CANON vs NIKON debate with the 20D, Mark2, 1Ds

Nathan Dandar said:

PS: My dad uses all used, discount and cheap tools and produces
carpentry work that makes other carpenters' mouths drop open in awe.

James L Wilson said:

I teach digital photography at a 30,000 student south Florida State
University, and shoot professionally for the NCAA and FAU sports,
USA Soccer, among other venues, and must have the best of the best,
in this competive world.

As to your unwritten, comment why would one put this great glass on
a 20D; I always tell my students to but the best glass you can
afford, and have a modent camera, not the reverse. Lots of folks
over-buy on the camera, are then lens-broke, and get inexpensive
aftermarket glass. Afterall the subject light goes through the
Glass....

Being a good photographer, having a good eye, etc., is VERY
important, but we do need the very best toolls of the trade. So it
seems that every 18 months I trade up to the newest digital body.
My eye is on the Photokina for the upgrade to the 1Ds.....

PS: Great carpenters dont buy their tools from Kmart, period.

rodg said:

Rod

Nathan Dandar said:

• and their "L"

lenses and I own a bunch of them from the long 400mm f2.8 IS "L",
to the short, 14mm wide angle. >

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
James L Wilson, Digital Imaging Systems enterprise,
http://www.BocaRatonDigital.com , Raton, Florida, Director and Principal
Officer

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

adydula said:

A.

Nathan Dandar said:

PS: My dad uses all used, discount and cheap tools and produces
carpentry work that makes other carpenters' mouths drop open in awe.

James L Wilson said:

I teach digital photography at a 30,000 student south Florida State
University, and shoot professionally for the NCAA and FAU sports,
USA Soccer, among other venues, and must have the best of the best,
in this competive world.

As to your unwritten, comment why would one put this great glass on
a 20D; I always tell my students to but the best glass you can
afford, and have a modent camera, not the reverse. Lots of folks
over-buy on the camera, are then lens-broke, and get inexpensive
aftermarket glass. Afterall the subject light goes through the
Glass....

Being a good photographer, having a good eye, etc., is VERY
important, but we do need the very best toolls of the trade. So it
seems that every 18 months I trade up to the newest digital body.
My eye is on the Photokina for the upgrade to the 1Ds.....

PS: Great carpenters dont buy their tools from Kmart, period.

rodg said:

Rod

adydula said:

• and their "L"

lenses and I own a bunch of them from the long 400mm f2.8 IS "L",
to the short, 14mm wide angle. >

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
James L Wilson, Digital Imaging Systems enterprise,
http://www.BocaRatonDigital.com , Raton, Florida, Director and Principal
Officer

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Nathan Dandar said:

What does the number of people who use Canon at certain places have
to do with cold, hard facts about a specific Nikon camera?

Click to expand...

James L Wilson said:

True, true, however, XP is an operating system, its not an
everything system; get NORTON internet security, NORTON Anti Virus,
and AdAware SE Plus, activate your firewall, and keep up with the
three company's security updates, very important reject email from
unfamiliar sources, and you'll be fine. With this combinatiuon, I
get no viruses, no pop-ups, and no worms, knock on wood.

Click to expand...

James L Wilson said:

Canon Being ahead or Nikon behind has much to do with which company
comes out with the best equipment first. Look at the Canon 1D which
came out 2 years ago at 8fps with 4MP, it is only until recently
that Nikon came out with its D2H, too little too late; Then last
year Canon came out with its 11MP EOS-1Ds- Nikon never even
attempted to compete with this one. The better wedding and product
photographers use the 1Ds period - and its killing the digital back
market on hasselblad and other medium format cameras as a result.

Then Canon in March, 2004 has hit the market with its 1Dmk2 with
8.5fps at 8.2MP, what pro in their right mind would buy the 2DH at
4MP, which is why more and more pros are tired of waiting for Nikon
to catch up, and are switching over, including me. Its also so easy
to dump the NIKON lenses on ebay. The pros cannot be behind in
technology - the competition is too great.

