War Photographers - Let's not forget the dangers [link to PIC]

I'm going to bed. You know as much about me as I know about you: what we have both written. I live in Atlanta, if you want to have lunch sometime, I'll buy.

BTW, "pinhead" is not "pretty nasty."

I'd say the small arms insults are about even.

'nite
I'm curious about your background. How hold are you? Where you
from, what do you do? What's your education? I'm not asking this
out of anger of frustration. I'm just curious. This has become a
very personal thread. Just want to know who I'm talking with. It'd
also be nice to know who's slamming me so much. Dude, you have been
pretty nasty -- not that it bugs me.
--
[email protected]
http://www.50mm.net
 
Fair enough. I'm getting pretty tired, too. I really mean no disrepect. I just have very different opinions. I'm in Cleveland, but don't hold that against me. I'd be happy to do lunch if I make to Alanta any time soon. Sleep well my fellow American.
BTW, "pinhead" is not "pretty nasty."

I'd say the small arms insults are about even.

'nite
I'm curious about your background. How hold are you? Where you
from, what do you do? What's your education? I'm not asking this
out of anger of frustration. I'm just curious. This has become a
very personal thread. Just want to know who I'm talking with. It'd
also be nice to know who's slamming me so much. Dude, you have been
pretty nasty -- not that it bugs me.
--
[email protected]
http://www.50mm.net
 
TomF:

I can't believe you wrote that entire essay to point out the oh-so obvious.

Nobody is argiung that Saddam needs to go. He's not doing anything for his people, his country, or the world. One might however argue what business it is of the USA to take him out...

What I'm saying, is why do we have to level an entire country to get one DA*n man? PLUS, we probably won't even "get" him, or really ever know. It's so ridiculous. Where do we stop? We going to clear out and drop a few nukes over there, just to kill one old man?

Finally, your long essay was fundamentally flawed as you paralled a situation where the neighbors rooted out the bad seed. However, with Saddam and Iraq, none of the neighbors over there are doing a darn thing. Turkey would not even cooperate with the effort. France and Germany told us to jump in a lake. Iran .. nothing. Syria .. probably helping Iraq. Russia .. naddia. USA and the Brits .. wow big surprise. I suppose we are also the self appointed brain powers of the world, as well as military powers.

Your tiresome story does not even apply here. This is not the neighbors taking out the regime, it's the US, from w-a-y over here in the west. Why? One must wonder. What else can be gained by doing this?

Let me tell you this: America's support would drop off pretty darn fast if we could really see what's happening to the innocent civilians over there. Like this boy, burnt to a crisp with no arms and no family left. There's your bunker buster, precision guided with a 20ms fuse delay. yippee.

This does not cut it over here in the land of the family. I'm sorry, but it does not cut it with me, father of two. Again, no sacrifice for the better of the whole, is worth that sh*t!

rm
mccance,

No I haven't lived my life living under a rock. And I don't think
of myslef as narrow minded. But, I guess that's your opinion. I'm
not hear to take jabs at anyone. I haven't said anything derogatory....
 
I know you went to bed. But just in case you read this later, I want you to know that just before I looged off, I saw the story you mentioned earlier -- the absolute tragedy that happened to the poor boy. Yes, without question, it left me shaken. However, I hold Hussein responsible. His action led his country to war and the horrific consequences -- if only Saddam had given unrestricted access to UN weapon inspectors, something he promised but evaded for 12 years. None of this would have happened.
 
I would love to be there taking pictures. If I died doing it, I would hope that someone would pick up my camera and publish my pictures. I wonder what the last picture on the camera was.

I wonder what the journalist who took the picture was thinking....

--
Canon 10D, bag includes 100mm Macro, 70-200mm L, 17-35mm L, 50mm f/1.8.
 
yeah, it was a long essay -- a bit too long and probably too simplistic. I almost didn't post it. What I was trying to say was obvious, but by design. it seems like the obvious is often missed in these forums. So, I thought I'd be obvious. Kinda like "War is never right," posted by others. Was it a perfect comparison? No. But it does illustrate that different neighbors (countries) near and far will have different reactions to the crimes of others. I happen to fell that the Bush administration is doing the right thing for the right reasons. Watching coverage of civilians certainly makes an immediate impact on most of us -- turning us from rationale to emotional.

