APS-C owners need to let Sony know we care (cont)

[Alupang]

From: http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/55883449

Pieterbaan wrote:

FF is less attractive for people who want to use tele lenses etc, here the smaller the sensor the more tele reach you get out of the same lens.

Wow. You don't get any more reach--it's just cropped. Exactly the same reach if you crop the full frame image.

So with full frame you have the option to crop smaller just like APS-C or NOT.

So there is absolutely no reason to favor APS-C. Ignorance is the only excuse.

Um, sorry to burst your FF rants. Sure FF has some advantages, but so does APS-C. Please stop being rude. When you say things like "Ignorance is the only excuse," it just shows your lack of consideration.

Ignorance is not an insult. I am ignorant about a lot of things and not ashamed to admit it. If you bothered to read all my posts to your original thread, you would understand what I'm talking about. See more comments below please.

1- Cost. Seriously, this is a big one for many of us. I have NO interest in spending $1000-2000+ on a camera body, no matter how much better it is. Amazingly some of the images posted by APS-C owners are just about as good as FF owners. This is no slight to FF cameras, but simply the vast improvements in APS-C technologies.

A FF sensor inside a Nex 5 near-size body wouldn't cost any more than what the Nex 5 originally sold for new.

2- Size. For me this is crucial. While not that much bigger, the A7's are getting just a bit big for me. I loved the original sized NEX-3. Combined with a respectable price and decent image quality I was hooked. I had always been interested in getting better images, but NO interest in DSLR's. My brother in law bought a 3/4's Panasonic and I was intrigued. I found the NEX and was hooked.

Again if you read (been considerate) all my posts you would know I said I wanted FF sensor in a Nex 5 size body. Size is crucial for me too.

The A6000 is still remarkably light and within my size requirements, but anything more than this and I lose interest.

Me too--I just want a larger better sensor in tiny size body.

You see Dave, Sony is using market segmentation and your thread and mindset only makes it easier for them. Heck, even this forum has divided us into carefully planned market segments (APS-C VS FF).

Before it was Canon that forced us to use a toaster sized DSLRs if we wanted superior image quality. It was Sony that disrupted that market segmentation with their tiny APS-C Nex 3 with adaptable mount.

Now Sony wants to fragment their line just like Canon did before. FF in larger more expensive A7x cams and APS-C in their smaller cheaper cameras. It's all BS to me. I want a cheap Nex 5 with a FF sensor--but Sony's market segmentation process is taking hold and molding mindset. Your original thread is proof of that.

I quote Wiki:

Market segmentation is a marketing strategy which involves dividing a broad target market into subsets of consumers, businesses, or countries who have, or are perceived to have, common needs, interests, and priorities, and then designing and implementing strategies to target them.

This is why Sony won't make a FF Nex 5. They make more profit by not offering a product that made Sony successful in the first place.

Please stop making such insulting comments.

Again, ignorance is not an insult. Please try to be considerate by reading more of what I posted before jumping the gun.

 

[MrCPH]

+1 bring on that FF in a nex-5 body Sony, we want it!

 

[dchao]

I agree with Sony. If you want FF, get the A7.

A7 is only 70g heavier than the a6000. And it will balance better with FE lenses.

 

[MrCPH]

I agree with Sony. If you want FF, get the A7.

A7 is only 70g heavier than the a6000. And it will balance better with FE lenses.

Lol, I agree with me. I would like a FF in a nex-5 body. Not in an a6100 or a7 body.

 

[davect01]

+1 bring on that FF in a nex-5 body Sony, we want it!

 

[Riquez]

I agree with Sony. If you want FF, get the A7.

A7 is only 70g heavier than the a6000. And it will balance better with FE lenses.

Lol, I agree with me. I would like a FF in a nex-5 body. Not in an a6100 or a7 body.

RX1 is FF in nex5 size.

 

[MrCPH]

I agree with Sony. If you want FF, get the A7.

A7 is only 70g heavier than the a6000. And it will balance better with FE lenses.

Lol, I agree with me. I would like a FF in a nex-5 body. Not in an a6100 or a7 body.

RX1 is FF in nex5 size.

LOL, try changing out that lens.. ;-)

 

[MrCPH]

+1 bring on that FF in a nex-5 body Sony, we want it!

