work for has reorganized, due to, I hear, a bankruptcy. And the magazines just aren't buying this year.

At least my garden has a good crop of weeds we can eat this winter.