What would you do?

marlinspike · Aug 27, 2004

I'm a bit torn. I've had my eye on a 20D for a long time now, but it looks like even if I sell my G5, it will be new year's by the time I can afford one. I've been trying to stay strong, but I'm faltering. The fact that I have enough money right now to be able to buy a used digital rebel with kit lens is very tempting. The thing is, I have a feeling I would be very unhappy with the digital rebel for the following reasons:
The startup time. It's the same 2 seconds as the 10D, right?
Am I right that above ISO 400 is too noisy to be good?
AI Servo is only in sport mode, does the hack undo this?
Is the AF fast? I have a feeling it will be slower than I'd like for sports
Is there shutter lag?
The plastic body is pretty cheap feeling, and is not black.

So, if anybody can answer my questions I'd appreciate it. Also, considering the things I'm thinking about, would you get the digital rebel or hold out 5 months for a 20D?
Thanks,
Richard, torn
--
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Adam Gardner · Aug 27, 2004

is the D70 or a 10D an option?

marlinspike · Aug 27, 2004

The D70 isn't because I want to go with Canon. If history proves as any sort of guide, I like Canon more, I like their lens lineup more, and I'm allready familiar with the controls from using a canon film slr (no lens investment since the film slr isn't mine).

The 10D I don't think is an option because it seems like used 10D's are still around $1100, so that would still mean either selling my g5 or saving up for 5-6 months (except for $10/week from delivering newspapers for the school, my money will all be coming at once in the form of gifts). I would consider selling my g5 to get a 10D, except it seems the 10D has the same limitations as a digital rebel (long start up, af not being all that fast, noise, also, since it can't take EF-S, I would need considerable money to get a decent zoom with some range). Maybe I'm asking this a bit prematurely though. Who knows, maybe the pictures I'll be taking at the soccer games will sell like hotcakes and I'll be able to put together $600 in a month, but I doubt that.
Richard

Adam Gardner said:
is the D70 or a 10D an option?

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photobox54 · Aug 27, 2004

Have you got something coming up in the next 5 months you can't do with the G5?
--
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marlinspike · Aug 27, 2004

Nothing important, but then again none of my pictures are. It's just kinda aggravating. My biggest pet peeve is not being able to go about 50ISO, followed by long start up time, followed by slow auto focus. There are others (dynamic range for one), but those are the biggest. I think if I had never found this website I would be happier with the camera.
Richard

photobox54 said:
Have you got something coming up in the next 5 months you can't do
with the G5?
--
Dwain
http://www.photobox54.com

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Joseph S Wisniewski · Aug 27, 2004

marlinspike said:
I'm a bit torn. I've had my eye on a 20D for a long time now, but
it looks like even if I sell my G5, it will be new year's by the
time I can afford one.

I think that would work out absolutly perfectly. I'll bet it'll be new years by the time 20D are in the distribution channel to the point where you can actually get one without spending 2 months on a "backorder list".

That will buy you enough time to look at what you need to "hold you" for a while in equipment.

marlinspike said:
I've been trying to stay strong, but I'm
faltering. The fact that I have enough money right now to be able
to buy a used digital rebel with kit lens is very tempting. The
thing is, I have a feeling I would be very unhappy with the digital
rebel for the following reasons:
The startup time. It's the same 2 seconds as the 10D, right?
Am I right that above ISO 400 is too noisy to be good?
AI Servo is only in sport mode, does the hack undo this?
Is the AF fast? I have a feeling it will be slower than I'd like
for sports
Is there shutter lag?
The plastic body is pretty cheap feeling, and is not black.
So, if anybody can answer my questions I'd appreciate it. Also,
considering the things I'm thinking about, would you get the
digital rebel or hold out 5 months for a 20D?

If it were me (And I'm me, you're not me. You're you. I'm not you. cho cho ga joob) I'd wait.

--
A cyberstalker told me not to post anymore...
So I'm posting even more!

Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

marlinspike · Aug 27, 2004

Joseph S. Wisniewski said:
I think that would work out absolutly perfectly. I'll bet it'll be
new years by the time 20D are in the distribution channel to the
point where you can actually get one without spending 2 months on a
"backorder list".

What do you think the price will be by then?

Joseph S Wisniewski said:
If it were me (And I'm me, you're not me. You're you. I'm not you.
cho cho ga joob) I'd wait.

cho cho ga joob? Anyways, I think I'm going to do my best to hang tight, but another one of my problems with the G5 is nobody take you seriously, heck I don't take me seriously, with a point and shoot.

