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fuji S3 or the canon 20D - your thoughts??

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for most part the workflow/handling
  • RAW, files to big, custom converter , long conversion times, large files,....
  • RAW, CF write, large files, slow writes, slow previews/wait for write/read
basically, the RAW workflow is so painfull, that it's not worth it.
  • new vertical grip , won't have a dial,.... only shutter realease
  • only 4 AA batteries,.. not enough juice for the lenses/ runtime,
plus they drain , no in use,.... Nikon/canon better
  • only 6MP, but it's better, yeah, got a S2, know, still want a litle more, for my cash
  • lack of Nikon alternative
shure the S3 chip will deliver lovely pictures, even better than the competition,....
the LCD is amarvel,.... and a couple pages more, ...
but right now , my hand hurts, no vertical grip
and my back hurts, from processing
and got to carry extra batteries, what does'nt help

now I don't want to add my hurting wallet to it, without fixing or improveing the others.
thought, right now not a fan of cmos, but might need to swallow those pills,...
cheers, Robert
--
http://www.RobsPhoto.com
 
I think for the answer to these questions, I must regretfully defer to the Canon experts. You might want to lurk in the Canon forum and see what they're saying about the various Canon lenses.

Obviously, the EF-S lenses are designed for digital, but this limits their usefulness for a film camera.

Anthony
charleigh said:
hi anthony!
i am considering getting some new lenses. i love my 50mm lens but
at times, i need a longer lens (for unobtrusively catching the
action) & with the 1.6 factor, i might need a wideangle too. what
do you think of the new ef-s lenses? clearly, the quality of lenses
is an important factor for available light photography - would it
be worth investing in "L" series lenses or are there cheaper
alternatives?

thanks for your time!
charleigh
Click to expand...
 
charleigh said:
which cameras have the blown highlight problem?
Click to expand...
Every camera has it, the latitude is not high enough, it's like shooting chrome. The new fuji cameras using the high/low pixel pair should be less prone to blown HL. But I have not tried them. It would take some time to do some proper testing an no one around here would lend me one for that time, especialy since I wont buy any of the currently available models.
charleigh said:
charleigh said:
Till they offer a removable rgb filter, in-camera b&w will only be
a gimick.
Click to expand...
can you explain what you mean by this?
Click to expand...
A gimmick is something you add to a product, or a pitch sale, to get more sales. Am I correct ? My native language is english.

Since the RGB filter is not removable, the sensors can not record luminance values. So the B&W mode is a software implementation. And you have almost no in-camera B&W controls. So it's always better to do it in post. Using a digital camera you should shoot in color and use some digital filter and some curve adjustement to attain the look you want.
charleigh said:
have you used the S2's b&wmode & been unhappy with the results?
Click to expand...
I have a B&W old fashion darkrooom, you know that silver stuff. For me, the in-camera B&W mode is like having to use only one film type and having my film done at the minilab. While it may do a good job you will never get the most out of your photos. So the only road is the digital darkroom.

G. Jobin
 
Well, I see a few reviewers are making a lot of "noise" about the 20D's apparent lack of noise. So I checked. Sure, it's a little quieter than the old Canon 10D and the new Nikon D70. However, its noise figures are nowhere near those of the 2 1/2 year old S2. Example ; Using standard deviation of luminosity as a test standard, at ISO 800, the S2 scored 1.3 sd, verses 2.7 for the 20D and even 3.0 for the old D60.

Going a little further, this means the S2 is as quiet at ISO 800 as the new 20D at ISO 200. A 2 stop advantage for the S2. Fuji did SOMETHING right if it can hang in there for 2.5 years in such a fast paced market. Something to think about. Remember, this is the same upstart Fuji that kicked Kodak's ass when Big Yellow was the film king.

I can't help but think that the S2 will also out resolve the 20D at ISO 800 and above - just like it did to the 20D's big brother. We shall see.

