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CANON vs NIKON debate with the 20D, Mark2, 1Ds

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... they are mainly used in studio / location for glamour and fashion. Canon is quite far behind in that catagory.
James L Wilson said:
I own the Mark2 and its startup time is less than a half a second,
the images are unbelieveable clear with very low noise and accurate
colors, 45ms shutter delay, etc; better read the reviews again.
I've tested both cameras and they are very similar as to build
quality and basic features, however the Canon as the edge in
technology, comprehensive menue features, and image accuracy.

I shoot for the NCAA and many other sports venues and see few NIKON
cameras being used by the sports pros. My experience is about
85%Canon to 15%Nikon ratio, and half of those Nikon users I speak
to on field during time-outs, they are anxious to try out my Canon
unit, are thinking of changover to Canon, mostly becuase of NIKON's
continued failure to keep up with the heavy Canon competition. I
have not heard of any Canon users switching to NIKON either.

A Picture is worth a 1000 words .... Look at the Olympic
photographers at the site shown below, how many D2H's do you see ?
Apparently many of these users agree with my conclusions.
Click to expand...
 
dchao said:
... they are mainly used in studio / location for glamour and
fashion. Canon is quite far behind in that catagory.
Click to expand...
Don't see what? Don't see D2H's? Because they're all being used for studio/location glamour? What's wrong with the 1D MKII and 1Ds, at twice and (nearly) three times the megapixels? How is Canon "quite far behind in that category" when they have the 1D MKII (8mp) and 1Ds (11mp). Meanwhile, Nikon tops out at 5.4mp and 4mp with their D1X and D2H. I think you have it backwards, don't you? It's Nikon that is far behind in that category. Most studio/location photographers prefer higher resolutions, and Nikon just doesn't have anything to compete in that area. Meanwhile, Canon has had the 1Ds out for a couple years now.
 
Just realize Nikin is far from dead in the water.

I personally went for Canon digital gear, Nikon film gear. Both have advantages and disadvantages. Beyond bodies, Nikon makes SUPERB lenses as well. I'm not saying Canon has problems but I think people focus on one or two aspects of a body too much when there are so many other factors to consider.
DigitalWolf said:
Nathan Dandar said:
What does the number of people who use Canon at certain places have
to do with cold, hard facts about a specific Nikon camera?
Click to expand...
Nathan, you are in denial. It means alot! Tells you that the
majority think Canon is a superior product. Just reality.

--
Keep Taking Photos,
Jeff
The Digital Wolf
Click to expand...
 
James, what you are saying is true, for -professional- photographers. Canon finally is in the position Nikon was 20 years ago. It's the brand of choice for professional photographers. But in the process, Canon has neglected the people that made all this possible: the amateurs.

I just switched to Nikon, buying the D70 w/18-70 lens, because I am dead tired of Canon releasing flimsy bodies and lenses, crippling features in all but their top-end bodies, and manufacturing shoddy lenses. The EOS 300D was the final insult, with it's crappy 18-55 mm lens.

And did you ever wonder why Canon, with all it's bright engineers, couldn't make the EF-S mount work on previous digital bodies? It sure wasn't a technical decision. I feel sorry for all the 10D users who will have to "upgrade" simply to get a lens with a more useful zoom range. But Canon sure sold tons of their 17-40 L lens in the meantime.

I've been a Canon user for 10 years, and can mention a long list of equipment failures. Unless you plan to spend a lot of money on L lenses and at least an EOS 3 or comparable body, I wouldn't even bother thinking about Canon. I might be an amateur, but it's still frustrating when a body or lens breaks in the field.

After switching to Nikon, I started to realize how much better their bodies and lenses are built. And how much more feature-rich the D70 is compared to the 300D. And that Nikon has had the DX format all along (in this regard they were years ahead of Canon). And that instead of being so hung up on Canon, I should have bought a D100 long ago.

And as for the 20D being so much better: the next prosumer body from Nikon will feature an 8 megapixel DX sensor and an 18-80 mm VR lens, to match it. And it will be here by next spring at the latest. Guaranteed.