Behind the scene, the truth Nikon is at the mercy of 3rd parties
for developing their CCD imagers, which is a huge disadvantage for
NIKON, costs more time and money to get to market. Since Canon
makes every major component in its cameras including the Image
Processor and the Digital Imager they will likely remain in the
technology driver's seat for some time to come.

NOW look at Phil Askey's test images (link below) of Canon's new
EOS-20D, 5 fps, 8.2MP, 23 frame buffer, with unbelievable low noise
at ISO of 800 and 1600, 1000 shot battery capacity, true B&W mode
with color filters, two color spaces, sRGB and Adobe RGB.... the
list goes on and on. Here's another point, every EOS lens in the
Canon line-up is fully functional with all EOS cameras built since
1980, except for 3 recently produced for the 300D. Canon will
eventually be more universally FullFrame and the need for these
back focus lenses will be eliminated.

I personaly had NIKON and Hasselblad systems with all the pieces
for 30 years. And since 1997, I am universally CANON, and sold
everything else on ebay. As a user of these three systems dating
back since 1975, I must admit Canon is the leader - and their "L"
lenses and I own a bunch of them from the long 400mm f2.8 IS "L",
to the short, 14mm wide angle. Regretfully Nikon a distant 3rd
place.

Click to expand...

Nathan Dandar said:

What does the number of people who use Canon at certain places have
to do with cold, hard facts about a specific Nikon camera?

Click to expand...

jeds said:

This is all very bad news folks.

I have always been a Canon user - 30 years or thereabouts. Not by
design, just because that was the way it was. You know how it goes,
you start and next thing you know, or don't know maybe, your in the
loop.

The reason I say it's bad news is that the sole reason why Canon,
or Nikon, or any other manufacturer come to that, produce the
cameras and equipment they do, is because of the competition.

If Canon did not have the thought in the back of its mind that
Nikon may sneak up and make a move, then it probably would slow to
a stop.

Competition breeds development and has given us the lowest cost,
best, most highly developed cameras and equipment ever. Remove the
competition and who knows what?

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James L Wilson said:

Body material Magnesium alloy
Sensor • 22.5 x 15.0 mm CMOS sensor *
• RGB Color Filter Array
• Built-in fixed low-pass filter
• 8.5 million total pixels *
• 8.2 million effective pixels *
• 3:2 aspect ratio
Image processor DIGIC II *
Image sizes • 3504 x 2336 (8.2 MP) *
• 2544 x 1696 (4.3 MP) *
• 1728 x 1152 (2.0 MP) *
File formats • RAW
• JPEG (EXIF 2.21) - Fine / Normal
• RAW + JPEG (separate files) *

Color space * • sRGB
• Adobe RGB
Lenses • Canon EF / EF-S lens mount *
• 1.6x field of view crop
Focusing • 9-point TTL *
• CMOS sensor
• AF working range: -0.5 - 18 EV (at 20°C, ISO 100) *
Focus modes • AI Focus AF
• One shot AF
• AI Servo AF
• Manual focus
AF point selection • Auto
• Manual
• Home position
AF assist • Stroboscopic flash
• 4.0 m range (at center)
Metering • TTL 35 zone SPC
• Metering range: EV 1.0 - 20 EV (at 20°C, ISO 100, 50 mm F1.4)
Metering modes • Evaluative 35 zone
• Partial (9% at center)
• Center-weighted average
• Metering range: 1 - 20 EV (at 20°C, ISO 100)
AE lock • Auto: One Shot AF with evaluative metering
• Manual: AE lock button
AE bracketing • + - 2.0 EV
• 0.3 or 0.5 EV increments
Exposure compen. • + -2.0 EV
• 0.3 or 0.5 EV increments
Sensitivity • Auto (100, 200 or 400)
• ISO 100
• ISO 200
• ISO 400
• ISO 800
• ISO 1600
• ISO 3200 (Enhanced H)