I, too, imagined that poor boy being my son. But I also imagine my son as one of the 400,000 children that we didn't witness starve to death Iraq will its government built lavish palaces for one Mr. Hussein. I also see my wife in the countless women raped by Hussein's regime -- in fact Saddam's own son is a know rapist and murderer. This is not US propoganda. Hopefully, Iraq will actually be liberated and the ongoing rapes, murders and starvations will cease.

We live in scary times. There are many other nations like some of the ones you named who alos pose significant challenges and threats. But that ball was rolling before we attacked Iraq.
 
I was curious how many posts this pic would create and how soon the polital "strategery" would come out. I think it's great that so many people are self-deluded and the situation and the the facts.

D*mn Dirty Hippies

Nobody here appear to work any form of security counsels or have access to ALL the info. So i'm curious how people can form solid opinions on this topic and run with it.

I notice a some "facts" being toss around you hippies need to do more reading on the topic. 400,000 kids were not killed as per the IRAQI government. The extremist muslims ALREADY** hate us. Isreal and Palistine both suck and lastly there will only one Osama Bin Laden. Lastly UN policy did not kill the thousands of people Saddam did. I have a coworker who is an ex-army night stalker who spent years in the middle east... OPEC has money coming out their A$$. Kuwaities-natives are taken care for life, you don't see the normal Iraqi living the same way. The Saddam regime is a GANG and ultimately force is the only thing they understand.

Ultimately, we can all agree Saddem is a bad guy and the world is better without him around. I do Apologize to all the poor people we have killed or will die this

OT - I have a job where I can spend most of my time browsing the web and chatting with ex-militery coworkers. Here is some good reading.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/885222.asp?vts=031620031910
http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/03/Apr/peacenik.html
 
We can envision a world were every child is taught that murder and
killing is horrendous. I think that it is clear that in this
scenario the world really could be peaceful.
We can also envision a world where unicorns roam free and magic
reigns supreme. That does not mean it is possible.

As noble as your ideals are, they are indicative of utopian
naivete. Dreaming about it won't make it happen when it goes
against the basically selfish and perverted nature of humanity. I
wish what you envision could become reality, but the hard fact is
that such a world will never exist.
There's room for both idealism and pragmatism.

Idealism shows you states we should strive for, but doesn't say anything about how to achieve that state. While a utopia is unattainable, that doesn't mean it's an invalid goal. You just need to try to achieve something as close to the ideal as possible.

Pragmatism deals with processes. How do you get from one state to another? It doesn't tell you what states are good to strive for. While some processes are unpalatable (e.g. war), if they end up arriving at a state much improved from where you began, they are often worth it.

The two work together to change the world for the better. Do not make the mistake of using only idealism to critique a process, nor only pragmatism to critique a state.
 
Interesting thesis. However, you're starting with a flawed assumption - that you've identified the (or at least one) cause of war (desire for profit), and by minimizing it you can minimize war.

Unfortunately, that theory doesn't hold water statistically. In fact very few do. Lewis Fry Richardson tried to analyze wars mathematically and the conclusion he came up with was that war is almost a random phenomenon. There is very little correlation between most of the causes of war suggested by historians and actual wars (yes, economics was one of the factors he considered). LF Richardson isn't some crackpot either, he was a mathemetician whose work contributed greatly to modern weather forecasting models, as well as provided insight which Mandelbrot used to discover what eventually became fractals.

http://www.americanscientist.org/Issues/Comsci02/Compsci2002-01.html
 
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=1514&e=4&u=/afp/20030408/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_war_marines_prison_030408163048
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/030408/241/3qq1r.html&e=13&ncid=705

I saw this link and reflect on what is going on down in Iraq.
War is F*CKED no matter just or not. I can appreciate what people
will do to bring us a story or image. My first reaction to the
image was "Wow, thats an 1D with [insert lense]. " I totally
forgot the poor camera guy could mortally wound. Sooooo, in
reflection I guess we should all be thankful for what we have or
even don't.