Bottom line: if you are professional using Nikon, consider switching to Canon. If you are an amateur using Canon, consider switching to Nikon.
  • Fabian
James L Wilson said:
Canon Being ahead or Nikon behind has much to do with which company
comes out with the best equipment first. Look at the Canon 1D which
came out 2 years ago at 8fps with 4MP, it is only until recently
that Nikon came out with its D2H, too little too late; Then last
year Canon came out with its 11MP EOS-1Ds- Nikon never even
attempted to compete with this one. The better wedding and product
photographers use the 1Ds period - and its killing the digital back
market on hasselblad and other medium format cameras as a result.

Then Canon in March, 2004 has hit the market with its 1Dmk2 with
8.5fps at 8.2MP, what pro in their right mind would buy the 2DH at
4MP, which is why more and more pros are tired of waiting for Nikon
to catch up, and are switching over, including me. Its also so easy
to dump the NIKON lenses on ebay. The pros cannot be behind in
technology - the competition is too great.

Behind the scene, the truth Nikon is at the mercy of 3rd parties
for developing their CCD imagers, which is a huge disadvantage for
NIKON, costs more time and money to get to market. Since Canon
makes every major component in its cameras including the Image
Processor and the Digital Imager they will likely remain in the
technology driver's seat for some time to come.

NOW look at Phil Askey's test images (link below) of Canon's new
EOS-20D, 5 fps, 8.2MP, 23 frame buffer, with unbelievable low noise
at ISO of 800 and 1600, 1000 shot battery capacity, true B&W mode
with color filters, two color spaces, sRGB and Adobe RGB.... the
list goes on and on. Here's another point, every EOS lens in the
Canon line-up is fully functional with all EOS cameras built since
1980, except for 3 recently produced for the 300D. Canon will
eventually be more universally FullFrame and the need for these
back focus lenses will be eliminated.

I personaly had NIKON and Hasselblad systems with all the pieces
for 30 years. And since 1997, I am universally CANON, and sold
everything else on ebay. As a user of these three systems dating
back since 1975, I must admit Canon is the leader - and their "L"
lenses and I own a bunch of them from the long 400mm f2.8 IS "L",
to the short, 14mm wide angle. Regretfully Nikon a distant 3rd
place.

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/canoneos20d/page17.asp
Click to expand...
 
.. stop looking at a SINGLE aspect of the camera, that is. Canon still can't touch Nikon's flash accuracy and performance, for one.
James McPeak said:
dchao said:
... they are mainly used in studio / location for glamour and
fashion. Canon is quite far behind in that catagory.
Click to expand...
Don't see what? Don't see D2H's? Because they're all being used
for studio/location glamour? What's wrong with the 1D MKII and
1Ds, at twice and (nearly) three times the megapixels? How is
Canon "quite far behind in that category" when they have the 1D
MKII (8mp) and 1Ds (11mp). Meanwhile, Nikon tops out at 5.4mp and
4mp with their D1X and D2H. I think you have it backwards, don't
you? It's Nikon that is far behind in that category. Most
studio/location photographers prefer higher resolutions, and Nikon
just doesn't have anything to compete in that area. Meanwhile,
Canon has had the 1Ds out for a couple years now.
Click to expand...
 
Not to perpetuate this thread but:

I DO hear often that Canon makes GREAT lenses when they're made to be great, Nikon makes GREAT lenses when they're made to be great, but the consumer-grade Nikon vs Canon lenses are a different story.

I do often hear the optical quality of even the lower priced Nikon lenses is incredible while it seems Canon skimps on the amateur lenses and puts all its work into the pro lenses. I don't own any CURRENT Nikon lenses so I can't comment but I can confirm that a few of the consumer-grade Canon lenses I've owned or used have been disappointing while I've heard rave reviews of equivalent Nikon lenses.

Too bad Nikon reserves AF-S only for their pro lenses. Come on, Nikon! Canon can fit USM in all types of lenses! Get with the program.
 
Well stated about the Canon's el cheepo 18-55mm party lens packasged with the Digital Rebel, however ever seen the lens packaged with NIKON's N55 camera, the same cheep stuff. However, the Digital Rebel is quite a good digital camera, well built, produces great digital images, and has been available for over a year. If one buys the Body-Only configuration at $900 what a deal, and works with all Canon lenses in their lineup. (By the way Nikon has many more el cheepo lenses over the years in their lineup).