 

[Alupang]

I agree with Sony. If you want FF, get the A7.

Because a smaller and cheaper (think original Nex 3ish) with a full frame sensor wouldn't be "cool" or "elite pro" or what exactly?

Or you would lose some status if everyone and their little sister were running around with small cheap FF Nex cams? You would not want that right? Wrong?

I'm trying to understand how market segmenting makes you think that Sony should not make a cheap Nex 3 size full frame camera.

A7 is only 70g heavier than the a6000. And it will balance better with FE lenses.

Weight isn't the issue then.

My Nex C3 is quite a bit smaller than the A6000. The A7 is bigger still. We need to turn this ship around we are going the wrong way.

 

[Alupang]

+1 bring on that FF in a nex-5 body Sony, we want it!

 

[davect01]

+1 bring on that FF in a nex-5 body Sony, we want it!

--
MrCPH
- If you think before asking, I'll think before answering.

It would be nice, but you better believe Sony would charge you for the privilege.
--

Why should I better believe? Because FF is reserved only for the deep pocket elite consumer?

It's just a sensor that is larger, not the holy grail. How much more does it cost to make a FF sensor compared to APS-C? Unit cost of an A6000 sensor VS A7 for example, I bet less than $100.

So, why does the A7 cost so much more? Sony knows that people are willing to pay extra for FF and you pay for it. The casing can not cost that much. Perhaps the sensor is more expensive, I do not know.

Sony also sells the RX1 which is fairly comparable in size to the A6000 and has the FF sensor, so it is possible. The RX1 sells for around $1800.00. One can only assume that any A6000 FF variant would cost about the same.

The A7's run about $1800.00-2800.00. Why would you assume that a FF Sensor in a APS-C body would be about the same cost as an APS-C Sensor in a APS-C body.

But "it would be nice" huh? A far cry from your original thread huh?

And we still don't know the future of APS-C. Thus the whole intent of the thread, to let Sony know we are a vibrant community.

--
Novice . Former NEX-3, F3, and 6 . Current proud A6000 owner.
http://davesnex-3photos.blogspot.com/

 

[Pieterbaan]

+1 bring on that FF in a nex-5 body Sony, we want it!

--
MrCPH
- If you think before asking, I'll think before answering.

It would be nice, but you better believe Sony would charge you for the privilege.
--

Why should I better believe? Because FF is reserved only for the deep pocket elite consumer?

It's just a sensor that is larger, not the holy grail. How much more does it cost to make a FF sensor compared to APS-C? Unit cost of an A6000 sensor VS A7 for example, I bet less than $100.

Unfortunately you are wrong. A FF sensor will be about 2.5 times more expensive to create as an APS sensor. This has to do with physics and math. To build sensors you need a wafer. All wafers are the same size. Creating a wafer is exactly as expensive regardless if you have 1 chip on it or 100..

For a start the FF sensor is about twice the size of an APS sensor, so out of the same wafer you can get twice as much APS sensors then you can get FF sensors, so FF sensors are twice as expensive to build then APS Sensors right? No! Wrong! On every wafer there there are a few spots that makes a chip go bad. Lets think of a wafer with 4 bad spots on it. When you can have 24 APS sensors out of that wafer, 4 are bad so you have 20 sensors. Now for FF sensors, you can get 12 sesors out of the same wafer, but 4 are bad, so you will only have 8 usable sensors from the same wafer... That makes a FF sensor so expensive, 2.5 times as expensive in fact (according to this example)!

But there is more, it is called waste, the larger the sensor the more of the wafer get wasted look at this picture:

You can see that a lot more then twice as much sensors on the wafer. There are alomst 4 times as much sensors on the same wafer! making the end result (with 4 bad sensors on every wafer) makes the FF sensor almost 4 times more expensive!

FF is getting cheaper, but APS will allways be the cheapest.

But "it would be nice" huh? A far cry from your original thread huh?

--
There is no God, so let's party!

 

[davect01]

+1 bring on that FF in a nex-5 body Sony, we want it!

--
MrCPH
- If you think before asking, I'll think before answering.

It would be nice, but you better believe Sony would charge you for the privilege.
--

Why should I better believe? Because FF is reserved only for the deep pocket elite consumer?