Don't forget the people involved is this mess.

Just thinking out loud, sorry I could not come up with more
elequent or heartful thought...

[Yes, I argee the Regime is "bad"]
 
I like the MSNBC article too. It is very enlightening and It wouldn't hurt that our current administration takes some advice from it.
I was curious how many posts this pic would create and how soon the
polital "strategery" would come out. I think it's great that so
many people are self-deluded and the situation and the the facts.

D*mn Dirty Hippies

Nobody here appear to work any form of security counsels or have
access to ALL the info. So i'm curious how people can form solid
opinions on this topic and run with it.

I notice a some "facts" being toss around you hippies need to
do more reading on the topic. 400,000 kids were not killed as per
the IRAQI government. The extremist muslims ALREADY** hate us.
Isreal and Palistine both suck and lastly there will only one Osama
Bin Laden. Lastly UN policy did not kill the thousands of people
Saddam did. I have a coworker who is an ex-army night stalker who
spent years in the middle east... OPEC has money coming out their
A$$. Kuwaities-natives are taken care for life, you don't see the
normal Iraqi living the same way. The Saddam regime is a GANG and
ultimately force is the only thing they understand.

Ultimately, we can all agree Saddem is a bad guy and the world is
better without him around. I do Apologize to all the poor people we
have killed or will die this

OT - I have a job where I can spend most of my time browsing the
web and chatting with ex-militery coworkers. Here is some good
reading.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/885222.asp?vts=031620031910
http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/03/Apr/peacenik.html
 
The death of any innocent is a sad thing. However in this case we
need to remember that all the reporters in Baghdad had been told to
get out.
Yeah, this was the reason for the attack, kill some journalists and the others will likely flee from Baghdad. So there are no more independent, not embeddeted eye-witnesses.

Urban warfare is not clean and the Iraqi's have
established a pattern of using civilians to hide military activity.
In this case US forces apparently were fired at by people in or
near the building and the US forces thought that a spotter in the
building was directing artillery fire at the US forces.
This is a lie.

Journalist and international journalist organizations reported that the US Army deliberately targeted journalists.

This is from a statement of the well known international organization "Reporters Without Borders":

"Film shot by the French TV station France 3 and descriptions by journalists show the neighbourhood was very quiet at that hour and that the US tank crew took their time, waiting for a couple of minutes and adjusting its gun before opening fire."

"This evidence does not match the US version of an attack in self-defence and we can only conclude that the US Army deliberately and without warning targeted journalists."

"We are concerned at the US army's increasingly hostile attitude towards journalists, especially those non-embedded in its military units. Army officials have also remained deplorably silent and refused to give any details about what happened when a British ITN TV crew was fired on near Basra on 22 March, killing one journalist and leaving two others missing."

From:
http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=5975

And what is with the bombing of the well known office of Al-Jazeera TV?
Freedom of speech? Freedom of the press?
See:
http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=5945

It is against all international laws to target journalists, it is against the Geneva convention, it is a war crime! I hope that these criminals, soldiers and the politicians behind them, will be taken to court.
Yes, I know, I am a bit naive.

Wolfgang
 
...Iraqis who have had no choice over their destinies. I was against the Viet Nam war and am for this one. The military has shown great discretion and restraint in this war and should be commended. Nevertheless, many people will be unintentionally hurt and we are doing our reasonable best to care for the wounded. I almost retch when I see that boy with the missing arms on TV and realize that is the tip of the iceberg of pain and suffering. Blessings to the photographers who are documenting this war.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/030408/241/3qq1r.html&e=13&ncid=705

I saw this link and reflect on what is going on down in Iraq.
War is F*CKED no matter just or not. I can appreciate what people
will do to bring us a story or image. My first reaction to the
image was "Wow, thats an 1D with [insert lense]. " I totally
forgot the poor camera guy could mortally wound. Sooooo, in
reflection I guess we should all be thankful for what we have or
even don't.

Don't forget the people involved is this mess.

Just thinking out loud, sorry I could not come up with more
elequent or heartful thought...