There is only one reason that Canon previously did not jump into the APS-C sized lens systems, it was their belief (a 18 months ago) that sooner rather than later, their whole SLR lineup will be Full Frame. Apparently its taking more time then they thought to engineer an affordable CMOS FullFframe imager, so the company acquised to the competition by comming out with two good, consumer quality, APS-C lenses. The reason these three lenses don't work with other canon bodies, is that to obtain the wide focul length, these lenses fall deeper into the body of the camera interfearing with the moving reflex mirror system. This is why the 20D has a smaller mirror than the 10D, to make way for the back-focus lenses new to the lineup.

Otherwise, you are correct NIKON made a change in the 1980's to appeal to the consumer market, leaving the pros in the wind. Accordingly, I moved to Hasselblad. When Canon moved in, I then switched to their digital products in 1997.

Canon balaced their digital line-up several years ago with the the D30 then to the D60, then to the 10D, and now the 20D. In that period Nikon only had two digital cameras.

In conclusion, this is probably the worst time in the history of digital to switch from Canon.
fabgo said:
James, what you are saying is true, for -professional-
photographers. Canon finally is in the position Nikon was 20 years
ago. It's the brand of choice for professional photographers. But
in the process, Canon has neglected the people that made all this
possible: the amateurs.

I just switched to Nikon, buying the D70 w/18-70 lens, because I am
dead tired of Canon releasing flimsy bodies and lenses, crippling
features in all but their top-end bodies, and manufacturing shoddy
lenses. The EOS 300D was the final insult, with it's crappy 18-55
mm lens.

And did you ever wonder why Canon, with all it's bright engineers,
couldn't make the EF-S mount work on previous digital bodies? It
sure wasn't a technical decision. I feel sorry for all the 10D
users who will have to "upgrade" simply to get a lens with a more
useful zoom range. But Canon sure sold tons of their 17-40 L lens
in the meantime.

I've been a Canon user for 10 years, and can mention a long list of
equipment failures. Unless you plan to spend a lot of money on L
lenses and at least an EOS 3 or comparable body, I wouldn't even
bother thinking about Canon. I might be an amateur, but it's still
frustrating when a body or lens breaks in the field.

After switching to Nikon, I started to realize how much better
their bodies and lenses are built. And how much more feature-rich
the D70 is compared to the 300D. And that Nikon has had the DX
format all along (in this regard they were years ahead of Canon).
And that instead of being so hung up on Canon, I should have bought
a D100 long ago.

And as for the 20D being so much better: the next prosumer body
from Nikon will feature an 8 megapixel DX sensor and an 18-80 mm VR
lens, to match it. And it will be here by next spring at the
latest. Guaranteed.

Bottom line: if you are professional using Nikon, consider
switching to Canon. If you are an amateur using Canon, consider
switching to Nikon.
  • Fabian
Click to expand...
 
Scott Cragg said:
Microsoft is absolutely at the top of their game in terms of R&D...

That's why their security is such top notch... Why XP is so small,
and efficiant, and why Millenium was so Rock-stable...

I bought a new computer two months ago when I moved. Hooked it up
to my cable internet connection and patched it up completely...

One week later (After very careful use by a professional software
engineer, mind you), The computer was so riddled with worms and
spyware in was unusable (I was too busy with my new job to go buy a
virus scanner... DOH).

That is simply and utterly unacceptable... It is HORRENDOUS even -
the only reason why people still buy microsoft products is...

Well, because they have no choice (unless you want an overpriced
mac, which is unfortunately not supported by the SDK for the type
of software engineering I do, so I had no choice).

Because they have a Monopoly.

R&D is expensive, it cuts away from management bonuses and the
bottom line. Companies won't engage in it unless they feel like
they need to for survival...

Hence competition is good... lest we end up having the M$ of the
optical world on our hands.
Click to expand...
It is easy to bash Microsoft (as it is easy to bash Nikon) but some of it you really can't blame MS for and I don't believe you can compare the Canon/Nikon situation to MS. Canon does not have people (kids mostly) trying to put dust on your sensor or trying to short out your CF card. MS software has holes for sure. So does EVERY OTHER piece of software and some are a lot worse. Look at the support site for ANY software manufacturer and you will see complaints. Some as due to MS, and many are due to others software buggering things up.

I think blaming MS for the viruses and worms is like blaming canon for dust getting in your camera. All Canon can do is try to make it harder for the dust to get there but as long as you have to take off a lens or air must enter the camera for cooling you will certainly get dust once in a while.