It's just a sensor that is larger, not the holy grail. How much more does it cost to make a FF sensor compared to APS-C? Unit cost of an A6000 sensor VS A7 for example, I bet less than $100.

Unfortunately you are wrong. A FF sensor will be about 2.5 times more expensive to create as an APS sensor. This has to do with physics and math. To build sensors you need a wafer. All wafers are the same size. Creating a wafer is exactly as expensive regardless if you have 1 chip on it or 100..

I would love to see a build of materials for the various cameras.

For a start the FF sensor is about twice the size of an APS sensor, so out of the same wafer you can get twice as much APS sensors then you can get FF sensors, so FF sensors are twice as expensive to build then APS Sensors right? No! Wrong! On every wafer there there are a few spots that makes a chip go bad. Lets think of a wafer with 4 bad spots on it. When you can have 24 APS sensors out of that wafer, 4 are bad so you have 20 sensors. Now for FF sensors, you can get 12 sesors out of the same wafer, but 4 are bad, so you will only have 8 usable sensors from the same wafer... That makes a FF sensor so expensive, 2.5 times as expensive in fact (according to this example)!

But there is more, it is called waste, the larger the sensor the more of the wafer get wasted look at this picture:

You can see that a lot more then twice as much sensors on the wafer. There are alomst 4 times as much sensors on the same wafer! making the end result (with 4 bad sensors on every wafer) makes the FF sensor almost 4 times more expensive!

FF is getting cheaper, but APS will allways be the cheapest.

But "it would be nice" huh? A far cry from your original thread huh?

--
There is no God, so let's party!

--
Novice photobug. Former NEX-3, F3, and 6 owner. Current proud A6000 owner.

photos A6000

Place where I post my photos

davesnex-3photos.blogspot.com

 

[nuzzart]

First a full disclosure - I have a NEX-5N, purchased with a Minolta MC/MD adapter when there were just a few lens. Since then I have added the 19mm and 30mm Sigma lens along with a couple additional Minolta Rokkor lens.

I have no interest in upgrading to the Full-Frame models/lens - not only due to cost and/or size but also the APS-C sensor meets my needs. The NEX-5N is a great little camera. The two features it is missing is an EVF (yes I know I can add one) and IBIS so I am hoping that the rumors turn out to be true. Eventually I will replace it but I am in no hurry.

I hope Sony does not drop the APS-C format but if they do I will probably end up moving elsewhere. From my point of view, the problem is not new lens but instead camera bodies. I tend to think lens change slowly. It is the camera body technology that is changing rapidly. Right now Sony has the best camera bodies available (both FF and APS-C) but if for the next couple of years they focus is only FF and there is no refresh of the APS-C bodies, other brands will pass them up. I don't work for Sony so I don't really know what they will do but it does seem odd that APS-C was not mentioned at all.

In any case, for now I'll stay with my NEX-5N and watch where it goes.

 

[davect01]

First a full disclosure - I have a NEX-5N, purchased with a Minolta MC/MD adapter when there were just a few lens. Since then I have added the 19mm and 30mm Sigma lens along with a couple additional Minolta Rokkor lens.

There are many that are obsessed with buying a new lens every week and then discussing every fine detail about it. This is fine if this is you, but many of us simply want useable lenses at reasonable prices.

I have no interest in upgrading to the Full-Frame models/lens - not only due to cost and/or size but also the APS-C sensor meets my needs. The NEX-5N is a great little camera. The two features it is missing is an EVF (yes I know I can add one) and IBIS so I am hoping that the rumors turn out to be true. Eventually I will replace it but I am in no hurry.

I too have stated I have no interest in the extra cost FF brings. I enjoy the combination brought about by the NEX; size, price and image quality.

I hope Sony does not drop the APS-C format but if they do I will probably end up moving elsewhere. From my point of view, the problem is not new lens but instead camera bodies. I tend to think lens change slowly. It is the camera body technology that is changing rapidly. Right now Sony has the best camera bodies available (both FF and APS-C) but if for the next couple of years they focus is only FF and there is no refresh of the APS-C bodies, other brands will pass them up. I don't work for Sony so I don't really know what they will do but it does seem odd that APS-C was not mentioned at all.

In any case, for now I'll stay with my NEX-5N and watch where it goes.