[Yes, I argee the Regime is "bad"]

--

'Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without an accordian.' Jed Babbin 1/30/03
 
Tell that to the kid with no arms, mom, dad or sister, dipwadd. I'm
sure he'll understand.
IGNORANCE!

It's ignorant respones like this that I find sad. Yes, of course,
it's horrible that people are dying and being mangled in the war.
But far more lives are being saved.... "Tell that to the kid..."
Are you serious? What should have been said to the 60,000 people
Hussein gased in 1986 in Halabja? What should have been said to the
million Iraqi soilders sacraficed by Hussein when he waged war
against Iran (just as many Iranians died)? And how about the
thousands of Kuwait killed by the Iraqi army invasion just over a
decade years ago? What do you tell them?

I guess the world should stand by and do nothing more than
excercise diplomacy. (yeah, diplomacy with a guy who shoots a gun
in the air during every other public sppech.) Diplomacy never
worked. From the moment Hussein's army retreated from Kuwait over a
decade ago, he refused to meet rational terms set by the UN. 16 UN
resolutions and numerous sanctions later, he was still hiding
banned weapons. Moreover, he continued to use terror and inhumanity
to run his country -- while at the same time various European
countries continued to court questionable business deals with the
regime.

So, I ask you, what do you tell the families of the thousands
killed by Hussein's regime? Do you tell them, "Sorry, we are going
to continue playing diplomatic games with him because we're affraid
we might hurt one child in an effort to stop a regime that has
killed thousands, a regime that has been proven (not suspected) to
support terrorists, a regime that is responsible for starving to
death hundreds of thousands of children?" Get real.
--
beam me up scotty

im giving it all shes got captain
 
Name mccance
E-mail Click here to send this user an email.
Location United States / Orange Park, FL
Profession Loafing
Homepage http://www.50mm.net
Plan Get rich.

sums up mccanes existance ... proffesion =loafing
"Tell that to the kid with no arms, mom, dad or sister, dipwadd.
I'm sure he'll understand."

Watch CNN long enough and you'll see the segment. (miraculously,
between all the purple heart announcements) Could that toasted,
armless, familyless 12 yr old be your son? Would you care? Guess
not.

You and the other deathmonger thread buddy can wallow in the
various propaganda BS all you want. And, I'm sure you will.

The fact is, if a regime change needs to take place, and certain
evil people need to be killed, for the betterment of the rest of
the world's community, there certainly must be a better way than
dropping four 4,000lb bunker buster bombs onto a residential
building where you think this one asswhipe is hiding.

Wow, what sophistication, what intelligence: About like yours and
your buddy's on this thread.

You two are pethetic if you think killing/maiming innocent young
people can ever be justified, under ANY circumstances. Nobody did
this to you and you're still here, spouting off, getting FAT and
typing with all ten of your chubby fingers....crying about your
precious little cameras. And playing armchair politician.

Geeze.
Tell that to the kid with no arms, mom, dad or sister, dipwadd. I'm
sure he'll understand.
IGNORANCE!

It's ignorant respones like this that I find sad. Yes, of course,
it's horrible that people are dying and being mangled in the war.
But far more lives are being saved.... "Tell that to the kid..."
Are you serious? What should have been said to the 60,000 people
Hussein gased in 1986 in Halabja? What should have been said to the
million Iraqi soilders sacraficed by Hussein when he waged war
against Iran (just as many Iranians died)? And how about the
thousands of Kuwait killed by the Iraqi army invasion just over a
decade years ago? What do you tell them?

I guess the world should stand by and do nothing more than
excercise diplomacy. (yeah, diplomacy with a guy who shoots a gun
in the air during every other public sppech.) Diplomacy never
worked. From the moment Hussein's army retreated from Kuwait over a
decade ago, he refused to meet rational terms set by the UN. 16 UN
resolutions and numerous sanctions later, he was still hiding
banned weapons. Moreover, he continued to use terror and inhumanity
to run his country -- while at the same time various European
countries continued to court questionable business deals with the
regime.