--
Michael Kaplan
http://www.pbase.com/mkaplan
Canon EOS-10D
 
Nathan Dandar said:
Wrong. Good carpenters don't blame bad workmanship on their tools.
Click to expand...
Actually, nobody here is blaming their bad photography on Canon either. From what I see, the complaints are in how their tool works or not and how they think the tools should have been made and complaining on how much easier it would be to get the work done if this tool would have had this feature instead of that but no one ever said that they could not create great things with the current tool. Just that a better tool might make it easier for them to create their works of art.
--
Michael Kaplan
http://www.pbase.com/mkaplan
Canon EOS-10D
 
OldSkoOL said:
Canon defainatly have the market dominance especially in sports and
journalism. It all stems from R&D and canon are definatly good at
that; providing the market with the updated cameras that are
requested. Canon lived up to the demand were Nikon were lagging. So
what did Nikon do, they released the D70 as a bridging camera. They
took advantage of of the masses of people gaining interest in
digital photography and cashed in with a tempting camera... the
d70. From nikons point of view this camera will cement interest in
its brand, with users investing in nikon glass. It was put into the
market to byde time for the development of the pro bodies. With the
aquisition of new users they are trying to recoupe the numbers that
they've lost using this backdoor type method.

Nikon and canon are both direct competitors (sigma, fuji, olympus,
all indirect) and its big big business. I think one thing that some
peope forget is Nikon wont take this one lying down. Its not in
their interests to allow canon to walk all over them which sadly is
happening. Do you ever wonder why Nikon have delayed their launch
this much. Didnt the article about Nikon going full digital get you
thinking. Perhaps they've played the field. They know they need to
come up with something to exceeds expectations not just a Nikon
version of the Mk II. Their waiting to finalize their specs because
they know if they release a camera spec before canon, you can bet
your bottom dollar canon will outshine Nikon with a new camera spec
only months after, its starting to become a trend. Nikons stratergy
is to have the last laugh. Whether it will work or not i dont know
but its worth a try. Its the only change. Its their one chance to
get back in the field this septemeber with new pro bodies and new
glass. If they dont come up with the goods this time round it will
definatly be too late.
Click to expand...
I think you just said what Nikon's problems are. They took too long to catch up. They already lost the majority of theyr clients. Do you think any photographer that already gave up Nikon and switched to Canon are going to go back? They won't because they know that whatever camera that Nikon puts out that will certainly better the Canon, Canon won't be far off to Better that. And that is the point. Nikon had to do that in the past to keep their clients and the boss's at Nikon did not make the correct decisions and have lost a large market share and the ones that have left will not be willing to return unless Canon would really screw things up which if their history says anything, they won't. And I am not saying that Canon is perfect but you have to give them kudos for their r&D and marketing savy.
--
Michael Kaplan
http://www.pbase.com/mkaplan
Canon EOS-10D
 
This is ironic that you would post this on the same day that XP SP2 was released to the consumers...

It has a tweaked firewall and pop-up stopper... It also tries to monitor your anti-virus software to make sure it is healthy so it is certainly a long way from what you're describing.

Another thing, a lot of us have been in the IT business before the boom started and we don't have these issues because we don't frequent certain areas without Anti-Virus software.

The truth is you're as much to blame as Microsoft because you knew the issues and did nothing to prevent the problems.
Scott Cragg said:
That's why their security is such top notch... Why XP is so small,
and efficiant, and why Millenium was so Rock-stable...

I bought a new computer two months ago when I moved. Hooked it up
to my cable internet connection and patched it up completely...

One week later (After very careful use by a professional software
engineer, mind you), The computer was so riddled with worms and
spyware in was unusable (I was too busy with my new job to go buy a
virus scanner... DOH).

That is simply and utterly unacceptable... It is HORRENDOUS even -
the only reason why people still buy microsoft products is...

Well, because they have no choice (unless you want an overpriced
mac, which is unfortunately not supported by the SDK for the type
of software engineering I do, so I had no choice).

Because they have a Monopoly.

R&D is expensive, it cuts away from management bonuses and the
bottom line. Companies won't engage in it unless they feel like
they need to for survival...

Hence competition is good... lest we end up having the M$ of the
optical world on our hands.
James L Wilson said:
jeds said:
This is all very bad news folks.