Shutter • Focal-plane shutter
• 30 - 1/8000 sec *
• 0.3 or 0.5 EV increments
• Flash X-Sync: 1/250 sec
• Bulb
Aperture values • F1.0 - F91
• 0.3 or 0.5 EV increments
• Actual aperture range depends on lens used
WB shift • Blue (-9) To Amber (+9)
• Magenta (-9) to Green (+9)
Processing params • Parameter 1 (con +1, shp +1, sat +1, tone 0) *
• Parameter 2 (con 0, shp 0, sat 0, tone 0) *
• Set 1 (con, shp, sat, tone)
• Set 2 (con, shp, sat, tone)
• Set 3 (con, shp, sat, tone)
• B&W (con, shp, filter, toning) *
Custom params
(Set 1 - 3) • Contrast (+ -2)
• Sharpness (+ -2)
• Saturation (+ -2)
• Color tone (+ -2)
Viewfinder • Eye-level pentaprism
• 95% frame coverage
• Magnification: 0.9x (-1 diopter with 50 mm lens at infinity) *
• Eyepoint: 20 mm
• Dioptric adjustment: -3.0 to +1.0 diopter
• Precision matte screen
Viewfinder info • AF points
• Focus confirmation light
• Shutter speed
• Aperture
• Manual exposure
• AE Lock
• Exposure compensation amount
• AEB level
• Partial metering area
• Flash ready
• Red-eye reduction lamp on
• High-speed sync
• FE Lock
• Flash compensation amount
• Warnings
• Maximum burst for continuous shooting
• Buffer space
Flash • Auto pop-up E-TTL II auto flash
• FOV coverage up to 17 mm (27 mm equiv.) *
• Guide number approx 13
• Flash compensation + -2.0 EV in 0.3 or 0.5 EV increments
• X-Sync: 1/250 sec *
External flash • E-TTL II auto flash with EX-series Speedlites *
• Wireless multi-flash support
• PC Sync
Drive modes • Single
• Continuous: 5 fps up to 23 frames *
• Self-timer: 10 secs
Direct printing • Canon Card Photo Printers
• Canon Bubble Jet Printers with direct print function
• PictBridge *
Other features • Orientation sensor

• New or changed

--
James L Wilson, Digital Imaging Systems enterprise,
http://www.Digital4Law.com ,
[email protected]
Raton, Florida, Director and Principal Officer

Click to expand...

David Purslow said:

Be it a rant or whatever its reading my mind.

I am a pro shooter, I have been waiting and waiting for YEARS for a
new nikon camera.

I have 8 Nikon lenses from the 300 2.8 down - I dont want to change
systems but cant wait any longer.

I have shot nikon for almost 15 years now but today started to
order my canon system.

Since I now shoot a lot of sports, I have gone for the Mk 2, 70-200
is L, 24 - 20 L and the Sigma 120-300 2.8 I am looking at both the
300 2.8 and the 400 2.8 as my main sports lens but have not sorted
out a final decision yet.

I waited as long as I could but cant affort to wait any longer :-(

I hate swithching systems since got my first nikon 8008s I have
loved every camera but today they are years behind.

Sad but true.

Click to expand...

Nathan Dandar said:

Also, the D2H has advantages over the 1D MkII if you look past the
megapixel number. Besides, the D2H is aimed at photojournalists
and newspaper photographers where you DO NOT need huge, high
quality, high DPI enlargements. Do not. The other features it has
are of much higher importance than the silly megapixel number.
Look at dpreview's review alone for a few of these plus-points:
wide dynamic range, very clean film-like non-processed look to the
photos, excellent ergonomics and build quality that matches or
exceeds the Canon 1D series, "the most responsive shutter release I
have ever experienced" according to the review, extremely quick
viewfinder blackout, faster startup time than the 1D MkII, great
metering, VERY accurate and fast focusing that kills any Canon
1-series camera, WiFi support, overall very very fast and very very
flexible camera and interface.