Aside from all that, the 20D is still one awesome camera in many regards - just not that awesome. :^)

Steve Bingham
http://www.dustylens.com
 
I like the the SuperCCD alot. I just don't like the cameras Fuji screws it into. It's really a shame. A waste of talent.
Steve Bingham said:
Well, I see a few reviewers are making a lot of "noise" about the
20D's apparent lack of noise. So I checked. Sure, it's a little
quieter than the old Canon 10D and the new Nikon D70. However, its
noise figures are nowhere near those of the 2 1/2 year old S2.
Example ; Using standard deviation of luminosity as a test
standard, at ISO 800, the S2 scored 1.3 sd, verses 2.7 for the 20D
and even 3.0 for the old D60.

Going a little further, this means the S2 is as quiet at ISO 800 as
the new 20D at ISO 200. A 2 stop advantage for the S2. Fuji did
SOMETHING right if it can hang in there for 2.5 years in such a
fast paced market. Something to think about. Remember, this is the
same upstart Fuji that kicked Kodak's ass when Big Yellow was the
film king.

I can't help but think that the S2 will also out resolve the 20D at
ISO 800 and above - just like it did to the 20D's big brother. We
shall see.

Aside from all that, the 20D is still one awesome camera in many
regards - just not that awesome. :^)

Steve Bingham
http://www.dustylens.com
Click to expand...
 
Anthony said:
I think for the answer to these questions, I must regretfully defer
to the Canon experts. You might want to lurk in the Canon forum
and see what they're saying about the various Canon lenses.

Obviously, the EF-S lenses are designed for digital, but this
limits their usefulness for a film camera.
Click to expand...
Ummm, EF-S lenses won't fit on film cameras at all, nor will they fit on Canon's pro DSLR bodies (presumably Canon hopes to sell consumers the cheaper EF-S lens, and then resell them the more expensive lens when they upgrade).
 
RedDawg said:
l_ombre_jaune said:
I like the the SuperCCD alot. I just don't like the cameras Fuji
screws it into. It's really a shame. A waste of talent.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Agreed--the SuperCCD is an incredible imager. I shot with my S2 this past weeked...what a dismal meter,slow,terrible wait times on the RAWs. After two months shooting the D70,going back to the S2 was an exercise in annoyance. The body of the S3 might be better, but the S2's limited mechanics and poor metrring and lousy flash metering consistency have really left me salivating for a new,more-capable camera BODY. The imager is nice. It's too bad the light meter and exposure control system and exposure compensation system and parameter adjustment systems on the S2 are all so clunky. Half stops and whole stops don't cut it for me any more. I want to work around _ my camera's limitations a lot less frequently. I want a professional-grade camera to support a professional-class sensor. So far, Fuji hasn't lived up to the body end of the equation,as Nikon and Canon are rapidly improving their cameras in every single area, and Fuji keeps limping along with the crippled little N80 chassis.

--
Happy Shooting!
Derrel
 
If Fuji delivers on its promise of the best dynamic range - for your needs the S3 will be the best.

The final image is everything - the camera which can help you produce this the best should be your choice. MPs don't always make the image - how big do you need? How much cropping do you do? Focus speed isn't everything - how fast or those people moving in the portraits?

Sure the other cameras have some things which are better - but if Fuji gives the dynamic range and improves its image quality, which is already, after two years, equal or better than the current crop, the choice should be easy.
 
Steve Bingham said:
Going a little further, this means the S2 is as quiet at ISO 800 as
the new 20D at ISO 200. A 2 stop advantage for the S2.
I can't help but think that the S2 will also out resolve the 20D at
ISO 800 and above - just like it did to the 20D's big brother. We
shall see.
Click to expand...
these comments about relative noise are certainly compelling - so if the fuji came packaged in a better body, it would be an awesome camera!

has phil (or anyone) had a chance to handle the S3 yet? i downloaded a PDF brochure about it & the remodeled body looks very nice - but i wonder how sturdy it would be compared with the canon.

thanks for your time!
charleigh
 
thanks so much! i'm a newbie in this digital world & appreciate your taking the time to explain what you meant.

it sounds like you have a lot of film experience. may i ask if you've used any dSLRs?