So, I ask you, what do you tell the families of the thousands
killed by Hussein's regime? Do you tell them, "Sorry, we are going
to continue playing diplomatic games with him because we're affraid
we might hurt one child in an effort to stop a regime that has
killed thousands, a regime that has been proven (not suspected) to
support terrorists, a regime that is responsible for starving to
death hundreds of thousands of children?" Get real.
--
[email protected]
http://www.50mm.net
--
beam me up scotty

im giving it all shes got captain
 
hidden in syria along with saddam and his honchos
I have done my research. Have you done yours? So what is the answer
to Hussein? You can't just say "War is not the answer" when you
have no suggetions. How do you stop evil people from being evil?
Why don't you hear anyone talking about the WMD anylonger ? Nice
coverup. Did it now become a non-issue ? Isn't this why this war
was started in the first place ? It is time that Bush is going to
show some evidence of these weapons...that evidence "might" give
you a safer future....

We must kill to save lives
We must wage war for peace
We must use weapons of mass destruction to eliminate weapons of
mass destruction
We come in peace; we will kill the enemy
We will liberate Iraq; we will occupy Iraq
We want to protect Iraq by disarming it
We will install democracy in Iraq
We are circumventing the UN to uphold UN resolutions
The war is going as planned --it might take longer than expected
Surgical strikes kill innocents
Bin Laden is a freedom-fighter (1980s); Bin laden is a terrorist
(2001)
Saddam is a ally (during Iran-Iraq war); Saddam is an enemy (post
Iran-Iraq war)
--
beam me up scotty

im giving it all shes got captain
 
After reading the several posts from our "enlightened" contributors from the European continent I've finally come to see what actually is happening. 50/1.4 was in on the conspiracy and has confirmed in an earlier post that what follows is accurate:

The US Ministry of Propaganda is orchestrating this entire scenario [the war against Iraq] at a Hollywood studio. Bush and Cheney are pulling the strings all the while their corporate bedfellows are getting rich. The USA secretly orchestrated the **** holocaust in order to justify our imperialistic agenda in Western Europe. Pearl Harbor was an elaborate ruse perpetrated by the scheming Roosevelt to extend our "empire" further West. And finally 911 was actually a bunch of JEWS who control the US Ministry of Propaganda who sacrificed themselves for the greater good of Israel and Zionism. The JEWS are responsible for all of the evils in the world, but nobody can see it. Meanwhile, only the enlightened intelligenzia from the Western European continent are "sophisticated" enough to appreciate this. Their peace-at-any-price is the ONLY reasonable agenda possible under the circumstances. Can't you all see it. Any SINGLE death in war is far more offensive than tens of thousands dying under a sham sovereign regime. Now, if only the Europeans could implement their final solution that they tried so hard to do in the 30's and 40's we could finally have peace in the world.

Oh, and by all means, keep importing radicalized Muslims into your midsts in Europe because after all Islam means Peace!

50/1.4: You are correct Burke...In the 60's I was in charge of......printing faked telephone books from every city and village in Germany from the 1920's and 1930's. I inserted Jewish names into the books so as to provide a contrast to the paucity of Jewish names post World War II in the phone books from the same cities and villages to prove there was a Holocaust. I dug up Germans who died in the 20's and 30's to put their fingerprints on the books to "authenticate" them. Had to use the right paper and inks...but it worked!!! And, yes, I used CANON SLR's to help me with my work.

--

'The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.' Edmund Burke

Burke Churchill
 
you wouldnt know wmd from your backside and you still wouldnt see it if

wmd was injected up your rear ... you just dont get it
There have been clear signs of WMD. Hell, even a top Iraqi
scientist who defected gave detailed information of the WMD and the
regime's moblie labs. Other military defectors have verified this,
so have satellite photos, etc....
Clear signs ???? What the h*ll are signs ?

Where is the evidence my friend ?

Show me a desert full with WMD etc., where are they, it was so
convincing that a war had to be started over it...

This is what your government is fighting for, a world of peace,
because those weapons can be used against us all.

I for one haven't seen a d*mn thing, neither did you.....and the
rest of all humans on this planet haven't either.

So if they are not to be found, we are still at the same risk.
Or will you be calibrating that Iraqee people are "free".
--
beam me up scotty

im giving it all shes got captain
 

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