Richard, hanging tight, I think, and hoping the kids here that are so rich will buy lots of the photos I take (when I asked somebody if they had any ideas on how I can get some money together, some pot head told me he could get $600 in a couple hours...I said no thanks).
--
http://davidson.smugmug.com
See my profile for equipment and wish list

Joseph S Wisniewski · Aug 27, 2004

marlinspike said:
Nothing important, but then again none of my pictures are. It's
just kinda aggravating. My biggest pet peeve is not being able to
go about 50ISO, followed by long start up time, followed by slow
auto focus. There are others (dynamic range for one), but those are
the biggest. I think if I had never found this website I would be
happier with the camera.

Now, that I can help with.

First, are you looking at prints on the sceen, or printing them?

A G5 ISO 100 might look noisy on the screen, at 100% magnification, but printed as an 8x10, it's not bad. Even a 200 isn't bad.

And, if you want to see it even nicer, try a good noise filter program.

I recommend the free version of Helicon noise filter, as fast and powerful.

http://helicon.com.ua/pages/index.php?noisefilter

--
A cyberstalker told me not to post anymore...
So I'm posting even more!

Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

marlinspike · Aug 27, 2004

Joseph S. Wisniewski said:
Now, that I can help with.

First, are you looking at prints on the sceen, or printing them?

A bit of both

Joseph S Wisniewski said:
A G5 ISO 100 might look noisy on the screen, at 100% magnification,
but printed as an 8x10, it's not bad. Even a 200 isn't bad.

I've found that even at ISO 50, unless I turn up the luminance noise reduction in the PS CS RAW conversion to about 40 or so, I can see noise in 8.5x11 pictures. ISO 100 can make it, but it take a lot of noise reduction (more than can be done in PS CS, and almost the most that can be done in noiseware).

Joseph S Wisniewski said:
And, if you want to see it even nicer, try a good noise filter
program.

I was usign noiseware, but for some reason if I save a photo in PS, remove the noise in noiseware, and open up PS to print, the picture will have astrong print to it (as seen on the screen, so it's not a printer issue).

Joseph S Wisniewski said:
http://helicon.com.ua/pages/index.php?noisefilter

For some reason the webpage won't work for me. I've tried going to the homepage too.
Thanks,
Richard

Joseph S Wisniewski said:
--
A cyberstalker told me not to post anymore...
So I'm posting even more!

Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

--
http://davidson.smugmug.com
See my profile for equipment and wish list

Joseph S Wisniewski · Aug 27, 2004

marlinspike said:
Joseph S. Wisniewski said:

I think that would work out absolutly perfectly. I'll bet it'll be
new years by the time 20D are in the distribution channel to the
point where you can actually get one without spending 2 months on a
"backorder list".

Click to expand...

What do you think the price will be by then?

Probably $50 or $100 cheaper than it is when it first hits the street. Dealers won't have much room, but as supplies loosen, they'll have a little.

marlinspike said:
marlinspike said:

If it were me (And I'm me, you're not me. You're you. I'm not you.
cho cho ga joob) I'd wait.

Click to expand...

cho cho ga joob?

A very famous song "I am the Walrus" by a very famous group called the Beatles. The particular line goes:

I am he, as you are he,
As you are me, and we are all together...

The refrain of the song is:

I am the egg man, he is the egg man,
I am the Walrus. Cho cho ga joob.

So, after I typed that "I'm not you, you're not me, I am me", it obviously needed a cho cho ga joob.

marlinspike said:
Anyways, I think I'm going to do my best to hang
tight, but another one of my problems with the G5 is nobody take
you seriously, heck I don't take me seriously, with a point and
shoot.

Get a big Canon flash and a flip bracket. You'll be able to use it for event photography when you get the 20D, as well as right now.

Put any camera (even a little G) on a big bracket with a big flash, and suddenly you're "the official event photographer", "the pro", "the Paparazzi", the man to be respected and feared...

marlinspike said:
Richard, hanging tight, I think, and hoping the kids here that are
so rich will buy lots of the photos I take (when I asked somebody
if they had any ideas on how I can get some money together, some
pot head told me he could get $600 in a couple hours...I said no
thanks).

Find a wedding photographer or event photographer who needs an assistant. You'll get paid badly (but might be able to pocket $100 for most of a Saturday), work hard, but learn an awful lot.

--
A cyberstalker told me not to post anymore...
So I'm posting even more!

Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

Lou Cohen · Aug 27, 2004

Joseph S. Wisniewski said:
And, if you want to see it even nicer, try a good noise filter
program.

I recommend the free version of Helicon noise filter, as fast and
powerful.

http://helicon.com.ua/pages/index.php?noisefilter

Hi Joe
That link is dead, as is its home page. Is there an update?
Thx
Lou

marlinspike · Aug 27, 2004

Joseph S. Wisniewski said:
Probably $50 or $100 cheaper than it is when it first hits the
street. Dealers won't have much room, but as supplies loosen,
they'll have a little.

Well, that's a benefit to waiting.

Joseph S Wisniewski said:
A very famous song "I am the Walrus" by a very famous group called
the Beatles. The particular line goes:

I am he, as you are he,
As you are me, and we are all together...

The refrain of the song is:

I am the egg man, he is the egg man,
I am the Walrus. Cho cho ga joob.

So, after I typed that "I'm not you, you're not me, I am me", it
obviously needed a cho cho ga joob.

I always thought it was koo koo ka choo

Joseph S Wisniewski said:
Get a big Canon flash and a flip bracket. You'll be able to use it
for event photography when you get the 20D, as well as right now.

Put any camera (even a little G) on a big bracket with a big flash,
and suddenly you're "the official event photographer", "the pro",
"the Paparazzi", the man to be respected and feared...

I thought about that, but that would delay getting the 20D just a little bit longer even.

Joseph S Wisniewski said:
Find a wedding photographer or event photographer who needs an
assistant. You'll get paid badly (but might be able to pocket $100
for most of a Saturday), work hard, but learn an awful lot.

Actually, while I was at the mall getting a couple of things I forgot to bring with me to college (like pillow and stuff, luckily, ol' dad flips that bill so it won't deplete 20D funds), I saw a portrait studio, and there are a few area wedding photographers (Charlotte is a big city after all, at least for the South), but I'll have to feel out my courses for a few weeks before I can figure out if I'll have enough time for it, and it's doubtful that I will.

I do have two fountain pens I can sell for the money, but they are my two favorite fountain pens. I don't think I could part with them. Now that I think about it, I only need $500 more, since I've got $700 now, figure I could get $400 for my g5 with everthing it came with when new, with no signs of wear other than 1300 shots and a few minor scratches on the bottom right corner and battery door, and with the 18-55 lens a 20D runs $1600. I'll come up with something, or hang tight, I'm sure.
Richard

Joseph S Wisniewski said:
--
A cyberstalker told me not to post anymore...
So I'm posting even more!

Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

--
http://davidson.smugmug.com
See my profile for equipment and wish list

marlinspike · Aug 28, 2004

If I do weaken and get a used digital rebel with kit lens for $650, 6 months from now, how much would I get for it? I'm thinking that maybe I can buy a used digital rebel now to sorta bridge the gap and sell it in 6 months to buy a 20D and maybe only take a $70 hit? Or will prices drop a lot more than that?
Thanks,
Richard

marlinspike said:
I'm a bit torn. I've had my eye on a 20D for a long time now, but
it looks like even if I sell my G5, it will be new year's by the
time I can afford one. I've been trying to stay strong, but I'm
faltering. The fact that I have enough money right now to be able
to buy a used digital rebel with kit lens is very tempting. The
thing is, I have a feeling I would be very unhappy with the digital
rebel for the following reasons:
The startup time. It's the same 2 seconds as the 10D, right?
Am I right that above ISO 400 is too noisy to be good?
AI Servo is only in sport mode, does the hack undo this?
Is the AF fast? I have a feeling it will be slower than I'd like
for sports
Is there shutter lag?
The plastic body is pretty cheap feeling, and is not black.
So, if anybody can answer my questions I'd appreciate it. Also,
considering the things I'm thinking about, would you get the
digital rebel or hold out 5 months for a 20D?
Thanks,
Richard, torn
--
http://davidson.smugmug.com
See my profile for equipment and wish list

--
http://davidson.smugmug.com
See my profile for equipment and wish list

Adam Gardner · Aug 28, 2004

It is an entry level camera. My guess is it won't hold value. Check the 10D as a lot of the new ones are going for not much more than a D70 now the 20D is out. To be perfectly honest with you, I don't rate power-on time as an issue at all. Just switch the camera on before you take the lens cap off and set your shooting mode.

If the 300D is all you need though, then my guess is that you will not need to spend nearly double that on a 20D.

marlinspike · Aug 28, 2004

Adam Gardner said:
If the 300D is all you need though, then my guess is that you will
not need to spend nearly double that on a 20D.