I am more than happy with my A6000, and plan on keeping it for many years. My concern is 5 years from now will there be anything available.

 

[Alupang]

The A7's run about $1800.00-2800.00.

You can buy a brand new A7 on ebay right now all day long for under $1000.

Why would you assume that a FF Sensor in a APS-C body would be about the same cost as an APS-C Sensor in a APS-C body.

I just guessing that by now, a FF sensor cost/worth about $100 more than an APS-C sensor.

Sony should be able to make a Nex 5 FF for around $700 retail. Heck we got A7s under $1000 today...

 

[davect01]

The A7's run about $1800.00-2800.00.

You can buy a brand new A7 on ebay right now all day long for under $1000.

Ebay is not the official price. I love Ebay, but don't use it to quote what the price is.

Sony is having a sale right now on the original A7 for $999.99, but the original price was $1699.99. Older models usually get clearance priced when newer ones come out. The A7ii is still $1699.99 and the A7s is still $2499.99.

The A99 and RX1 both have the same FF sensor and are selling for $1999.99 for the A99 and $2799.99

There is NO FF camera from Sony that started off for less than $1699.99.

http://store.sony.com/professional-capability/cat-27-catid-all-alpha-pro-capability

http://store.sony.com/professional-capability/cat-27-catid-All-Cyber-shot-R-Series-Cameras

Why would you assume that a FF Sensor in a APS-C body would be about the same cost as an APS-C Sensor in a APS-C body.

I just guessing that by now, a FF sensor cost/worth about $100 more than an APS-C sensor.

Sony should be able to make a Nex 5 FF for around $700 retail. Heck we got A7s under $1000 today...

Again this is simply your estimation supported by NO facts whatsoever. There is no rumor or statement of ANY kind that this is even being thought of. I would be TOTALLY happy if this came to pass, but seriously doubt it due to the trends Sony already has in place.

Again NO FF camera has been originally sold by Sony for less than $1699.99.

--
Novice . Former NEX-3, F3, and Current proud A6000 owner.
http://davesnex-3photos.blogspot.com/

 

[Marti58]

Business decisions based on global sales figures, any business will do that.

The rumor sites are confusing people's mind.

Enjoy what you use today.

--
*All my Post Processing is done with Capture NX2*
Flickr Photo's
Galleries on DPR

 

[davelok]

I quote Wiki:

Market segmentation is a marketing strategy which involves dividing a broad target market into subsets of consumers, businesses, or countries who have, or are perceived to have, common needs, interests, and priorities, and then designing and implementing strategies to target them.

Yes, that's how you offer products best suited to a specific market rather than throwing the same catch-all solutions everywhere, hoping that something will stick somewhere.

This does not mean divide and rule. This means making better usage of resources - sales channels, manufacturing capacity, designing capability, working capital, and management bandwidth.

However, there will always be a tradeoff between finer segmentation and operating efficiency, considering the same factors as above. A successful management is one that is able to measure and predict demand, design a product, and produce and deliver it more accurately and faster than others, while ensuring that it does not get stuck into niches, but opens up future growth opportunities.

If they don't measure up, somebody else who is more nimble and foresighted will walk up and eat their lunch.

Marketing isn't evil, inherently. It is just about bringing demand and supply together.

This is why Sony won't make a FF Nex 5. They make more profit by not offering a product that made Sony successful in the first place.

If a large enough market exists for them to do it, they'll eventually come around to agreeing with your opinion. Keep up your efforts.

 

[Alupang]

Business decisions based on global sales figures, any business will do that.

How does that explain Canon's mirrorless strategy and offerings to date?

The rumor sites are confusing people's mind.

I don't read those. Are there rumors of a full frame Nex 5? I don't know of any.

Perhaps this thread is causing Google hits on key words--now that is really amusing if true.

Enjoy what you use today.

Yes, I still enjoy my tiny Nex C3 and Canon nFD legacy glass. But of course I would like a larger sensor in a small form factor. RX1 proves it's possible--just need to get an E mount screwed on of course.

How about you? I see from your gear list you enjoy using small cameras. Would you like to see a full frame Nex 5 size camera that is more affordable than A7? You think many would buy such a camera?

I know I would.

--
*All my Post Processing is done with Capture NX2*
Flickr Photo's
Galleries on DPR