Oh... but it has 4MP instead of 8MP so it's inferior. hahah in
your dreams.

James L Wilson said:

Canon Being ahead or Nikon behind has much to do with which company
comes out with the best equipment first. Look at the Canon 1D which
came out 2 years ago at 8fps with 4MP, it is only until recently
that Nikon came out with its D2H, too little too late; Then last
year Canon came out with its 11MP EOS-1Ds- Nikon never even
attempted to compete with this one. The better wedding and product
photographers use the 1Ds period - and its killing the digital back
market on hasselblad and other medium format cameras as a result.

Then Canon in March, 2004 has hit the market with its 1Dmk2 with
8.5fps at 8.2MP, what pro in their right mind would buy the 2DH at
4MP, which is why more and more pros are tired of waiting for Nikon
to catch up, and are switching over, including me. Its also so easy
to dump the NIKON lenses on ebay. The pros cannot be behind in
technology - the competition is too great.

Behind the scene, the truth Nikon is at the mercy of 3rd parties
for developing their CCD imagers, which is a huge disadvantage for
NIKON, costs more time and money to get to market. Since Canon
makes every major component in its cameras including the Image
Processor and the Digital Imager they will likely remain in the
technology driver's seat for some time to come.

NOW look at Phil Askey's test images (link below) of Canon's new
EOS-20D, 5 fps, 8.2MP, 23 frame buffer, with unbelievable low noise
at ISO of 800 and 1600, 1000 shot battery capacity, true B&W mode
with color filters, two color spaces, sRGB and Adobe RGB.... the
list goes on and on. Here's another point, every EOS lens in the
Canon line-up is fully functional with all EOS cameras built since
1980, except for 3 recently produced for the 300D. Canon will
eventually be more universally FullFrame and the need for these
back focus lenses will be eliminated.

I personaly had NIKON and Hasselblad systems with all the pieces
for 30 years. And since 1997, I am universally CANON, and sold
everything else on ebay. As a user of these three systems dating
back since 1975, I must admit Canon is the leader - and their "L"
lenses and I own a bunch of them from the long 400mm f2.8 IS "L",
to the short, 14mm wide angle. Regretfully Nikon a distant 3rd
place.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Limaunion said:

James L Wilson said:

True, true, however, XP is an operating system, its not an
everything system; get NORTON internet security, NORTON Anti Virus,
and AdAware SE Plus, activate your firewall, and keep up with the
three company's security updates, very important reject email from
unfamiliar sources, and you'll be fine. With this combinatiuon, I
get no viruses, no pop-ups, and no worms, knock on wood.

Click to expand...

better yet, switch to Linux (alternatively Mac OSX) and forget
about viruses, instability (aka blue screen of death), patch
maintenance, spyware, what else ?... ah, and most importantly about
paying a lot of money for a piece of... imagine.

Click to expand...

George Sears said:

It's clear that Canon figured out how to do CMOS, back when people
said it was useless for imaging chips. Whether this is really a
long term advantage remains to be seen. At some point, fairly soon,
the cost of a 'great' imaging chip will probably not be the issue
for most of us. How many dpi are we talking in a print, and how big
a print? So if you say that 10MP will satisfy the demands of 90% of
the people, the imaging chip is less important. But, for now, Nikon
can't buy an APS sized 8MP chip, and they may not be developing
one. But, since Sony made an 8MP chip at the 2/3" size, why not at
APS? There's really more of a market for the 2/3" sensor, which 5
manufacturers have used to date.

So in two years, when there are 10MP imagers in the consumer SLR
size, the APS, what? Will Nikon really be behind? Since Canon gets
more and more from smaller photosites, or pixels, how good will the
all in one type cameras be. It's disappointing that the Nikon 8700
is probably the weakest entry. But, they caught up to the 10D with
the D70.