thanks for your time!
charleigh
 
derrel, reddawg & others ...
Derrel87035 said:
Agreed--the SuperCCD is an incredible imager. I shot with my S2
this past weeked...what a dismal meter,slow,terrible wait times on
the RAWs. After two months shooting the D70,going back to the S2
was an exercise in annoyance. The body of the S3 might be better,
but the S2's limited mechanics and poor metrring and lousy flash
metering consistency have really left me salivating for a
new,more-capable camera BODY. The imager is nice. It's too bad the
light meter and exposure control system and exposure compensation
system and parameter adjustment systems on the S2 are all so
clunky. Half stops and whole stops don't cut it for me any more. I
want to work around _ my camera's limitations a lot less
frequently. I want a professional-grade camera to support a
professional-class sensor. So far, Fuji hasn't lived up to the body
end of the equation,as Nikon and Canon are rapidly improving their
cameras in every single area, and Fuji keeps limping along with the
crippled little N80 chassis.
Click to expand...
the dilemna continues ... i've heard so much about the S2's awesome images, but it seems like these problems could be a dealbraker. after all, if the canon 20D has a better body, mechanics, metering etc & is better in the noise arena ... does it come down to better handling & good imahge or awesome image but terrible handling. i wish they could get it all in the one package!

thanks for your time!
charleigh
 
charleigh said:
it sounds like you have a lot of film experience. may i ask if
you've used any dSLRs?
Click to expand...
fuji S2 pro

But I do not have a lot of film experience, just enough to see that when doing B&W digital without using the digital darkroom or B&W film without the wet darkroom you/we are missing a lot.

G. Jobin
 
The S2 body about which Derrel writes is something different from the S3, Charleigh. Until the S3 is in peoples' hands, it is very difficult to tell how well it will handle. The AF 'may' be better. The metering 'may' be better... but there are things in the S3's specs that aren't overwhelming. One obvious one is sync speed... which is, nonetheless, an improvement over the S2. Another is D-TTL flash: Nikon's state-of-the-art is I-TTL. So much depends on what you need from and expect of a camera. If you're looking for Nikon F5 handling, quite frankly, I don't think the S3 will be it. Already, the write speeds of the S3's 24MB RAW files will be an obvious limitation. On the other hand, film emulation and S/R on-the-fly adjustability add a new dimension to picture taking.

The 20D will likely be among the best value-oriented cameras launched to date... but who knows what Nikon will be introducing in the weeks ahead... and at what price?

As some in the FSLR forum will know, I'm not a big fan of the S3 as announced. If the S3 is priced at around the same or lower than the 20D, I would say that it offers fair - to good - value. If, as speculated, the S3 will be priced higher than the 20D, if one's needs are latitude over handling, so be it: the S3 is still good value. On the other hand, if handling over latitude is the requirement, the 20D will be the better value. Latitude is great... IF you can get the picture! Of course, by that time, who knows what Nikon will have announced.

I haven't read all the posts in this thread. Apologies if I have duplicated others' comments.

---------------------------
JF really is Uncle Joe
 
"& is better in the noise arena "

But it isn't!

PLEASE, check the noise charts on this site. Take a few minutes and do a little research. You will see the S2 has a 2 stop noise advantage. I mean, study the charts and decide yourself. Take a 1/2 hour and learn something.

Steve Bingham
http://www.dustylens.com
 
sorry steve, i obviously didn't explain myself - i meant that the 20D's noise appears better than its predecessor (the 10D). i've seen the charts & seen the images & there's no doubt that the fuji is a clear leader for great images straight out of the camera - that's why the decision isn't a clear cut one. each camera has its pros & cons & i'm just trying to sort out which will suit me best :)

thanks for your time!
charleigh
 
Hi charleigh

My thoughts dont even go there, neither camera is actually in the store to buy yet and full tests are not yet available to make detailed comparisons.

If you want a camera now, compare what is available and make a decision.

If you want a camera later, save some more money and compare whats available then.

All in the aim of reducing "pre purchase stress" for you :-)

Hope it helps.

--
Mark
Samples & Galleries is just about photographs
Comment plenty please - forums dont thrive on silence :-)
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/forum.asp?forum=1005
 
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