No, I know the 300D won't satisfy all my wants. On time is important to me, also AF is, so are a metal body, 5 fps, and a few other things. Basically, I could see myself owning a 20D for many years, but I can only see myself owning a 300D until I could afford something better. Like I said, I was just thinking, since a 300D would be better than my g5, if it isn't going to lose much value it might not be a bad route to go, but since you say it will, I guess it is.
Richard

--
http://davidson.smugmug.com
See my profile for equipment and wish list

Joseph S Wisniewski · Aug 29, 2004

marlinspike said:
Joseph S. Wisniewski said:

Now, that I can help with.

First, are you looking at prints on the sceen, or printing them?

Click to expand...

A bit of both

marlinspike said:

A G5 ISO 100 might look noisy on the screen, at 100% magnification,
but printed as an 8x10, it's not bad. Even a 200 isn't bad.

Click to expand...

I've found that even at ISO 50, unless I turn up the luminance
noise reduction in the PS CS RAW conversion to about 40 or so, I
can see noise in 8.5x11 pictures. ISO 100 can make it, but it take
a lot of noise reduction (more than can be done in PS CS, and
almost the most that can be done in noiseware).

marlinspike said:

And, if you want to see it even nicer, try a good noise filter
program.

Click to expand...

I was usign noiseware, but for some reason if I save a photo in PS,
remove the noise in noiseware, and open up PS to print, the picture
will have astrong print to it (as seen on the screen, so it's not a
printer issue).

Do you mean a strong "tint"?

A lot of programs (probably including noiseware) strip the profile information from the file. The image still has a profile applied to it, but there's nothing in the file that says which one. So you have to manually reapply the profile when you open in PhotoShop.

marlinspike said:
marlinspike said:

http://helicon.com.ua/pages/index.php?noisefilter

Click to expand...

For some reason the webpage won't work for me. I've tried going to
the homepage too.

It's back up. Give it another try.

--
A cyberstalker told me not to post anymore...
So I'm posting even more!

Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

stephenmelvin · Aug 29, 2004

I can answer a few of your specific questions about the Rebel. I like mine a lot, but plan to buy the 20D as soon as I can. I'm keeing the Rebel, though, so I can have a digital backup for event photography.

marlinspike said:
The startup time. It's the same 2 seconds as the 10D, right?

It's about 2 seconds, yes.

marlinspike said:
Am I right that above ISO 400 is too noisy to be good?

Not at all! Up to 400 is noise free. Above that it has very low noise for the ISO, much lower than film of the same speed. I've shot at ISO 3200 and the noise is much lower than you'd expect, and lower than film will give you.

marlinspike said:
AI Servo is only in sport mode, does the hack undo this?

AI servo is selectable under the hack. I prefer One Shot, and have the camera permanently set on OS.

marlinspike said:
Is the AF fast? I have a feeling it will be slower than I'd like
for sports

It's pretty speedy, but then I don't know what you're expecting.

marlinspike said:
Is there shutter lag?

Not for practical purposes. Much much faster than your G5.

marlinspike said:
The plastic body is pretty cheap feeling, and is not black.

Have you held one? It feels better than it looks in pictures, and looks better in person. That said, can't help you with the black one, unless you want to go to Japan.

marlinspike said:
So, if anybody can answer my questions I'd appreciate it. Also,
considering the things I'm thinking about, would you get the
digital rebel or hold out 5 months for a 20D?

That's up to you. But as they say, "a bird in the hand..." It'll be a big step up from the G5, from both useability and image quality standpoints.

marlinspike said:
Thanks,
Richard, torn
--
http://davidson.smugmug.com
See my profile for equipment and wish list

marlinspike · Aug 29, 2004

stephenmelvin said:
AI servo is selectable under the hack. I prefer One Shot, and have
the camera permanently set on OS.

What's OS?

stephenmelvin said:
Have you held one? It feels better than it looks in pictures, and
looks better in person. That said, can't help you with the black
one, unless you want to go to Japan.

I have held one, and thought it felt pretty hollow. As far as the going to Japan part, that might work, I have a friend in Japan right now. Do you know what prices are like for a black digital kiss with their version of the kit lense is like in japan?

stephenmelvin said:
That's up to you. But as they say, "a bird in the hand..." It'll
be a big step up from the G5, from both useability and image
quality standpoints.