Nikon is waiting for imaging sensors. Canon has their own patents
and plants. But that puts Canon in the semiconductor industry.
That's a very tough place to be, even for superior companies like
Intel. You might separate off the pure imaging aspect from the
semiconductor aspect. Same result? But Nikon is dependent on
others. It seems safe to say that what they want, in the way of
imaging sensors, will show up, and fairly soon.

They are a year behind, if you look at the D70. Kodak tried to make
a full frame sensor camera. It hasn't been a great success. Maybe
Nikon is smart to wait, but at the high end they might be two years
behind. Oh, well. That's not life and death for a company like
Nikon.

George Sears

James L Wilson said:

Canon Being ahead or Nikon behind has much to do with which company
comes out with the best equipment first. Look at the Canon 1D which
came out 2 years ago at 8fps with 4MP, it is only until recently
that Nikon came out with its D2H, too little too late; Then last
year Canon came out with its 11MP EOS-1Ds- Nikon never even
attempted to compete with this one. The better wedding and product
photographers use the 1Ds period - and its killing the digital back
market on hasselblad and other medium format cameras as a result.

Then Canon in March, 2004 has hit the market with its 1Dmk2 with
8.5fps at 8.2MP, what pro in their right mind would buy the 2DH at
4MP, which is why more and more pros are tired of waiting for Nikon
to catch up, and are switching over, including me. Its also so easy
to dump the NIKON lenses on ebay. The pros cannot be behind in
technology - the competition is too great.

Behind the scene, the truth Nikon is at the mercy of 3rd parties
for developing their CCD imagers, which is a huge disadvantage for
NIKON, costs more time and money to get to market. Since Canon
makes every major component in its cameras including the Image
Processor and the Digital Imager they will likely remain in the
technology driver's seat for some time to come.

NOW look at Phil Askey's test images (link below) of Canon's new
EOS-20D, 5 fps, 8.2MP, 23 frame buffer, with unbelievable low noise
at ISO of 800 and 1600, 1000 shot battery capacity, true B&W mode
with color filters, two color spaces, sRGB and Adobe RGB.... the
list goes on and on. Here's another point, every EOS lens in the
Canon line-up is fully functional with all EOS cameras built since
1980, except for 3 recently produced for the 300D. Canon will
eventually be more universally FullFrame and the need for these
back focus lenses will be eliminated.

I personaly had NIKON and Hasselblad systems with all the pieces
for 30 years. And since 1997, I am universally CANON, and sold
everything else on ebay. As a user of these three systems dating
back since 1975, I must admit Canon is the leader - and their "L"
lenses and I own a bunch of them from the long 400mm f2.8 IS "L",
to the short, 14mm wide angle. Regretfully Nikon a distant 3rd
place.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

James L Wilson said:

A Picture is worth a 1000 words .... Look at the Olympic
photographers at the site shown below, how many D2H's do you see ?
Apparently many of these users agree with my conclusions.

Click to expand...

James L Wilson said:

Canon Being ahead or Nikon behind has much to do with which company
comes out with the best equipment first.

Click to expand...

Lance Perkins said:

George Sears said:

They are a year behind, if you look at the D70. Kodak tried to make
a full frame sensor camera. It hasn't been a great success. Maybe
Nikon is smart to wait, but at the high end they might be two years
behind. Oh, well. That's not life and death for a company like
Nikon.

George Sears

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Nathan Dandar said:

haha what the.. ?

Also, the D2H has advantages over the 1D MkII if you look past the
megapixel number. Besides, the D2H is aimed at photojournalists
and newspaper photographers where you DO NOT need huge, high
quality, high DPI enlargements. Do not. The other features it has
are of much higher importance than the silly megapixel number.

Click to expand...

Nathan Dandar said:

If a tool does a great job, why do you need a better tool or why
would you blame bad end results on the tool?

Are you guys actually serious or just joking with me here?

Click to expand...