I have always been a Canon user - 30 years or thereabouts. Not by
design, just because that was the way it was. You know how it goes,
you start and next thing you know, or don't know maybe, your in the
loop.

The reason I say it's bad news is that the sole reason why Canon,
or Nikon, or any other manufacturer come to that, produce the
cameras and equipment they do, is because of the competition.

If Canon did not have the thought in the back of its mind that
Nikon may sneak up and make a move, then it probably would slow to
a stop.

Competition breeds development and has given us the lowest cost,
best, most highly developed cameras and equipment ever. Remove the
competition and who knows what?
Click to expand...
True, true, however, tell that to MICROSOFT when it climbed from a
fledgling company in 1985, to presently owning over 90% of the
world market - and they are presently not asleep as to new
technologhy. They make $1billion net each month, have $40billion in
cash, own all the building they occupy, and have No debt, other
than their current payroll. And because of this, we and millions of
others can communicate globally in this forum !!

So Canon has lots of time and motivation as they are nowhere near
owning 90% of the digital camera market.

--
James L Wilson, Digital Imaging Systems enterprise,
http://www.BocaRatonDigital.com , Raton, Florida, Director and Principal
Officer
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--

'The probability that we may fall in the struggle ought not to deter us from the support of a cause we believe to be just; it shall not deter me.' -- Abraham Lincoln
 
Donald Cooper said:
James,

All Canon users should love Nikon. Pretty simple really:
competition good; monopoly bad. And Nikon is Canon's primary
competition at the high end (meaning dSLRs).
Click to expand...
I don't think people are hating Nikon. I think they are just mad at them for not doing better faster.
--
Michael Kaplan
http://www.pbase.com/mkaplan
Canon EOS-10D
 
James L Wilson said:
And because of this, we and millions of
others can communicate globally in this forum !!
Click to expand...
Giving Microsoft the credit on this one is a bit silly, wouldn't you agree.

As for R&D, Microsoft strategy is something like that: RESEARCH which company makes something innovative in the computer industry and DEVELOP a way to integrate their technology by either buying them off (if they're cheap enough) or by using Windows' monoply to choke them...

Oh well I'm a bit biased (check my forum name) but one might agree this isn't far from the truth...

Nico
 
Lance Perkins said:
It is my impression that the failure of the Kodak FF has nothing to
do with the fact that no one wants to buy FF cams. Instead, their
FF solution is just not good. If the Kodak FF were as good as the
1Ds, wouldn't you think more people would buy it.
Click to expand...
Not True... The latest Kodak FF DSLR offering's are good! Image quality is good and noise was measured lower on the Kodak sensor than the 1Ds sensor (by Phil as a matter of fact)...

The problem is that Kodak won't make their own body and the cheap bodies they're being offered don't qualify them as pro class bodies... The Pro SLR/N is still using the D100 body (which was a great body but not exactly top of the line) and the Pro SLR/C is a Sigma body (which has never been top of the line)...

The truth is if Nikon gave Kodak the D1x body and metering system along with i-TTL then you would certainly see a bigger rivalry but right now that isn't going to happen.

--

'The probability that we may fall in the struggle ought not to deter us from the support of a cause we believe to be just; it shall not deter me.' -- Abraham Lincoln
 
On the "pro" line Nikon has the old time-proven, flexible neck strap holders, while Canon has the totally unflexible ´I-hate-them-so much´ flat type strap holders.
(plus Canon 1´s are UGLY :)
 
I 100% agree with that. Competition breeds innovation and lower cost for us all.

Hopefully Nikon will have some good surprises here soon to keep things interesting.
jeds said:
This is all very bad news folks.

I have always been a Canon user - 30 years or thereabouts. Not by
design, just because that was the way it was. You know how it goes,
you start and next thing you know, or don't know maybe, your in the
loop.

The reason I say it's bad news is that the sole reason why Canon,
or Nikon, or any other manufacturer come to that, produce the
cameras and equipment they do, is because of the competition.

If Canon did not have the thought in the back of its mind that
Nikon may sneak up and make a move, then it probably would slow to
a stop.

Competition breeds development and has given us the lowest cost,
best, most highly developed cameras and equipment ever. Remove the
competition and who knows what?
Click to expand...
 
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