Looks like I have some thinking to do. A rebel kit lens will be even less zoom than what I have right now, but with the difference in price, I could get both a rebel kit and a 28-135 lens (used) if I sold my G5. So it's either keep the G5 and wait 6 months for a 20D, buy a rebel kit now and sell the g5 and get a 28-135 and be happy with that for a while (probably until the 30D), or buy a rebel kit then sell it and my g5 in 6 months and get a 20D. This last option may be the best, but I would still be without a zoom on a dSLR. I may go the first route, but I'm going to have to do some thinking.
Richard
--
http://davidson.smugmug.com
See my profile for equipment and wish list

Mikeyf · Aug 29, 2004

I f I were in your position I would wait, you are using the G5 in manual mode I guess and have full control, apart from the well worn problems with the G5 it is a very good workhorse. I use a Lieca M2 as well a my G5 and the G5 is a good digital camera, to buy something which is hardly a step forward just because you are impaitent could be money down the drain. If you are getting the best out of your G5 then its going to take some beating, bearing in mind its known limitations.
Good Luck
Mike

marlinspike said:
stephenmelvin said:

AI servo is selectable under the hack. I prefer One Shot, and have
the camera permanently set on OS.

Click to expand...

What's OS?

marlinspike said:

Have you held one? It feels better than it looks in pictures, and
looks better in person. That said, can't help you with the black
one, unless you want to go to Japan.

Click to expand...

I have held one, and thought it felt pretty hollow. As far as the
going to Japan part, that might work, I have a friend in Japan
right now. Do you know what prices are like for a black digital
kiss with their version of the kit lense is like in japan?

marlinspike said:

That's up to you. But as they say, "a bird in the hand..." It'll
be a big step up from the G5, from both useability and image
quality standpoints.

Click to expand...

Looks like I have some thinking to do. A rebel kit lens will be
even less zoom than what I have right now, but with the difference
in price, I could get both a rebel kit and a 28-135 lens (used) if
I sold my G5. So it's either keep the G5 and wait 6 months for a
20D, buy a rebel kit now and sell the g5 and get a 28-135 and be
happy with that for a while (probably until the 30D), or buy a
rebel kit then sell it and my g5 in 6 months and get a 20D. This
last option may be the best, but I would still be without a zoom on
a dSLR. I may go the first route, but I'm going to have to do some
thinking.
Richard
--
http://davidson.smugmug.com
See my profile for equipment and wish list

stephenmelvin · Aug 29, 2004

By 'OS' I meant 'One Shot.' I prefer that mode so I can focus and recompose.

I think the black Rebels are the same price as the silver. It does feel hollow, but solid. The plastic doesn't flex when you hold it. It's primarily a function of weight. My metal cameras do feel more 'professional,' but I think the Rebel's sturdy enough for its intended market. The 20D is supposed to be pretty light, too. I'm with you, though, I like the weight. I'd prefer steel over magnesium, just because of the heft. And if your 20D ever catches fire, get as far away from it as possible!

As an aside, do you know what the Navy's procedure for fighting aircraft fires onboard ships is? Push the plane overboard. Many jet fighters are built using magnesium, which will burn uncontrollably no matter what you do, because the fire generates its own oxygen. The plane keeps burning until there's nothing left to burn.

Just feeling geeky there.

marlinspike said:
stephenmelvin said:

AI servo is selectable under the hack. I prefer One Shot, and have
the camera permanently set on OS.

Click to expand...

What's OS?

marlinspike said:

Have you held one? It feels better than it looks in pictures, and
looks better in person. That said, can't help you with the black
one, unless you want to go to Japan.

Click to expand...

I have held one, and thought it felt pretty hollow. As far as the
going to Japan part, that might work, I have a friend in Japan
right now. Do you know what prices are like for a black digital
kiss with their version of the kit lense is like in japan?

marlinspike said:

That's up to you. But as they say, "a bird in the hand..." It'll
be a big step up from the G5, from both useability and image
quality standpoints.

Click to expand...

Looks like I have some thinking to do. A rebel kit lens will be
even less zoom than what I have right now, but with the difference
in price, I could get both a rebel kit and a 28-135 lens (used) if
I sold my G5. So it's either keep the G5 and wait 6 months for a
20D, buy a rebel kit now and sell the g5 and get a 28-135 and be
happy with that for a while (probably until the 30D), or buy a
rebel kit then sell it and my g5 in 6 months and get a 20D. This
last option may be the best, but I would still be without a zoom on
a dSLR. I may go the first route, but I'm going to have to do some
thinking.
Richard
--
http://davidson.smugmug.com
See my profile for equipment and wish list

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